An interesting question I found myself stumbling upon as I made more decks and tried out more and more cards. Moxfield: www.moxfield.com/users/PizzaD...
@joshbowdish9851 1: Ramp is ramp, and it's usually a good idea to have some extra mana. 2: Tutoring for a Sol Ring minimizes the information you leak to your opponents about your deck [due to its widespread use] 3: Decks that tutor artifacts run lots of artifacts. Artifacts typically use colorless mana to cast. Therefore, grabbing Sol Ring when you tutor an artifact makes it easier to cast more artifacts.
There's a few flaws in your argument. 1 - yes, depending on the deck and archetype, sometimes there are better things to play in turn 1, but we are playing singleton and would not be correct to expect to always have that turn 1 play. 2 - if you are not talking about a creature without haste, that spell could very well be used on your turn 2 since you are going to have 4 mana. So you could do your turn 1 and turn 2 play at the same time. Or even your turn 1 play and have your turn 3 play which sometimes could be even better. And we are not even talking about if you also have any two mana mana rock on your opening hand. Potentially 5 mana on turn 2. 3 - yeah, sol ring is so good that it could paint a huge target on your back. To some people it may be a bad thing. But not for everyone. 4 - you excluded the fact that you don't HAVE to play it on turn 1, if you really need that creature on the first turn, you can play your sol ring on turn 2 or 3. And sometimes it really is the better play because it will always catapult you ahead on mana advantage.
I feel like you're missing the point of the vid. It's contextual and you can scenario it into infinity which is why he can't answer it. There is no hard answer, you can come up with almost infinite scenarios where where its a good play and bad play. You should be thinking about whether soul ring is right for your deck, not that its an auto-include and needs to be defended. This reminds me a lot of people who run reliquary tower. Not that it's the same comparison; people just add it thinking about that one scenario where it is a great payoff- not thinking about its average impact for their deck. We just keep adding things because of the general viewpoint that it's what you do. same with temple of the false god. The whole point is to think more before you add stuff, not come up with 4 got em scenarios.
@@Joseph-fl2bb Sure but using sol ring is insane in this scenario. Some of the examples where sol ring isn't good that he gives are just bad hands? Like T1 sol ring T2 unprotected commander that's literally a vanilla piece until other things are down that people are still so scared of that they decide to use a piece of removal T2 rather than develop themselves is just a bad line. A hand with sol ring is not an instant snap keep, sol ring + 6 lands is horrible. T1 evasive beater into T2 value piece that costs 1 generic and 1 colored sounds worse to me than T1 sol ring T2 1 mana beater 2 mana value piece and keep a C floating, next turn you have 2 more mana than you should and you have the same creatures on board, you missed out on 1 swing of your 1 mana 1/1, and even if your 2 mana piece triggers off that hit chances are the effect is worse than just being up 2 mana. And lets not get anywhere close to the ceiling where you actually have a good 3 mana piece to play on t2 or where sol ring lets you ramp into more mana to make bigger plays early. If you wanna cut sol ring from your deck go ahead, I think the card is a little cringe outside of cedh/higher power edh to begin with and I don't run it in my casual decks, but if you're doing it because you think it's bad that's delusional.
@@Joseph-fl2bb No you cant there are very few scenarios where sol ring is a genuine bad card, there some scenarios where you shouldnt play sol ring for a variaty of reasons, but that just means holding it for a later turn, in his video he didnt metion a single scenario where sol ring is bad.
I think the real issue here is that after playing a turn one sol ring you are misplaying in the examples, that's not sol ring being bad, that's just bad execution.
The argument breaks down since no matter how precise you think your mana curve is, there is no guarantee you will actually draw a hand that allows you to play it out turn after turn. Its a fundamental error in the theory you apply to your deck. If your deck can be 1 card less optimized with a guarantee that you will brick less likely, its way better than to have a deck thats fully optimized but will be able to brick And no, every deck can brick
I agree with you that ramp especially Sol Ring can smooth things out significantly. But still, I got that "well actually" itch for the comment below. There will always be decks of varying power level that are exceptions to rules. 99 Land Ashling is only kind of a joke deck. Varragoth Bloodsky Sire has a very similar 90ish land combo deck floating around to Onyx/Smog.
"Every deck can brick" to an extent An optimized cEDH list will almost never hard brick internally, like its a 1 in 1000 or less chance that youll brick after mulling into a playable hand In casual yes, but when your decks so streamlined that its solely winlines and enablers only an external factor like stax can hard brick you
Not only that, but he realizes that you don't need to play sol ring turn 1, right? If you can fit in a sol ring on turn 2 to use a colorless mana instead of an unnecessary pip for your normal turn 2 play, then sol ring is literally free ramp with no impact to tempo.
as amusing as this is, if it were at all true then cEDH decks would not run it. But they all run it. Because you dont HAVE to play it on turn 1. You can play it when you need it.
I think a lot of casual players dont realize just how good sol ring is. It's so good I play it in my Hogaak deck despite the fact that mana can't be used to cast hogaak. It accelerates everything your deck does, not just the turn you drop your commander. It can make it so you have mana to play your turn 2 spell AND have mana left to answer a treat from an opponent. It's one of the best cards ever printed.
I think the real argument here is 'how' you play sol ring. The real challenge is understanding when to show value and when to become a threat. Much like cedh, and seeing your 'opportunity to win', is how you should play strong cards like this or dockside.
I agree with this argument when it comes to almost all other forms of traditional ramp. When people put out deck "templates" that say 37 lands and 13 ramp, it irks me a bit, because not all decks need the ramp. If you are playing a bunch of cards that you want to curve out on turn 2 or 3 (the most common turns for ramp), its better to actually play something like 40-45 lands and little to no ramp. The argument doesnt quite work for sol ring imo. The flaw in your thought experiment, is that you assume if you have sol ring in your opening hand as well as some useful 1-3 drops, that you HAVE to play sol ring on turn 1. If you have a good curve in your hand, there is no need to run out the sol ring early and potentially run into the issues you outlined as well as make the table more scared of you. Because sol ring still gives you +1 mana the turn you play it, there is no penalty for not playing it early like other forms of ramp. The biggest candidate for not playing sol ring is for decks that dont have enough colorless/generic costs in their mana costs. On a later turn, if Sol ring gives you +1 mana, but is also effectively changing one of your colored mana into a colorless mana, then you can run into issues if you are trying to double spell something like RG and 1GG.
Realistically no If you want to curve out on turn 2 or 3 its actually better to cut lands and play fast mana and rituals More lands less ramp makes a low curve deck incredibly bricky
You actually provided a pretty good argument against too much ramp. For example, i took almost all ramp spells out of my Kathril, Aspect Warper deck because playing my commander on turn 4 with like 1-2 keywords is nonsensical, so i'd rather spend turns 2 and 3 playing self-mill cards like Grisly Salvage or Crawling Infestation than ramp. Sol Ring is still in the deck however, as it's too good at making my setup cards come out earlier. A good reason for exclusion is that of power, which you also mentioned. Sol Ring is an insanely strong card and i don't understand Wizards' decision to make it an auto-include with so many reprints, Mana Crypt is almost identical but didn't get the same treatment. This has actually been a common topic of discussion on my friend groups' commander tables, and i hope we will all agree to exclude the card one day.
