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Tesla Plaid - 12 volt Lithium Battery PART 1
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- UPDATE: See part 2 after this: • Update! Part 2 - Tesl...
If you'd like to support my channel, I have a donation link here: / ingineerix
Talking about Tesla's newest 12v architecture as well as history of 12v in automotive.
NXP BMS: www.nxp.com/do...
UPDATE: I think the internal cells are CATL 6.9Ah NMC prismatic cells in a 1P4S arrangement. See part 2: • Update! Part 2 - Tesl...
On the top it says 99 Wh. Perfectly matching the 100 Wh limit for carry-on Luggage.
I'm sure this is no accident =)
Often you can travel with 150Wh.. A lot of laptop etc batterypacks are over 100Wh
But why 😂
@@rkan2 Can you give me a link to a laptop with a battery higher than 100wh ? I would love to have this kind of battery life
@@rkan2 don't think so. MacBooks are capped at 100Wh
11:00 I've learned the hard way that the 12v is entirely on its own during some parts of the OTA install where the software for the DC-DC converter will logically be "OFF". IF your 12v battery was on the verge of going bad and it can't support this time (large install?) then your install may stop partway thru. This happened to me in NH where Tesla doesn't have service centers and didn't help with mobile. Booster pack hooked to the 12v for 30+ minutes let the install complete. The 12v battery needs service showed up the next day while on our way to our home state. Had to find a service center ASAP.
Yes, this is correct. The battery monitoring is now good enough to prevent updates if there is not enough capacity to "ride it out".
@@Ingineerix like an iPhone….needs at least 50% to allow firmware update
advantage of these lithium packs is you have a much better idea of actual capacity, while with lead you're kind of guessing.
@@edc1569 Yes, and no. Even with Li, SOC is an educated guess based on voltage. There's really no way to know how much power is in the battery without actually keeping track of it. (ala NiMH.) I have plenty of batteries that show their full rated voltage but have next to no current in them. (some laptops will do full cycles to re-tune the capacity of the battery. e.g. the 12yo thinkpad next to me... 7% remains. :-) It'll last about 5min on that battery.)
Better than Munro teardowns :)
No mention of fastener quantities. Nice 😊
@@dorhocyn3 Yeah that guy always painfully rambles about the amount of screws used, sometimes I felt like a grocery bag full of air had more content than his videos.
The Monroe teardowns remind me of a college courses I’ve taken that I really don’t actually want to be in but need to get whatever information and knowledge I possibly can anyway.
I'll vouch for this guys extensive knowledge of high current. This video takes me back around 35 years ago when Phil was experimenting with a TV flyback transformer in his bedroom and asked me to hold on to the high current end 😂
Great to see you sharing your years of experience and knowledge 🤟😎
I agree
@Author B.L. Alley That's what your mom said.
awww I really wanted to see the cells
Too much work, smoke and fire to chisel them out of the epoxy. Just getting to cover off was a 30 minute operation.
Bet there is a heating element in there
@@Ingineerix i would guess they did not get any heater in there, nor use self heating to warm to batteries, that would be risky, since there is to many ways a cold 12V battery would not be able to recharge. My guess is they used LTO batteries (Lithium titanate oxide) that are happy to charge or discharge at even -20C. That would also explain the huge size for such a small battery too. So it would be interesting to see the cells in it, what form factor, size and all. Btw ste there components on the bottom side of the PCB too?
The 33Ah of the AGM battery are not the usable capacity. In order to prevent damaging the battery, you can only discharge it to about 50%, so 16.5Ah usable capacity. And that is much closer to the LiIon replacement.
Actually, lead acid suffers for Peukert's effect, actual useable capacity is much closer to 27% with typical automotive batteries. This would translate to about 8.9Ah, pretty close to the Li-ion replacement.
Thanks for you skilled approach, your videos are very professional and comes clean with nothing unnessesary stuff.
Love your videos. Great explanations for people who are not well versed in these systems.
Thank you!
