The Problem With The Magic Circle.
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- čas přidán 11. 10. 2023
- The Magician Club: themagician.club/
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I 100% agree with you on this and even Craig Petty who has such a strong view on exposure believes youtube tutorials aren't exposure because people have to take time out of their day to learn the secrets which proves that they truly have the want to learn and perform not to just know how the tricks are done.
100% agree with you, I am a member of the YMC (young magicians club) and without youtube tutorials, I would not have learnt nearly as much magic as I have now. I agree with everything you've said and I hope the magic circle make a change to these rules.
Looks like the Magic Circle are firmly stuck in the past. Thanks for your content Cavan.
Getting banned, or not accepted by "The Magic Circle".. as you may know.. is a badge of honour. Other carriers of that badge : Penn & Teller.
I wear it with pride🏆
This was said so well! Completely agree and think it is such a shame. Like a REAL massive massive shame. People who have a love for magic might never discover it and the whole pay to win thing is so true. I get that its a small sacrifice to show dedication to magic but it is the wrong sacrifice. the right sacrifice is putting the time in. not money. ugh it is upsetting and as a member of the magic circle i cant wait to see this change! Get that vote going now Marvin!😂
🙌 Thank you! Bring on The Magic Circle revolution!
I agree that there is a difference between exposure and teaching magic for the sake of expanding knowledge on said subject.
I totally agree with the magic circle being stuck in the past. The videos that piss me off are the ones I see where they are literally just exposing a trick for the sake of exposing it, but I agree that it's completely different than the stuff that you, Spidey, Alex Pandrea, and others are doing. I have always loved magic but only a few years ago did I finally decide to give it a try. I watched some CZcams tutorials and learned to do a couple of sleights (badly). This fueled my interest and I bought my first magic book, which is when I consider my journey to have officially begun.
Fast forward to about a month ago: I performed a close-up parlor show that ended with a standing ovation. If it weren't for magicians like you making tutorial videos, that incredible experience would never have been possible.
I would say you were not accepted by the Magic Circle. I would not say you were banned. That is too harsh. It’s like applying to a college and not being accepted. I would not think the college is banning you. Just my opinion though. Don’t feel too bad about it. ❤❤
Absolutely, I think banned is the wrong word to use.
Banned, rejected, not accepted. I went with the more dramatic synonym for the title
It's certainly not harsh he is essentially banned from ever becoming a member, unless of course he bows to their pharisaical conditons stemming from a rule that clearly the president himself is breaking and getting well paid for it. Despite the attempts to modernise & freshen the image, it remains an antiquated tragic cirlce.
I should say though, I agree with the rest of the video, it's setting a double standard and the society clearly lacks transparency in their decision making.@@CavanBooth1
I completely agree. The best argument you could make for why it's ok to sell magic would probably be that non-magicians are highly unlikely to buy magic products, whereas non magicians are more likely to watch a free youtube video. But I don't at all agree with that argument - I don't think many non-magicians actually watch magic tutorials and when they do, they are people who are interested in magic and fairly likely to become a magician or at least perform a few tricks.
I do think there does need to be some barrier that ensures that magic isn't constantly being revealed to laypeople who have and will have no interest in ever performing it. For example, I don't really agree with teaching/explaining tricks in a youtube short or a tiktok.
But I certainly don't think that all magic should have to be behind a paywall. Longform tutorials on youtube strike a perfect balance - they are accessible to everyone, which both helps people start magic (it's what got me started) and allows people who can't afford to buy tricks to have access to a variety of magic - but they also don't overly expose things to the general public.
I did a magic trick for my friends. And somebody said, he couldn’t figure out. He also said, he watched some tricks on youtube and it doesn’t help him to learn the secrets. BECAUSE, he isn’t really interessed in magic learning. If someone is not really interessed in a particular subject, it remains alien to him/her.
Hi Cavan, what a sad story. But let me assure you that you are in good company. Like you I started with a magic kit for kids.
Back in the 80ties, I was 15 years old and my father (not a magician) knew a member of the local magic circle (in Germany). I wanted to join because I saw no way to advance in the art. So we were invited to meet them. I remember a group of old cigar smoking old men, showing me magic tricks (not explaining). A week later they rejected my application because quote: "I was too young". Years later I became a full time professional magician. A decade later in the 90ties I was friends with two women, working as full time kids magicians. They got rejected by the same local circle because quote: "women can not be a magician". In that time the female duo and I got a lot of positive press exposure in the local newspapers. In fact they and I were the only full time professionals in our area. The local circle then sent one of their oldest members to explain to us that "magicians should be in the magic circle" and asked us to apply for a membership. Understandably we politely denied.