I think the idea is a very interesting concept, one that as long as you are curving out every turn with value pieces, ramp is less important. However, i think the idea breaks down in a few different areas. First, each and every commander plays their gameplan in different ways, but i like to think of commanders as fitting into one of 3 categories: engine, value piece, or wincon. Depending on the strength of something like an engine or the wincon, it may be integral to a decks success to get that commander down asap. Value pieces imo can get away with less ramp, as its more just enhancing an existing strategy, and is not a highly important part of the deck. Second, there are decks that are designed in such a way that curving out is not always possible. Reanimator tends to have wild mana curves, often with hands full of highly expensive cards looking to be binned and reanimated later on. Doesnt matter if its binned by a discard for turn, doesnt matter if its in a turn or two, aslong as it is reanimated eventually, the game plan goes on. Or perhaps take a dragons deck. Without heavy ramp, trying to curve out in dragons is nearly impossible, as the decks gameplan revolved around slamming powerful high cmc cards over and over. Last but not least, accelerating a curve doesnt mean you can never play the stuff you would have played if you didnt ramp, it instead can mean you have even more recourses to do so. If you wanted to go something like turn 1 mystic remora, turn 2 pay fish and play a 1 drop, turn 3 rhystic study (increadibly specific example, but its more to set as an example). A turn 1 sol ring means you just go turn 1 ring, turn 2 rhystic and fish due to land drops. If anything, in the vampire example, i think its moreso the commander you have chosen that may not fit being played as fast, but i know that if i have a hand consisting of value engine pieces, i want them slammed down as soon as possible in order to drown the opponents in card economy. I again wanna reiterate i like the idea, and i like it when people bring challenges to what many consider the fundamentals of magic. Critical looks at how decks are made can lead to creative decisions, and can ultimately make decks more diverse while still powerful and synergistic. I think its actually pretty valid for low to the ground, aggro decks trying to close out games quickly to not need that many resources. Who needs 20 mana when im going to pump the gas, and never let go of the throttle till everyone is dead. However, when shifting the lens from aggro to midrange or to decks designed to grind opponents out of cards, having more mana than the general mana curve can allow tends to help these decks succeed in how the decks are built.
Establishing your commander is almost always an important step to furthering your game plan and sol ring almost always assists in doing so quickly. You can also just not play sol ring t1 if there's a better option. You may want to prioritize a creature to remove summoning sickness for t2, but then you can play sol ring t2 and play a 3 drop. Additionally an exceptionally powerful play pattern is playing sol ring, an arcane signet, fellear stone, or a talisman into a 1 drop t1.
I ran into this while tweaking Henzie. He's three colored pips. He discounts generic mana costs. So I need colored pips above all else. While peeling away generic three mana ramp, I put in 1-2 mana pieces that get me colors, or some other assist. I want to be able to get Henzie out quick, and have any option in my hand ready to start flying. And I'll keep saying Leyline Immersion is the perfect Henzie card, because he becomes a mana dork with ward and can churn out some nasty things with five colored mana right now. THAT replaced my Sol Ring.
I would say the the biggest crime of sol ring is that it goes mana positive the turn you play it. As in, it is like a colorless rite of flame that did 3 lines. My main point is this: Take the Fynn the fangbearer for example, you probably do not want to turn 1 sol ring. However turn two, you might want to play sol ring, and use it to cast Fynn, and use the leftover mana for a 1 mana colorless thing. You might not have this, so you can keep sol ring for a 4 mana card on turn 3. And unlike rite of flame, which is temporary, it will help you on your future turns. To further put light to this argument, it is banned in vintage and restricted in legacy for general power level concerns. Which to me is an easy sign this card is very strong, probably on par with moxxen. Regardless, there are decks it could be bad in, but even in my 4 color Lurrus as companion deck where the curve ends at 2, it is still worth it, if I didn't cut it because I think the card is not "unique" enough. I do not think that even in a low to the ground deck, sol ring can be bad. The only reason I can see sol ring being bad is if you have no consistent use for colorless mana. As sol ring makes more mana than a normal land, and even the turn you play it, it goes mana positive just like an untapped land. TLDR: If you have a hard time using colorless mana, sol ring can be bad in that specific scenerio, in any deck that wants at least some colorless mana, sol ring is generally better than any ramp, and most lands and rituals. Its bad because: "The quality is so high it really should not be allowed in something like commander on a casual level". The quality being high and it being too strong is I think the single most backwards way of justifying something is not good. Is it fair? No, it is the power level of a mox, arguably a card on the level of the power 9. Is it really that good? Yes, it is a cedh staple, restricted in legacy for power level reasons and overall a powerhouse. All the way at the end, you bring up a deck that only wins if it is two turns ahead (provided by sol ring). I would agree that could be problematic, and might be a reason to cut sol ring, however that would be a feels concern, and not one of sol rings power level.
The thing is, in given scenario , if you have enough lands + cards to go from turn 1 to 4 and a sol ring on top of it, playing it turn 1 wont disrupt you, since you should be able to play your original turn 1 and 2 together on turn 2 because you have enough mana. Only way you wouldnt would be if you need double of one color mana plus one of the other color
It depends. Say for a turn 1 Sheoldred. I play land for turn and a Jeweled Lotus for 3, turn 1 Sheoldred & whenever a player draws a card. It's an immediate 2 damage (+ other cards like Ob Nix). If they waste a counterspell or Exile card, that's fine by me. I got a turn 1 creature and essentially removed interaction from the board
100% agree. My willowdusk deck cuts sol ring bc im making plays turns 1-4 that require only pips. It’s for the most part a wasted slot. A land/dork does more.
I have one deck that does not have sol ring. It’s 4 color omnath that cares about activating land abilities to control the game until I can reach a land-based combo. I have received multiple questions and comments on the fact that it is not there saying I am actively losing out in n power for excluding it. But I have a few reasons. 0) At the beginning it was because my deck had a restriction of “every card says the word land on it” but I since broke that rule, so I can’t use that anymore. There’s non personal-restriction reasons as well. 1) The deck is very color-specific mana hungry. I NEED green and sol ring doesn’t make that. I also run a ton of colorless utility lands, which does not help the issue. Omnath is 4 mana of specific pips. Plus needing over 70% green mana just to function. Any more colorless mana in the mix is just too tough. 2) It’s a dead draw. Late game, I might need a land to cast a spell with retrace or to trigger a tatyova. A ramp spell like explore or growth spiral gives me another shot at a land if I don’t draw one. Sol ring can’t help with that. 3) My deck is already very good at ramping on turn 2 and I have tap lands to help with my fixing. I often don’t need or want a turn one play. I wouldn’t be able to use it even if I had it because I’m trying to play a triome to get access to green and two other colors. This is a highly synergistic landscape deck that relies on a density of land-based effects to build an engine and close out games. My deck just doesn’t want the effect of ‘add two colorless mana’. It’s always a good idea to take a look at what kinds of effects your deck needs.
I also have a Marisi, breaker of the coil deck that is low to the ground and aggressive. The game plan is to make tokens and make them evasive by making extra rules for blocking. The deck has a lot of power cards in the 4-5 mana range that, if landed ahead of curve, catapult my game plan way ahead. If I’m ahead of curve, I would much rather play those than my commander. My commander needs those abilities already on the field when he arrives. This deck loves an early sol ring to help push out aggressive creatures ahead of my opponents ability to deal with them. The deck can curve out, and when it does it is a pretty brutal force. But dropping 4 drops on turn 2 and 3 into a commander on turn 4 (still on curve, probably with protection) is just as scary, if not worse. I think more than anything you have to look at your synergy pieces and how much they use colorless mana. Need to ramp out big things with 3-4 generic in their casting cost? Go right ahead. Need to hit 4 green pips by the time you have 5 mana? Probably not worth it
For Varina (tempo) if I have a 1 cost zombie and sol ring in opening hand, I'm more likely to play the zombie. Cause having as many zombies out before I play Varina is the focus. So I play sol ring on a turn that supports this.
I have a few decks that don't use Sol Ring. One is because it's enchantments, the other do to being colored mana hungry WUBRG. Another is due to a $50 budget, and it was Sol Ring or 3 other ramp cards. Excluding pauper commander, I have at least 3 decks and maybe more without it. All because of what the deck is doing. Still... it's a very good card and ought to be in most decks that would utilize it.
Sol ring is still good in all hos examples, the strefan one he explains himself in the video that the problem is strefan turn 1 not sol ring turn 2, the agressive deck example sol ring turn 1 is probably bad, but sol ring turn 2 to get a turn 3 creature on turn 2 accelerating your hyper aggressive strategy is awesome. ( in the specific case of a two mana commander with no generic mana cost, you probably want sol ring on turn 3 to get a 4 mana spell out, or two 2 mana spells. )
I feel this a little bit. I took out cultivate from my mothman deck just because it shuts out the many INCREDIBLE 3-drops that when mothman comes out the turn after, generate incredible damage or value.