I've been hit with more than 26,000 DC volts. You don't just say swear words. You invent swear words. No existing swear word covers the feeling.
you dont know shit about electricity, volts are not the same as amps, amps its what kills you.
@@gafrancisco Yep I know all about ohms law.
@@randycarter2001 :)
So... you got tazed?
@@Vyckaxxx hahah
Thank you for educating the public about electrical safety. We spend alot of time wrangling between safety and innovation.
Awesome. Was waiting for this one. Looks like retro fit to older s/x is out of question. Much appreciate your work here !
Really good video again, I get blown back every time I see something you have done, it's just so good, thank you so much for your enlightenment to all the rest of us who do not have the knowledge you possess, well done as always
Only issue that I can see is cold temps but other than that this is the architecture to use. Bravo Tesla for dropping that ancient lead acid 12v battery
Funny thing is when my 12v died, it was after a really really cold night and a very low SOC on the main pack. Other than that, I had been super careful with it. Hopefully they have a cold mitigation strategy to warm them up before recharging them.
When you mentioned the new battery is 16 volts, recently the Model 3 battery went dead and a smart charger (ctek) was used to recondition and charge it back up. The recondition mode outputs 16v to de-sulfate the battery. This 16V apparently blew up the Model 3 screen! The screen died and began to smoke, it had to be quickly unbolted and unplugged. After speaking with ctek and few knowledgeable Tesla tech's, they said "automotive grade" parts should accept 16V without issue. I was told the Model 3 screen however was made by LG and questions arose whether it was designed for 16V... Interesting to see the new Plaid using this now!
What brand was the charger? Desulfating chargers use high frequency to breakup the sulfate buildup, might be higher than 16v if you look at it on a scope.
The battery is 1p4s not 2p. It is made by CATL and is of a specific form of Li-On that is very tolerable to cold.
Is it LFP or something else?
Excellent video. I got a feeling I'll be so happy this channel showed up in my recommendations.
I am happy to buy the "broken" battery from you 👌
I am serious, how much?
Sorry, I'm not selling it. Tesla will sell you a new one for $150. Part #1598486-88-C. Note you will not be able to easily use it without the VCBATT controller, as it needs LIN signals to turn on.
@@1kruxi $151
Great stuff Phil. We're very privileged to have you back on the hobby trail again. Curious as to your opinion in general on (super)capacitor based solutions which have made inroads in trucking, forklifts and that sort of use cases. If you have more time: also the more strategic (long-term) outlook of hybrid supercap/battery architectures - assuming self-discharge is acceptable on the caps side - where you could better mix power versus energy density like you would do in old-school computer data storage architectures with mixing f.i. RAM (fast, non-persistent) vs HDD (slower, persistent). Hope the latter question formulation makes sense. Cheers, Jan
Supercaps don't have anywhere near the energy density, and they have a linear dVdT curve which means you have to add complex power conversion.
Supercaps have a phenomenal rate of charge leakage.
With the very large size of the lithium batteries, they can draw immense amounts of current already. I doubt that the very large size and weight combined with very low power density of supercaps would add enough burst power to be useful. You'd also need better cooling systems to keep the drivetrain cool with the extra power.
@@clonkex Ah, that makes sense, thx.
It’s 1P4S as the sticker says so it’s 4 cells in total.
Ha good catch
50-60 Hz happens to be the most dangerous frequency for our bodies. Over 10 times as much DC current is needed to disturb our nerves and stop the heart. So 40 VAC stop heart as easily as 400 VDC.
Please provide proof!
@@universeisundernoobligatio3283 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_injury
A domestic power supply voltage (110 or 230 V), 50 or 60 Hz alternating current (AC) through the chest for a fraction of a second may induce ventricular fibrillation at currents as low as 30 milliamperes (mA).[8] With direct current (DC), 300 to 500 mA is required. ... If not immediately treated by defibrillation, fibrillation is usually lethal
40VAC tingles... 400VDC burns!
