EPISODE 83 - Trans Widow - Off the Grid: Shannon Thrace
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- Quick Notes:
Shannon Thrace is a writer, IT professional, and devotee of farm-to-table restaurants, summer festivals, all-night conversations, and lifelong learning. She’s passionate about unplugging, getting outside, and traveling the world. She’s also a trans widow who has written a memoir, soon to be published.
Today Shannon tells about first meeting her husband, Jaime. She fell in love and married a man who was creative and artistic, with an eclectic but grungy style. He was down for anything, fun to be around, and spontaneous. They moved from the city to the country. This was a young open-minded couple that enjoyed a playfulness in their relationship. So when Jamie stumbled across trans porn and developed an interest in cross-dressing, Shannon was more curious than distressed. But then things took a weird turn. As Jamie started to spend more time in online spaces, and less time in the real world, his interest in cross-dressing changed from a fun activity to a real struggle with gender dysphoria. He spiraled into worsening mental health and their marriage took a dive. Shannon tells the story of how her loving marriage couldn’t withstand the pressure of Jamie’s obsessions, ideologies, and online activism. We touch on the role of affirmative therapists, the loss of her friends, and Shannon’s utter isolation from this complicated situation. Ultimately a solo camping trip helped her ground herself and make a decision about ending the marriage. She ends this interview with some advice to other women who may be in a similar situation.
Links:
shannonthrace....
Shannon's Book:
www.amazon.com...
Extended Notes
● Shannon shares the story of her love for her husband.
● Exploring Trans pornography was Jamie’s way of introducing Shannon to his transformation.
● Jamie changed his personal style many times over the years.
● Shannon identified as a lesbian before meeting her husband.
● While testing out the waters of cross-dressing, Jamie was writing about his masculinity in a blog.
● A brief comment from a stranger ignited Jamie’s gender dysphoria.
● Jamie’s story closely fits into the gender dysphoria narrative on the internet at the time.
● Jamie was so depressed he stepped out of his everyday life. He quit work and stopped having sex with Shannon.
● Shannon’s therapist recommended she write a letter to say goodbye to her male partner.
● The therapist commented that she thought it would be fun to transition Jamie.
● Jamie started to pull away, sabotaged Shannon in tirades, and gave their mutual friends ultimatums.
● Jamie has had surgery to fully incorporate his beliefs.
● Shannon believes gender dysphoria can be acquired.
● Shannon offers advice for those who have spouses in various stages of transitioning.
Wider Lens Renewal Retreat - Arizona 2022: www.eventbrite...
This podcast is sponsored by ReIME and Genspect. Visit rethinkime.org/ and genspect.org/ to learn more.
For more about our show: linktr.ee/Wide...
Women who divorce an alcoholic get sympathy and are encouraged to talk about their feelings. Women who divorce a transgender person are judged as intolerant bigots. They are discouraged from "deadnaming" or referring to their husbands by male pronouns even when speaking about life before he said he was trans. For many, the story is about p*rn addiction, and him demanding certain bedroom activities, so it's difficult to speak about with friends or family.
So true. It amounts to a public shaming campaign -- they've been openly reviled by activists, deplatformed and threatened online, chastised by affirmation therapists for not staying in the relationship (and openly lauded in media/online when they do stay), taunted for being heteronormative or transphobic or "vanilla," with joint finances drained for "transition," custody cases, mother-erasure issues . . . Even Blanchard has complained about "the wives" as if they were an obstacle to research.
Where's the empathy? Where are the support networks? They've had to build their own. And they're just now finding their public voices.
this is incredible.
this story is almost mine, to a T.
with the exception, that at some point, i sort of came to my senses and kept myself from crossing some line that would have pushed my relationship over the edge.
i am fascinated by the degree to which our stories are similar.
in so many ways.
thank you for this. it is so revealing and telling about the strange cultural moment we are in.
x
At the point where her ex-husband accused her of abuse, I started to relate. My beautiful, pixie, dress loving, tea party, sparkle, dancing little girl started down this dark path after going online in art communities at 18. She decided she was a man, had always been a man, and started hormones. It's a long story so to shorten it, she started seeing a therapist and is now convinced that I was abusive and wants no contact. Her older and younger sisters confirm that no one was abused by me. I feel like I am in mourning for the loss of my beautiful girl. However, these podcasts have been very helpful as I navigate this strange reality.
I think it wrong to categorize women/wives who are not turned on by their husband's "alternative" styles as "conservative." We experienced attraction to the way he was. The new frilly stuff is a turn-off for most of us, and we're entitled to our tastes/preferences. Ute Heggen, author, In the Curated Woods, True Tales from a Grass Widow (iuniverse, 2022)
Agreed. Based on the interviews I’ve heard, Ute Heggen does not seem to have been in any way “prudish” in her sexuality. She was fully embodied and confident. To call women “conservative” simply because they don’t like autogynephilia is crass and frankly ridiculous.
