Asics Metaspeed Series. Stryd v. Cadence Running. Does the Idea Stack Up?
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- čas přidán 6. 07. 2024
- In this video I review Asics Concept of Stride running v Cadence Running and look at it in relation to the three series of Metaspeed Shoes, comparing the Edge, Sky, Sky+, Sky Paris, Edge Paris.
This video is part of a series of videos about the new Metaspeed Series.
I have included the Stryd Data in the links below.
As always there are chapter markers down below so you can skip through to the parts you might be interested in.
TIMELINE
00:00 Introduction
00:11 Why I made this video
00:54 Q1: Who starts fast to finish faster?
02:30 Q2:What is Cadence + Stride style running?
03:43 Q3: What does this mean in practice?
03:58 Q4: What type of runner am I?
05:02 Q5: Is the % gain equal at different speeds?
05:39 Q6: Is there more % Stride or % Cadence gain?
06:21 Q7: Is the gain equal in different shoes?
06:30 Q8: How do Asics differentiate the shoes?
06:41 Q9: Is Asics logic consistent?
09:39 Q10: What testing did I do?
11:53 Q11: What are Asics asking me to believe?
13:46 Wrap
Stryd Data:
Danu Sports Treadmill Test: Alphafly 3
www.stryd.com/powercenter/run...
Danu Sports Treadmill Test: New Balance Fuel Cell Super Comp Elite v4
www.stryd.com/powercenter/run...
Treadmill Test: Sky Paris
www.stryd.com/powercenter/run...
Treadmill Test: Edge Paris
www.stryd.com/powercenter/run...
EQUIPMENT:
Video:
Canon EOS R5
Canon Lens RF 24-105mm F4-7.1 IS STM
Canon Lens RF 100mm f2.8l Macro IS USM
Studio Audio Recorder: Zoom F3 Field Recorder
Studio Microphone: Deity S-Mic 2S
Recorder:
Atomos Ninja V+ 8K RAW HDR monitor recorder
Editing:
Editing Software: Adobe Premiere Pro
SOUND:
All music from the CZcams Audio Library:
Intro and end music:
Goggles Extract Sound: Royale by Josh Lippi & The Overtimers
Goggles Identity by Unthink
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Details accurate as per day of posting
Thanks for watching and reading
Contact: oldman@oldmanrunner.com
LinkedIn: / barry-sheehan-61731412
Strava: / strava - Sport
Cheers Chris! I added in the data on the treadmills as I needed some form of evidence and I had that lying around as it were. I always try to compare like with like and have been doing lots of tests to compare the two across a range of speeds and terrains outside. Hopefully I will get a video out about that pronto. I really like both shoes but find the performance hard to split. What is easier to split is the feeling in each. On the Sky it feels more floaty as there is more foam below the plate. The Edge feels more in contact with the ground. Either way they are both great shoes. Keep the comments coming! I’m really enjoying the various debates and opinions.
I think stride vs cadence can be very confusing. I think what made sense when I was trying to figure it out was Sky is much more responsive and lively, where you get the benefit if you have a more powerful strike. Where each step really emphasizes a string knee drive. The sky feels very easy to hone into the marathon pace and hold it. The edge feels like it has no governor, goes as fast as you push it. But for me it's snappy so the faster I turn my legs the livelier it gets. The thing here is in the marathon I want to settle into a pace and cruise control, where the sky seems to do that for me, but getting into 5k and faster it doesn't seem to like it for me, bc I want to turn my legs faster but I can't turn as fast in the sky, whereas the edge I can, but have a harder time zoning into the marathon pace.
Now if only Asics would explain it as well as you have!
I don't know about that cadence runner versus stride runner stuff. Sounds like marketing lingo to me. I tried on both pairs at my local shop & the Sky Paris resonated with me more so than did the Edge Paris. Two Sundays ago, I started slow and finished sprinting across the finish line with another BQ. So, apparently I made the right choice. Thanks, Barry for a very comprehensive discussion. See you on Strava.
Cheers Michael. Very well done on Boston!