This organization is obviously stuck in the past and it is sad that they seem to be unable to move on.
Honestly, where does the Magic Circle think the new young magicians are going to come from. Do they want the art to become extinct? Dinosaurs. Keep up the good work.😊
The magic community is too toxic
Maybe it's time to start getting into other communities in the world... Oh wait.........
I completely agree with you. But unfortunately, show business is full of hypocrites...You seem like a cool magician. I love Magic. I'd like to discuss it sometime. -Darnell Weeks
Have you considered starting your own magic society? One that meets in person, maybe once a month? With a less stringent application process and more acceptance for everyone, you’d have more members in no time. They’d be mainly amateurs who may not be that good, but that’s the point of joining a magic society! To learn from better people to get better yourself. This ridiculous, general standard of being able to deny anyone they want based on any grounds they make up (serious students and historians of magic? Give me a damn break) is the reason so many of us haven’t even tried to apply for these clown shows. Yeah, they’re making more magicians through discrimination and exclusivity. Sure. I’d join your magic club. Not your tutorial archive. I’d join your club. If it accepted anyone. I’m anyone. Not famous. Not talented. I just love magic and I want to meet with people once a month to hang out and talk magic. A large group would be fun.
This is what I would love to build The Magician Club into! Having a physical meet-up once a month would be so great!
@@CavanBooth1 It would be. I’m also gonna be candid here, I live in Texas. I can’t come to a meet-up. BUT! Can I give money to an organization that I like? If you put together a club that meets at least once a month and accepts everyone who wants to join for a small fee that even a child could contribute (5 to 10 bucks a month is pretty reasonable) and you post videos which I know you would already but I’m still gonna say it, then I would be happy to contribute even though I can’t be there. I just want regular people to have a safe and encouraging space to practice with experienced magicians, or whatever! Have a lecture (not too boring, please), lessons, some sort of small syllabus or criteria, or don’t! Just have it be free roam! I know that having a fair number of people in one space needs some order, but who knows? Magicians are weird, and has this ever been done before? Like this? A small fee and no one trying to sell you anything, or it’s just not the main focus? (you’ll never stop magicians from selling stuff) The main focus being just to hang and learn? For everyone? It only affects the people around you in your area, but if it’s successful and you even turn a profit, it would be a grand lesson to all places where amateur magicians live (everywhere). Hell, I’m thinking of doing it here! I know San Antonio’s only magic shop owner. I’ll get Julio to help me organize. This is fun to think about. Sorry for the rant. I won’t do it again. Too much reading!
Welcome to the banned / kicked from The Magic Circle Club.
🤝
I think the magic circle has not yet arrived in the present. much further from the future.
When you read about it, it has something of a church or sect.
an elitist group that wants to stay among itself.
not being wanted is actually a badge of honor
Some very unfortunate similarities to the Catholic Church, if you get what I mean...
I recently attended a Marvin Berglas lecture and slowly descended into sleep. He prattled on about salesmanship and life goals...and zzz...zzzz...
Cavan, I’ve enjoyed your videos, your teaching, and your ideas for some time. A majority of thinking magicians will find your comments spot on. I am thankful for your contributions and hope you have more to share in years to come. You are a treasure.
Wow, thank you so much! Means a lot!
"We protect all Magic secrets totally. However, will give you any secret you want, whoever you are, as long as you pay for it... If you don't have money or you are poor, you don't deserve to become a Magician." - The Old Farts Club
How do they respond to the Magic circle in South Africa where I live? The circle here goes to the poorest communities and teaches Magic as well as gives out starter Magic kits otherwise Magic in this country would simply die... and believe me, it has been dying in this place for a while now.
Sounds like a great time to start a new “magic circle” with the focus on education and appreciation for the art.
Lets start a new society!
Sad. I have like 1 or 2 tutorial. Double Lift. I hope I don't get banned for teaching something like that. My goal is to join them.
This video has opened my eyes to the reality of what Magic means to me. I don't need acceptance if they can't keep up with me. I have my own beliefs and I can't be limited by a Group that can see pass what truly matters
Absolutely agree with you brother. That is just ridiculous man. What a joke!!!
I agree and I like your clips where you teach magic tricks
100% agree with you.
you weren't banned. i still think you're right 100%. but you weren't banned. there's still a chance, as Bob said
Only if I remove the tutorials, which as I say, is not going to happen.
