Questioning the Trinity with Steven Nemes
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- Dr. Steven Nemes has a PhD from Fuller Theological Seminary. His work focuses on a phenomenological approach to reading scripture and constructing theology. In this interview Sean Finnegan asks him about his unique approach to evaluating doctrine, especially the Trinity, from a phenomenological perspective. They discuss restorationism as a common ground and delve into Church history extensively. In the end Dr. Nemes argues for freedom rather than dogma when evaluating various doctrines related to the Trinity.
For more information about Steven Nemes, see stevennemes.com/curriculum-vi...
For more information about Sean Finnegan, see restitutio.org/sean-finnegans...
Questions for this Interview
1. Most people know what systematic theology is--simply the categorizing of doctrines or beliefs--but most don't know what phenomenology is. Can you offer a brief explanation?
2. A lot of your work focuses on reading scripture. Why did you decide to focus on the phenomenology of reading the bible?
3. Let's talk about the Trinity. When I listened to your interview with Dale Tuggy in September you listed off a whole series of problems with the Trinity. Then he asked you, "Well, why do you still believe in it?" You replied because it's hard to disprove one ousia in 3 subsistences. Now, however, you no longer identify as a trinitarian. What changed?
4. You mentioned Mark Edwards' book, Catholicity and Heresy that what the Gnostics did--hypostatizing attributes of God like wisdom, spirit, mind, etc.--influenced Nicene reasoning. Could you talk more about that?
5. You've recently been making a public case for unitarian theology and christology, what has prompted that?
6. It seems like you’re a fan of the Polish Brethren and specifically, their book The Racovian Catechism. What drew you to this work? Would you identify as a Socinian?
7. Tell me about your book, Orthodoxy and Heresy. What's the main idea.
8. As you probably know unitarians have been excluded, deplatformed, persecuted, and even martyred for centuries. Have you faced any opposition?
9. What advice would you give to unitarian Christians to help us grow as a movement?
Fear of losing family and fellowship prevents people from thinking critically. Rejection for the sake of objectivity can be a hardship. Reading the Bible objectively and with more accurate translations; concordances; and even better, the spirit of God will get one and others there. The truth will ring true. Reading Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews and Wars of the Jews, the history of the Caesars, and Eusebius' history of the church certainly helps! Reason works better if one is informed. Pray for believers everywhere. God is not asleep. Thank you for being gentle with believers who have not had the freedom or time to filter traditions from the actual history of salvation. Eve...for now a silent unitarian.
Hopefully Unitarianism will continue to grow so that people don’t have to feel isolated in their belief- sorry you feel like you have to be silent
I’ll go with the wisdom of Saints Augustine and Thomas, Martin Luther, C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton,etc. over these dudes.
@@xelazipI like getting to know rhe truth. Sometimes things can be painful because I have sometimes felt destroyed but I feel better getting closer to the truth. A lie is a lie nonetheless
Beautifully put
LOVE This guy!
I'll be searching for him elsewhere on the interwebs.
Given the polarization and dogmatism i find in so many videos out there regarding this topic, this interview was a breath of fresh air!
This is amazing, thank you for sharing this with the world Sean!
He makes a good description of my experience reading the Bible and trying to draw out what it actually says with the preconceived notions of the Trinity, and finding I need to adjust my beliefs to fit what the Bible says.
I think the removal of God’s name Jehovah have only added to the confusion. Jehovah is the Most High God. (Psalm 83:18) Jesus is the Son of the Most High. (Luke 1:32) This is verifiable and easy to see.
The name would actually be Yahweh or Yahuah possibly yahawah. The sons name is yahshua
@@robertwatley5249
I've heard Rabbis say it's pronounced Yahovah.....
While true that the pronouncement of the divine name has been lost to us through time, That's not necessarily The same for the Jewish religion. The ancient Jews may have removed the vowels So as not to blaspheme God's name but It's quite likely they kept the true pronouncement to themselves and passed it down over the generations.
@@MultipleGrievance don't get me started on the Rev 2:9's
gesundheit. @@robertwatley5249
Good talk. Thanks for sharing.
Good talk here. I am one as mentioned near the end, who has been commenting online in exposing the trinity as a false religious concept. I found it sharpens what I actually think and what I say. Iron sharpens iron they say.