There’s nothing stodgy or regressive about a woman who knows what she likes and is repulsed by a fetish rooted in misogynistic, degrading pornography.
Really interesting discussion. The offence of having your own views struck me. Wanting to control how someone else thinks & rejecting the person if they won't do as they are told. That, along with the lack of compromise. Self first, even when that was detrimental. Shannon had a lovely thoughtful clarity to her, looking forward to reading her book.
Shannon 's analysis and insight is so impressive. Looking forward to her book! I would also love to hear more stories from Genspect about and from transwidows and also transorphans. So much silence from the the family members other than moms and some dads. Where are the kids, siblings, grandchildren, etc?
I appreciate your advocacy here, Belissa. I now have Ute Heggen YT channel to be the voice of trans widows who've been silenced by their husband's threats. So many have contacted me. Siblings of, children of and friends who suddenly find half of their friends "transitioning."
I appreciate this. My adult brother "transed" during midlife (beginning in 2000). I sought three outside professional clinical opinions for my own sake, and their consensus was that he likely has atypical bipolar (it does run in the family) compounded by trauma, all undiagnosed/untreated and *mis*treated with gender affirmation therapy.
Before I went no-contact (reluctantly and with guidance), he was becoming increasingly manipulative, experiencing estrogen-accelerated periods of narcissistic rage alternating with depression, was saying unusual and inappropriate things to female family members, and seemed increasingly dissociative. The experience has essentially left a blast crater in the center of my family.
I did not lose my brother to "gender identity disorder." I lost him to bipolar, trauma, and predatory online "affirmation" networks, largely before social media as we know it came into being.
Gender-affirmative practices leave no one untouched -- spouses, children, parents, siblings, friends. Like many, despite my best efforts I ended up in trauma therapy for C-PTSD. Our voices need to be heard.
@@-Stella-Maris- I hope that Ms's O'Malley and Ayad highlight this comment. I also know a sister, this one, young, about 30. Her brother has autism. They all knew, but he was lured into a "cure" and his parents took money from their pensions to pay for the parts of his surgical "transitions" that were not covered. He is not better post-op, and remains a financial drain on the family. The sister feels a responsibility to support her parents, as her father is now being treated for cancer, Hodgekins lymphoma. Life happens. Ray Blanchard's "Protocols" or not. Thanks so much, S Maris, for this. Just to let you know, Jon Uhler, of his eponymous channel, is starting an international study group and invited me to participate, as a trans widow, with direct contact of practitioners in "the field," who denied, in sworn affidavits, the trauma my ex caused our children. "Any trauma the children express will be due to their mother's lack of acceptance." In The Heggen Lexicon, it's Sexology Mythology, a pagan religion.
Sounds like a borderline with an identity crisis around his career or lack thereof, and roles
His life was without roots, nothing to give him self esteem as a man. Instead of improving himself, he annihilated his identity into an empty fetish and pseudo community
You're right on the money. Male BPD is often overlooked. It presents a bit differently, so psych professionals usually miss it.
Yeah a man w no drive and free all day to consume porn…
“Be the center of your own life.” Wise words from a wonderful guest. Thank you.❤️
Such a good parting message. At the end of the day, a relationship based around you pandering to the other person and surpressing your own needs is not going to work.
Exculansic often says that surgeons are so quick to snip off parts for the same reason, they either are excited to try or they enjoy destroying people they think of as perverts.
And as Exulansic has also pointed out, a not insignificant number of those surgeons are likely the deviant and sadistic ones, themselves.
It sounds like Jamie consistently had a somewhat weak definition of self and lacked general self confidence. He may also have been in a mid-life crisis. And she definitely addresses dilusional aspects in Jamie... it's so troubling that so little was explored in therapy and yeah that therapist souned too anxious to put a feather in her cap (as she saw it); i have heard of this too much in medicine lately.
What exactly was expected in the bedroom is important because it seems what some of these men define as being "female" in the bedroom can be quite degrading and that seems to be a key to perhaps deeper psychological issues not related to being trans at all.
it sounds to me like this lady kind of held his hand into it, as soon as he came to her about crossdressing in the bedroom she was all for it. I'm very surprised she didn't know that would be the end of it all
Thats an interesting “aha!” - for a man to be turned on by a image of being weak and submissive, rather than a strong and self-confident, woman
I agree, she says it wasn't a fetish or at least there was more to it than that but I'm not so sure. Sounds like he was probably addicted to sissy porn and was turned on by forced feminisation, she says he wasn't into porn but it's most likely he was keeping it hidden from her.