If it makes you feel any better, Cavan, I was an apprentice there for a year. When I auditioned to become MMC they rejected me. Their reason?
Because I didn’t wear a suit.
Nothing about the effects or the presentation of said effects. No suit.
Legit. That was their reason.
Insane. Sad they lost out on you for such a stupid reason
Wow. If true, this is actually worse than the reason I got rejected! They rejected on you on a presentational choice?? That's ridiculous
It was a long time ago so I thought perhaps membership standards weren’t so borderline fossilised anymore but, after seeing this, perhaps not!
The library there is an irrefutable plus to being a member. And having that logo on promo stuff helps I’m sure. But what promo works better than that? Word of mouth. Beats that logo every time.
Additionally, personally, why should I travel to London a maybe couple of times a month to sit with some magicians, some of whom, while technically brilliant are pompous, elitist and arrogant, when I can meet with a couple of local magicians who are not like that and enjoy a coffee together for a fraction of the price?
There are nice people there, however. Ben Hart is welcoming, Jasz Vegas was friendly too. As was Jamie Raven. Unfortunately that was outweighed by all the other issues. Maybe I’ll try again if I hear things change as it’s a place with massive potential. But not soon. It’s a shame.
I love your channel so much keep it up
Thank you so much!
Ha! By a strange coincidence, I've only minutes ago commented on another of your vids about my own application, and decision not to start posting tutorials on my own channel having read their rules and Constitution, which make their position on this matter explicitly clear. I was granted an audition in early December but haven't yet been given a date.
We'll see what happens next.
Very kind answer, while all they deserved was a kind 'go fuck yourself' from the start😂
Some of the first tricks I learnt were from a book that I hired from the library for free.
In my opinion, the only argument worth listening to in regards to why selling magic is better than giving magic away is the notion that one has to literally buy into something to learn a trick. As opposed to someone just searching for the method to spoil the art form. It makes the spoilers less likely when they have to pay for a method.
The problem with that concept, to me, is twofold.
1. Not everyone can afford everything they have to pay for to even get started in magic. Which means you shrink the coming generation of potential magicians if it's limited to only those with the resources, as you suggested.
2. It's not totally honest from the magician selling the tricks anyway. Sure, they might want to protect the art, but the point of the sale is to make money. That's the primary goal. So, to me, any point about protecting the art form loses weight when it's only a byproduct of your true intention.
/rant
There's also the fact that between youtube and piracy, paywalls aren't actually keeping anything secret anymore anyway. But we're talking about a group that didn't allow women until 1991 and has banned people for selling magic books below a certain price point in the past, so expecting them to keep up with the times seems like an exercise in futility.
@@kidthorazine also true.
Great
12:40 Again, in my opinion, but most people are interested in magic because of secrets too. If you make an open days, how many kids/adults would feel that this is something magical and surreal if they can held some props
It's pathetic that they think they are this important and influential.
Most of your demographic are people who are already interested in magic
Can we join the magic square instead joke but agree with you buddy, perhaps this is something the new president will change 👍
Personally I prefer The Magic Triangle 🙃
@@CavanBooth1 Or the Magic Three Wavey Lines perhaps but dont sweat it buddy, as long as you bring joys to others then all is good :)
You asked for an argument that's it's only ok to teach magic when it's in exchange for money. As I understand it, the money serves as a sort of proxy for a test of "bona fides" or good faith. The rule is to teach only to "bona fide" students and historians of magic. In other words, teach only people who are learning for the right reasons (not just to satisfy their curiosity). To charge a fee, to require membership to a website, or to require download of an app -- any of these things are minor hurdles designed to create a small test of the learner's interest/good faith. It's not a perfect system but as a practical matter it filters out access by many people motivated by only fleeting curiosity.
I get that, and its certainly an argument I used when I started magic and was "anti-tutorial", that the money essentially filters the less dedicated people out. But so does taking the time to learn the trick! Its a tricky one, no pun intended
What is the precise definition of exposure in the realm of magic? Exposure refers to the act of teaching or sharing intellectual property without the magician's permission. This definition may seem straightforward with little room for ambiguity. However, it is important to distinguish between different forms of magic exposure, each with its own legal and ethical considerations.
1. Sharing or teaching licensed, contractual, or commercially limited use magic effects is clear-cut and generally prohibited. There is no gray area in this regard.
2. Sharing or teaching magic by revealing another magician's secrets with the intent to harm their reputation constitutes an act of defamation. This, too, is unambiguous.
