YouTube's Biggest Magic Thief
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2023
- Ekaterina Magic just got exposed for exposing secrets by Ellusionist and their brand new bounty hunter system to crack down on theft in the industry. Let's discuss.
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Cavan, Thank you so much man. I really appreciate your thoughts on this. Us creators works really hard on these ideas and methodology. Character developments and bits and lines and sooo much of our blood sweat and tears goes into these creations.
Bounty hunters? Feels unnecessary and like some sort of hero/savior complex. Policing our own community? Sounds like a great way to keep magic exclusionary and keep gatekeeping. Also with that language we know who the policing is made for. I dont believe in this being the solution.
The ring through finger trick is something a few magician have claimed to have invented. It's very difficult to know who invented a trick, especially if it's ungimmicked. Chances are something very similar will have been published before in an old magic book or someone will have came up with it independently and not published it.
Another commenter just informed me that the ring through finger is actually public domain! Yikes.
@@CavanBooth1 yeah. Not surprised. Illusion ist should just chill a bit.
So, two points on this whole thing:
1) The way Ellusionist refers to Ekaterina in their blog posts and material feels... super icky. Especially the whole mention of "being a pretty woman teaching tricks" or whatever. Quite sexist vibes, tbh, and this is the kind of stuff I point to when people wonder why women aren't as prominent in magic.
2) This is my main point: The fact the Ellusionist is choosing to use copyright claims as their method of dealing with the exposing videos is... extremely shaky ground at best. The question in the video of "Is exposing magic methods copyright infringement?" is, from research I've done in the past, a very solved question, and the answer is a pretty firm no. Methods for magic tricks (in the US, at least, but since that's where Ellusionist are based it's relevant law here) have absolutely no copyright protection, and the only cases where copyright has successfully been used in magic were basically work-arounds (see Teller's lawsuit regarding Shadows). This is why the magic community still works on an honor system: there is no official means here. By using copyright claims as their main weapon, what Ellusionist are essentially doing is, in the eyes of the legal system, claiming content that they do not own, and my guess is that, as soon as one single person challenges their claim and the person at CZcams sees that the video is original content (ie not a video made by Ellusionist), the claim will be struck down, potentially along with almost every claim they've made coming down in a chain reaction and the company losing its ability to make copyright claims on CZcams. And unless Ellusionist is so dedicated to this cause that they're willing to go to court and attempt to overturn the existing case law, they're going to find themselves in a worse place than they started. I understand the initiative and wanting to take quick sweeping action to band the magic community together, but in the process of moving fast they're almost certainly going to break things.
Astutely put. Well said all round.
Well said
Thanks for making this video. Justin Miller used to be (might still be) involved in shutting down channels that do this. My understanding is that he has a team of people working together to take this stuff down.
Wow this is so out of control. Thank you for sharing all this.👍👍👍
No worries!
My only real issue with the bounty hunter option is people flagging things that they should not be flagging and causing headaches for innocent people that really are posting original ideas. I would hate to see some poor creators career ruined, because they were dog piled on over stealing content that they never stole.
I think one of the biggest problems is ekat doesn’t even credit the magician or creator. It’s wonderful seeing a more diverse community but I think the way ellusionist spoke about ekat is gross, both parties kind of suck here to different extents
As a professional comedian and amateur magician joke thievery and trick thievery are two very real things. And I can honestly say people who defend either kind of thieves are probably people who have never innovated anything and don't have a creative bone in their body. They don't know how it feels to be stolen from. Something painstakingly created, nurtured and perfected.
This brings good light to the subject. I know more about this now. Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Wow. I remember seeing her around and didn’t realize she was a thief. Weird how the cafes been silent on this especially after the way they came for Spidey.
I was going to do my own magic tutorial channel (as you can see if you open my profile), but having formally applied to my local circle and read their rules and Constitution, I realised that even if I only teach my own stuff, I would risk accidentally exposing someone else's method without permission. So I haven't posted anything.
The problem comes when we still perform some if these effects.
I remember performing French kiss long time ago and I killed it after the show was over the lady whom I perform to came up to me and said oh I know how you did it. Guess what, she went on CZcams and found it. I don't perform it anymore but it bothered me.
There's something you mention here as an aside that I want to correct because it ties back into the issue at hand: you can, in fact, legally record/film yourself playing "Hey Jude" on your guitar and post it to CZcams without permission, because (in the US, not clear on laws elsewhere) the rights holders of a song cannot prevent someone from covering it. This is true even if it's for profit-an artist can request a "compulsory mechanical license" to record and market a cover song. That "compulsory" bit refers to the copyright holder, meaning if someone asks for such a license, they legally can't refuse to provide it.
