trinities 370 - Dr. Steven Nemes's formal challenge to Trinity theories
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- čas přidán 25. 09. 2023
- trinities.org/blog/podcast-37... The thing about objecting to Trinity theories is that they are many and different, and generally speaking mutually inconsistent, so that an objection which applies to one Trinity theory will not apply to others.
But in chapter 3 of his new book Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology, Dr. Steven Nemes gives a destructive tetralemma argument which applies to Trinity theories generally. This argument appeals only to the idea of ontological priority, then asking questions about the one ousia (substance, essence, nature) and the three hypostases (“Persons”): is (1) the ousia prior to the hypostases, or (2) are the hypostases prior to the ousia, or (3) are these all distinct but none is “before” or “after” any other, or (4) are the ousia and the hypostases not distinct (and so none is “before” or “after” any other)?
These are arguably all the options. But whichever way the trinitarian turns, it looks like his choice results in inconsistency with something else he’s committed to, such as divine simplicity or divine “processions.”
Dr. Nemes in effect is issuing a challenge to catholic theologians: how can you pick one of those four options and yet not contradict other theses to which you’re committed?
At the end of the episode, we discuss another argument, which is a 2-case dilemma. Does the divine nature imply or include tripersonality, or not? Either way, there would seem to serious problems for the trinitarian!
Links for this episode @ trinities.org/blog/podcast-37...
Dr. Nemes’s homepage
Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology
Orthodoxy and Heresy
Theological Authority in the Church: Reconsidering Traditionalism and Hierarchy
Theology of the Manifest: Christianity without Metaphysics
Eating Christ’s Flesh: A Case for Memorialism
podcast 355 - Dr. Steven Nemes on Trinity theories - Part 2
podcast 354 - Dr. Steven Nemes on Trinity theories - Part 1
Brower and Rea, “Material Constitution and the Trinity“
Tuggy, “Constitution Trinitarianism: An Appraisal“
Tuggy, “Divine deception, identity, and Social Trinitarianism“
Tuggy, “Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection“ (on arguments that if there is one divine Person then there must be exactly three)
This week’s thinking music is “PHENIX” by Koi-Discovery.
Weekly podcast exploring views about the Trinity, and more generally about God and Jesus in Christian theology and philosophy. Debates, interviews, and historical and contemporary perspectives. Hosted by philosopher of religion / analytic theologian Dr. Dale Tuggy.
This week's thinking music is "PHENIX" by Koi-Discovery. freemusicarchive.org/music/ko...
These Dr. Steven Nemes videos are in the top 5 all time best refutations of Trinity theory!
In 2,000 years people will still be studying St. Thomas Aquinas, and nobody will even know that Dr. Steven Nemes ever existed.
Does anyone know the name of the Spanish music?
Not sure what you mean by does the Divine Nature imply or include Tripersonality?
I think a better Question would be does the Divine Nature Imply Relationship/Love?
As a non-Christian believer in Jesus Christ I can’t imagine that Christ or his disciples would spend so much attention and focus on semantics and classification schemes in order to spread the gospel…
How would a trinitarian deal with the scripture that says baby Jesus was the fruit of David's loins (Act 2:30) and the lack of scripture that Mary was anything other than a Levite (Luke 1:5, 36)? If God was the father how is Jesus the offspring of David (Rev 22:16)?
to the former, probably that it is symbolic. not wrong to do; unis have to do the same with some passages
So I did a google books search in his book for "perichoresis" and "circumincession" and it turned up zero hits. I hope this was just a failure on google's part, or on my ability to use the search tool properly. Because if these words really aren't in the book, it's not worth the paper it's printed on, and neither is Nemes' degree.
try a history search for perichoresis before 1000 ad
It is easier for a camel to walk though the eye of a needle than for a PhD to enter the Kingdom of God.
No trinity exists. Jesus is ONLY WITH THE FATHER, as crystal clear disclosed by the gospels. The reason is that the Holy Spirit is not a THIRD divine person. If a third person existed, that person would be mentioned by Jesus together with the Father. But this does not happen, i.e. this means that third person does NOT EXIST, in fact neither the Holy Spirit nor the Spirit of Truth are THIRD PERSONS.
