What should David Ortiz's induction into the Baseball HOF mean for Bonds & Clemens? | First Take
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2024
- The First Take crew debates what David Ortiz headlining the Baseball Hall of Fame induction ceremony means for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.
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Her face when Mad Dog starts talking! 🤣
Honestly, great take and both make valid points.
I'm just glad they're talking baseball lol
Barry Bonds was a Hall of Famer before steroids. He turned into a God after. By far the best Baseball player of all time! The best 5 tool player of all time! My god, look at his walks and still hits .370. Unreal. Does steroids give you an amazing eye at the plate? Or hand/eye coordination?
He was the reason I became a baseball fan. He brought MLB to the apex of popularity.
Now baseball back to pre-steroid era in popularity.
Bonds was a create-a-player with a 99 in every category. Yes he took steroids. I would too after seeing a scrub like sosa become a mvp.
doesnt matter still cheated
@@stingrey1571 LMAOOO facts
When did Bonds ever test positive? If he did, please.....someone remind me? I was born in 85 so I remember this era very well!
Everyone knows he took HGH which got to his head.
He tested positive in 2003
Not only did he test positive he straight up admitted to using the clear. And look at the man's head
@@UnbreakableKDL kinda a trick bag the clear was for the bone on bone in his knee it didn't help him become the only player in history with 500 HR and 500 SB
I love these excuses, and I'm someone who think Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter ever. As if the obvious wasn't enough, the obvious being what we saw with our own two eyes, the 30 for 30 on the BALCO scandal entitled "JUICED", shows PAGES of evidence that document Bonds' drug regimen and schedule. Unless Victor Conte wrote those detailed records by mistake or to frame Bonds for some unknown and unprovoked reason, then we all know Bonds took PEDs.
Unfortunatelythe Baseball HoF has lost all credibility at this point. I agree mostly with Mad Dog, but the fact that they've allowed so many players of that era into the Hall just makes them look worse.
Personally I'm of the belief that if you cheated your whole career like Canseco, McGwire, Sosa, or got caught multiple times like A-Rod, you should not be in the HOF. But if you did it once, even for an extended period of time, if you have HOF career before steroids, you should be in the HOF. So Bonds and Clemons should be in the HOF.
A-Rod had a HOF career before he got caught too. Doesn't make sense getting caught twice or once cause most of these guys ended up with proof they were juicing multiple seasons so might as well have been caught 70 times for a lot of them.
You can't say Bonds and Clemens get in and A-Rod doesn't. They are in the same boat. Generational, elite players without drugs --- insane, record-book breaking players with drugs.
@@LysergiCoyotl Clemens and A-Rod and Bonds not only took steroids, they lied about not taking 'em, and threw their own relatives under the bus rather than admit to it (Mack took the 5th). But none of them apologized, although A-Rod pretended to; but he's a weasel, and just watching him you can tell why all his teammates hated him.
Character matters.
I'd be willing to forgive just about anything in sports if it was followed by a real apology, but these guys probably never apologized for anything in their lives, or felt badly about anything they've done in pursuit of their ambitions.
They were all great players for sure, but their lack of integrity and honor should keep them from getting a plaque and a bust in Cooperstown, I reckon.
and along those lines, being a sweet guy shouldn't get you IN, the way it seemed to have just worked for Big Papi. Just cause he is so much more likeable than ARod, in reality he cheated just like ARod, and in reality ARod was the far better ballplayer, so it's really silly to let Papi in but not other PED users.
@@LysergiCoyotl Honestly that's a good point. I hadn't thought about it like that. Maybe ur right.
@@twfujii60 Then scrap a bunch of names off the list because plenty of the players inducted were definitely not sweethearts. There are plenty of names that have admitted to using and they’re still in.
I think I just fell in love with this white woman 😂 she made so many valid points about the hypocrisy of the mlb hall of fame
I fell in love three weeks ago
You both Should Be in love With Molly.😘😘
@@jamesnelson5618 Na she’s annoying and always interrupts the debater’s.
@@NelsonSequeira23 then How about Jenna Wolfe then that sound Abit better.
I would go with Charly Arnolt
Congrats!! Ortiz
Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame!!
Pete Rose needs to be in the HOF. It's a joke that he is not in.
You can't tell the full story of baseball without the homerun king
Both the Home Run King and the Hit King never DH'd an at-bat in their lives. David Ortiz did nothing but DH... and got away with it.
The cheater lol
I can easily tell the story with out bonds in the HOF.
@@THEJOEBECK no you can't
@@deweyfinn1497 I sure can. My view of him is different than yours. Get over it, son.