Pre liked as usual. It does take a long time for me to listen to these because I always have to pause and reflect on the points made.
she sounds very reasonable and empathetic
Shannon, thank you for your bravery and honesty.
1:00:44 I think you really hit the nail on multifactorial influences (porn, social media, mental health). My adult brother began "transing" pre-social media, but I know for certain that online activism chat rooms, untreated bipolar (very likely), and trauma were factors. Our mother had already passed, and he began going down the rabbit hole online shortly before our father passed. His main affirmation anxiety seemed to be how closely he resembled our mother. (He also had a lifelong resistance to psychotherapy, was arch and argumentative with doctors and healthcare professionals, defiant of employers and authority figures in general.) FWIW I think unprocessed trauma can play a big destabilizing role in all of this -- thank you for mentioning it.
I can relate to this to a limited degree but from the perspective of a trens identified person's close friend as opposed to being their spouse.
I think in addition to the valuable experiences of trens widows, it would be useful to interview fromer friends and their children / step children.
I'm just wondering if this guy was a working musician, in a band, gigging etc.
When some guys lose their dreams of success etc they fill it with other distractions.
Another five-star episode, Ladies! You're knocking it out of the park over and over!!!
Many cross dressers and trans women are into SM/BD, which comes from a dark place.
Dont know if this is something that you can control, I enjoyed listening, but there really were too many ads disrupting these immersive thoughts.
Like, every five minutes...
Psychologically, I'm curious what the homelife or upbringing was of these two people. Did they grow up in two parent homes? How many siblings? What was their relationship to those people? Stuff like that.
Sounds like he was keeping this agp stuff suppressed or secret and he finally couldn't hide it anymore
I sense the porn factor is way more major in this story.
@@The-FinisherI agree with you. I used to be a Born That Way apologist, but as I’ve lived longer and met more people and heard more stories, I just don’t believe that anymore. Im not trying to be mean or provocative. I’ve seen way too much of “behind the curtain”.
Thank goodness, you got out of this. I can see so much male narcissism and plain selfishness, self denial. It's sad because if there was a different therapist, the relationship could have been saved. What are the effects on children involved who have no choice in the matter.
Shannon, I think he was gas lighting you when he was putting words into your mouth.
Amazing woman. 💚💚🌻
Yin Yang...we are all a mix of masculine and feminine
In regards to women and bisexuality, it seems to be quite common that more 'masculine' women end up with more 'feminine' men. I'm quite similar to Shannon in that I am mostly attracted to women, and the handful of men I am attracted to are more feminine. The other day I even learnt some slang about it! There are some men who are feminine but straight and give off 'bi-wife energy' - as in, it makes more sense when you meet their bisexual wife (who probably is the masculine energy in the relationship). I guess we are a minority so it's not something overly visible in the mainstream, but it's something I've observed since I have bisexual friends. To me it makes sense - opposites attract.
Perhaps some would argue our feminine male partners are actually transwomen and our attraction to them validates the 'transbian' narrative. So maybe I am a fool and in 10 years my partner will want to transition?! It wouldn't be a deal breaker conseptually but for all the reasons Shannon listed I imagine it would be a miserable experience for everyone involved. I hope my male partner remains happy in his body, although I appreciate that some aspects of male stereotypes are alien to him (as I have a similar situation, just the other way around!)
And that's a reason stereotypes are problematic.
Also sex stereotypes can vary from culture to culture
Mandy, I notice that, too!
Sometimes a dominant woman scares all of the submissive men off, so she ends up with a dominant man in the end. That's what happened to me 😂. I'm bi too.
I am a mid butch Lesbian and I gravitate towards mid femmes.
The Brat Pitt thing also reminds me of young women who also have trouble receiving compliments and believe it's improper or harassing in some way.
Eventually, people just stop complimenting eachother entirely cause the risk of an outburst is too much trouble to deal with.
🐂 💩
Women don't necessarily want to be complimented *on looks* because everything in their lives and within society rotates around it. It's a bit dehumanizing. Even if your intentions are "good", you need to contextualise the reactions of these people. If you want to compliment somebody you know very little I _would_ recommend something other than looks, esp. for young women (ex. you are smart/outgoing/gentle/funny/etc.).