Jesus is ready to go to heaven and promises that He will come to comfort the apostles "I will come to you". However - from the context - you can figure out that this won't happen in flesh and bones, i.e. from time to time Jesus will go to the apostles, but in the FORM OF A SPIRIT.
You can call Him the "Spirit of Jesus". Thus, you have Jesus (in heaven) and the "Spirit of Jesus", the Father and the "Spirit of the Father" ("Spirit of your Father", helping the apostles when speaking), God and the Spirit of God (aka Holy Spirit). The Spirit of God is thus simply the SAME GOD (almighty) who is a spirit, NOT A THIRD PERSON. EVERYTHING is carried out by that Spirit here on earth, NOT PERSONALLY by God (see the gospels): "God is a spirit" Jn. 4:24. Thus, the Spirit of God is actually originated by God who is away "No man has seen God at any time.". The Spirit of God dealt with Mary's pregnancy, spoke when Jesus was baptized, led Jesus into the desert, later helped Him in speaking too. He also helped the apostles.
Fortunately when you read John this isn’t the case, Jesus is identified as the Logos who takes on flesh. Right?
later in John 14:16-17 He implies that he is a paraclete and that the spirit is a paraclete as well. Thus the two divine individuals apart from The Father are the Logos and Spirit.
Another argument against this is Matthew 28:19 the baptismal formula. To baptize in the three implies an actual reality of the three especially concerning the spirit. The verse doesn’t say Baptize in Gods name through me (like a sorta agent) but Baptize in the name of the Three. Of course the Bible isn’t going to say they are all ontologically equal, co eternal, of the same substance bc it’s written for an audience who already knows this. Given what scholars say about the dating of the Gospels.
@@Sosarchives
The stupid youtube algorithm is blocking my reply.
@@Sosarchives
I hope this response is allowed:
(Please note that the Helper - to be identified here - is the apostles' Helper, not the God's Helper).
Jesus tells the apostles "I will come to you". But of course that will not happen in FLESH AND BONES! "I am going to the Father and you will NO LONGER SEE me". Jesus will come to the apostles, but in the "LIMITED form of a SPIRIT" (i.e. Jesus will just be "talking inside" - into the mind - of the apostles). You can call Him the "Spirit of Jesus". You thus have 1. Jesus in heaven and 2. the "Spirit of Jesus" with the apostles, however they are not TWO Persons! Just ONE MIND, ONE PERSON! NOBODY is there with the apostles, the words are actually spoken by Jesus who is in heaven, his Spirit just REPEATS them. About the same occurs with 1. the Father and 2. the "Spirit of the Father" (aka Spirit of God aka Holy Spirit)...ONE MIND! They are not TWO persons as maintained by the trinity doctrine.
To recap, both the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of the Father ("Spirit of your Father") will come to the apostles, as confirmed here “If anyone [really] loves Me, he will keep My word (teaching); and My Father will love him, and WE WILL COME TO HIM and make Our dwelling place with him."
The two Spirits are together the "Spirit of Truth".
Thus, the "Spirit of Truth" - who is the apostles' Helper - is not a third PERSON, He is a SPIRIT (or two, or more). This means NOBODY is actually there with the apostles, the Spirit hasn't got his own mind. Therefore He "will not speak on his own" but just REPEAT words: "what he hears [from the Father and the Son] he will reveal".
@@claudiozanella256 What you’re arguing here is just really a strong Filioque 😂
@@Sosarchives
Negative. Jesus tells that the Helper is the Holy Spirit just to be understood by the apostles. But then He goes on and calls Him "the Spirit of truth". Why to call the Holy Spirit "Spirit of Truth" when He actually is the Holy Spirit?. The reason is that the Spirit of Truth is not exactly the Holy Spirit, He also includes the Spirit of Jesus and maybe the Spirit of someone else. The Father, the Son and maybe the spirit of someone else will come to help the illitterate apostles.