3. Sharing or teaching magic to gain an unfair competitive advantage by utilizing another magician's secrets or techniques falls into a similar category with clear ethical and legal boundaries.
4. The sharing or teaching of trade secrets in the realm of magic presents a more intricate situation. It hinges on whether the secrets are legally protected as trade secrets, safeguarded against unauthorized disclosure or theft. This category resides in a gray area, raising questions about when sharing or teaching magic qualifies as revealing trade secrets.
This gray area is a significant challenge, as it's often contingent on the protection granted by trade secret laws, which encompass methods, techniques, or devices used in magic performances. Defining this threshold poses a dilemma. Determining what constitutes a trade secret falls under the purview of entities like The Magic Circle. Their role is not entirely right or wrong, but rather a subject of scrutiny.
There is a pressing need to examine, modernize, and standardize this area to ensure that magicians who aspire to teach and assist others in mastering the art are not unfairly marginalized.
Excellently articulated points 👏
The problem with that definition is that the vast majority of magic methods are not intellectual property in any way shape or form.
The next step is to determine what constitutes protected trade secrets and what should be permissible to teach. Should it be limited to beginner-level magic resources found in public libraries or in magic books whose secrets have long been in the public domain and accessible by laypersons? Then again, "The Expert at the Card Table" is referenced by magicians, but it is not a magic book. Should teaching techniques introduced by S. W. Erdnase for the purpose of cheating at games of chance be considered disclosure if taught?
Obviously, there are many magic techniques, gimmicks, gaffs, and tricks in the public domain-resources anyone can share, manufacture and sell without violating copyright or patents, but they are still protected trade secrets. How will we discriminate between what discloses a trade secret or not when it comes to teaching? Should it be allowed or not? In what context could a fledgling magician be introduced to a stripper deck? Would teaching the fundamentals of a stripper deck differ from teaching the expert handlings of the stripper deck found in "A New Angle" by Plunkitt and Feldman or the Mental Photography "Whitewash" download by Rick Lax? Is there any difference between teaching the fundamentals and the expert handlings, or are they one and the same?
Defining what can be considered fair use and what is a proprietary trade secret, even though the magic effect can be manufactured and distributed ad hoc without any concern for legal jeopardy, would still definitively fall under the trade secret umbrella.
To be honest, it seems to me that we have a paradox here. It's going to be extraordinarily difficult to agree on a middle ground, which is why it is unlikely to change. A rule that is not enforced for all is indeed hypocrisy, but we may not know the entire nature of what we can at least perceive as disclosure by members of the Magic Circle, and poking the hornets' nest doesn't generally end well for the keeper of the stick.
I do believe magicians who intend to teach magic should form their own "Mystic Mentors' magic circle and work with each other to determine if a magic resource they plan to offer through social media is appropriate and in alignment with protecting magic trade secrets.
Forget the magic circle
There is a difference of selling magic or exposing magic for free on CZcams.
And there’s a big difference between exposure and teaching
Lol some magicians have such a stick up their ass. Screw that elitist club.
Also, boohoo someone shared a secret to a magic trick. If people don't like your act, it's because you're a crap show person, not because they maybe know how the trick is done. The percentage of the audience that cares about that kind of thing is so tiny, it's not worth bending over for them. It's the journey and narrative you build in that moment that is the hook - we all know it's fake, no one goes into a magic show thinking what they are seeing is real. They just want to have a good time.
Penn and Teller have made a career "exposing" magic as an inherent part of their act, yet they are two of the most successful and well known magicians alive today because they are bloody entertaining whilst doing so. Funny that.
There is a good argument why magic shouldn't be for free. It's making the magic cheaper. Even your effect, if you publish it on CZcams and teach - your decision, but what's not cool in general about it? People see much less value about the art. That's how it works in my opinion.
Dude u need a podcast!!
👀
I Think teaching is giving noledg and nolegd should be free so that everybody Can learn something
I ent too bothered to be fair, but i see ur point tho. One rule for one - another rule for another.
they ent sure if u dont see eye to eye with them at some point, u mite tell shit u wasnt ment too.. Seems like a clicky click vibe to me..
I hope they see what ur about and change there minds to be honest but dont lose sleep over the Circle Cavan.. Its there loss ...look at it that way eh..
Cheers ZSR
well cavan, i 100% agree with you, your arguments, your complaints everything.. its BS
Is your youtube channel monetized ......