Its just a situation of improving as a driver for your deck. There might be a situation whre you can either do sol ring or a one drop that actually furthers the plan, and analyzing what the sol rings mana is actually going to do for you. Sol gives 2 colorless, but its colorless. so unless theres something you can do with that colorless like playing another manarock, it might be a better turn one to play that one drop and save the Ring for turn two or three
As the resident Sol Ring hater, I took Sol Ring out of all my decks. (TLDR - it's broken and shouldn't have ever been printed). I found this extremely freeing, because I didn't have to tune my deck to the 1/99 chance of having a Sol Ring and how I'd have to twist my mana curve to capitalize on the extra mana. In my mind, if you have a Sol Ring, the next best thing to do on top of that is T1 Sol Ring > Talisman/Signet/etc. This starts to eat at all of the ramp slots. Without Sol Ring, I can just focus on like, Llanowar Elves-> Cultivate -> 5 drop, or Signet -> 4 drop or whatever the deck is trying to. This is possible because like 99% of non-sol ring cards cmc 1-3 make ONE FUCKING MANA. Except for like, Eladamri's Vineyard and Worn Powerstone. The card is simply not like the others. It's using meters and everyone else is using feet. I guess my point is it is impossible to plan around Sol Ring. There's games where you draw Sol Ring, and then there's all the rest. The math for Sol Ring games does not apply to the math for non-Sol Ring games. You can't have a curve that fully supports Sol Ring and the rest of the ramp available to you in magic. Obviously it will usually overshoot so its a bit of a first world problem but there's always that feeling for me where I didn't make full use of the card. Taking it out of all the decks really felt like a weight was lifted from the design space of all the decks because it closed off that 1% chance (i guess 8% with your starting hand) that the deck would turn into a different deck. Edit: forgot mana crypt and vault exist also. Same basic problem, but I don't have 25 of them lying around.
I don’t play Sol Ring in my new Ashling deck (from MH3) because she allows you to keep your red mana as steps and phases end. So all my ramp is red and sol ring is a pretty bad fit. It’s only use would be paying the commander tax when Ashling inevitably gets removed.
She's 4 mana though. Idk how the rest of your deck looks, but unless it's all just pips of color for your mana costs, you should be playing sol ring in there. I have 2 decks where I don't play sol ring. Hogaak, and feather. Neither can use sol ring to be cast, and most of the cards in the deck cost a pip or two and very few numbers. I think in Hogaak sol ring could help cast like 20 cards so that's an easy cut. And in feather it's even less cards it can help with.
Other than the red ramp, I mainly put speed draw, protection spells like Return the Favor, copy spells, and high mana cost, or {X} spells (including a few instants). Most spells have 2 red pips, a few have 3 but there’s a lot with a single red pip or straight up colorless spells. It’s not exactly finished yet, and I understand the argument that sol ring is an extremely fast ramp, but playing Ashling turn 2 is the best way to be an archenemy of the table, and I’d rather add one red mana that I can stack rather than 2 colorless that I have to use every turn, because it gives me more versatility in my options. Also, I’m wondering if I should add a Horizon Stone to have a redundancy for when Ashling dies… 5 mana is a pretty steep cost, but the value it brings is very interesting (I would also consider adding a bit of colorless ramp like Sol Ring, Paladium Myr and Thran Dynamo)
I stopped running sol ring in most of my decks because i tend to be low enough to the ground with my curve and hungry enough for colored mana that im usually only getting 1 generic out of an activation of it, which makes my curve feel clunky and awkward. It ultimately accelerates my gameplan by maybe a single turn at the cost of me being targeted in the early game, which is probably going to cost me more tempo than the sol ring gained me.
This thing where CZcamsrs have to """"""comedically"""""" justify themselves 10 times before saying their opinion is becoming obscenely annoying. I don't care if your opinion is good or bad, I will respect it regardless because I'm an adult.
I play an Alesha Aristocrats deck with an average mana cost of 2.57 and a Zada deck with an average mana cost of 1.88. My decks usually have low mana curves. Sol Ring is broken. Sol Ring is not Ramp, Sol Ring is fast Mana. If you can make use of the 2 colorless then it is worth it. I wouldn't play Sol Ring in a Mono Color deck where you overwhelmingly play cards that only cost mana pips. LIke White Wheenie or Elves. Otherwise: Sol Ring is broken. I mean, Land, Sol Ring, Talisman is a crazy fast start for anyone, playing a 5cmc Commander on Turn 2, or your Turn 2 and Turn 3 play on Turn 2, and having Mana up for interaction (Swords, PTE, Stifle, Spell Pierce..) on turn 1 is nothing to sneeze at either.
If your commander beeing out early doesn’t do anything then don’t play him early. In this situation where the sol ring makes you skip your turn 1 and 2 play and instead turns them into „do nothing“ turns that’s just a bad decision. You cannot judge a card based on what it does in case of a player misplaying. You don’t even have to play the sol ring turn 1. it always makes +1 in mana so you can play it at any turn you like. If you don’t want the attention early game just treat it as a ritual with upside. Anyway regarding the last point. I stopped putting fast mana in my decks long ago and also don’t play the ring anymore
I think the point of this video is to really ask the question, does Sol Ring belong in my deck and that sometimes the answer will be no. I do see the benefit to not playing it right away and jumping ahead of the curve, which wasn't really covered here. If you're playing casual commander, Sandbagging is an important and overlooked strategy. Don't be the first to jump ahead or you will be ganged up on. Sometimesz just leave Sol Ring at home. Many of your decks will thank you
I actually agree, I have found that when building my decks if my commander is 5 mana or higher, ramp is important, however any value under 5, means i can cut fast mana or the higher cost ramp. I think the hardest thing to realize is that even if you have turn 1 sol ring, your pod is going to snipe you out of the sky. Threat assessment is a much more important skill that has to be learned, even at the pods i play in, if you even think about playing slightly more accelerated, you get sent to the stone age.
A lot of Commanders cost 4 mana. USually: 2YY (Y standing for any color pip). Sol Ring turn 1 gives you access to your commander turn 2. In case of cards like Winota this is broken.
@schwarzertee7586 but again having access to your commander 2 turns before limit your plays. I wholeheartedly agree with the video, as he had said there are value pieces that could be played instead that don't make you a turn 1 target, and you have a more developed and cohesive board without it. Now in certain instances, I think you are right. Voltron commanders, or in my very specific case, my Selvala deck, need to be played early to accrue value faster, to get your game off the ground.
@@caleballen2692 I'd argue Voltron Commanders (without inherent protection like Ward) are at their worst when you put them out before any other game pieces or ways to keep them protected. Although a turn-one sol ring is still useful to Voltron as it can accelerate any equipment you may be running. I think the video should be arguing against greedy ramp rather than Sol Ring/Ramp as a whole. if you're putting out ramp just for the value and not a greater plan beyond "big mana go burrrrr" you're setting yourself up for removal. but if you hold onto the ramp for a better opportunity or use it as a tool to better prepare for your commander you'll invariably be in a better position than you would have without it.
@jonathanhilton7265 I messed up, I hadn't meant to say voltron commanders. I think I was watching something else while replying. I do agree that ramping into nothing is a bad style of play that leaves you open. Playing things on curve is so important to managing your boardstate and having the tools to remove other people's board presence, now if you play something like Xyris or Selvala or Animar who need to be on the field to accrue value as fast as possible, ramping to get them out is your best bet. There are definitely more scenarios where a rampant growth, or sol ring are misplays.
I have a Ghalta primal hunger deck that absolutely doesn't have a sol ring in it. I feel like most green makes you lean in a lot of other directions. That and artifact removal is real, people run artifact removal
I get sol ring and my opponent burns single target removal on my commander, the one card I will have access to later in the game even if they spend removal on it? Deal.
Do you think Kamiz, obscura oculus, is an example of a deck that doesn't want the early ramp since it wants to play cheap creatures then the commander?
If you know your Commander is going to be removed as soon as it hits the battlefield...just dont play it If you cant protect it? Just because you have 4 Mana doesn't mean you have to Play your 4 CMC Commander, simply play other Setup/ Playoff pieces.
Okay this whole idea that sol ring is bad , or is toooo good .... Is funny. Look some of my decks want that god hand Sol ring , signet , into 1 drop creature. Turn 2, 4 resources and commander. ( Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa ) Not only keeps me up curve but also lets me get in for early poisoning on my opponents. sol ring is bad in bad hands/draws, and Sol ring takes okay-ish hands to omg I can play that turn 2/3!!!