You can't keep people out of the Hall of Fame for their opinions, Courtney. I'm Black & even I think it's ridiculous. I do however think that if they let cheaters like David Ortiz in, then you gotta let Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and Clemens in.
She wanted woke cookies. I'm sure twitter was happy
Bonds was a hall of famer without the steroids. He should be in.
First of volve this dudes a liar call em mad liar Bonds never failed a drug test baseball wouldn’t recognize him as home run champ if he hadn’t passed all checks and standards. He’s the best!
Bonds is a well known cheater who used steroids, people know this even if he was never linked to a failed test.
@@Thegigachad248 You living in fairytale land people know fact not fiction
Excellent excellent take Courtney!!! Courtney made an extremely valid point(s) and Chris Russo completely avoided her points because it's the mentality of people like him who are denying great athletes HOF induction based on how they feel about that athlete instead of based on their performance on the field. They should induct all of those asterisk players if you can reward noted racists. And I think the peers of professional athletes should decide whether or not an athlete gets inducted and not from people who never played.
How many athletes do you think goes home and watches every game and analyzes how people played? Do you think Michael Jordan went home and analyzed every point guard, center, and other position players to see how good they were? When you're playing the game, you only run into several people that play against you. You don't have an accurate idea of how others really play and what their stats say. You think athletes are some smart people that can see numbers and analyze things? no bro. We have sports and numbers nerds that crunch numbers and compare in many different ways to come up with rankings and stuff.
You shouldn't reward cheaters sorry
MLB literally inducted a steroid user in the HOF who was a media darling Big Papi a HOF player but he's also a cheater. To be honest Arod would've got a pass too but he kept pissing hot .Bonds never failed a test but was a target of a hit piece and book and had a bad relationship with the media. It's blatant bias because of off the field he hurt their feelings.
I can't agree with the "cheater" argument anymore. Baseball is full of cheaters, what level of cheaters are we talking about? I mean everyone hands is dirty from the steroid era. Writers, owners, radio, TV, etc. Everyone got rich, including Chris. Now the players are the only ones that are punished
Put em all in! After all, it's just a hunk of metal right? -Rob Manfred
My thing is if you took steroids and hit home runs you still needed to actually put the skill in to hit the home runs. It’s not like you take the steroids and it instantly makes you better at baseball.
Skill yes, but over time, it sure does, just like most anything else. You think any of them that took it just did once or for a couple months?
Exactly... Just ask Jose Canseco brother 😩😂
In the whole history of baseball before the steroid ear, one guy hits 60 hone runs and another battles all season to ekk out 61. Then all of a sudden you have a couple guys hitting 66, 70, 70 plus in a year? Something here just doesn't add up. It sure seems like steroids makes players into better hitters. Now this brings up a whole moral issue. Perhaps they should just let everyone take whatever the heck they want to and level the playing field that way....? I mean better food and better exercise makes one better to, but they are obviously not banned. Where is the line drawn and why...? If you could take something that will make your eyesight better, should that be banned? What about eye surgery...? It's a tricky question that isn't black or white....
They were already good when they took steroids tho. So it’s not like they were from nothing to something. That’s never gonna happen. It ain’t magic. Don’t vouch for steroids
It means two things......1 it's another example that the HoF has absolutely no credibility and 2.....allowing a P.E.D. user to get in on the first ballet opens the door for other P.E.D. users to finally get in.
Both make good points. I respectfully disagree with Mad Dog on his point saying the committee won’t let Bonds and Clemens in. I believe eventually that the veteran’s committee will put them in the hall of fame because as time has gone on there’s been a thawing amongst the hall of famers and older hall of famers have since passed on and younger hall of famers are brought in like David Ortiz Saying Bonds and Clemens belong in the hall so I believe the veterans committee will put both bonds and Clemens in and once they both get in and it’s inevitable they get in because of the greatness relative to the era, it’ll pave the way for Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez to get in and for all these writers who didn’t vote for PED players saying you know what I’m gonna set aside that question and just vote for the best players.
The old adage in baseball has always been "If ya ain't cheatin ya ain't tryin." Now if you wanna live in a world using rose colored glasses and make believe this isn't the case then I guess you can do that.
No one who was primarily a DH for their career should be in the Hall of Fame. The risk of colliding with another player in the field is part of the game. That's just me. Pete Rose, Mike Schmidt, Barry Larkin, Barry Bonds, Chipper Jones, et al never DH'd an at-bat in their lives.