Also in our current culture preaching the gospel on a street corner is ignored, or illegal, and witnessing in the open market is hard when we dont have market places, except here on line these days.. However, seeking people often visit online video teachings, and so the listening audience is either set in their "orthodoxy" and pushing it, or silently reading and listening, and so the "other" view point needs to be expressed. And a dyed in the wool trinitarian apologist is not likely to be open to thinking from the non trinity point of view, so winning the debate or argument is not the aim, but using the old proof scriptures they throw is good soil to explain the verses biblically from the original viewpoint, be it hebrew or greek, or first cent christian, can certainly benefit the silent seeker. They are my target. The ranting trinitarian is simply a useful foil. LOL
Same here. Welcome brother.
This talk is helpful. These are some of the things I've been wrestling with for some time now. Thanks.
The more you do a deep dive the more it becomes apparent that the trinity doctrine is false and requires much inference. The living God is Jehovah. (Jeremiah 10:10) Jesus is the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16) That is what the Bible really teaches.
Agreed. However it goes deeper. Keep digging you will eventually come to the place where you realize we should be using the father's name not titles like God or Lord they have nebulous and or nefarious Origins. Heck just Google the etymology of the word god. Praise YAH
I love the section on the relationship between scripture and tradition.
Novel questions get more substantial responses. I enjoyed this.
It seems to me traditio is inevitable to such an extent that attempting to escape traditio is, itself, a traditio. Steven's is "It seems to me" tradition and appears an utter novelty. Why ought one to follow him?
Very refreshing 😌
Non trinitarians have been around forever obviously. At this point I don't believe that there are arguments You can make that haven't been made. Perhaps you just haven't heard them being made that's all.
I have heard MANY times from orthodox christianity that Disbelieving the trinity Makes your religion a cult or at the very least, heretical. And i'm talking about church leaders, not Individual members.
If nominal christianity was wrong all of this time, What does that make them?
"On Time and Being" obliterated my synapses!!
I think a pertinent area in terms of the investigation of the trinity is… based on the revealed nature of God in the totality of scriptures , is it reasonable to suggest that if the acceptance of the Trinity is a life-and-death salvation issue (by correctly attributing each persons nature or be considered anathema)….then why would God not clearly define it if he loves us so ?why would he leave it as a needle in a haystack to pick over for thousands of years ? one that can only be found by non-emotional, strictly logical, humble searching for the truth itself? What if salvation hangs on believing that God’s Christ must be accepted as firstborn brother, supreme man appointed by God, who died because he was mortal, and was raised by God ? What if you don’t know Christ at all if you don’t know him as that. What if you don’t believe in the death and resurrection of Christ if you think he was eternally God who cannot truly die?
Are young people rejecting Christianity because some doctrines don't make sense?
@hudsontd7 Did you see me respond to your questions? On the last thread?
Interesting
Regarding Alexandria, remember Philo as well and his Logos theology. There's definitely something in the Alexandrian water system.
The logical endpoint of protestantism. Thank God (Father, Son and HS) I'm Catholic.
Yes…thinking and seeking…so sinful! Thank God you can hide inside your big cathedral and let the robed men tell you what to believe. Same as the Pharisees of old.
@@adamnoel5788 First of all Jesus said: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you-but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice." Matthew:23-2-3
Second: I trust the Church because they (the bishops) sit in the Seat of the Apostles and are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Third: Never said it's sinful, but error will creep in if you just trust just in yourself, instead of trusting also in the institution Jesus left us.
Why does Christendom teach what they know is not biblical?
Arius is trying to say the monad is the most absolute in oneness. Therefor all that came to be arose from nothing within the monad; becoming something that is within the monad but distinct from the monad; in this sense it makes perfect sense( the being that is of the son arises in the Father and is within the father; yet is not the father) the diad arises out of the monad.
How do unitarians explain isaiah 43:10? Seriously enquiring
Which part of the text specifically?
It would suggest to me that God is saying before anything was formed, including false gods he was there and is saying to his chosen servant to bear witness for him.
@@jamiesimms7084 @@jamiesimms7084 does this help?
God
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. The word Elohim is plural, but it is often used with a singular meaning. When used with a singular meaning in the Hebrew Bible, Elohim usually refers to the monotheistic Creator God, or to the God of Israel, Yahweh.
When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, “the God,” and sometimes with a further identification Elohim ḥayyim, meaning “the living God.” Singular: Eloah. Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the 'singular' sense.