Learned that in the "school of hard shocks".
@@stevedresen8497 800 VDC certainly burns. I have got a shock to finger tip from 240 VAC and I did not get burned. Note that 240 VAC is from -340 V to + 340 V peak to peak. = Total 680 V.
Source mentioned above: 'Voltage levels of 500 to 1000 volts tend to cause internal burns due to the large energy available from the source.'
'At around 10 mA, AC current passing through the arm of a 68-kilogram (150 lb) human can cause powerful muscle contractions; the victim is unable to voluntarily control muscles and cannot release an electrified object.'
Note for your tingling experiments: 'It is sometimes suggested that human lethality is most common with alternating current at 100-250 volts; however, death has occurred below this range, with supplies as low as 42 volts.'
@@jkn6644 yeah, that RMS is "killer" ounce rectified and filtered. A 480 VAC invertor's DC bus is almost 600 VDC.
the insulated shoes is the most important point of this video.
Yep so many people dont understand how current flows. Conventional flow is actually dangerous to teach now seeing how common high voltage systems are going to be in the near future.
I don't really get that. Shoes are plausible for working on your home AC system where you are the ground lead and potentially could close the loop by touching the phase lead (with bad shoes). . But working with DC batteries there is no ground lead and you can't close any loop with your feet.
Great!!!! More videos of this detail!!! LOVE IT!
Can't wait to see the 48 volt architecture on the Tesla Cybertruck.
Me too! Hopefully someone will lend me one to explore.
Oh, man, I respect the sacrifice! Thank you for showing this! - Um @9:45 27x60 cell? Did you mean 18650 or 2170?
2170 I'd assume.
4:20 (lul) DC is more dangerous for a given Voltage GIVEN THAT IT PENETRATES. You should add that DC has a way harder time penetrating the body than AC, especially if AC frequency is not the standard 50/60Hz. I recommend electroBOOM if you're interested :)
Watched this vid and pt2 till the end to be sure it wasn't already there before posting this comment. Very interesting videos!
For the human body, DC is less dangerous than AC. At 3:33 "100VDC can be lethal", usually this is not the case.
@@stal5861 anything over 60VDC can be lethal. 100VDC can kill just like 120VAC. The lethal threshold of current is below the level where it can make your muscles clench.
While it’s true that AC can be more easily conducted because the body’s impedance is lower than it’s DC resistance, the threshold for a dangerous voltage is far lower than people realize.
From many tests I’ve read on acid batteries, they’re at best ~60% of advertised capacity, but they can provide really high current without degradation for ICE car startup.
So it seems that’s why it’s 99WH, it’s just enough but yea, funny it’s within flight safety limits
man the knowledge is really impressive I have watched you video for a long time now but you are like a walking Tesla Encyclopedia I think you can challenge the guys at Munro any way you are a great resource for tech information.
Thanks!
Been watching all your videos...I can't wait for the day when you and Sandy get together and talk shop....
27 lbs is more like 12 kg. Just saying. Awesome video as always. Very informative!
Thanks for the vids. May I suggest stills of the pcb's.. ala bigclive. Just really helps seeing the details.
Thanks again.
I'll try to accommodate. I am shooting in 4K now, so you can pause anywhere.
I got to pick one of these up the other day at work. It's amazingly light! I didn't weigh it, but you could easily pick up a few and juggle them. Can't do that with the old deep cycle batteries!
Was hoping to see the cells.
One of the biggest reasons why Pb batteries were used was cold discharge performance in case of DCDC failure or open contactors on the road when it's cold. The EPAS takes ~100A spikes and you do not want to lose that on the highway. Looks like they proved that the lithium can provide that when it's -30 or whatever.
Yeah, you wont be driving too far if you lose HV, so all it has to do it get you to a stop safely. That it can do!
Silly question, why is there a cutout on the top right corner of the box (8:08)? Is there a reason why the lid (and PCB below it) aren't perfectly squared? I know it doesn't make much difference in PCB cost or tooling for the die casts, so maybe it is just to ensure the PCB always gets placed in the right orientation every time? Love your videos!