@@OldManRunner I greatly appreciate that, Jay. :-)
As an engineer, I enjoyed this video very much and perhaps yours is the first (only?) video deep diving into the merits of stride vs cadence argument of ASICS. Now that most parameters of the two shoes are equalized there has been finally an opportunity to look into claim in a more objective way. Thanks for the video and looking forward to subsequent videos.
Tolunay, apologies, I only saw your comment now. I wondered have I been overdoing the Asics videos but the reality is that these two shoes make things so intriguing as the only significant difference is the plate position. Another video goes live tonight. I should then get a Boston Preview video out sometime before Friday PM, at which point I will definitely have picked one because it will be in my carry on luggage, though I could still go with the Alphafly 3....!
@@OldManRunner No problem. I don't think you are overdoing. A lot of people have similar questions about these shoes and many reviews are superficial, not based on any data.
Thanks Tolunay. I made a video about the Edge Paris and I almost didn’t upload it. Turned out to be the most views in a day of any video I’ve made…
@@OldManRunner I just watched it. It is well done.
I asked a few friends to look at their Garmin / Stryd data. All had about double percent in their stride length compared to the cadance increase. I am a heel striker and slow runner but according to Asics I should have the Sky.. I have the Sky Plus and Edge Plus. True Sky Plus is much more energetic and fun but my Achilles Tendon and low calf muscle hate me when I run in the Sky Plus and are happy with the Edge Plus.
The one shoe I didn't buy was the Edge+...
Another great comparison, OMR! Thanks very much for this and similar content you put out; I really appreciate your efforts.
Thanks Jonathan! Boston here we come...!
I think I’ve said this before on your channel. I think stride v cadence are proxies for foot strike - not where, but how. If you have a relatively powerful strike and toe-off, you want a rebound to take advantage of the power. Such runners tend to be (not necessarily) forefoot strikers. Conversely, if you tend to roll through, you do better with a rocker and shoe that pushes you forward.
I’m the former. I increase both with speed. I do my easy runs in the low 160s spm, up to 200+ on 30sec hill sprints.
I got the original Edge because I thought my foot power could take advantage of the stiffness. Now, I think the Sky Paris will be better for me than the Edge.
Power vs Roll is hard to identify. Stride vs cadence is relatively easy with modern running watches.
I get the conceptual difference between the Stride and Cadence and as you say for a lot of runners it is easy to figure out. My guess is most buyers don't have time or interest for all of that. I also don't see how the technical details in the shoes, particularly in the Edge keep changing, all while trying to stay true to the argument.
Always go by feel... even when it comes to marketing 👏👏👏
You're my weekly dose of running reportage, Barry 🙏
Your form looks strong in those treadmill clips @OldManRunner = GO well in Boston!
As a relative marathon novice, I have come to understand that positive, even and negative splits, CANNOT be viewed in isolation from relative effort, sometimes referred to as RPE. The relative effort required to maintain even pace after 35Ks 💪💪💪 of a marathon is very different to the running effort at 5Ks 🤏🤏🤏
Hey Bartek, just dropping a line to whinge n' whine a bit😑 'cause my big 50k trail race that had inspired me so much that I had been training for it for TWO YEARS will finally be this coming Saturday ... and I've been down and out with bronchitis for 2 weeks!!!🤦♀My own stupid fault as I left my gear in my friend's car during my last big trail race in the rain and mud and cold, but she finished way behind me, so I was shivering wet through for over an hour after the race🥶 the lungs started burning the very next day and slowly but surely I got progressively sick over the following week! Well, lesson learned, that's for sure!!! I just started trying to run again a bit a couple of days ago and I figure I can go enjoy the gorgeous French springtime out in nature anyway as the weather will be good and it's sooooo gorgeous out in the forest right now AND the cut-offs are very kind too (33.5km 5.5hrs, 38.5km 6.5hrs, finish 8.5hrs) so I can just jog/fast walk and get it done! I'm kinda looking at it as mental endurance training ... it'll be a challenge for sure , not the one I hoped for but another kind of challenge!!🤷♀💪🏃♀💪
Cheers Bartek. All my fitness metrics are pointing in the right direction and I got a lot of confidence from the long run at the weekend. I know I can get to the top of Heartbreak Hill in good shape, Then I just have to 10k it back into Beantown...
