EP 115: How Online Communities Shape, Thought, Desire, & Doubt about Transition, w/ Eliza Mondegreen
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- čas přidán 25. 05. 2023
- In this episode, Sasha & Stella chat with graduate student and Substack author Eliza Mondegreen, who is dedicated to the study of online trans and detrans communities. She also studies the knowledge, attitudes, and beliefs underpinning affirmative care.
The conversation with Eliza begins with a deep dive into what led to her intimate exploration of gender. She shares how her history with eating disorders, an early interest in the study of totalitarianism, advocacy work around women’s reproductive health, and her relationship with a close friend during their transition experience all helped pave the way for her intense interest and curiosity about gender, specifically the psychological experience as it relates to projecting distress and the medical interventions for managing the distress. Eliza shares how she explores these concepts in depth through her engagement with online communities (like Reddit) where she observes and reflects on the stories, ideas, and reactions shared by other members inside the internet-based groups.
Eliza also speaks about her attendance at both the EPATH conference recently in Ireland, and the WAPTH conference last year in Canada for a fully immersive experience and a first-hand account of the affirmative approach to trans healthcare and medicalization. Eliza writes extensively on her Substack about her encounters and observations, and her first-hand exposure from inside the online and medical communities indulging the identity that is “trans.”
Links:
gender: hacked by Eliza Mondegreen
Graduate student researching and writing about all things gender identity
elizamondegreen.substack.com
FTM Over 30 | FTM Over 30
A place for FTM/FTN/FTX folk over 30 to come together for support and discussion. If your life experiences better align with those who are usually over 30, you're welcome here.
/ ftmover30
FTM Men | FTM Men
A support and community-oriented space for binary FTM men.
/ ftmmen
r/detrans | Detransition Subreddit
Welcome all detransitioners/desisters and self-questioners.
/ detrans
r/actual detrans | detrans_support
An alternative to r/detrans that provides support to detransitioners, reidentifiers, retransitioners, and questioners in an environment free from gender-critical ideology and rhetoric.
/ actual_detrans
r/ftm | A place for the guys
Support-based discussion place focused on trans men, trans-masc individuals, and other people assigned female at birth who are trans.
/ ftm
Egg IRL Community
/ egg_irl
EPATH
epath.eu/
If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:
Episode 6 - Gender Intervention: Treatment or Experiments?
• EPISODE 6 - Gender Int...
Episode 49 - Archives of an Epidemic: A conversation w/ Benjamin Boyce
• EPISODE 49 - Archives ...
Episode 64 - Pioneers Series: Psychotherapy Pre- and Post-Transition with Az Hakeem
• EPISODE 64 - Pioneers ...
Episode 94 - WPATH’s Bizarre 8th Standards of Care
• EPISODE 94 WPATH's Biz...
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Amazing to think that a belief system you can see developing in real-time on public forums has been able to subordinate the authority of the medical profession so completely.
It just shows how vital the sort of research Eliza is doing is for understanding this issue.
Great discussion, thank you.
The medical profession is not as ethical as we want to believe. The opioid crisis as one example, the "husband stitch" after giving birth etc. Especially when money come into play, and this trans trend is creating lifelong patients, so some professionals view that as a win.
Yes, the medical profession is rife with human rights abuses including making pregnancy a Medical pathology, legislating real midwives out of existence and gaslighting women about the dangers of the unmonitored unmedicalized pregnancy in order to bring women into their hospitals. Little do most women know that gynecology was built on “knowledge” gained while experimenting on slave women’s genitals without consent or pain mitigation ((aka sexual torture and rape)) and pregnancy is a biological condition that literally runs itself without assistance from doctors and hospitals
Thank you, as always, Sasha and Stella and Eliza, too. Eliza Mondegreen will be seen as one of the brilliant heroes in this quest to save children and young adults from the harmful confusion of gender ideology and the world gone mad.
thank you Lisa! We loved having Eliza on, she's amazing
This concept Eliza articulates of the "trans alter" which the professionals believe in so strongly that any harm to the actual patient in front of them becomes irrelevant and justifiable - that's just a mind-blowing way to put it; this seems key to understanding how "trans healthcare" is even happening despite the issues one doesn't even need to be a doctor to see.