"This is the easiest (names a piece of target removal) I've ever seen!" It's turn 2. Have people drawn into the removal? Do they have enough mana? Do they want to use all their mana for a removal spell and do nothing on their first, crucial, turns? They remove your commander. Ouch. You still have 2 mana more than they have. If your deck plays well without having 2 mana more than the other player, injecting a bit of cocaine in the form of a sol ring will not make it worse. You don't HAVE TO cast Strefan as soon as you have the mana for him. You could cast something else first. Like the synergy pieces you need
This should have just been a series on overextension and removal. If you play your commander into removal, that's dumb. If you play turn land + 1 sol ring into 2 cmc synergy, turn 2 into 4cmc synergy, turn 3 into commander and 1cmc synergy, then you're above the curve by as much as 8 mana. Even if you skip turn 1 cause you can't play into 2 colorless, you can still cast a 4 cmc on turn 2. If you play into removal, you risk it/bait it out, or you punish those who are more casual and refuse to run any removal. Play politics so that you aren't making it 3 vs 1 by turn 3 or be prepared to end the game fast. Have removal so that an opponent with turn 1 Sol Ring isn't going to end the game. Sol Ring is bad if players are bad.
Low mana curve plus ramp means you are using a card to get ahead on mana in a deck that benifits from being able to make impactful plays on those setup turns
@@Bee-wk7hwlow mana curve + BAD ramp means that Low mana curve + the CORRECT ramp means youre absolutely in control ans are playing cards 2 turns ahead not just getting 2 extra turns worth of potential mana Turn 1 sol ring vs turn 1 dark rit
Yes. Sol ring is not worth playing in many decks. If you are mroe than two colors it does not fix anything. If you are mono color then there are better options with more impact. It really only shines in my experience in two color decks or decks with an artifact focus or playing a lot of eldrazi things. How many times have you turn 1d Sol ring go turn two land go? How many times have you kept a bad hand due to the ring?
It's not about fixing, it's about accelerating. Playing an earlier turn Cultivate or additional mana rocks in your 3+ color decks makes a world of difference.
But doesn’t pinging the table turn one without Strefan on the battlefield just mean they take damage but get no blood tokens? Why play a ping turn one if you get no blood?
This is not even an argument. Quality of cards trumps synergy almost always. Yes, some commanders force you to play worse cards, for example Kinnan, Yuriko or tribal commanders but the upside has to be so much higher for including a synergisitc card before lets say dockside, rhystic study, cyc rift, mystic remora, esper sentiel, Ranger Captain of Eos or other general very good cards. Also sacrificing your T1 for fast mana is not even an issue T1 land, Sol Ring, Talisman, Value piece (Monke, Fish, Esper for example) just brings you to your T5 mana on T2. I get that your perspective is from a low power level and that is fine but even in metas that are miles away from cEDH will you find super high impact cards.
How about an enchantress deck? There are enough options for enchantments that ramp you, and since they are drawing you like 1 or even more cards simply on cast the synergy outvalues sol ring.
@@Zumteifl Is it better to shive out two smaller or one large game warping Enchantment on t2/ t3? Is commander tax easier to pay dropping a single Sol Ring, or fishing for 2 lands?
These are all great arguments against playing too many weaker rocks, but Sol Ring is just that much better than the rest. I'm disappointed by the shallow level of analysis in this video - why can't you just play your Sol Ring on turn 2? Why is it so much better to have your turn 1 play out on turn 1 than it is to have it out on turn 2 and be up 2 mana for the rest of the game? Sol Ring, being fast mana, doesn't slow you down, and doesn't actually dilute the synergy pieces in your deck, because it generally fits into a land slot (being cheap, fast, permanent mana).
I think you made a lot of good points but I would just say that the decks sol ring is bad in are bad decks. If a small creature is that important to your game plan you are asking to be board wiped
The example you gave with Strefan and sol ring is really dumb, us as the player chose what to play if we are so ahead on mana and we know our game plan, knowing thta playing our commander is a bad idea, just dont play it and play the engine.
Any argument like this breaks completely when you are talking about “high power” a.k.a. “Not cedh”. “What’s the best way to build a not that good deck?” Is just kind of a non starter. If you mean “objectively” then look at cedh decks. I play exclusively cedh. I have seen a couple people play no sol ring in a couple decks; Yuriko and a guy who was trying to play Rakdos, Lord of riots as a cedh deck. They both ended up back on sol ring to help cast the bigger bombier things in Yuriko (you don’t actually HAVE to play sol ring turn 1. And in order to power out two mana rocks or hard cast big things in Rakdos. You are confusing these questions; 1) should I always play sol ring turn one 2) is sol ring a good card. Plain and simple. You shouldn’t always play sol ring turn one. Not in all strategies. Sol ring is a broken card and there may be literally zero decks that shouldn’t play it. But you shouldn’t always play it turn one.
Sol Ring should be banned in commander. It's boring, fits in most decks, and throws off game balance. I think the examples aren't great. Assume my opponents have removal on turn 2, but not turn 4. Assume I have Sol Ring, but not Arcane Signet or some other mana generator to allow that turn 1 play. My playgroup runs a ton of ramp and it feels bad on turn 7 when my opponent has twice as much mana as I do.
The strongest thing to do in commander, I think, is to deploy cards to get mana advantage, and then use that mana advantage to deploy a powerful value engine. This, or super fast combo, are the main ways that cedh decks are built. Turn 1 sol ring lets you skip to turn 4. Turn one sol ring + arcane signet lets you skip to turn 5. It might be a bad decision for you to run out your pieces with zero protection, but by starting the game 2-3 turns ahead of the table you can double spell, or cast a powerful draw engine or spell, in order to recoup the card loss you used to springboard yourself ahead. IF you don't have any draw engine, or powerful piece that can take advantage of turn one sol ring then maybe it's bad. Yuriko might be one such example. I have a Meria voltron deck that forgoes it because it's an awful topdeck and doesn't help me get Meria out earlier than a llanowar elves does. But you can build decks which are not blue/x tempo. Turn one sol ring, turn two play your lightning greaves/protection, turn 3 play your 6-7 mana commander and equip greaves is incredibly strong. I agree that sol ring creates bad play patterns, so I intentionally don't include it in most low/mid power decks.
Nobody force you to play sol ring turn 1 neither play right away on your commander, the only problem with sol ring is that it atracts a lot of atention and its a bad top deck
Your argument is so flawed its not even funny anymore. Stop arguing under the assumption of a perfect world and start realizing we dont get those hands alot. Card draw is rng. And as others have said too, then dont play ur damn sol ring turn 1 if u got smth better to do. Play it turn 2 together with ur 2 drop so that turn 3 u can suddenly do more then expected.
Are you saying we should all do a bit of Sol searching?
Moonsilver Key enjoyers:
on that note - is it really that useful to be tutoring a Sol ring? I see people do this way more than I'd expect and I can't explain it.
@joshbowdish9851
1: Ramp is ramp, and it's usually a good idea to have some extra mana.
2: Tutoring for a Sol Ring minimizes the information you leak to your opponents about your deck [due to its widespread use]
3: Decks that tutor artifacts run lots of artifacts. Artifacts typically use colorless mana to cast. Therefore, grabbing Sol Ring when you tutor an artifact makes it easier to cast more artifacts.
@@rixaxeno7167 Thanks! I guess I don't play enough of that kind of deck to know. I appreciate it.
There's a few flaws in your argument.
1 - yes, depending on the deck and archetype, sometimes there are better things to play in turn 1, but we are playing singleton and would not be correct to expect to always have that turn 1 play.
2 - if you are not talking about a creature without haste, that spell could very well be used on your turn 2 since you are going to have 4 mana. So you could do your turn 1 and turn 2 play at the same time. Or even your turn 1 play and have your turn 3 play which sometimes could be even better. And we are not even talking about if you also have any two mana mana rock on your opening hand. Potentially 5 mana on turn 2.
3 - yeah, sol ring is so good that it could paint a huge target on your back. To some people it may be a bad thing. But not for everyone.