Bev, so sorry to hear you caught an illness. All I can think of is, If Winter comes, can Spring be far behind? Best wishes with it.
@@OldManRunner THANKS Barry!!! I'm feeling really determined to tough it out!!!💪💪💪
@@bev9708 ohhh Bev, that sounds like a terribly challenging couple of weeks - I bet not being able to run felt even worse than being seriously ill - so many have said to me not to run if the illness is on the lungs - be careful in the Ultra on the trails but I'm sure you will smash it even if you still don't feel 100% 💪🤝👏🫶
I could only buy one online. Went for the Edge as I run short quick steps. I’ll see in a few days.
Great video.
Great video Barry. I've not run in my parises (is that a word?!) yet but am looking forward to it. I like what asics are doing by having 2 super shoes that have different feels to them - a bit like nike with the VF and AF - but i agree the stride vs cadence thing is a bit overblown and not well supported by data. One thing, that I'm sure you are aware of, is to be careful when comparing data between treadmill runs at the same speed. Because speed = cadence x stride length (x some conversion factors) you have linked your cadences and stride lengths for these runs. I think you understand this because you talk about the *percentage* change in cadence and stride length to go from 8kph to 12kph. Also, as these are "marathon" race shoes, I'm going to assess them mostly at my marath9n pace rather than my 5km pace 😀, especially as my percentage stride and cadence changes are vastly different at around 5km pace and around marathon pace. (Note, this whole comment is not meant in any way as criticism, I'm just trying to add to the debate in as data driven way as i can)
Great video. I have been watching your videos and the other reviewers about the differences between these two shoes. I came up with this conclusion based on everything I am hearing. I may be wrong: If the plate is closer to the ground (less foam under the plate) the shoe forces you to take more steps because it is snappier and more responsive (less time between the toe off and the next foot strike). If there is more foam under the plate (Sky Paris) there is more bounce and energy return due to the foam. It forces (or assists you) you to take longer strides to go faster. One could argue for this reason the Edge Paris might be a better choice for 5/10K races. It is definitely a great choice for a marathon as well. In my own personal experience I am more energy efficient if I use strides to go faster for longer runs.
These are interesting ideas and are logical. My experience in both shoes is that the differences are very hard to pick out when running and with the overall quantity of foam being the same, that is probably to be expected. I certainly cannot get any significantly differnt results in tersm of stride and cadence when running in them, but accept that there may be different speed windows that I am not operating in. I really am loving each of them and all the fun of figuring them out...
Fantastic video. Just great. One Point: Let’s getaway from “more testing” when will it end? 😊 And thought that your Kendal nutrition flasks would maybe work on Satisfy half-tights for Boston or Nedao from China or MilerRunning from NY? Just check it. Best of Lucks on Your Tapering. Thanks!!!!
Rajkumar, thanks as always for the heads up on the shorts.I hade not heard of Nedao and they look very interesting. I have tested many shorts for Boston. I need to keep the Hydrapak upright as otherwise the liquid can spill out under compression, so am going with some Janji shorts I have used before. The tapering is going well...very easy! I have been making a long video about my preparations for Boston. It is not finished yet, I fly Friday and I will upload it before then, but after the usual video time when I will be doing an initial review of the Edge Paris. It is almost identical to the initial review of the Sky Paris, and I am doing another testing 5 shoes video, for some stage, and then it is all Boston...
Janji is great. Can’t wait for the Boston preparation video. Hope you get to connect with YT/IG reviewers in Boston during shakeout runs. Safe travels to and fro. Thanks!!!!
I tried the Paris , it’s amazing 😮
Which one though?
I couldn't tell you the amount of times I said the Sky Edge and the Edge Sky or the Paris Sky etc. instead of the correct name during the making of these various videos...both great shoes...
