How INFJs and INTJs Express Themselves
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2024
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I feel INFJs and probably INTJs can be unique and eloquent by using metaphors.
I don’t think many INFJ would like to run a channel as you do Ren. You are quite eloquent, especially as you are often explaining quite nuanced material.
Hello, Ren. There are times I say something to someone, and then I realize it sounded much better in my head, and it's a bit awkward for me. Happens a lot haha
I asked my twin (without context since she doesn't know about this vid yet) if I’m eloquent by speech or rambling. She said both and depends. So I asked, "when I'm talking thru Ni tunnel vision, do I ramble? When I lean on Fe and not much talking about concepts, am I eloquent?" She said yes to all 😂
It's true,there is a delicate line between self expression and thought processing and keeping that seesaw balanced is a challenge for INxJs.But I think maturity and experience helps quite a lot...
It also depends on what we are talking about. I have at times spoken at length about my interests. Occasionally I’ll be trying to recall a particular word and that makes me stutter. I can easily lose my train of thought when that happens.
Excellent video Ren. I do have a CZcams channel and have done for 10 years. I ramble there, anything else just feels like too much work, not to mention the layers of inauthenticy that come in as I might try to taylor my message to reach a wider audience.
Finished your 2nd book and I say it's wonderful. You are trying to help your fellow INFJ's and I thank you for it. Ultimately I feel our interior conflict is unreconcilable even though you have some great suggestions and as always your informed insights are top notch.
I will say this, other types do not care about the INFJ struggle. When I try to talk about it, thier eyes glaze over and I'm eventually perceived as just thinking I'm better than other people (I don't). You hit a great point when you mention how we might compare ourselves to a high functioning INFJ like Carl Jung or Jesus and can really feel bitter that we cannot affect the external world like those guys did. I can relate to that. To me the great pain of INFJness is on one hand, wanting acceptance and approval for my work and ideas but on the other hand I deeply and profoundly don't fucking care what people think. ACK!
God bless you Ren, thanks for your efforts🙂🙂
Amazing! This explains a lot.,,I get so frustrated when what I want to say seems so elusive. I tend to blame poor vocabulary for this problem. Your discussion is spot on…thanks. Very helpful! Whenever I have to give a presentation I always notice there are 2 ways in which it comes off and I just hate it when I end up rambling! It just get me so pissed especially when there is a message I really want to convey and it gets lost 😡
Honestly, this was quite perfectly stated. I struggle a lot with being able to articulate my inward thought process and subjective interpretation of things without coming across as incredibly symbolic and going on what can be long diatribes to try to fully capture the extent and essence of my inward experience. There is an inward level of clarity, with a sort of interweaving lattice of abstract concepts and connections that crystallize into a dynamic schema, a sort of universal or holistic structure that allows for the understanding of the self, ideas, and events. But translating this to external reality, especially in real time, something is always lost, it can not be perfectly replicated objectively, and even when delivered in what is believed to be a coherent way, it is often not understood.
In order to account for this, you have to contort, or what can feel like pervert, one’s message in order to make it more easily comprehensible to the audience that is meant to receive it. Often, that requires reformatting and the shortening of one’s speech so that it is concise and more easily digestible. The use of analogy and metaphor can help to convey one’s understanding, but even then, because these intuitions are so innately personal and yet archetypical, using symbolism that is personally relevant can sometimes be lost on others, so for the sake of clarity, one must often be analogous utilizing more common parallels instead of ones with personal significance and meaning. At least, that tends to be more readily accepted.
All of that to say, despite what can be a highly verbose or articulate character, being able to convey the inner richness of the mind and the insights derived from within can be mired with pitfalls and frustrations. Whether in person or in writing, it often takes monologues (which I’m incredibly prone to), in order to best express the nuance of understanding and the full extent and meaning of one’s message. I shy away from doing this as much when interacting with people simply because it is not often well received, though it’s contextually dependent. I will say, a lot can be said in few words, but it still relies on the others ability to comprehend, but I end up frequently making small observational remarks that strike at the underlying core of a situation.
Incredibly sorry for the long message, I did not even intend to write this much; anyone who actually is interested enough to read through all of this is honestly a saint or insane, but I just wanted to share my perspective on the matter and express my appreciation for this video, because I found that it resonates with my personal experiences and struggle with substance vs sheen, and I always try to find a way to combine the two, but I will always value originality overall, even at the loss of being more widely understood. I do try to make what I say accessible to others if I’m trying to get a point across to them, but I fear that it still often is too high up in the strata for many to capture.
Ironically enough, I’ve had two friends of mine say that me interacting with others is like a sage coming down from my ivory tower to try to convey what wisdom I have gained to others in a way that they can grasp, and then I retreat again up into the cloud-enshrouded mountains high above the earth. (The one who made this observation first was an INFJ, I appreciated his understanding of my dilemma).
If you imagine the goal of a speech as a vector pointing in a particular direction, then making a pronouncement towards the goal, then in the opposite direction and then in the particular direction again could be considered rambling, because they could just be added up to make one vector in the correct direction. Similarly making a perpendicular pronouncement would be superfluous. You might say this is reductive, because you might have more than one goal of the speech, for example you might want to state a fact and also to influence the audience emotionally. But that can always be modelled by adding more dimensions and adding up vectors in different directions.
Hi Ren, do you think Ni types in general can experience this difficulty with articulation, as they are also Ni types? Maybe not as extreme as the IN*Js because they do not lead with Pi. But if Ni is somewhat responsible for causing that difficulty in reaching the masses as easily, due to the abstract nature of their inner world, I can imagine that Ni types in general might experience this same conundrum of seeking to express this inner world with others, but then having to sacrificing some of that connection as Ni ultimately prevails in providing that depth and intensity.