Regarding ftm being much more focused on medicalisation than mtf, well that just makes sense, doesn't it? Being a woman is very much about the body. A woman can't avoid thinking of her body at least, ummm, periodically, and women are all too often thought OF as bodies aka sex objects, or even just perfectly innocently but absolutely inescapably evaluated based on beauty standards every day of their lives. No wonder the boobs are the first to go.
Eliza is brilliant! I have been following her work for a while. Thanks for having her. My 11 yo son likes to play Roblox and watch gaming CZcamsrs. I have seen the videos pop up asking him “are you gay?” He is a child. Children aren’t “gay”!!!! It’s an overt attempt to indoctrinate. As parents we need to be having conversations with our kids so they are armed with knowledge and truth. Thank you so much Sasha and Stella for this episode. I so appreciate Eliza’s insight and her incredible work!
I did a philosophy PhD back in the day, and Eliza is a truly impressive mind. I think her work will cast a long shadow in a good way. It's an honour to get to see and hear her.
Amazing endorsement of a young mind. I love how she thinks.
It is so ridiculous that they would call it trans genocide to NOT sterilize and mutilate the people who believe they are trans… this newspeak is so dangerous to people who are uniformed and I often see very confused people attacking those trying to help
How refreshing, thank you. Eliza, your early interest in "totalitarian regimes" struck a chord- that was the first psychology topic that took hold for me too! And here I am also struggling to understand and respond to the trans phenomenon as a psychologist. For those of us in practice, we are between a rock and a hard place attempting to treat these patients in a thoughtful and sensitive manner with the ever present threat that we will be deemed transphobic. I'm not sure if you made the direct comparison, but I also see totalitarian aspects to what is going on here- indoctrination, radicalization, insistence on conformity and "groupthink", intolerance for questions or opposition of any kind, destructiveness, power, intention to radically change society, extremism rhetoric, us versus them thinking, etc. Plus, I have always had a nose for bullshit. This stinks to high heaven. PS: I'm lurking on those subreddits to better understand as well!
I love Eliza so much. May god continue to bless her on her journey to share the truth.
What a bright young lady. She pulled in a few factors I hadn’t considered too much
Thank you so much for these videos and all the work that you do. I am trans MTF, 45yo, 2yrs HRT. I have a lot of concern about the younger generation, and about "gender ideology", and the non-binary phenomenon. I am especially worried for the children who are being brought into this fold at such a young age. I've been struggling with issues related to childhood SA, absentee father, and gender issues my whole life, and strangely, I think that the prolonged struggle is why I feel confident in my decision at this point in my life. Unfortunately, I think the suffering and the struggle was necessary (for me), and now I have the maturity and understanding to make informed consent decisions. I think the youth on-line have a whole new life than we had growing up. I still don't quite understand it, but I am really concerned and I speak out and have difficult conversations with people near me regularly about these issues. I know someone who has a non-binary female daughter who is interested in top surgery, and I have tried to dissuade them from allowing it but they are of the affirmative mindset. They have not gone forward yet, and I hope that they don't :( I really appreciate your videos. Thank you!
Thank you, Jen. We appreciate your comment and sharing your concerns about what you're seeing. Thanks for listening!
@@widerlenspod 💜
Your unique perspective makes your voice very important in these times. Thank you for sharing it and please do continue to speak up!
Very informative and interesting talk. I am a straight man born in the 60s and recently I have been very interested in this topic. You guys (ladies) are doing a great job at helping me understand this subject matter. Thanks!
The affirmative care was a success but the patient committed suicide.
Don't nitpick. A win is a win.
(What do you expect, in an area of """medicine""", where THE GOAL, that the field defines as "a success" is starting off with a child in 100% perfect health, with ZERO empirical evidence of any health issue at all... and transforming them into lifelong drug dependent, permanently relieved of reproductive capacity, AND sexual function, likely missing one or more perfectly healthy body-parts, and suffering with a laundry-list of permanent drug side-effects... AND with a significantly raised risk of suiicide?
Hippocratics oath, you say? "First do no harm", you say? Nope, never heard of it...)
I always love Eliza! When my son came to me with this I dove into Reddit. In the mtf subreddit they call doubt brain worms! Brain worms! I'm a lurker observer too Eliza, it is quite educational.