Jesus says the Father is the only true God. (John 17:3) The word "monos" means one or only. In the dictionary, the word monos is part of our word monogamy. A monogamist is one who marries one person. No one, not even trinitarians, would believe a person who marries three persons can claim they only have one wife.
Oh but that is what they expect from others, worth their Roman Empire Cathloic dogma. Trinitarinism is evil because like all leftists, they hate reality. Hate it. Hate GOD. Hate his truth. Hate this reality. And they love to lie, like those in government. Lying, the worst sin off all.
You are right Nick, three persons, one god, is the same as three wives, one human wife.
@@TheChadWork2001 The wives can all be human beings but never the same entity. The idea of a multi-person God goes beyond the scriptures. It’s more philosophical than verifiable in scripture. That idea is found in post-biblical creeds but foreign to the inspired holy Bible.
@@NickHawaii
That is all correct. Have you considered monarchical trinitarianism (Unitarians call it Logos Incarnation Christology), where the Father remains the One God, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit are divine beings who come from God before creation?
@@IAmisMaster Good morning. Well from my study of the scriptures I believe the Son is divine. But was brought into existence. I believe God’s spirit emanates from him but is not a person the same way the Father and Son are persons. The Father Jehovah is the Most High and Living God. Jesus is the Son of the Most High, the Son of the living God. This is verifiable.
The son arising from nothing makes perfect sense in that he is gaining being; in relationship to the monad the eternal father; therefore the son has unique being; which God had not duplicated himself; but had genrated a being separate from himself; from nothing; into being. This is exactly what we would have to conclude from the concepts in the Bible of the eternal invisible God. Within himself he generated out of that void; all things have arisen from in the fathers heart. This separate entity instantly gains a relationship to the monad as the father in that being has arisen and sustained by the father in the father; as Arius was trying to explain.
The truth is very simple. The Hebrew Scriptures, especially the Psalms, help us to be far closer to Jehovah God than any Trinitarian would ever be. He really is a heavenly Father , and His Name has an amazing meaning. The Trinity effectively hides Him. There is far more to Scripture than just the life of Jesus. In my work with lots of different religious people, it seems to me that Jehovah’s Witnesses have the best grasp of prophecy and all of Scripture; they have been disproving the Trinity for 100 years or more, and truly express the many aspects of love (of the true God, as well as of neighbour) that should be the life of any Christian.
Jehovah's witness is an occult. The entire archaeological and historical writings are nonexistent in the JW's texts, and many prophecies have failed to come true.
Enjoyed the discussion, I believe the Trinity but do NOT except the Creed 325AD, So I feel that Muslims, JW, Unitarians, Oneness, Mormons want to assume Trinitarians believe the Creedle Tradition and have this "Doctrine of God or Perfect being theology as a presupposition over the Scripture" I would say more then 95% preaching throughout history on the Trinity is based on the authority of scripture NOT a Creed.
@@DroknarsForge4198 It's really easy. To accept the creed often is to accept the infallible authority of the creed, for me. In that case I reject the creed.
The scriptures never describe God as more than one person. For Jesus the only true God was his God and Father. (John 17:3) Jehovah is His Name.
@@NickHawaii are u muslim?
@@hudsontd7778 Hi Hudson! No I am not a Muslim. I come from a family of trinitarians but I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and believe Jesus is the Son of the living God. The Son of the Most High. (Psalm 83:18; Luke 1:32). How about you? And may I ask who do you think is the living God? (Jeremiah 10:10)
HI Nick, Great Questions.
What I notice with Muslims, Oneness, Unitarians and JW is they like to HIGHLIGHT only a Few passage to teach their doctrine, so I will be going to many passage a SYSTEMATIC approach using ALL Scripture in UNITY pertaining to the Biblical Truth of the Tri-Une God.
I want you know that the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and the Calvinist have a DIFFERENT Trintirian belief then many Christians Trintirians like myself do, so hope you know the difference?
Before your question you made assumptions and I would like to know if you can you prove without a shadow of a doubt that Jahovah means ONLY "the Father"?
a romanian? nemeș
Before abraham was, I Am (Ego Eimi)
The use of the present tense here expresses the thought that for God, all time to him is present tense (an eternal or timeless present tense). John 1:1 already said that the Logos (incarnated as the man Jesus) existed before creation with God and has his divine nature (θεός ήν ό λόγος). The closest parallel to John 8:58 in the OT (as mentioned in George R.