But it cost us nothing. Thats the point
But nobody would spend so much time creating content unless they were making money doing it. It may be 'free' to watch, but a creator gets paid.
Yes, my channel is monetized - I never said I was against people earning money from their work. Selling secrets /profiting off secrets isn't the issue - its thinking that no secret should be free that I take issue with. Hope that clear it up, good point though!
Hypocrites! They put out a record when I was a kid and on it Alan Shaxton revealed the floating sausage trick!
I agree, it's a major hypocrisy to call magic tutorials by you exposure but deny that the free ones by the current president aren't. I'd go further by saying that mass produced plastic magic sets expose secrets far more than a CZcams magic tutorial. It's a problem when you make such a big deal out of secrecy but not enough of the artistry. As an amateur magician (and some time children's entertainer/magician) I enjoy watching magicians perform even when I know the secrets if the performance is good.
Hi mi name is Benjamin
I'm 13 years old and i love magic. I speak spanish and english .my dream is to Be the best magician in the world one day
The Magic Circle are hypocritical, quelle surprise!
In that sense, Magic is like Prostitution. Its illegal, until you bring a camera, then its called porn, and legal. Magic giving for free is exposure, but take money, then its teaching. But seriously, The good reason to take money is obviously, to make the entrancebarrier higher and only dedicated people will learn. It also helps to encorage creators to create new things. However, you cant undo social Media.Expsosure is here to stay.
I get the logic, but money equalling "dedication" means that poorer magicians are seen as "less dedicated" which is very unfair
Pardon my English but one point is that you make money from CZcams videos.
But it cost us nothing. Thats the point
Yes, I do. But profiting off secrets isn't the issue - its the idea that "no secret should be free" that I take issue with. Creators still deserve to be paid for their work, of course.
Now you can make your on Magic Circle 👍😊👍
It’d be interesting to see at what price the rules change. 1 pence a month to access tutorials?
Ha! Such a good point!
You are not banned. They said you could reapply if you made the changes that coincide with their rules of membership. Sounds like you applied just to make this video.
I think it's sad that so much magic is being given away for clicks and likes, there's enough out there for everyone to learn if they so decide, they don't need more..
The biggest problem is most people who view your channel won't be bothered about learning just wanting to find out how they are done. Your doing this for your own gains, why not show your shows secrets before you perform. Sure that will be great, some magicians maybe doing there show that you decide to expose and may have worked years to perfect it.
Please don't say your doing it for others your doing this for totally for yourself. Think about what your saying! like the magic circle are wrong and your right. I was brought up a good magician never exposes how there tricks are done
Dude, STOPPP WHINING!!!! Seriously, what the hell? Stop whining and crying because you got rejected…. OKAY WE FEEL SORRY for you…. Now stop…. they have a point!!
I usually like your videos but I am no fan of clickbait. You were not banned. You were simply not accepted, but even in the first email they state what could be done to potentially join.
If you were banned they would not have given you a way to rectify the situation in their eyes and re-apply
Very disappointed that you’ve chosen to go the click bait route. It completely undermines your entire video as if we cannot trust you to be honest in the titles, there’s little reason to trust the rest of what you have to say.
I hope you come back to the light and leave the clickbait titles behind you.
I really don't think the word "banned" is misleading at all. I cannot enter, therefore I am banned from entering.
@@CavanBooth1 except that the very first email you got from they explicitly stated that if you took down your social media you would be at least able to re-apply, something that would not happen had you have actually been banned.
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here as I enjoy your channel, but to do so would require me to question your intelligence and I know that you are an intelligent and educated individual who knows the meaning of the word “banned”.
Sadly I suspect that you chose that word knowing that it would bring you views. It did, I clicked because of it. But when it became clear that you hadn’t been banned but your application had simply been denied it was very disappointing. I get the temptation to resort to click bait, I mean we all have bills to pay. It’s just disappointing.
Not enough to get me to unsubscribe but if this keeps up I’ll have to re-address that.
I honestly wish you all the best and yours is one of my favorite magic CZcams channels. I just want to see you continue to rock and not go down that dark path of click bait and gross exaggeration
The difference is people search how a trick is done and then watch your video. A very small percentage of the people you are showing it to will ever use it. You are ruining magic for more people then you are helping get into it.
Marvin may be the president of the magic circle. But youre the president of the magician club!
To be honest I thought the rule was don't expose dealer tricks. But stuff like the double lift or you're own effects or effects allreddy on youtube twisted and given credit to. I thought was fine
Viva la Magican Club!