I think it's to make room for the fasteners. They need a "keep out" area for tools.
As a kid I would play around with valve radios - many had 80v batteries as the HT side IIRC. Since I was used to checking my flat 4v ones for life by touching the pins to my tongue I thought to do the same thing with the 80v……..
Once is enough. I concur with the narrator about highest DC voltage.
A flash arc of high voltage DC is no joke.
Generally when you're adding safety pack disconnects to a custom battery pack is the goal is keep voltages below 72v at any given time?
Also do people usually build they battery enclosures with the safety disconnects built in so that even during pack assembly the voltage is kept low at all times?
Depending on your full pack voltage it may not be practical to kee pany voltage below 72V. The best you can reasonably do is split it in half. Commercial EV packs do not have these safety features. The best they do is HVIL (Interlock) to open the contactors when you open something containing HV.
@@Ingineerix dang, since my plan is to operate at 400v nominal using two Chevy volt packs worth of cells, but dropping to 200v would still be pretty deadly
@@Ryukachoo been hit with 240V mains a few times. Its easily the most pain you'll ever feel. How im still alive is somewhat of a mistery.
@@Ryukachoo Be careful! Seek advice from someone with experience, and engineer your setup so it's safe. You shouldn't need to break the pack into sections to make it safe.
I'm learning so much from you. Just wanted to say thanks.
Nice ruler!
Thanks! =)
Do you know the specs of the DC-DC converter and how it differs from previous models? The DC-DC converters I've looked at in the past for an EV conversion output around 14V, I guess the one in the Model S needs to output more than this to charge this new battery? Is there a charge voltage controller on that circuit board or does it somehow communicate with the DC-DC converter to fine tune the voltage?
The PCS has the DC-DC. It's the same one first used in Model 3. (See my pack teardown video) It's controlled by VCFRONT/VCBATT, and is programmable up to at least 18 volts, so no problem there.
So a 4S pack would be about 16.8V fully charged but it's not god to leave a LiIon fully charged right? So they could just charge it to 16V and use the output FETs and some filtering to output 12 or 13.8V right? As far as cold weather they could disconnect the cells from the DC input while running and direct the DC input to a cell heater. Then once it's warmed up, allow it to charge.
No, they keep the bus at this pack's voltage. It's usually 15-16V. I don't think they go over 4V/cell for longevity.
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 / Kia EV6 while having a 48V wiring system still afaik use a 12V lead acid. I wonder if they eliminated the 10kg (difference between the old Tesla lead-acid and this new lithium ion battery) in wiring... I somehow doubt it. Copper cables are of course more expensive compared to a regular old 12V (for an EV also smaller) battery
Source? I cannot find something to confirm the Ioniq 5 uses 48V wiring. Pretty sure it doesn’t.
Lots of mild hybrids use/used 48V systems, but ALL still have 12v systems as well for the reasons I outlined in the video.
@@geraldh.8047 Hmm.. I though I read this somewhere.. Well - I guess we'll still be waiting for the first car with 48V auxiliary wiring..
You are an excellent orator.
Awesome video! On 13:33, do you know what markings are written on the U39 IC? (Right side)
Thanks! Good details. Surprising if there really is no heater in that battery. Repeatedly discharging enough to generate heat at an already low state of charge when parked for long periods in the cold will likely cause short cell life.
Thanks for the tear down, very informative. Do you know the type of FETs used, I.e. Part number?
The reason for a lead acid 12V battery in a modern car was a Tesla interview question for a while. I'm glad they finally updated the 12V to something better. Shows how cheap Li Ion has finally gotten as they wouldn't do this unless it offered a cost savings over the warranty period (4 years, 50k miles) vs the lead acid
Only time will tell how well this little battery holds up in real world conditions.
how do you disconnect the harness from the battery? Is it simple as sliding the green tab?