“We ❤us!” 😂🤣😂Great conversation. Thank you.
This cuts to the core of the Trans issue, .....the exposure of vulnerable people to the online rhetoric/ ideology.
Another great episode.
I have followed Wider Lens since the start & I must say thanks for all of your efforts Sasha, Stella & Guest Eliza.
The real life psychologist experience here has helped immensely with my own trans life. I have kept my family & have a good life.
Maya/ Sam has been a wealth of great advice as well & I still contact her to compare notes.
Must pass on my sincerest thanks, warm regards, Kirsten.
Thank you Kristen! Indeed, you've been watching and leaving thoughtful comments since the beginning. Thank you. We also really appreciate Sam's channel and insights!
23:14 So, we're literally talking about something which began as an improvised online roleplaying game; gameplay was extended into real life, including by gamification of eletive medical care; & our laws and institutions have been warped so that everyone has to play the game, and the rules are against most of us?
My early 20’s child has framed this as “embodiment goals” for several years now. She knows she won’t pass, but she still wants to medicalize. No one will see her as a man, (she’s petite and feminine looking) but she still wants to play this lethal game of “pretend.”
I was just dealing with this same thing with a friend. I was warning her of the risks of a double mastectomy and what would happen if she regretted it, how much worse the dysphoria would be, and she said "well, even if I did live as a woman, I would prefer to have a flat chest"
I was just about to tell her "flat chest in ordinary English means small breasts, not surgical scars", but before I could say anything she blocked my phone number and every account on social media.
@@sameash3153 She doesn't want to hear a voice of reason.
Yes, there seems to be a real movement of young women happy to be seen as a Transman rather than a man, they are even offended if not recognized as such. So they don’t really want to be truly male and all that entails yet want to be in a place that constantly says “I am rejecting what I believe womanhood to be”.
Awesome discussion! Eliza is so sweet and dedicated! ❤
I hope the movement don't double down on even more body modification, it's immoral to put any body/mind through that!
Though it would be interesting but very abhorrent to observe.
Thank you for this great interview. Eliza has so much to offer this very complex space. Her approach of studying all players involved is unique and so appreciated. The trans alter- spot on.
Sometimes this work is nothing short of daunting to save these kids as the bigger picture appears to ever change and devolve.
But I have no doubt in the end, the better of humanity will and our efforts will prevail.
Hi Lisa, yes we thought so too on the "alter" concept!
It was so lovely to talk to you both
Thank you for this interesting podcast!
First of all: English is not my native language, so please forgive my bumpy expressions. I want so say, the concept of the "trans alter" is really fascinating! I recently read the biography of the Transwoman Lili Elbe, formerly Einar Wegener, (titled "Man Into Woman", first published in 1933), whose life was the template for the film "The Danish Girl".
The book consists of diary entries, letters and the narration of the biographer, who was a friend of Lili, and you can see this splitting of Einar into the two personalities/identities perfectly. Finally Einar had "to die" so that Lili could be born, and there was nothing left of Einar in the end. Lili saw herself as a completely different person, even some of Einar´s memories were gone.
I would love to learn much more about this splitting, this "trans alter"!
@ Stella and Sasha, maybe you can invite an expert on this topic someday?
Fascinating conversation. 46:49 - really interesting how's she noticed a parallel between anorexia on line groups 'accepting ' folks w/o the medical stats that fit actual anorexia, much in the same way w/ so called experts 'validating' and 'affirming' anyone claiming sex dysphoria and approving them for surgery w/o checking for other conditions such as Autism, depression, etc...
After listening to the misandrist claims made by women on this channel its very reassuring to hear Eliza's awareness that men are not the agressors and perpetrators of rhis. People of both sexes have a lot to win and a lot to lose through trans rights activism.
I'm glad Eliza mentions the small community of mtfs at the dawn of the internet when social media wasn't even a thing, in the late 1980s, early '90's. A lot of them seem to have been socially awkward, 'nerdy' techie types. I don't mean this in a negative way or to push gender stereotypes, but it's fascinating that natal males involved in computers, a stereotypically male activity, were using this medium to take on female identities and socialize as women long before the medium really supported social activity of any kind. I mean back then there was almost no graphical content, it was mostly just textual files and aliases. And yet here you had a thriving transgender community, before the internet became a real thing, before transgender was on people's radar.