Beasley-Murray's WBC volume, p. 139) is Psalm 90:2(89:2) LXX which conveys the same thought but in the second person rather than first: πό του όρη γενήθηκαι καί πλασθήναι τήν οίκουμένην καί άπό τού αίώνος έως τού αίωνος ‘σύ εί
Brenton's translation renders it as: "Before the mountains existed, and before the earth and the world were formed, even from age to age, Thou art."
The recent NETS translation similarly has: "Before mountains were brought forth and the earth and the world were formed, and from everlasting to everlasting, you are".
The use of the present tense here is not odd but poetically conveys the idea that God transcends time and space. Psalm 90:4 continues this idea: "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night"
So just on this basis Jesus is claiming a timelessness that otherwise belongs to God. But there are echoes here of the divine use of אני הוא in the OT. This is the third of a series of pronouncements utilizing an absolute έγώ είμι (without a predicate noun), the prior two being allusive of the divine use of אני הוא in Isaiah 43:10
LXX (John 8:24, 28; cf. also 13:19). On this see especially Catrin H. Williams' I Am He: The Interpretation of 'Anî Hû in Jewish and Early Christian Literature (Mohr Siebeck, 2000).
Christ very well may be timeless. How does that equal him being God?
Same thing with his divinity.
At the moment for all intents & purposes he IS our GOD! That's the role that has been given to him by the Father.
I'm not seeing what you're seeing.
@@MultipleGrievance anything that doesn’t have a beginning is uncreated and anything that is uncreated bears the divine nature? unless there’s other beings that are timeless but not divine.
@Sosarchives
I have no doubt that Christ is divine.
In fact, I believe that's what John 1:1 is really saying.
" In the beginning was the word and The word was with God and the word was divine"
It's Unnecessary & fruitless To attempt to figure out on our own What being divine entails, Timeless or otherwise. Maybe one day will know but today is not that day.
The scripture is very very clear
Whosoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God (2Jn1:9)
Jesus said I am the Son of God
(Not God the Son)
There is no God the Son
Jesus said the Holy Ghost is comforter
(Not God the Holy Ghost)
There is no God the Holy Ghost
Jesus said the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD (Jn17
God was manifest in the flesh (1tim3:16)
His name is JESUS
(Not Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh ect)
Paul said Jesus is the great God and savour (Titus 2: 13)
QUESTION:
Where did the Apostoles preached Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect is the great God and savour...?
John said in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (Jn1:1)
THE WORD WAS GOD
(Not the Son is God)
(14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us
His name is JESUS
John said Jesus is the True God and eternal life (1Jn5:20)
Question
Where did the Apostoles preached Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect, is the True God and eternal life..?
John said for many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ come in the flesh this is Deceiver An Antichrist (2Jn1:7)
John said only one sat on the throne Rev 4:2
Paul said Jesus throne is forever and ever heb1: 8
Question
Where is the Throne of Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect...?
God is I AM
Jesus is I AM
Exo 3:15kjv Lord God this is my name forever and this my memorial unto all generation
Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty WHICH is, which was and is to come (Rev 4:8)
Jesus said the first of all the commandment is HEAR O ISRAEL the Lord our God is One Lord (Mark 12:29 kjv)
Question
Who is One Lord..?
Answer
Paul said Jesus Christ is One Lord (1Cort 8:6)
For i Am the Lord thy God the Holy ONE of Israel thy Savior (isa 43:3)
Isa 45: 5) I AM the Lord and there is NONE ELSE There is no God bless me , i girded thee, though thou has not known me
Jesus and All Apostoles never taught Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Yhwh, ect
Gal 1: 8 is very very clear verse
Paul said but even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you let him be Accursed
Jesus is Lord
The scripture says
There is no other God but the Lord
Jesus is king of kings
The scripture says
There is no other king but God
Jesus is the only Savior
The scripture says
There is no other Savior but God
Trinitarianism isn't hard, it's simple: if you think it's complicated, it's your responsibility for listening to that nonsense for that long.
If someone is telling you 3 = 1 and you buy into it because you heard and were told it's in the scriptures, which you haven't read cover to cover and pondered over it, and because you value the false god of society and conformation bias, then you deserve the reprobate mind you have. However you have a cure: pray to GOD (the one person real one) and mean it, and he will lift the reprobate mind off of you.