What the copyright holder CAN do, however, is demand that (a) credit be given to the correct parties for writing and/or owning the song, and (b) demand royalties as compensation (current going American rate of payout is 9.1 cents per physical copy printed or digital copy sold, with other rules regarding payments for streaming listens and ticket sales on live performances). Maybe magic falls in a similar category, where teaching methodology online is subject to royalties based on view count, especially on a monetized channel. Just a thought.
[NOTE: The above only applies to cover versions of a copyrighted song; the rights holders have full control of the recording itself. If you were to trot out the original 1968 Beatles recording on a monetized video, the wrath of Apple Corps's legal team would rain down upon thy head like a box of roofing tiles.]
Even showing some clips of the og recording could fall into "fair use" category (with some credit of course) lmao
But teaching something methodical? Like sleight of hand move? Idk
I think magic industries should take a few notes from music industries since they fall into same category (performance arts). You can't just put copyright into something technical since everyone with a braincell can come up with similiar idea.
(Goddamnit, this reminds me of vanilla ice vs queen drama)
Oh 100% copyright is an immensely complicated issue I attempt to simplify in a few words here. So many loopholes, exceptions and strange rules to get your head around! I appreciate the correction!
@@CavanBooth1 Well my account with ascap tracks my creations. What tracks illusionists’ content, methods, creations?
The better reality here is that the method underlying almost every trick is in the public domain. Ellusionist alleged but did not establish that Ekat is revealing the same illusion they claim they own.
The question what I have where does the Sterling begin? Because if you Think about it noone could use a double lift because someone thought of it before
Yeah, some people think that tilting your hand to a different angle makes it a different move.
Most things are just variations of things we’ve known of for years.
I personally feel that if I see an effect and come up with a method it is not my creation. Many people don’t feel the same way.
I have independently come up with a couple things that were already invented. It’s not theft. Selling ideas out of my own head can’t be illegal even if it doesn’t feel right to me.
thats crazy, I remember that review that she spilled the drink on.... I didn't know that was yours.
🤣 Yep! Can't find it now, must've been taken down ahah
If you watch a trick and then be able to reverse engineer it,you have the right to show your work.
Thats my belief.
Well done. Everyone is scared to call her out
Way before YT and the net as we know it now, in the early to late 90's I was one half of a double act, we did crazy magic performances, using guns, straight jackets, magic bags and home made props and all sorts, some of our ideas were taken on by other performers BUT these other performers asked us if they could use our ideas and we said yes, only one didn't, he ended up as the last 'real' human as a well known 'kitchen spray' (Mr Muscle TV Adverts) and I not seen him again, Karma me thinks.
Funny Ellusionist is concerned about theft but is not concerned with streamed products that I purchased and I can no longer access.
That helmet threw me off lol
I don’t know about this Bounty Hunter thing… a bit North Korea.
Why does the magic Industry always go too far..
Ekat is the cringyist cringlord. Speaking of cringe E :( oh my.
Yo cavan, Craig Petty just talked about your channel in his recent Love/Hate list
Quite some time ago there was already some hoo Haa when she 'taught' card warp.
As a long term Bounty hunter I am still searching for sweet shops that still stocks them and many a gray area can be found in my beard There is channels that sell items created/built by them self's on a well know site but are not there's morally to do so top of box gaff as example
Never down with exposing magic, but neither balance palm nor ring through finger were invented by Branden Wolf or Justin Miller, respectively. Ellusionist may be reaching with this
Waw I didn't think that youtuber (I can't spell her name) did this! I was just watching her yesterday actually. A ring vedio.
Very interesting vedio cavan.
I just went to her CZcams channel. Unless she's pulled off the reveal videos there's really nothing much on her channel apart from a few reviews and some card manipulation stuff.
The reveals are on her Shorts, but some will already have been taken down
Wow the magic trick it's so fool me 😅😅😅
she seems to have taken those vids down
You got a shout out from Craig Petty.
The other problem is smaller companies and independent creators would not be able to pay the bounty 😢
Ээээ, а ну не надо трогать нашу Русскую девушку🤗
Она великолепно показывает трюки и обучает им!!!