As a former young woman, most of the time men compliment you on your looks, they are trying to get into your pants, which is why I don't appreciate comments like that. You are born with your looks and you have your youth, so why compliment someone on something innate like that? I always did like receiving compliments on my outfit/costume when going out because I'd usually designed and made it myself, and for sure picked it out myself. You wouldn't give a man a compliment on his natural beauty so why do that to women? It's a form of sexism, saying women have somehow achieved something by being born hot?! Which suggests that this is where their value lies. No thanks. I don't believe this to be harassing, I KNOW it to be harassing because that's how I experience it even if your intention may have been different. What is your intention when you tell a (young) woman that she has good looks, like, genuinely, why do you do that, it's most often unwelcome so you aren't doing it for us, so you're doing it for yourself, with what intention? I remember going out when I was only 17 and a man who was probably around 40 started complimenting me, and he then jumped to talking about bodily fluids etc. I was massively creeped out and I immediately left that part of the venue. It's totally inappropriate and unwelcome. Like I said, most of the times I've been complimented on my looks it's by men trying to suggest sex. It's not a compliment to be found attractive for NSA sex, because most men have an extremely low bar for that (female, a certain age range, not obese; being within that isn't an achievement).
I’ve just listened to this immensely interesting interview recorded 9 months ago and there’s only 120 likes????
Rubbish!
His behavior sounds similar to the mania of bipolar disorder with his delusions of persecution from his wife that did not happen.
Since mental disorders seem to mostly have a metabolic root cause (gut brain axis disruption from plant defense chemicals like plant lectins, phytates, oxalates etc or something like glucose hypometabolism in the brain), what could be the metabolic root cause for gender dysphoria? Things like therapeutic ketogenic diets or ketone supplements have shown symptom reduction or remission in Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, schizophrenia, bipolar, and depression to name a few. If it is all in the brain, the cause must be something around physiological derangement. An evolutionarily mismatch perhaps.
Nothing is merely “all in the brain” have you ever heard of epigenetics? Lol.
To me, he sounds like a male borderline. They exist!
It's too bad that so-called professionals are not offering any kind of treatment, but instead are supporting delusions. If some dietary changes could improve mental health, why wouldn't they try them, it's infuriating.
Wow, that therapist!!! 🤢
Too many ads interrupting the flow.
Thanks for your comment. We are working on updating these settings.
I respect Shannon for speaking up but this interview was very much about the man and his processes and very little about how this kind of ordeal affects his partner. We have already heard quite a bit about what the men are going through, We need to hear about how living with an AGP affects women. While any discussion with a trans widow is a step forward, the decision to speak to this woman rather than with someone of the far more common experience of sexual abuse, coercive control and coercion via the need to protect children was clearly a decision based on the agenda of the interviewer rather with a goal toward giving voice to the women most in need of being heard.
Feminism isn't the goal of this series, while an important, separate goal. They are trying to be diplomatic in the face of a difficult topic. There are already reviews calling the series "transphobic" 🙄
Yup. His "persecution complex" is actually AGP rage
@@clairehann2681 I mentioned neither feminism nor transphobia. Diplomacy would be if those behind the podcast considered the experience of women in regard to AGP as much as the struggles of the men who decide to put the fetish above all else in life. For it is, indeed, a decision and has as much to do with the entitlement of the men involved as the struggles they may face. The idea that what is happening to women is somehow a distinctly separate "feminist issue" and that progress can only be made by considering these supposedly separate things somehow at odds rather than intrinsically connected is the single most damaging claim those involved in this production make. If they truly want to mitigate the harm of gender ideology they will stop dividing the issue into camps when to consider the whole is essential.
The book is about her experience. I came upon this interview because I just finished the book and wanted to find more by her. She works in IT and I don't think she has training as a writer, but the book is beautifully written.
@@clairehann2681 Escaping psychological enmeshment, prioritizing child safeguarding, and emancipation from a family member who is mistaking mental illness for identity (with the help of affirming clinicians) -- these are not feminist issues. They're human welfare issues.
Hearing this story, it sounds to me like the hubby was starved for attention and he's got it this way. Good for her that she's moved on and likely able to monetise her side of it, heh.
A lot of trans women start out as cross dressers. Also, because they don't have the advantages of adolescence, where teenage girls experiment with different kinds of clothing, to find their style, at the beginning of their transition, they will experiment with different hairstyles/clothing.
I found that transgender and cross dresser people were much more "well put together" in Tampa Bay, Florida than upstate New York. I am not sure why, except there's more homo and transphobia in upstate New York than in Tampa Bay, Florida.
I do admire your measured response to this situation but can't help thinking you have over intellectualised the narrative. You married a man and your husband followed a path to narcissistic self love. He did not consider your feelings and expected, no, demanded your acquiescence, . That is abuse.
This is also precisely what happened when Feminism took hold of the minds of many women
Or menopause
Or motherhood
No it’s not. Feminism has NEVER advocated for the eradication of biological sex, in fact that is the class dynamic we seek to protect.
@@sinew1000 wrong.
Judith Butler just a performance.
Andrea Dworkin androgyny utopia.
Yeah he was dressing like a girl so she thought it was cool punk rock how did that work out for her ? Didn't turn out so cool did it