4 - you excluded the fact that you don't HAVE to play it on turn 1, if you really need that creature on the first turn, you can play your sol ring on turn 2 or 3. And sometimes it really is the better play because it will always catapult you ahead on mana advantage.
I feel like you're missing the point of the vid. It's contextual and you can scenario it into infinity which is why he can't answer it. There is no hard answer, you can come up with almost infinite scenarios where where its a good play and bad play. You should be thinking about whether soul ring is right for your deck, not that its an auto-include and needs to be defended. This reminds me a lot of people who run reliquary tower. Not that it's the same comparison; people just add it thinking about that one scenario where it is a great payoff- not thinking about its average impact for their deck. We just keep adding things because of the general viewpoint that it's what you do. same with temple of the false god. The whole point is to think more before you add stuff, not come up with 4 got em scenarios.
@@Joseph-fl2bb Sure but using sol ring is insane in this scenario. Some of the examples where sol ring isn't good that he gives are just bad hands? Like T1 sol ring T2 unprotected commander that's literally a vanilla piece until other things are down that people are still so scared of that they decide to use a piece of removal T2 rather than develop themselves is just a bad line. A hand with sol ring is not an instant snap keep, sol ring + 6 lands is horrible.
T1 evasive beater into T2 value piece that costs 1 generic and 1 colored sounds worse to me than T1 sol ring T2 1 mana beater 2 mana value piece and keep a C floating, next turn you have 2 more mana than you should and you have the same creatures on board, you missed out on 1 swing of your 1 mana 1/1, and even if your 2 mana piece triggers off that hit chances are the effect is worse than just being up 2 mana. And lets not get anywhere close to the ceiling where you actually have a good 3 mana piece to play on t2 or where sol ring lets you ramp into more mana to make bigger plays early.
If you wanna cut sol ring from your deck go ahead, I think the card is a little cringe outside of cedh/higher power edh to begin with and I don't run it in my casual decks, but if you're doing it because you think it's bad that's delusional.
@@Joseph-fl2bb No you cant there are very few scenarios where sol ring is a genuine bad card, there some scenarios where you shouldnt play sol ring for a variaty of reasons, but that just means holding it for a later turn, in his video he didnt metion a single scenario where sol ring is bad.
I think the real issue here is that after playing a turn one sol ring you are misplaying in the examples, that's not sol ring being bad, that's just bad execution.
The argument breaks down since no matter how precise you think your mana curve is, there is no guarantee you will actually draw a hand that allows you to play it out turn after turn. Its a fundamental error in the theory you apply to your deck.
If your deck can be 1 card less optimized with a guarantee that you will brick less likely, its way better than to have a deck thats fully optimized but will be able to brick
And no, every deck can brick
I agree with you that ramp especially Sol Ring can smooth things out significantly. But still, I got that "well actually" itch for the comment below.
There will always be decks of varying power level that are exceptions to rules. 99 Land Ashling is only kind of a joke deck. Varragoth Bloodsky Sire has a very similar 90ish land combo deck floating around to Onyx/Smog.
"Every deck can brick" to an extent
An optimized cEDH list will almost never hard brick internally, like its a 1 in 1000 or less chance that youll brick after mulling into a playable hand
In casual yes, but when your decks so streamlined that its solely winlines and enablers only an external factor like stax can hard brick you
Not only that, but he realizes that you don't need to play sol ring turn 1, right? If you can fit in a sol ring on turn 2 to use a colorless mana instead of an unnecessary pip for your normal turn 2 play, then sol ring is literally free ramp with no impact to tempo.
as amusing as this is, if it were at all true then cEDH decks would not run it. But they all run it. Because you dont HAVE to play it on turn 1. You can play it when you need it.
I think a lot of casual players dont realize just how good sol ring is. It's so good I play it in my Hogaak deck despite the fact that mana can't be used to cast hogaak. It accelerates everything your deck does, not just the turn you drop your commander. It can make it so you have mana to play your turn 2 spell AND have mana left to answer a treat from an opponent. It's one of the best cards ever printed.
I think the real argument here is 'how' you play sol ring. The real challenge is understanding when to show value and when to become a threat. Much like cedh, and seeing your 'opportunity to win', is how you should play strong cards like this or dockside.
I agree with this argument when it comes to almost all other forms of traditional ramp. When people put out deck "templates" that say 37 lands and 13 ramp, it irks me a bit, because not all decks need the ramp. If you are playing a bunch of cards that you want to curve out on turn 2 or 3 (the most common turns for ramp), its better to actually play something like 40-45 lands and little to no ramp.
The argument doesnt quite work for sol ring imo. The flaw in your thought experiment, is that you assume if you have sol ring in your opening hand as well as some useful 1-3 drops, that you HAVE to play sol ring on turn 1. If you have a good curve in your hand, there is no need to run out the sol ring early and potentially run into the issues you outlined as well as make the table more scared of you. Because sol ring still gives you +1 mana the turn you play it, there is no penalty for not playing it early like other forms of ramp. The biggest candidate for not playing sol ring is for decks that dont have enough colorless/generic costs in their mana costs. On a later turn, if Sol ring gives you +1 mana, but is also effectively changing one of your colored mana into a colorless mana, then you can run into issues if you are trying to double spell something like RG and 1GG.
Realistically no
If you want to curve out on turn 2 or 3 its actually better to cut lands and play fast mana and rituals
More lands less ramp makes a low curve deck incredibly bricky
You actually provided a pretty good argument against too much ramp. For example, i took almost all ramp spells out of my Kathril, Aspect Warper deck because playing my commander on turn 4 with like 1-2 keywords is nonsensical, so i'd rather spend turns 2 and 3 playing self-mill cards like Grisly Salvage or Crawling Infestation than ramp. Sol Ring is still in the deck however, as it's too good at making my setup cards come out earlier.
A good reason for exclusion is that of power, which you also mentioned. Sol Ring is an insanely strong card and i don't understand Wizards' decision to make it an auto-include with so many reprints, Mana Crypt is almost identical but didn't get the same treatment. This has actually been a common topic of discussion on my friend groups' commander tables, and i hope we will all agree to exclude the card one day.
I think the idea is a very interesting concept, one that as long as you are curving out every turn with value pieces, ramp is less important. However, i think the idea breaks down in a few different areas.
First, each and every commander plays their gameplan in different ways, but i like to think of commanders as fitting into one of 3 categories: engine, value piece, or wincon. Depending on the strength of something like an engine or the wincon, it may be integral to a decks success to get that commander down asap. Value pieces imo can get away with less ramp, as its more just enhancing an existing strategy, and is not a highly important part of the deck.
Second, there are decks that are designed in such a way that curving out is not always possible. Reanimator tends to have wild mana curves, often with hands full of highly expensive cards looking to be binned and reanimated later on. Doesnt matter if its binned by a discard for turn, doesnt matter if its in a turn or two, aslong as it is reanimated eventually, the game plan goes on. Or perhaps take a dragons deck. Without heavy ramp, trying to curve out in dragons is nearly impossible, as the decks gameplan revolved around slamming powerful high cmc cards over and over.
Last but not least, accelerating a curve doesnt mean you can never play the stuff you would have played if you didnt ramp, it instead can mean you have even more recourses to do so. If you wanted to go something like turn 1 mystic remora, turn 2 pay fish and play a 1 drop, turn 3 rhystic study (increadibly specific example, but its more to set as an example). A turn 1 sol ring means you just go turn 1 ring, turn 2 rhystic and fish due to land drops. If anything, in the vampire example, i think its moreso the commander you have chosen that may not fit being played as fast, but i know that if i have a hand consisting of value engine pieces, i want them slammed down as soon as possible in order to drown the opponents in card economy.
I again wanna reiterate i like the idea, and i like it when people bring challenges to what many consider the fundamentals of magic. Critical looks at how decks are made can lead to creative decisions, and can ultimately make decks more diverse while still powerful and synergistic. I think its actually pretty valid for low to the ground, aggro decks trying to close out games quickly to not need that many resources. Who needs 20 mana when im going to pump the gas, and never let go of the throttle till everyone is dead. However, when shifting the lens from aggro to midrange or to decks designed to grind opponents out of cards, having more mana than the general mana curve can allow tends to help these decks succeed in how the decks are built.