Pretty sure you CAN copyright a method if it's wholly original. Was the trick in question? Obviously you have to work to the best of one's knowledge but you file the claim, then the burden of proof lays upon the defendant to prove that it's not (wholly original). I completely agree with the community self-policing, but it sounds like the company are either not copyrighting stuff properly, or not doing their due diligence on the copyright the 'creator' says they already have. If so, unfortunately, it's fair game.
Lastly the amounts they are paying are absolutely nothing compared to the legal fees. $50 would get them maybe a quarter of an hour with a legal professional. And I don't like the bit about them 'not being able to see it because she blocked them'. This is nonsense because they can just make other accounts, they are just trying to stir up the community imho (morally I believe they are right) to save huge money on legal fees and get more people looking for them. I don't know their turnover/profit (if they are very small I could understand a bit more, and I do agree with the idea of the greater community playing a part, but they have to be 100% upfront, and they weren't with that part).
I love Bounty Hunter Booth❤
harry potter
Ehhh ngl I do still follow Ekaterina and do like her videos, tutorials (mainly bc of her voice tho, it's kinda relaxing) but apart from the evident discussion about wether or not it's copyright infringemente. If I see a creator that doesn't need or should reveal an ellusionist trick and it's evident it's a rip off. I think I might forward it to them. I used to look for those vids myself to avoid buying tricks. But I only did that bc they were avaiable. And there are just so many awesome tricks for every level of magicians out there, if it takes a bit more of time to find something that isn't stolen from someone elses work then I'd say it's ok.
Who owns double lift??
Let Ekat rest
Just curious, what would you classify as public domain? Every method was invented by somebody, even if it's easily accessible now. There are many examples of a method that was original taught in a product for sale, and then were taught on CZcams and everyone just assumed it was public domain from there. Magic Orthodoxy has a video on this exact topic if you want to check it out. Even a method that's 200 years old was often times originally published in a book.
For the record, I agree with your moral stance that you present in this video. This just seems like a grey area and a double standard so it'd be great to get some clarification.
Copyright has a time limit.
@@kimchi_b Okay, so how about things published in the last 15 years that were taught on CZcams and everyone does now? There's still a lot left to cover
@@dylanbradshaw8706 If they are WHOLLY ORIGINAL (never previously published in hundreds of years of documented magic!) effects AND the creator or seller took out proper copyright at the correct time then you claim that I believe. (see my other comments). Otherwise it's just a CZcams reporting 'witchhunt' imo.
@@dylanbradshaw8706 I agree my friend, this opens a can of worms potentially.
@@kimchi_b Most magic methods aren't actually copyrightable in the first place, a lot of gimmicks aren't patentable either. Magicians really need to understand that ethics rules around exposure, permission, etc pretty much have nothing to do with actual IP law.
Normally by searching social media with the person's name plenty of posts pop up ,just searched for ekat and nothing of substance..just her posts. Imagine if Craig Petty was doing what she has done,the magic community would be in meltdown 😂
Nothing about ekat content is sexual… seriously. “Showing your ass” I think that is taking it a bit far. Just unethical.
Yeah. Odd comment, isn't it?
@@CavanBooth1 my first thought
Me teaching a research paper of another professor to my students is legally NOT “copyright infringement”. Me downloading their paper and sharing it or sharing the data and diagrams and sharing it with my students is indeed theft.
i would say they are copyright infringements.
it is art and therefore I think the laws that exist for art, copyrights, apply.
with gimmicks it is quite clear
It depends on the copyright the individual or the company filed (if it was protective enough, and if the key part of the trick is wholly original).
The fact there are people within these comments, Magicians even, defending her is sad. Come on you blind blind people! Justin Miller started this movement. Magicians Against Piracy. Ellusionist is now backing it along with many others and you are slowing that down. You’re hurting that process. Getting these NOT magicians out of this beautiful community. Holding them accountable for their actions. We finally have some traction. Why slow that down?! Shame🔔Shame🔔Shame🔔
The thing with this issue is, what counts as piracy?
f you show someone a method that's not yours in real life, are you pirating? Probably not.
But, if you send them (one person) exclusively a video of you doing the same method, is that piracy? I don't think so.
But a youtube short is just like that, but sending it to people who you don't know. Is that the difference? It's a very gray area.
Super gray, and well put, that really makes you think!
Here's the thing. You can't actually "copyrighted" a method. Imagine if someone just copyrighted bottom deal as their signature moveset. You and other magician would punching the air if that case happens.