Since we are all still humans , we cant possibly know what trinity really is UNTIL the time we become the one that we are questioning , the concept is so simple , when we are still young we might find it hard to understand why many old people tend to act like children for example, being childish / stubborn, talking to " someone who is not really there " AKA we might call it as imaginary friends, playing with water and splashing it several times without any reason or staying in bathroom for quite some time , " fighting " with his / her grandchildren over small gifts lets say from a wedding party, watching cartoon etc, these are the things that my elder sister has started to do on regular basis since she turns to fifties , so when she was around forties , i didnt see these weird symptoms, and when my friend told me the same story about his uncle's weird behavior, i didnt buy it , NOW i believe what he told me , so i think we cant understand what trinity is until someone somewhere experiences the above phenomena
But, nobody has, ...and nobody will. There's no such thing as a god-man, or something being eternally begotten, or a hypostatic union, or theotokos, etc...
If one cannot understand the trinity then we are not required to believe it. Certainly not for salvation. True God’s ways our higher than our ways and so are his thoughts as Isaiah talked a bit and we can never know all God knows but…but we know his identity because he has revealed that to us in scripture. God is not the author of confusion. Jesus says we worship what we know in John 4. Men who do not stick with scripture and deviate from it make it confusing and a mystery. We know who our Father is. That is never how to comprehend or understand.
@@NickHawaii That's right Nick, one cannot be convicted of something that they don't understand. We were created in God's image, therefore there is an affinity between our spirit and His, it is only the magnitude of His attributes that we cannot fathom, but not necessarily the principles themselves - we share these, at least in potential i.e. morality, righteousness, love, wisdom, insight, perception, passion/desire, .....
Trinity theology is just utterly deranged nonsense.
@@dboulos7 They say it’s a mystery but the only thing mysterious is their way of reasoning to me. Thanks for your expressions.
@@NickHawaii Funny, I have used that almost exact same expression myself, for years - '...the only thing mysterious about this doctrine, is how anyone can believe it...'
Thanks!
Dr. Nemes:
On the Aeons mentioned:
Yes, and you can tell just by reading the "generations" of God as to what their names mean that this is the case.
I do try to tell people of these things, and I have spoken about this and other spiritual things in certain Gnostic Facebook Groups.
People forget that Gnostic Christians were Christians...that were gnostic. That's just it. Because so many people have not even given it the benefit of the doubt, they are being heavily mischaracterized. The Roman Catholics are getting a bit of that from Protestants, and then the offshoots like Mormonism, etc.; this is that Pattern. So, you notice that also the lay Christian from the Bible Belt will hate on those offshoots, and then now Biblical Unitarians are judging, in a sense, those also. Now, I find myself having to judge everyone, naming the animals, and healing their sicknesses. So, the last has become the first.
Anyway, so, because they're Christians, they are going to have the core doctrines or their components, such as sayings of Jesus. So, for those into spiritual things, the Gnostics, they are obviously going to be explaining all things. When there is seen the idea of the OT showing a pattern revealed in the NT, various writings of those called "Gnostics" are working further in the Spirit beyond what is in:
- the elementary Gospel accounts
- the woeful intellectual rebuke of Hebrews
- Paul's angst at failing with people even while only bringing the bare minimum
So, it would make sense that they are demonstrating how the mind of man which he has from God --- which makes him human and "like God" --- has the marks of its Creator. So, it would be able to show how the concepts proceeding one from the next can lead into the state of the world in a rational way. Everything that anyone makes, he makes from the resources he has in himself --- both physical and mental. So, the condition of his body dictates what methods he will use to make it; his mind dictates the style, the purpose, and the skill. We also have to understand that things which John says, such as "God is love" are CONCLUSIONS that were arrived at in the Spirit, and that there ARE ways of tracing these out --- if one understands.
Just answering to let you know that there are others (or at least one other) who has caught onto that and who has a slight bit of experience with it.
What do you mean by "gnostic". I understand that "gnostics", as is commonly used, is a blanket term for various differing Christianities not one unified thought. For example, in pop culture, docetists and non docetists are both categorized under the umbrella term, but these different Jesus's with different messages.
Please don't use Trinity. It leads to confusion. Use the term Godhead:
Godhead
The term "Godhead" is found three times in the King James Version: Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. In each of the three verses, a slightly different Greek word is used, but the definition of each is the same: "deity" or "divine nature." The word Godhead is used to refer to God's essential nature. We'll look at each of these passages and what they mean.