Put them in
"When Alex Rodriguez comes up for his chance to get into the Hall of Fame" Err...did someone not notify her that he was on the ballot this year?
PEDs were in baseball long before steroids as well, steroids will definitely help you recover more efficiently and quicker and build muscle better but they don’t help you be a better hitter. No one ever wants to mention rampant amphetamine usage otherwise known as “greenies” that guys were taking like m&m’s that’ll actually help your focus which helps you see a pitch even more clearly actually helping your eye on the ball or for pitchers helping you zero in on the spot. There are countless players who have taken things to help them get ahead in the HOF. If you’re going to use cheating as the basis to not let Bonds, Clemens and others in then there should be a lot of people taken out.
The Steroid Era saved Baseball
I’m 100% agree with her MLB create that I created this monster now I got a live with it
Barry hit Homer's with Juiced up pitchers throwing at him...it evens out. Hof before & after alleged use.
She's wrong, not everybody was doing steroids in that era. And besides, the number of occurrences does not mitigate the offense; does robbery become less of a crime the more it happens?
Also, she said players should be in the Hall because, even though they cheated and took steroids, their accomplishments merit it. Should a thief get to keep the money they stole because, even though they broke the law, they accomplished the heist?
Her reasoning is childlike, and the position that they should be in the HOF needs a better advocate.
Bonds or Clemons never popped. Big Papi did. The writing of innuendo that you took steroids with no proof is guilty lol Steroids don't give you hand and eye coordination to hit a baseball. Treating the media bad cost players in baseball it's not about on the field. Ortiz known cheater but he treated media nice let's put him in as a first ballot primary DH lol baseball writers are jokes Griffey didn't even get in unanimously.
Definitely damages the reputation of the HOF more to allow Ortiz in. Shows that it is more about social politics and favoritism than credentials and solid lines in the sand regarding non-cheating or cheating.
Popularity goes a long way in life.
@@tainanking surely it does but it doesn't mean it's right when Credential-Based Merits are awarded based on non-credentials 😉
@@LysergiCoyotl bottomline is that ortiz has a good rep regardless. Others don't so that surely plays a role.
@@tainanking no not regardless lol. He has a good rep as a likable guy, but he also cheated and got caught cheating with PEDs just like ARod and Clemens and Bonds and etc, he just is a nice guy and apparently has the graces of the voters.... that's the facts
@@LysergiCoyotl yes you just agreed with me. So yes, regardless. whatever it is, your guys ain't in the hall and he is. Get with it
Pete Rose should be in WAY before any player who did steroids
Agreed. But IMO, all of them should be in the HOF
@@yashtalaulikar3727 no they don't
Mad Dog.doesnt even acknowledge her argument at all about the double standard of electing Ortiz. He just repeats the same argument, "HE CHEATED!"
Mad dog sucks on this show
@@bossmon8650 not so much compare to nick wright.
Her argument was dumb that's why
@@soda8736 how
@@TheOldSchoolGamer93 because comparing someones personal beliefs vs someone cheating the integrity of the game is different.
Dont forget that Bud Selig benfitted from the Steroid Era and yet made the Hall of Fame and gave him a free pass
Ty Cobb wasn't actually a racist
This not issue let them in we all loved at that time
You are EXALTED into the hall of fame. Bonds records are still told in the history books in the Museum in Cooperstown. He decided to cheat to get a $100 million contract when he saw Mcguire and Sosa; good for him! But he should not get rewarded with a plaque
Let them all in. They are pinnacles of the game. I don’t think off all time greats without them. Move on everybody did it I then
That whole era was on steroids Russo, can’t pick and choose. If u ain’t gonna put Barry and Roger in the hall cus there numbers are tainted, then u need to wipe every record from that era. That means every World Series champion, mvp etc. we don’t know who was doing what. Like I said u can’t pick and choose what is legit and what is not. If u ain’t ready to do that, then u gotta put in Barry and Roger.
Mad Dog has no idea who did what. Pudge and Bagwell got into the hall and they had the same suspicions. I like Ortiz but you can’t say he would have been this or that with or without drugs that everyone used. Bonds had numbers that were far beyond power numbers.
Numbers are solidified they aren’t going anywhere regardless of drugs
I have a problem with these baseball HOF voters,they vote Big Papi to be in the HOF who was positive for steroids but Bonds never got a positive And is probably the best players in history.And Mad Dog saying that Bonds cheated is “blasphemy” show us the proof he took steroids.I’m not saying he didn’t take something but the reality is that there is no evidence
That lady has to get fired if she was a police chief she'd let criminals out of jail
He should say how he did HGH and other players who did should be in the hall of fame
Amphetamines in the 60s and 70s were just as prevalent as steroids in the 80s and 90s. How many complaints do you hear? Did you even know about it?
exactly!
courtney actually kinda hot lol
Very beautiful
If you are going to hold Schilling’s off the field antics as a reason to not put him in the HOF then you have to hold the same standard for Bonds and Clemens
Idk who the other analyst is but her take was great.