The same points I wanted to make, great minds think alike hahaha
Establishing your commander is almost always an important step to furthering your game plan and sol ring almost always assists in doing so quickly. You can also just not play sol ring t1 if there's a better option. You may want to prioritize a creature to remove summoning sickness for t2, but then you can play sol ring t2 and play a 3 drop. Additionally an exceptionally powerful play pattern is playing sol ring, an arcane signet, fellear stone, or a talisman into a 1 drop t1.
I ran into this while tweaking Henzie. He's three colored pips. He discounts generic mana costs. So I need colored pips above all else. While peeling away generic three mana ramp, I put in 1-2 mana pieces that get me colors, or some other assist. I want to be able to get Henzie out quick, and have any option in my hand ready to start flying.
And I'll keep saying Leyline Immersion is the perfect Henzie card, because he becomes a mana dork with ward and can churn out some nasty things with five colored mana right now. THAT replaced my Sol Ring.
I would say the the biggest crime of sol ring is that it goes mana positive the turn you play it.
As in, it is like a colorless rite of flame that did 3 lines.
My main point is this: Take the Fynn the fangbearer for example, you probably do not want to turn 1 sol ring. However turn two, you might want to play sol ring, and use it to cast Fynn, and use the leftover mana for a 1 mana colorless thing. You might not have this, so you can keep sol ring for a 4 mana card on turn 3.
And unlike rite of flame, which is temporary, it will help you on your future turns.
To further put light to this argument, it is banned in vintage and restricted in legacy for general power level concerns. Which to me is an easy sign this card is very strong, probably on par with moxxen.
Regardless, there are decks it could be bad in, but even in my 4 color Lurrus as companion deck where the curve ends at 2, it is still worth it, if I didn't cut it because I think the card is not "unique" enough.
I do not think that even in a low to the ground deck, sol ring can be bad. The only reason I can see sol ring being bad is if you have no consistent use for colorless mana. As sol ring makes more mana than a normal land, and even the turn you play it, it goes mana positive just like an untapped land.
TLDR: If you have a hard time using colorless mana, sol ring can be bad in that specific scenerio, in any deck that wants at least some colorless mana, sol ring is generally better than any ramp, and most lands and rituals.
Its bad because: "The quality is so high it really should not be allowed in something like commander on a casual level". The quality being high and it being too strong is I think the single most backwards way of justifying something is not good.
Is it fair? No, it is the power level of a mox, arguably a card on the level of the power 9. Is it really that good? Yes, it is a cedh staple, restricted in legacy for power level reasons and overall a powerhouse.
All the way at the end, you bring up a deck that only wins if it is two turns ahead (provided by sol ring). I would agree that could be problematic, and might be a reason to cut sol ring, however that would be a feels concern, and not one of sol rings power level.
The thing is, in given scenario , if you have enough lands + cards to go from turn 1 to 4 and a sol ring on top of it, playing it turn 1 wont disrupt you, since you should be able to play your original turn 1 and 2 together on turn 2 because you have enough mana. Only way you wouldnt would be if you need double of one color mana plus one of the other color
It depends. Say for a turn 1 Sheoldred. I play land for turn and a Jeweled Lotus for 3, turn 1 Sheoldred & whenever a player draws a card. It's an immediate 2 damage (+ other cards like Ob Nix). If they waste a counterspell or Exile card, that's fine by me. I got a turn 1 creature and essentially removed interaction from the board
100% agree. My willowdusk deck cuts sol ring bc im making plays turns 1-4 that require only pips. It’s for the most part a wasted slot. A land/dork does more.
I have one deck that does not have sol ring. It’s 4 color omnath that cares about activating land abilities to control the game until I can reach a land-based combo. I have received multiple questions and comments on the fact that it is not there saying I am actively losing out in n power for excluding it. But I have a few reasons.
0) At the beginning it was because my deck had a restriction of “every card says the word land on it” but I since broke that rule, so I can’t use that anymore. There’s non personal-restriction reasons as well.
1) The deck is very color-specific mana hungry. I NEED green and sol ring doesn’t make that. I also run a ton of colorless utility lands, which does not help the issue. Omnath is 4 mana of specific pips. Plus needing over 70% green mana just to function. Any more colorless mana in the mix is just too tough.
2) It’s a dead draw. Late game, I might need a land to cast a spell with retrace or to trigger a tatyova. A ramp spell like explore or growth spiral gives me another shot at a land if I don’t draw one. Sol ring can’t help with that.
3) My deck is already very good at ramping on turn 2 and I have tap lands to help with my fixing. I often don’t need or want a turn one play. I wouldn’t be able to use it even if I had it because I’m trying to play a triome to get access to green and two other colors.
This is a highly synergistic landscape deck that relies on a density of land-based effects to build an engine and close out games. My deck just doesn’t want the effect of ‘add two colorless mana’. It’s always a good idea to take a look at what kinds of effects your deck needs.
I also have a Marisi, breaker of the coil deck that is low to the ground and aggressive. The game plan is to make tokens and make them evasive by making extra rules for blocking. The deck has a lot of power cards in the 4-5 mana range that, if landed ahead of curve, catapult my game plan way ahead. If I’m ahead of curve, I would much rather play those than my commander. My commander needs those abilities already on the field when he arrives. This deck loves an early sol ring to help push out aggressive creatures ahead of my opponents ability to deal with them.
The deck can curve out, and when it does it is a pretty brutal force. But dropping 4 drops on turn 2 and 3 into a commander on turn 4 (still on curve, probably with protection) is just as scary, if not worse.
I think more than anything you have to look at your synergy pieces and how much they use colorless mana. Need to ramp out big things with 3-4 generic in their casting cost? Go right ahead. Need to hit 4 green pips by the time you have 5 mana? Probably not worth it
For Varina (tempo) if I have a 1 cost zombie and sol ring in opening hand, I'm more likely to play the zombie.
Cause having as many zombies out before I play Varina is the focus.
So I play sol ring on a turn that supports this.
turn 1 sol ring: I sleep
turn 2 sol ring with a 3 drop: real shit
I have a few decks that don't use Sol Ring. One is because it's enchantments, the other do to being colored mana hungry WUBRG. Another is due to a $50 budget, and it was Sol Ring or 3 other ramp cards. Excluding pauper commander, I have at least 3 decks and maybe more without it. All because of what the deck is doing. Still... it's a very good card and ought to be in most decks that would utilize it.
Sol ring is still good in all hos examples, the strefan one he explains himself in the video that the problem is strefan turn 1 not sol ring turn 2, the agressive deck example sol ring turn 1 is probably bad, but sol ring turn 2 to get a turn 3 creature on turn 2 accelerating your hyper aggressive strategy is awesome. ( in the specific case of a two mana commander with no generic mana cost, you probably want sol ring on turn 3 to get a 4 mana spell out, or two 2 mana spells. )
I feel this a little bit. I took out cultivate from my mothman deck just because it shuts out the many INCREDIBLE 3-drops that when mothman comes out the turn after, generate incredible damage or value.
Its just a situation of improving as a driver for your deck. There might be a situation whre you can either do sol ring or a one drop that actually furthers the plan, and analyzing what the sol rings mana is actually going to do for you. Sol gives 2 colorless, but its colorless. so unless theres something you can do with that colorless like playing another manarock, it might be a better turn one to play that one drop and save the Ring for turn two or three
As the resident Sol Ring hater, I took Sol Ring out of all my decks. (TLDR - it's broken and shouldn't have ever been printed). I found this extremely freeing, because I didn't have to tune my deck to the 1/99 chance of having a Sol Ring and how I'd have to twist my mana curve to capitalize on the extra mana. In my mind, if you have a Sol Ring, the next best thing to do on top of that is T1 Sol Ring > Talisman/Signet/etc. This starts to eat at all of the ramp slots. Without Sol Ring, I can just focus on like, Llanowar Elves-> Cultivate -> 5 drop, or Signet -> 4 drop or whatever the deck is trying to. This is possible because like 99% of non-sol ring cards cmc 1-3 make ONE FUCKING MANA. Except for like, Eladamri's Vineyard and Worn Powerstone. The card is simply not like the others. It's using meters and everyone else is using feet.