In Acts 17, Paul is speaking on Mars Hill to the philosophers of Athens. As he argues against idolatry, Paul says, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device" (Acts 17:29, KJV). Here, the word Godhead is the translation of the Greek word, a word used by the Greeks to denote "God" in general, with no reference to a particular deity. Paul, speaking to the Greeks, used the term about the only true God.
In Romans 1, Paul makes the case that all humanity stands guilty before God. In verse 20, he says, "The invisible things of him from the world's creation are seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (KJV). Here, Godhead is theiotés. Paul argues that all creation virtually shouts God's existence; we can "clearly" see God's eternal power and His "Godhead" in what He has made. "The heavens declare the glory of God; / the skies proclaim the work of his hands" (Psalm 19:1). The natural world manifests God's divine nature.
Colossians 2:9 is one of the most straightforward statements of the Deity of Christ anywhere in the Bible: "In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The word for "Godhead" here is theotés. According to this verse, Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. He embodies all ("the fullness") of God (translated as "the Deity" in the NIV). This truth aligns perfectly with Colossians 1:19, "God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Christ]."
Because the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ, Jesus could rightly claim that He and the Father are "one" (John 10:30). Because the fullness of God's divine essence is present in the Son of God, Jesus could say to Philip, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).
In summary, the Godhead is the essence of the Divine Being; the Godhead is the only Deity. Jesus, the incarnate Godhead, entered our world and showed us exactly who God is: "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known" (John 1:18; cf. Hebrews 1:3).
Jesus said God is one, Abraham said God is one,Noah said God is one
Because they are referring to the Father, that doesn’t negate the Sons divinity
so "god" refers to the father? @@Sosarchives
Isaiah 9:6 proves two natures
Jesus isn't God. Jesus has a God which is his father
Yes, when he was here on earth. But now, His only nature is spirit because flesh and blood is not in heaven. When Thomas saw him after the resurrection, he said my Lord and my God.
1. The four gospels definitely disclose ONLY ONE "Father - Son" relatioship.
As concerns the Trinity, the most qualified Person to give information is Jesus, who dozens of times reiterates to be ONLY WITH THE FATHER! Jesus is NEVER with TWO divine Persons, nor a SECOND relationship with an alleged third divine person of a trinity exists. Thus there is no doubt that neither a THIRD divine person, nor a trinity exists.
2. Jesus sometimes even EXPLICITLY states to be only with the Father: "I am not ALONE because the Father is with me" i.e. just Father and Son.
3. Jesus states that the Father is a spirit "God is a spirit" (Jn. 4:23,24)
4. Thus Jesus is ONLY with the FATHER WHO IS A SPIRIT.
5. This means that only TWO blasphemies exist: either 1. against the Son or 2. against the "Father who is a spirit"
6. Those TWO blasphemies were discussed by Jesus: blasphemy against the "Father who is a spirit" (called "Holy Spirit" by Jesus") will not forgiven, neither in this world, nor in the future world.
7. To recap, ONLY ONE (divine) SPIRIT exists: He is the Father.
Wow that's an amazing answer!
Yes truly blasphemy against the spirit could easily be calling God the only true God something he isn't
Like saying he has an equal!
Great stuff sir
@@kevinmichaelhughes4257
1. Jesus says "God is a spirit" (Jn. 4:24)
2. Who is that "God is a spirit"? No doubt, He is THE FATHER (Jn. 4:23,24)
3. Thus, you know that the FATHER - WHO IS A SPIRIT - is INSIDE JESUS (see "..from the Father who DWELLS IN ME")
4. Is there ANYONE ELSE inside Jesus? NO - contrary to the trinity doctrine - Jesus states and reiterates to be WITH THE FATHER ONLY ("Yet, I am not ALONE because the Father is with me") i.e. just Father and Son.
5. But where is the "Holy Spirit" who helped Jesus in the desert now, did a "change of assistance" occur? No "shift-change"! Of course the Father - who is a spirit - and is inside Jesus - is simply called "HOLY SPIRIT" by Jesus, see his sermon on the two blasphemies. He is thus the THE SAME ONE who helped Him in the desert, who spoke when He was baptized, who was responsible for Mary's pregnancy, who will help the apostles...
Deny, deny and deny....
You are not wrong, but consider this, that the Son is the Everlasting Father, Mighty God Isaiah 9 :6.