Are you going to do a video about Danu? I'm interested to see what that is about.
Alan. Sorry. I only saw your comment now. Yes. I tested the Danu sports system a few weeks ago, before I got wrapped up in the Asics and Boston stuff. I plan to compare the data you can get using their system, with the consumer Stryd footpods. Oisín Lennon is one of our graduates
Interesting de-bunking, thanks. It would be good to see if the urban legend of Edge = heel striker ; Sky = the rest, holds more truth/science to it. Saying this I don’t doubt in lab conditions with pro athletes there is some truth to ASICS marketing…it’s fine margins for the thoroughbreds versus us donkeys..
I guess my issue is that there are two great shoes, mostly bought by runners without access to labs and detailed testing. I just wish they were accurately described.
I don't think it's about "stride or cadence" or abouth "heel, midfoot, forefoot strike" but about "cangaroos vs tires", or jumpers vs rollers. It's about impact force conservers vs impact force minimizers.
Cangaroos/jumpers/impact force conservers seek to jump as far as they can, they don't mind "wasting" or rather storing energy in vertical oscillation and they don't mind incurring higher impact forces, because they seek to optimize energy return from impacts with elasticity (endogenic tendo-muscular elasticity and now, recently, exogenic sole-derived). It's not necessarily a more EFFICIENT style calorically, but looking at top athletes, a more EFFECTIVE style, given we're bipeds and thereby bound to an erratic, non-continuous functional element.
"Tires" or rollers seek to almost roll along, minimizing impact forces and vertical oscillation. An optimal style calorically per kg and km, EFFICIENT indeed, but not necessarily more EFFECTIVE as in time per distance.
Now, supershoes ultimately seek to make us superhuman functionally, they seek to transplant either elasticity for impact force retention or functional pseudo-roundness or gait for impact force minimization.
Do your want to profit in efficiency or effectiveness? What is your limiting factor, what's low hanging fruit? Importantly: Do you stand to profit more from reinforcing stylistic strength or compensating weakness? At what paces do you even have which strength or weakness?
Pro athletes are so fit, they can focus on tjransplanting effectiveness, even in marathon distance. Us mortals have to arbitrage. The further the race and the lower the fitness, the more athletes profit from efficiency transpants.
That said, I'm not sure there really is a trade-off at the end of the line in some distant future. Why shouldn't it be possible to build a shoe that minimizes vertical oscillation (transplanting gait "roundness" and horizontalizing movement) while also minimizing biomechanically irreducible residual vertical impact force waste by conserving as much of it as possible ( via material elasticity)?
Shoes will never be bicycles, which achieve almost complete horizontalization of our movement vector. Individually, our transplants should always attack the next biggest chunk of energy waste. I have a high cadence and want higher stride length, so I chose the Sky.
All of this makes perfect sense to me, as did picking the Sky Paris, my only problem is I prefer running in the Edge Paris...both great shoes though and very little between the two for me...
Great review Barry
I bought the Asics marketing and got the original Edge.. didnt feel like a supershoe to my old lab rat.
I found the sizing poor too so didn't bother wth the '+'
Ive watched alot of videos and gone with Edge Paris
I'm a cadence / heel striker with lower vertical oscillation with increased pace.. my target distance is 5K ( have yet to find any health benefits from running marathons )
Very early analysis of the shoe is that its the closest shoe Ive seen to the original vaporfly V1...
Theres a shoetuber called Sagasu.. i think his analysis of the supershoe 'types' has come closest to identifying which one will 'feel' right for your running preference
Cheers Mark! I keep meaning to test 5k shoes. I ran a 10k in my Nike Streakfly's and was surprised by them, in a positive way! I have about 10 videos in planning and sometime I am hoping to do one on some Streakfly testing. Have two more to go on these Paris shoes. One a review of the Edge and one going through all my performance testing and analysis. Will watch Sagasu when I get done!
I'm not sure if that link will work 🤔
But if not then search Sagasu Running.. ASICS metaspeed which one is right for you
He's a product designer
Definitely worth a watch 😊