Her name is Courtney.
Courtney Cronin
This is what I personally feel. You know how in football Bill Belichick's defensive gameplan for the New York Giants against the Bills from the Super Bowl in '91 got put in the HOF, but he hasn't yet. Let's assume that Belichick never won six rings or became this hall of fame coach. His gameplan would still be in the hall of fame. In the same way, I feel like you should take every thing in the careers of Bonds and Clemons that was pre-steroids, and put that in the hall of fame, but everything after, either put an asterix on, or not induct at all. So basically you are honoring Bonds and Clemons career to a degree, but they themselves are not fully inducted into the HOF. It's a good middle ground that I think both players would be willing to accept as a sort of punishment while still having part of their career honored at the highest level.
Barry Bonds the Goat, they just want Babe Ruth to hold the title......
Hey bro missing the point the major baseball league they told his people to pitch them to keep the integrity of the game of high it was in the ground
Nothing him going in has nothing to do with Barry but if Alex gets in first year then yes
Just include them with asterisks
They'll probably only start letting these guys in now because the sport is dying. Zero interest. Nobody talks about it. The asterisks will still remain because nobody was apologetic about what they did. Ask other players if they thought Ortiz was using. I bet alot of people would say yes even if he denies it to his grave.
They both made good points. What is her name?
Courtney Cronin
Throw steroids out and Bonds and Clemens were way better players than Big Papi or Harold freaking Baines. They absolutely should be in
Put Bonds in, but take his home run record away.
Steroid era saved baseball
So Mad Dog saying Ortiz should not be in HOF? Ortiz failed the test too yet he is in.
I’ve never seen anyone point out who these steroid guys negatively impacted other players. Minor leaguers who never got called up (remember that not just bonds and Clemens took them), players not getting signed robbing guys of opportunities to get better or a chance, pitchers who gave up too many home runs or hits to guys they would have gotten out or just moments in the playoffs when these things happened. No would want their career affected in any way by someone else, but these guys get a pass because they were good before they took it? No, integrity of the game, some guys were clean. There’s also a guy like Fred Mcgriff who may have missed homers due to roided out pitchers over powering him more often than normal. Maybe he hits 500. Even if he doesn’t though, his standing in fans eyes would be higher if dudes off the street weren’t knocking 40 out due to hood chemicals.
There's nothing more annoying than someone with no experience in the weight room like Mad Dog talking about steroids like they're magic. They're not. Trust me. I know.
Dog mentions Griffey Jr as someone who didn't use PEDs but the numbers tell a different story his big HR years were 96-99 right in the middle of the steroid era and the Seattle locker room was full of steroid users.
Thank you!! I've been saying this forever! 56 Homer's back to back seasons in 97,98 and he missed games he was right with Mac and sosa.. 99 he missed like a month and still hit like 46 or in high 40s lol.
It’s the writers baseball hall of fame. Their hall their standards. MLB should have made their own hall of fame with different rules
I'm not pro steroids, but the picture is a lot bigger than they make it out to be. I went to high school in the 80s and one of the schools in our district had the biggest offensive line in the state. All monsters. All on a program. All on the cycle. But they were also the most pushed around because no matter how much juicing you do if you don't put in all the work and more, you'll still just be average. There is no substance known to man that can put that dog in you if it ain't already down in there somewhere.
Popularity contest that’s all
Honestly guys in the 80's were taking too, just not as many. And even in the 70's, plenty of nfl players had already been taking, and bodybuilders before that. You think players don't talk? Have the same trainers running in the same circles? PEDs have been involved in sports since the olympics and the russians, waaaaay back in the late 40's and early 50's.
Since they got caught using steroids the game of baseball got whack. Now imagine if the any of the Astros players who were stealing signs in 2017 or pitchers using spider tack will they still get inducted to the hall of fame
The baseball media is a joke…. We all know big papi was in the juice… him and manny were both on the mitchel report…but big papi gets a pass foh…. Dude got released from the twins… then all of a sudden he was Barry bonds… this is why nobody watches baseball anymore
That's a lame debate comparing 1910s to steroids era boozos
I understand that Bonds and Clemens won't get in but they had Hall of Fame stats before the steroids
As a person who grew up watching baseball, I still don’t understand how steroids makes a pitcher throw the ball better. I can see faster somewhat but more accurately? Same thing with hitting. Yeah you might hit the ball farther but how does it improve your hand-eye coordination and bat speed?