There is one God, Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus said so, and also sais, If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. The doctrine of a trinity does not stand in the light of revelation that Jesus is the Everlasting Father.
God is a spirit, and as God, he is not bound by our limited knowledge of him. There remains a mystery, and we know in part. The revelation of the mystery is literally shown to us when God shall appear 1John3 :2.
Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to, and we shall know even as we are known 1Cor13 :12
Until then we seem to fight among us over that which we have no revelation. It remains a mystery.
@@danmarley2886
Jesus is not the everlasting Father because He is NOT almighty. This is why Jesus needs the Father's agreement and power when making miracles, see for ex. "thank you for hearing me" when Lazarus was resurrected. However, Jesus HAD BEEN the Father, this is why the Father is NOT AVAILABLE to be seen "nobody has seen God at any time" and Jesus says "He who sees me SEES HIM who sent me."!
Due to his almighty power the almighty God is INCOMPATIBLE with us.
For this reason the almighty God "split" in two: 1. the Father - in the form of a spirit now - and 2. the Son.
The Father is almighty but ABSENT "the world has not known you". However the Father has the power to be here with his words and actions. Since the Father is virtually here - but NOBODY is actually here - you say that the Father is a spirit here (Jn. 4:23,24). "Son" means that Jesus DERIVES from God, i.e. He isn't an ACTUAL Son. Jesus derives from the Father in that He lost his power, He is now like a normal man.
Since Jesus is fully present He is the only King and Owner of the reign of God: as a regular Son He inherited the reign of God "all things are now in my hand".
This is a dangerous train of thought. Is to lead you in all understanding. Also, you have to believe that the Bible is the preserve word of God. I don’t believe this perspective allows that.
I’ll side with Saints Augustine and Thomas, Martin Luther, C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, etc. over these dudes.
Just side with the truth.
He is
@@mrsmith9079 the truth is the truth and no one person possess the whole truth and it is something we should always strive for. The truth is not a person or traditions as solely relying on such is just dogma. You need to be honest and learn to have discernment. The truth is an offense but not a sin.
@@jamiesimms7084 I believe Jesus when he said he was the first and the last, that he was dead, that he is now alive forevermore and holds the keys of death and hades.
@@mrsmith9079 Jesus isn't any of the people listed above is he? All of them have theories and reasonings of their own.
Dr. Steven Nemes You are correct about no trinity but incorrect that Jesus didn’t live in heaven before coming to earth.
@@HarlanK Hi! On the subject of the trinity being unscriptural or on preexistent Son before coming to earth?
@@HarlanK Thanks for telling me. What do you think presently? I read a fair essay online by Patrick Navas forget the name of it. Let me check. It is called… “Exploring the Question of
“pre-human existence”
Reflections on Problems and Issues of Scriptural Interpretation in Reference to the Son of God”
Look that up. It’s about 50 pages. Let me know what ya think? 😀
@@HarlanK I come from a family of Trinitarians and Jehovah’s Witnesses. After a careful investigation my findings, even though not popular, are Jehovah’s Witnesses have it right. Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God and he was next to his Father before the world was. (John 17:5) God was not next to a thought or plan but with his Son who he used to bring all things into existence. (1 Corinthians 8:6) Jesus saw the Father. (John 6:46) And gave up a mighty position in heaven. And he goes back to where he was before. (John 6:38 and 62). Where did he go back to?? Not back to a plan or thought in God’s mind.
@@HarlanK Thanks for telling me. I had many good in person discussions with LDS. With even a Patriarch of the church and a high priest who now is actually one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yes many things about Joseph Smith disqualify him from being a true prophet of God. For me it’s not only the teachings, where we must worship the Father with spirit and truth (John 4) but also the fruits of true disciples namely LOVE that would identify true followers of Christ. Being no part of the world also helps identify who are really following Jesus. Feel free to share anything with me or ask any question anytime.
@@HarlanK When you were in the LDS they taught Jesus IS Jehovah. What do you think about that now? Still believe that? Just wondering. Thanks.
Holy moly you people will question yourselfs clean out of Christianity altogether
115 iq take
YeH my poor midwit brain is struggling to cope, drawn to listen to this dreck and make some sense of it... I find it appalling... I am not a PhD in theology but my instinct is to flee in to the Orthodox Church, I would recommend it... But I am compelled to listen, Lord have mercy. 😅
Trinity is the name of Constantine god of delusion.