Counter piracy is usually use and applied for a product (like music, movies etc) magic products included. Hence, if someone came up with same method as the magic "product" that already existed, there's only two possibilities:
1. Coincidence, whether it was purely originality coincidence or reverse engineering coincidence.
2. Obvius reproduce and "reselling", when you just go buy a products, cracked it open, and sharing it to public without the creator's consent, whether for free or profit. Thus you can get copyright lawsuit by it.
Both Ekat and Ellusionist need to clarify these mess. Its just my opinion, but if this thing still continue, this will ended up bad for both parties.
@@harya7517 You can copyright a method if it's original. Check out VERY MANY very vague patents by Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo for examples!
Legally it's not a grey area at all, it's 100% not piracy because the method of that trick is not protected IP. Morally it's more dubious obviously, but IMO if you are going to start a bounty problem, you'd better be focusing on people that are actually breaking the law, otherwise it invites a heap of problems.
@@kidthorazine Thanks for clarifying the trick in question. That is key really imo. They can appeal to the content creator on moral grounds then, but starting a CZcams reporting 'witchhunt' is not acceptable to me.
Damn these controversy things are just kinda... dumb imo.
First, without legal lawsuit action, this bounty hunters system is just plainly pointless.
Second, without providing some evidence (from both party: the "allegedly" suspect and the victim) not only it is morally wrong but it is very "hot take" system to do by E.
I ain't see the bigger picture yet, so I will not came with the conclusion. Someone has to step up clear this mess, and providing some legit evidence.
"Biggest Magic Thief..." that's a bit much.
the reason is because her vids are getting crazy views someone who posts shin lims whole routine does it matter if it gets 2 views?
@@zarakkhan3408 His whole routine?! hmmm I just looked but can't find a video she does like that can you tell me what video that is so I know you're not just making that up?
@@zarakkhan3408 Also your sentence contradicts itself "reason is because her vids are getting crazy views" vs "does it matter if it gets 2 views"
@@Handzoffire it does matter even if u get 0 but my point is if for example shin Lim tomorrow decided to steal alot of peoples work and posted it for free it would have a worse effect then someone with no views and kinda unknown
@@Handzoffire there was som dude who posted his routine explaining it before he does that for alot of creators irehman something
So if I show a method to fish is that copyright infringement? Someone sure as hell invented it before me. Or food cooking videos for that matter. What makes showing a method of fooling people a crime? I can see the moral issue, gentlemens code and unwritten rules etc but I don't know. This is hard
This is an idiots hot take of intellectual property (not copyright, patents, or trademarks as the video is framing it).
u most likely cant do it with magic its just a respectful thing
I talk VERY specifically about how this isn't legally a copyright issue. Watch the video.
@@CavanBooth1 I agree it's just respect
Unacceptable for someone stealing magic tricks and exposing tricks to the wider audience
my advice is to magicians take legal action because it is a crime to steal a trick it has to be permission protect the Secrets
Sounds like you need a history lesson
Art that is expanded on isn’t theft. There is no such thing in Art
she didnt expand lol she just copied and pasted
She used her own hands and edited the video so no intellectual property was stolen@@zarakkhan3408
It's not illegal however none of you should be teaching magic where the public can access it back in my day when I was a much younger magician in 1973 we had to go to the library or find a master magician also go to the magic stores. You guys all of you are destroying the mystery in magic!😢
Or are we pushing the boundaries of what's possible. Nobody thinks this is real magic. The talent is in the hands. I know how a ton of tricks are done but still get a chubby when it doen right. Like guitar. I'll shred circles around folks. But I'm still moved by 3 chord songs. Magic is an art. My appreciation for this art form has increased largely due to the community on here.
@@devinreed5725 this is not how it's done you're supposed to do the research yourself it should not be accessible to the public you're taking the magic and the Mystery out of magic. My stuff looks so realistic I have to tell people I'm doing tricks multiple times during my show I know what I'm talking about because I won Magician of the year three years in a row and I had one of the top 10 magic shows on the Las Vegas Strip
There's no such thing as "intellectual property" if you don't want people to know a secret, don't tell anyone. Period. The only way you can "own" an idea is to keep it to yourself.
If it’s their original creation then anyone raised with a decent set of morals/personal standards wouldn’t feel comfortable profiting from exposing it for free just for clout- its real bottom feeder behaviour from desperate people with little else to offer clearly.
@@allynlawson if you create something new, once you sell it, it no longer belongs to you. Now you can argue your own subjective version of what you believe is moral or ethical, but no one else is obligated to abide by it. I said what I said. If you want to keep a secret, keep it to yourself.