Thank you Eliza! You presented some viewpoints that I had not considered before.
47:00 Affirmative care as a belief system that can survive contact with reality
22:33 could we please call it by what taste it also has: it's a virgin subculture. Sexual experience would bring a very important shift of perspectives and self actualisation. For some, not all for sure..
This isn’t quite true. These nerdy-type men are often married and transition later in life. They have sexual experience.
@@StormBringer5 can you please read my post to the end? And thoroughly. Thank you.
Eliza is fantastic and so honest.
So nice to see rational talk on this subject. There are so many valid concerns about affirmative care and medical transition, but too many times it turns into fundamentalist preaching on one side and shouts of "Transphobic bigot!" on the orher.
There are quite a lot of interesting discussions, but all are dismissed as transphobic unfortunately. czcams.com/video/WejfXjzFaMI/video.html One of my favourites.
2015 was an odd year…
1:04:00 "it seems like they are in different universes". Yes. It's all about different truths. This comes from postmodernism. James Lindsey is an expert on this.
❤ one of the very best presentations.
This was a great interview. Eliza is very impressive. I'm a retired clinical psychologist (therapist) and also a retired university professor. I just wanted to say that in the second half, the discussion about the "alter" really started to sound like she was referring to a dissociative state, possibly in a pathological sense. I'm just wondering if anyone is picking up on that. Is that a co morbidity in some cases? Is there a necessary and serious quality of dissociation in every case, or maybe the question is: in what cases? Great discussion.
Fabulous! Thank you ❤😊
great discussion
It would be interesting to know Eliza's Big 5 personality trait profile.
I'd guess she is very high in trait Openess and very low in trait Agreeableness.
Welcome to the club Eliza!
Very high in openness and agreeable overall but very low in compliance, specifically.
Meat Lego -Mary Harrington's shorthand for the trans-humanist attitude to the human being.
37:00 The subreddit title of "ACTUAL detrans" is kinda telling- I'd never heard of THIS specific subreddit... But I'm familiar with reddit internal politics (well, from 5+ years ago; haven't used the site in ages), and what a sub named "ACTUAL [x]" signifies.
It's always been common to have splinter-subs pop up, especially for popular or contentious issues... But it's ALSO common for the splinter-sub (which is usually more radical, often a "free speech" alternative to the main sub, for users to escape the ideological control of Reddit power-mods, who are VERY "woke", and either trans, or handmaidens) to be the target of hostile take-over, by the exact power-mods, that users seek to escape.
So there's a long tradition of the splinter-sub being named "ACTUAL [whatever the main sub is]". I believe the first time this precedent was set, was for r/lesbians... Which was a sub for "lesbian" p0rn, in classic Reddit style. So real lesbians wanted a serious lesbian sub, they made "r/ActualLesbians"... Which was the FIRST, in a near-infinite string of lesbian, or more broad woman-focussed subs to be aggressively taken over by "trans-women".
There's a list of all these subs that got ideologically-cleansed by Reddit's mtf powermod mafia, which was doing the rounds a while back- Dozens of subs for anything that turned out to have a mostly-female userbase, from dozens of lesbian subs, to all the gender-critical subs, to random stuff like subs for certain videogames with mostly-female fan-bases, subs for gardening, fashion, crafts, whatever; ANY subreddit that was mostly used by women, got targeted the mtf mafia.
Especially any sub with that "actual" prefix, because that usually symbolizes an opposition to Reddit's status quo, and the kind of WrongThink that powermods can't tolerate.
Like I said, I'm not specifically familiar with r/actualdetrans.... But just that name, and the politically-loaded subject matter makes it virtually inevitable that the sub STARTED as a "free speech" sub, probably with a "gender critical" community... And then suffered the usual hostile takeover, where a single power-mod weasels his way onto the mod team, often using a sock-puppet account. Then uses backroom politics to de-mod as many of the original mod team as possible. And then slowly start installing their buddies, until they have majority, and can "clean house", and ideologically cleanse the sub's userbase.