I've said this before: they should have separate stats for Steroid Era and include those ridiculous numbers from Bonds,Ortiz, Manny, Arod, Sosa, McGwire, and others, in their own era of baseball. Unless someone like Jeter and Frank Thomas is 100 percent clean, do not put them in the regular HOF. And that's what baseball HOF did wrong by adding guys like Bagwell, Piazza, Edgar and Ortiz. By adding them now, there will always be this debate.
As a avid track fan, I hate the fact that most women's world record were set by athletes on steroids. So many of track world were set in the 1980s by Eastern Europeans that we all know were cheating.
I know baseball I'd different but it's still terrible for the sport overall
I agree with keeping the racists out, but it's a bit different than steroids.
Ivan Rodriguez, Jeff Bagwell, and multiple of other steroid users got in but Bonds and Clemens can’t get in? 🤔
When your stats extremely bloat after the fact. Don't think those Ivan and Bagwell's stats just bloated all the sudden or extended their careers. If anything, shortened with Bagwell. He only played 15 seasons.
@@brianschaffer9220 Is the issue that they cheated or how effective the cheating was? 🤔
You want us to see the reality test every single player in the major baseball leagues by independent source you see how bad is the infection
Almost all pros do it unless you’re fighter stop it
Bonds > Papi Ortiz
Let's ask Mad Dog what he thinks about greenies and amphetamines that a lot of players from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s were using, cause it was rampant back then. Ask him about it and how he feels about players cheating back then.
Just another reason the sport is dying the records don't even matter the whole sports history is based on what exactly money racism cheating and not being as exciting as basketball and football that's the history
Honestly, steroids give you strength, let the great hitters in
Bonds was a Hall of Famer before he allegedly starting doing steroids.
Barry Bonds was a HOF before steroids period.
🗣💯 Shoutout to David Big Papi Ortiz! 🐐⚾️🏆
What is this woman's name? I like her take.
Courtney Cronin
Barry Bonds had HOF numbers before he started using steroids.
Baseball was always more interesting when guys were juiced. Let’s be honest baseball does not require the athletic abilities that other sports need. Mad Dog is apart of that old guard that just needs to go.
She's had a mare
Bonds before the Steroids allegations was a H.O.F . Again just cause someone took steroids, they still gotta hit the ball.
Bonds already had MVPs gold gloves before steroids was a already a HOFamer before going to San Francisco dude clearly you don't know Bonds was a numbers guy dream in baseball dude quiet down.
@markhowe they say Bonds did steroids because he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa popularity he was already more accomplished then those dudes but I really don't trust baseball writers anyway lol
And yet Bud Selig is in the Hall of Fame who benefit from the Steroid Era and made a profit, cancel 1994 season, destroyed the Expos, and the All Star Game from 2002 finished in a TIE
Steroids saved baseball after the 1994 strike
Put them in the HOF but take their records from when they were using steroids off the books. All those guys were some of the best players there ever was even before they started juicing
That reporter is soooo smoking hot🔥🔥🔥 gorgeous 😍😍😍 BUT SHE IS WRONG...Those cheaters should never been inducted in the HOF. Case closed.
Replace molly with this lady pleaseeeeeee……..
Does it make sense when she said let’s remove the old time racists from being in the hall? It’s like saying let’s not consider any American president who was a racist to be president. That list of 46 presidents would dwindle real quickly.
It goes to the morality all the Baseball writers act like it matter so much to them. It's a lot of subpar HOF in baseball that got in based on media relations but that's baseball.
Ortiz supposedly did ped's once with the Twins, A-rod did ped's with the Rangers on 2 different years and his first year with the Yankees. A-rod should not be allowed in the HOF
Stephen a smith on summer vacation??
If you're a cheat, you're a cheat. No second chances.
She’s right. It’s sanctimonious and stupid. Still watch Bonds videos. Best before he got the big head.
Steroids does nothing for your hand to eye coordination. So yea these guys may have been a little more physically stronger but they still needed the elite skill in the first place,, I think a lot of the “steroid era” guys aren’t getting in simply because quite a bit of those guys didn’t play the “media game” and were considered to be assholes
So what would have been a pop out to left field is now a home run. I think it matters
He don’t belong in the hall.
Ortiz used just like Bonds and others. Shame on the voters..
Papi didn't cheat?