I guess my point is it is impossible to plan around Sol Ring. There's games where you draw Sol Ring, and then there's all the rest. The math for Sol Ring games does not apply to the math for non-Sol Ring games. You can't have a curve that fully supports Sol Ring and the rest of the ramp available to you in magic. Obviously it will usually overshoot so its a bit of a first world problem but there's always that feeling for me where I didn't make full use of the card. Taking it out of all the decks really felt like a weight was lifted from the design space of all the decks because it closed off that 1% chance (i guess 8% with your starting hand) that the deck would turn into a different deck.
Edit: forgot mana crypt and vault exist also. Same basic problem, but I don't have 25 of them lying around.
This is why I play with Magmite and Ornithopter in my Kamiz deck 😅
I don’t play Sol Ring in my new Ashling deck (from MH3) because she allows you to keep your red mana as steps and phases end. So all my ramp is red and sol ring is a pretty bad fit. It’s only use would be paying the commander tax when Ashling inevitably gets removed.
She's 4 mana though. Idk how the rest of your deck looks, but unless it's all just pips of color for your mana costs, you should be playing sol ring in there. I have 2 decks where I don't play sol ring. Hogaak, and feather. Neither can use sol ring to be cast, and most of the cards in the deck cost a pip or two and very few numbers. I think in Hogaak sol ring could help cast like 20 cards so that's an easy cut. And in feather it's even less cards it can help with.
Then she dies....
Other than the red ramp, I mainly put speed draw, protection spells like Return the Favor, copy spells, and high mana cost, or {X} spells (including a few instants). Most spells have 2 red pips, a few have 3 but there’s a lot with a single red pip or straight up colorless spells.
It’s not exactly finished yet, and I understand the argument that sol ring is an extremely fast ramp, but playing Ashling turn 2 is the best way to be an archenemy of the table, and I’d rather add one red mana that I can stack rather than 2 colorless that I have to use every turn, because it gives me more versatility in my options.
Also, I’m wondering if I should add a Horizon Stone to have a redundancy for when Ashling dies… 5 mana is a pretty steep cost, but the value it brings is very interesting (I would also consider adding a bit of colorless ramp like Sol Ring, Paladium Myr and Thran Dynamo)
I stopped running sol ring in most of my decks because i tend to be low enough to the ground with my curve and hungry enough for colored mana that im usually only getting 1 generic out of an activation of it, which makes my curve feel clunky and awkward. It ultimately accelerates my gameplan by maybe a single turn at the cost of me being targeted in the early game, which is probably going to cost me more tempo than the sol ring gained me.
I agree, early commander isn't always great... Early Sol Ring is nearly always good, just use it to play more setup pieces turn 2 and cmndr turn 3
This thing where CZcamsrs have to """"""comedically"""""" justify themselves 10 times before saying their opinion is becoming obscenely annoying.
I don't care if your opinion is good or bad, I will respect it regardless because I'm an adult.
I play an Alesha Aristocrats deck with an average mana cost of 2.57 and a Zada deck with an average mana cost of 1.88. My decks usually have low mana curves. Sol Ring is broken. Sol Ring is not Ramp, Sol Ring is fast Mana. If you can make use of the 2 colorless then it is worth it. I wouldn't play Sol Ring in a Mono Color deck where you overwhelmingly play cards that only cost mana pips. LIke White Wheenie or Elves. Otherwise: Sol Ring is broken.
I mean, Land, Sol Ring, Talisman is a crazy fast start for anyone, playing a 5cmc Commander on Turn 2, or your Turn 2 and Turn 3 play on Turn 2, and having Mana up for interaction (Swords, PTE, Stifle, Spell Pierce..) on turn 1 is nothing to sneeze at either.
If your commander beeing out early doesn’t do anything then don’t play him early. In this situation where the sol ring makes you skip your turn 1 and 2 play and instead turns them into „do nothing“ turns that’s just a bad decision. You cannot judge a card based on what it does in case of a player misplaying. You don’t even have to play the sol ring turn 1. it always makes +1 in mana so you can play it at any turn you like. If you don’t want the attention early game just treat it as a ritual with upside.
Anyway regarding the last point. I stopped putting fast mana in my decks long ago and also don’t play the ring anymore
I think the point of this video is to really ask the question, does Sol Ring belong in my deck and that sometimes the answer will be no. I do see the benefit to not playing it right away and jumping ahead of the curve, which wasn't really covered here. If you're playing casual commander, Sandbagging is an important and overlooked strategy. Don't be the first to jump ahead or you will be ganged up on. Sometimesz just leave Sol Ring at home. Many of your decks will thank you
I actually agree, I have found that when building my decks if my commander is 5 mana or higher, ramp is important, however any value under 5, means i can cut fast mana or the higher cost ramp. I think the hardest thing to realize is that even if you have turn 1 sol ring, your pod is going to snipe you out of the sky. Threat assessment is a much more important skill that has to be learned, even at the pods i play in, if you even think about playing slightly more accelerated, you get sent to the stone age.
A lot of Commanders cost 4 mana. USually: 2YY (Y standing for any color pip). Sol Ring turn 1 gives you access to your commander turn 2. In case of cards like Winota this is broken.
@schwarzertee7586 but again having access to your commander 2 turns before limit your plays. I wholeheartedly agree with the video, as he had said there are value pieces that could be played instead that don't make you a turn 1 target, and you have a more developed and cohesive board without it. Now in certain instances, I think you are right. Voltron commanders, or in my very specific case, my Selvala deck, need to be played early to accrue value faster, to get your game off the ground.
@@caleballen2692 I'd argue Voltron Commanders (without inherent protection like Ward) are at their worst when you put them out before any other game pieces or ways to keep them protected. Although a turn-one sol ring is still useful to Voltron as it can accelerate any equipment you may be running. I think the video should be arguing against greedy ramp rather than Sol Ring/Ramp as a whole. if you're putting out ramp just for the value and not a greater plan beyond "big mana go burrrrr" you're setting yourself up for removal. but if you hold onto the ramp for a better opportunity or use it as a tool to better prepare for your commander you'll invariably be in a better position than you would have without it.
@jonathanhilton7265 I messed up, I hadn't meant to say voltron commanders. I think I was watching something else while replying. I do agree that ramping into nothing is a bad style of play that leaves you open. Playing things on curve is so important to managing your boardstate and having the tools to remove other people's board presence, now if you play something like Xyris or Selvala or Animar who need to be on the field to accrue value as fast as possible, ramping to get them out is your best bet. There are definitely more scenarios where a rampant growth, or sol ring are misplays.
Yeah while it can mess up your turn one curve it can lead to a double spell turn 2 with 2 2 drops
Well and also sol ring to play your commander immediately you definitely need to get into a better position before going into game plan mode.
A huge boon to my rogues deck is that I want the small unblockables up and running before I drop Anowon
I have a Ghalta primal hunger deck that absolutely doesn't have a sol ring in it. I feel like most green makes you lean in a lot of other directions. That and artifact removal is real, people run artifact removal
Thumbnail call out i woke up on the right side of the bed square up bro lol
I get sol ring and my opponent burns single target removal on my commander, the one card I will have access to later in the game even if they spend removal on it? Deal.
Do you think Kamiz, obscura oculus, is an example of a deck that doesn't want the early ramp since it wants to play cheap creatures then the commander?
Sol ring bad no, mana vault bad yes lol
I don't play sol ring in my yuriko deck. turn 1 = land + 1 drop creature, turn 2 land + yuriko
If you know your Commander is going to be removed as soon as it hits the battlefield...just dont play it If you cant protect it?
Just because you have 4 Mana doesn't mean you have to Play your 4 CMC Commander, simply play other Setup/ Playoff pieces.
I run one deck without soul ring. And one deck I’m considering dropping it in.
This might just be a high power problem because I have my big mana deck and I'm always thirsty for extra mana
In my Rakdos Lord of Riots deck, I dont have sol ring because color pips are my bottle neck, not colorless.
Okay this whole idea that sol ring is bad , or is toooo good .... Is funny.
Look some of my decks want that god hand Sol ring , signet , into 1 drop creature. Turn 2, 4 resources and commander.
( Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa )
Not only keeps me up curve but also lets me get in for early poisoning on my opponents.
sol ring is bad in bad hands/draws, and Sol ring takes okay-ish hands to omg I can play that turn 2/3!!!
"This is the easiest (names a piece of target removal) I've ever seen!"
It's turn 2. Have people drawn into the removal? Do they have enough mana? Do they want to use all their mana for a removal spell and do nothing on their first, crucial, turns?
They remove your commander. Ouch. You still have 2 mana more than they have.
If your deck plays well without having 2 mana more than the other player, injecting a bit of cocaine in the form of a sol ring will not make it worse.
You don't HAVE TO cast Strefan as soon as you have the mana for him. You could cast something else first. Like the synergy pieces you need
This should have just been a series on overextension and removal. If you play your commander into removal, that's dumb. If you play turn land + 1 sol ring into 2 cmc synergy, turn 2 into 4cmc synergy, turn 3 into commander and 1cmc synergy, then you're above the curve by as much as 8 mana. Even if you skip turn 1 cause you can't play into 2 colorless, you can still cast a 4 cmc on turn 2. If you play into removal, you risk it/bait it out, or you punish those who are more casual and refuse to run any removal. Play politics so that you aren't making it 3 vs 1 by turn 3 or be prepared to end the game fast. Have removal so that an opponent with turn 1 Sol Ring isn't going to end the game. Sol Ring is bad if players are bad.
Agree to disagree. Low mana curve + ramp = well-oiled machine
Low mana curve plus ramp means you are using a card to get ahead on mana in a deck that benifits from being able to make impactful plays on those setup turns
@Bee-wk7hw Fair enough. You keep your 40+ lands while I ramp and thin my deck while making explosive plays ggz
@@Bee-wk7hwlow mana curve + BAD ramp means that
Low mana curve + the CORRECT ramp means youre absolutely in control ans are playing cards 2 turns ahead not just getting 2 extra turns worth of potential mana
Turn 1 sol ring vs turn 1 dark rit
I don't play Sol Ring, nothing against the people who does, I just don't
3:15 Why would you play your commander then?
Play Magda and you'll understand why Sol Ring is still being run.
I like somring turn 2 or 3
Turn 1 only if i got nothing else even after mulling to 5
That's funny, I was just wondering this 🤔
what about just not casting your commander trun 2, instead get out more value pieces?
ah nvm he did go through that in 5:50
Yes. Sol ring is not worth playing in many decks. If you are mroe than two colors it does not fix anything. If you are mono color then there are better options with more impact. It really only shines in my experience in two color decks or decks with an artifact focus or playing a lot of eldrazi things. How many times have you turn 1d Sol ring go turn two land go? How many times have you kept a bad hand due to the ring?
It's not about fixing, it's about accelerating. Playing an earlier turn Cultivate or additional mana rocks in your 3+ color decks makes a world of difference.
But doesn’t pinging the table turn one without Strefan on the battlefield just mean they take damage but get no blood tokens?
Why play a ping turn one if you get no blood?
Its about setting up the ping ahead of your Commander. The one mana creatures he showed have to attack and don't have haste too.
So ... synergy? I agree! That's why I've taken Sol Ring out of most decks.
This is not even an argument. Quality of cards trumps synergy almost always. Yes, some commanders force you to play worse cards, for example Kinnan, Yuriko or tribal commanders but the upside has to be so much higher for including a synergisitc card before lets say dockside, rhystic study, cyc rift, mystic remora, esper sentiel, Ranger Captain of Eos or other general very good cards.
Also sacrificing your T1 for fast mana is not even an issue T1 land, Sol Ring, Talisman, Value piece (Monke, Fish, Esper for example) just brings you to your T5 mana on T2.
I get that your perspective is from a low power level and that is fine but even in metas that are miles away from cEDH will you find super high impact cards.
cureve haha 1:22
There are precisely ZERO decks that benefit without Sol Ring. There is no argument to be made, unless you are going for peak hipster subversion.
How about an enchantress deck? There are enough options for enchantments that ramp you, and since they are drawing you like 1 or even more cards simply on cast the synergy outvalues sol ring.
@@Zumteifl Is it better to shive out two smaller or one large game warping Enchantment on t2/ t3? Is commander tax easier to pay dropping a single Sol Ring, or fishing for 2 lands?
These are all great arguments against playing too many weaker rocks, but Sol Ring is just that much better than the rest. I'm disappointed by the shallow level of analysis in this video - why can't you just play your Sol Ring on turn 2? Why is it so much better to have your turn 1 play out on turn 1 than it is to have it out on turn 2 and be up 2 mana for the rest of the game? Sol Ring, being fast mana, doesn't slow you down, and doesn't actually dilute the synergy pieces in your deck, because it generally fits into a land slot (being cheap, fast, permanent mana).
I think you made a lot of good points but I would just say that the decks sol ring is bad in are bad decks. If a small creature is that important to your game plan you are asking to be board wiped
The example you gave with Strefan and sol ring is really dumb, us as the player chose what to play if we are so ahead on mana and we know our game plan, knowing thta playing our commander is a bad idea, just dont play it and play the engine.
Got it sol ring bad need to buy 7 mana crypts for all my decks so I don’t have to mess up my curve can anyone loan me a quick $1,400
Any argument like this breaks completely when you are talking about “high power” a.k.a. “Not cedh”.
“What’s the best way to build a not that good deck?” Is just kind of a non starter.
If you mean “objectively” then look at cedh decks. I play exclusively cedh. I have seen a couple people play no sol ring in a couple decks; Yuriko and a guy who was trying to play Rakdos, Lord of riots as a cedh deck. They both ended up back on sol ring to help cast the bigger bombier things in Yuriko (you don’t actually HAVE to play sol ring turn 1. And in order to power out two mana rocks or hard cast big things in Rakdos.
You are confusing these questions;
1) should I always play sol ring turn one
2) is sol ring a good card.
Plain and simple.
You shouldn’t always play sol ring turn one. Not in all strategies.
Sol ring is a broken card and there may be literally zero decks that shouldn’t play it. But you shouldn’t always play it turn one.
Sol Ring should be banned in commander. It's boring, fits in most decks, and throws off game balance. I think the examples aren't great. Assume my opponents have removal on turn 2, but not turn 4. Assume I have Sol Ring, but not Arcane Signet or some other mana generator to allow that turn 1 play. My playgroup runs a ton of ramp and it feels bad on turn 7 when my opponent has twice as much mana as I do.
Simply don't play it turn one
MADMAN!!!!! 🔥🔥🔥 (haven't watched past 1:30 [yes, I disliked and unsubscribed {Btw I'm doxxing you rn]})
The strongest thing to do in commander, I think, is to deploy cards to get mana advantage, and then use that mana advantage to deploy a powerful value engine. This, or super fast combo, are the main ways that cedh decks are built. Turn 1 sol ring lets you skip to turn 4. Turn one sol ring + arcane signet lets you skip to turn 5. It might be a bad decision for you to run out your pieces with zero protection, but by starting the game 2-3 turns ahead of the table you can double spell, or cast a powerful draw engine or spell, in order to recoup the card loss you used to springboard yourself ahead. IF you don't have any draw engine, or powerful piece that can take advantage of turn one sol ring then maybe it's bad. Yuriko might be one such example. I have a Meria voltron deck that forgoes it because it's an awful topdeck and doesn't help me get Meria out earlier than a llanowar elves does. But you can build decks which are not blue/x tempo. Turn one sol ring, turn two play your lightning greaves/protection, turn 3 play your 6-7 mana commander and equip greaves is incredibly strong.
I agree that sol ring creates bad play patterns, so I intentionally don't include it in most low/mid power decks.
Nobody force you to play sol ring turn 1 neither play right away on your commander, the only problem with sol ring is that it atracts a lot of atention and its a bad top deck
Your argument is so flawed its not even funny anymore.
Stop arguing under the assumption of a perfect world and start realizing we dont get those hands alot. Card draw is rng.
And as others have said too, then dont play ur damn sol ring turn 1 if u got smth better to do. Play it turn 2 together with ur 2 drop so that turn 3 u can suddenly do more then expected.