Thanks for this. We're aware that in some other communities "actual" is created for people who self-identify into the relevant category. For ex, we understand that "actual ASD" was developed by those in the neurodivergent/disability rights political movement.
43:00 Handling parents
If only we could have all just been content playing Oregon Trail…
19:17 «beautiful blue dome»
forgive my ignorance, but is the library of congress inside the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul?
The Library of Congress in Washington DC has a copperclad dome. Due to weathering the metal has a milky turquoise look to it.
To put "coaching" in context, the remit of psychiatry, and this was about 50 years ago but carried on for many years, was to limit the numbers of people transitioning, regardless of how the individual experienced their gender or distress with it. Historically it is said to have resulted in people "coaching" others in what to do to access treatment, although I've never really come across it in reality, except in the context of non-binary people having to "lie" about their gender in order to present as a binary identified transsexual for access to treatment. The reason people did this was because the gatekeeping was purley arbitrary, usually based on how you "pass", but also because trans people were battling physical dysphoria and being denied treatment would make thier lives incredibly hard.
This isn't the case today, and certainly hasn't been the case in the last 12 years since I transitioned and have been in many trans community support groups. People who are considering transition are often highly introspective and many read deeply across multiple disciplines including law, psychology, psychiatry, biology, and endocrinology. Trans people are very aware that not everyone experiences the same levels of distress with their body, and that everyone has different solutions to it. Rather like "gender: A wider lens" there is a lot of conversation that's just people chatting, they also play games, navigate their social and financial context, and also talk about cisgender supremacy, and the way that cis people dictate trans people's lives and access to healthcare and their rights in society.
The reason that people distance themselves from negative people really isn't a pathology, there's no sinister cult work going on, it's basic psychology. Why would you surrround yourself with negative people, and those who make you feel bad about yourself? Transition isn't easy, and people often find that others treatment of them changes, sometimes incredibly badly, and often people who are transitioning want to hold on to those relationships because they value them greatly and don't understand why they are being treated badly - it's a very common experience and you learn that you can't change others bias and dislike of you, so it's better to move on and find positive healthy relationships. It's common sense mental health that I'm surprised the commentators can't see, and paint as some kind of malign cult-like behaviour. I guess you have to have the insight of being treated radically different because of a changing characteristic (such as coming out as gay, for example especially in the 1980's/1990's) to clearly understand how this works.
I noticed that "psychosis" was mentioned again (very common for psychoanalysts to do so and step far outside their scope of practice), and it clearly demonstrates how little people know about psychosis and how it is easy to clearly delineate psychosis from GID, given how psychosis presents. Maybe do a google scholar search about psychosis presenting as transgender and you'll see that it often presents with prodromal negative symptoms and that the presentation is often bizarre, and responds to antispychotics. Gender identity is unaltered with antipsychotics.
I agree that there is a movement towards body modification / queer theory, which I'm really not comfortable with being wrapped into "being trans". Personally I fear that trans people with physical dysphoria are being lost to this, and what was essential medical treatment is being morphed into body modification, and this has profound consequences for everyone, really. I think we're rapidly moving from something that was fairly clear and easy to understand (and realise you're not) and everyone has much less clarity. HRT and surgery are effective treatments for those that need them, but will they remain effective for those whose gender identites don't match the modifications they make to their bodies? I wonder if there is any research on "body modification" satisfaction / regret, as this is where we are moving into?
You bring up many fascinating points. That's a great question about bodmod regret and satisfaction rates!
1:09:40 great point. About body mod. The argument indeed will swing to not touching the body with medicalization at all.
Because this is an invisible thing. Gender Soul. Why would not there be people who claim a different gender from the appearance of their body and demand the same rights as those who modify
History will give clues!
Actually history will give answers
This is about SOULS.
And humans have fought wars over whose souls are better than others.
If there are different souls
There are different races of souls
So one may be a souu I kid from a different galaxy
Whether or not one believes in Jesus, an adage really applies in modern times. Take the beam out of your own eye before pointing out the speck in your brother's eye. We see too many unloading disrespect, demonising and raging at others for holding a differing opinion. I wish more looked inside first and listened to different perspectives. I assume I can be mistaken in firmly held beliefs, so I listen. I find this topic fascinating because it it so pervasive that children are being exposed to and parroting language. I don't think it is possible for them to actually critically think about these very mature topics.