Good question, I’ve already begun to address it in my last short but I’ll do so in more depth in my next video.
@@RensRoom Ah, just saw the short you were talking about.
Thought provoking content as usual, thanks for your effort. ☺️
You are very eloquent. I hope one day to reach this smoothness in conveying my thoughts through spoken word. Lately I have been pushing myself out of my shell by speaking to people I trust about meaningful topics which require communicating my intuition, observations, and experiences into something that is hopefully intelligible.
Being neurodivergent makes communication a struggle because I have the ghosts of people not understanding my words burned into my subconscious, from blank stares to harmful misinterpretations. As a child, I gave up and closed into myself, which further eroded my ability to communicate what I already found difficult.
In written language I constantly feel hard for others to understand despite feedback often saying otherwise. I realise there's this internal disconnect only I can see where the depth and abstractness of my thoughts can't be translated into the outer world with my current abilities, let alone the limitations of my rhythm.
It makes me feel unsure of myself because other types constantly say we should be able to logically explain our thoughts using language. If I can't connect language, making a coherent finished whole immediately, then how valuable and valid is my insight? ;-; I feel like the rambling is my weakness in that speaking makes me colour out the monotone notion I held in my mind for myself. I always have to sacrifice or roughly distill because "image" or "sense" is incompatible.
I do feel sure about these things inside me without words, yet it's almost like my consciousness is not entirely up to date on comprehending it and taking it out of myself to share with others. I feel somewhat like an imposter in a world of smooth Je. I'm not confident my Fe is compelling enough for people to want to listen, like you said, while conveying intuition faithfully. It's as if pulling living leaves off a deciduous, a loss of life and purity when disconnected from the intangible realm. But maybe I'm making excuses for poor logic and slow processing.
I should've introduced it first; I have been into typology for many years and still can't differentiate between Ne, Ni, and Ti. So... it was my third time listening to the video and I still cannot tell how this INFJ struggle with eloquence removed from Je may differ from a Ne or Ti user. 😭
I always hear that Ti is a logic which dwells in the abstract realm. Do Ti users (Ti Ne, Ne Ti) struggle with articulating thought through spoken word? I don't understand how the Ni rambling differs from Ne, because if rambling is the outward manifestation of Ni, how is it different from Ne rambling? I have an inkling if Ni is circular, Ne is a zig zag which can cross back over itself.
Um, I apologise for the lengthy personal dump, especially if it isn't relatable to INFJs! I've been listening to your videos on and off for a long time, so it's always comforting and mentally stimulating to learn how you, others, and myself process the world.
Edit: I could liken knowing to saying the seeming understanding can be instantaneous in a hazy paradoxically complete feeling way, and then using language is a way to dissect the subconscious, ineffable understanding so it can be shared. It can be painful, like a fish trying to cross land, breaking down things into parts, taking time for the conscious mind to finish the work in a product for objective human reality.
Sincerely,
A confused (faux?) INFJ who still can't discern Ti Ne from Ni. 🤭 Despite it, I am grateful knowing that the translation disconnect from mind to word isn't uncommon, at least here. 💗
Hello, following up on the comments from yesterday’s video… this is very interesting. I’ve learned something. You are saying that Fe supports eloquence in INFJs by supporting Ni- if I have that right… I can see it. Yes, when I’m angry, always about something I’ve thought about for awhile, but ALSO (I didn’t consider this yesterday) I express myself eloquently, verbally, when I’m talking to another person about a problem they are having in their own lives and provide perspective and insight- Fe for sure. This feels like it makes a lot of sense. Lots to think about now….
Also interesting, I had the thought that most INFJs probably don’t put their Ni thoughts into the world as they’re working on them so you might not see them rambling…. Unless they have a CZcams channel and speak off the cuff or go live. I don’t think anyone would call me rambling as a rule, but certainly if I am put on the spot to react to something and am thinking through it as I go I have been known to ramble and if it goes long enough eventually get to the point and a good insight. Reading the room through Fe also helps prevent rambling, something that doesn’t really come into play as you’re recording for CZcams
Also interesting is the development of the infj bringing on the eloquence through Fe and J. I used to believe I was INFP, for a long time, and feel like the J took time to develop, like I needed confidence first. Once I matured I was better able to express myself eloquently.
Very interesting. Thank you for this.
Very interesting point about eloquence versus depth of content. Often when I am talking I am thinking at the same time, so see my speech as part of my attempt to clarify what I am thinking. Others mostly tend to see speech as finished information, so our exploratory speeches or talking can be seen by them as nonsense or vague or wishy washy.
How would infj and intj rambling manifest differently? Great video.
Does anyone keep getting the feedback they are being too vague, I am so annoyed by it that usually I completely disregard the person because I know they aren't the type of people I want to speak to
Oh yes!
Ren, I am curious how long the list of potential subjects you is and whether you tend to pick subjects that possibly have been on the list longer, or are the subjects more spontanious (meaning, you thought about them recenttly)
I honestly don’t have more than a rough mental list, most of it is just spontaneous « grabbing the mic » kind of stuff. Of course there are all the topics I explore in my books that act as a kind of standing reserve.
@@RensRoom ok, interesting. I would have thought you would have endlessl lists. On the other hand; endless lists may be more what would be the result of Ne brainstorming. I think Ne types write their ideas down, becuase otherwise they forget them and I think with you that part at least would not be needed!
@@PowerRedBullTypology You hit the nail on the head: lists are *far* more likely to be made by Ne users for the reasons you gave. I can imagine high Te users might do that as well. Ne-Te / Te-Ne seems to me to be the most list-oriented.