25:30 Online pioneers in the nineties, mostly men, tilled the fields without us noticing. Then a cohort of women grow up online, and collaborate on their own gardening projects, with men among them (passing, by avatar) exerting whatever influence…😕
So, there was a male¹ wave of this, online and in the world, then the more recent female² wave of the last twenty years?
(¹including Pie, in the UK? The acronym, not the foodstuff. Eventually the various "paths", too)
(² tumblr et aliæ, all the internets)
17:16 Or how about a limerick? Limericks aren't too short.
"phallus-preserving vaginoplasty"
What a bizarre world we live in
How many trans kids are from hyper religious families
It happens, but the majority of parents in support groups seem to be liberal or were quite liberal until this happened.
One possible explanation is that teen mental health has declined most dramatically for teen girls from liberal families. See Jonathan Haidt's most recent articles for detailed data on that.
The two people I know who were transitioned as kids are biological men and they come from highly sexist environments. One is from Tunisia and the other is from Arkansas. I also know one highly narcissistic woman who claims her daughter is a transboy now. I would say cluster b disorders seem to correlate with wanting to trans your child.
16:56 could you condense it into a bumpersticker, or a catchy meme please?
Ophelia complex
The idea of wanting to stealthy pass and dissociate from the trans prefix is the most transphobic concept imaginable.
interesting way to look at it
@@widerlenspod technically, one of you mentioned feeling it was transphobic as well but it was something that crossed my mind when someone mentioned that the term transphobic doesn't make sense because so called transphobes don't have an irrational fear.
The only people that really do are those that deny their biology for the sake of their identity. For trans-women to call themselves female, some even claiming to have a uterus is absurd and they get extremely irrational if someone calls them out as trans. Which seems to meet the definition to the T.
I get why they'd use the term based on homophobia but "transist" seems more appropriate to me. Not that I see that catching on anytime soon. Although I do feel that if we want to take advantage of the word games they play, we could unpopularize their use of transphobic by redefining it as something that only a trans person could have. Bully tactic vs bully tactics.
What does “passing” mean in this trans context?
Good question: passing is when a trans person is identified by others as the sex they'd like to be. So for example, if a young female is attempting to identify as a boy and people frequently think she really is a boy in public (due to her appearance, dress, mannerisms, etc), then colloquially we'd say that "this transman is passing".
There is an argument that some make (influenced by queer theory) that attempting to "pass" is an artifact of gender-normative societal expectations, and that one shouldn't need to "pass" to fit into society or feel "valid"
This is the argument about trans they just reinforce gender stereotypes.
She is
I am 23 minutes in and am so frustrated -- every time the guest begins to describe her research -- they interrupt her! Please be more mindful of that!
30:24 ding ding ding. Brava!
Customize your meat suit?
I appreciate both of you, but you need to learn how to interview. Stella, when your guest is talking you might as well be vacuuming the room for what appears to be your lack of attention. When your guest is talking both of you go off camera, it’s too distracting with Stella opening, closing and drinking LOUDLY from a plastic bottle. Also, get the questions to your guest ahead of time so she can be more prepared. This podcast is not a psych session but an interview. Stella, try not to act like you’re at a bar schmoozing one of the patrons. Lastly, get decent mics and sound test the guest before they come on air. The heart of the p-cast is great, the marginal professionalism and on camera shenanigans has to stop. It’s getting in the way of the interview.
28:48 if you question gender do you end up questioning sexual orientation too? Lol the "are you gay" quizes have been around for soo long 😂 I think there needs to be a concept that people understand they are responsible, as well. Don't give it all away! Or do... I don't quite understand the sorcercy when I see a quiz it appears really trivial to me! However I don't know I guess I'm "basic" there, to use slang. Maybe sorcery is a big word and yet these days with how ridiculous people have shown themselves to be. So a trivial quiz changes people... now you really have me questioning! Oops ....
I really like this channel and I hugely respect what you're doing... but please consider not going "mmhmm" repeatedly while other people are talking 🙏🏼
mmhmmm
@@kirsteneklund2509Mmm
Watch out for all these rabbit holes Eliza. Or, whatever your name is.