Would like to find out too
Love your videos, really! I'm just really curious: why does the harnessing from the plad 12v battery have to be so thick, if it's only to open contactors of the battery pack? Sounds strange :-/
It has to provide emergency power to hungry things like the electrohydraulic brake booster (iBooster) and power steering (EPAS). It also has to stabilize the 12v bus so it can absorb load dump spikes and transients, and provide high-current pulse power when there is a large inrush.
Probably this battery can be charged far below 0°C, without heating. Some Li-ion batteries can be recharged at -30°C (usually at reduced charge rate). Many manufactures sell such batteries.
Do you have measurements of the battery voltage during driving and charging? ScanMyTesla logfile maybe?
Tesla S with lead acid batteries keeps the 12V rail and battery at 13.7V in driving mode (exact value depends on temperature). Matches the float voltage of lead acid batteries. The charging at 14.4V (exact value depends on temperature) is done when the car is plugged in and periodically, if calculated SoC of the lead acid battery drops below ~80%.
Thanks for the video! Are we able to see the cells or are they epoxied in?
Take it to bits!
According to another comment, they're epoxied in.
Hello, thanks for the great video ! Would you have by any chance que dimensions of the 12 V battery please ? (outside packing, with closed cover, but without the fixations). In order to calculate the Wh/L. Many thanks in advance !
Thanks for this valuable information.
Subscribed.
Greetings from England.🙂👍
17:00 - Surely there is some sort of heater within the battery?
Nope. No connections. They are using the pack AS it's own heater!
@@Ingineerix smart!
@@jonathanviventi1380 Please at least watch the full video and part 2 before you comment: czcams.com/video/fJH1r1s8B6Y/video.html
great work! very clear explanation .
Love your videos. Very informative!
i'm curious, why can't the pack power everything? if the pack is used to recharge the 12v, couldn't it just do the job itself? i know it's high voltage, but isn't it stepped down to do the charging of the 12v?
The HV pack does power everything, just not when the car is "asleep". There are a lot of reasons for this, safety is one, and due to the overhead, you'd lose a lot more energy than you think keeping the sleep loads alive.
One reason is safety - in any crash/damage situation you want the pack contactors to disconnect to isolate the HV, needing an external supply to enable the HV is a good way to do that. Also, on a damaged car it's good if the hazard lights and comms can be kept working. Another issue is that it's hard to make a DC/DC converter that works over a very wide range of power - very low when teh car is mostly off, but also capable of driving heavy loads like power steering, fans etc.
I wonder how Tesla overcame the temperature problems. Lithium batteries hate temperatures below freezing, 0°c or 32°f. They are damaged when they are charged. That is why the lead acid battery is still being used.
I bet it has some sort of heater. They can't just forget about freezing temperatures lol.
I think they actively discharge it to warm it up. The housing is well insulated internally.
I think the frunk is climate controlled. They use it as additional thermal mass for the octovalve heat pump system.
@@kazedcat What do you mean? The frunk's couple litres of air is thermal mass for thr cooling system? :D nahh
@@Ingineerix heating by self discharge is ok for the main pack. But it's risky with 12V bat with the hv contractors open. But these have to work at stupid low freezing temperatures And be able to recharge. Since with freezing temperatures the battery is not just unable to charge, but also decreases the available capacity, not sure there is energy to be spared on self heating. I could very well be wrong, but i guess this is not the case. It would be way easier and safer to just use a different chemistry, like LTO that can handle extreme temperatures. After all LTO is used in marine batteries and electric trains exactly because it can handle crazy temperatures. Or maybe even something more exotic.
Great video thanks! Love your work!
Thanks for the video, would you know why Tesla and others don't use a section of the traction battery and step it down to 12V rather than have a separate either Lead acid or lithium battery?
The original Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid is the only car I know of that did this and even the full electric version still had a 12V lead acid.
Is it as a result of legislation of some sort maybe?
Thanks again.
Most EVs still run accessories, lights ecu dash off the 12v system. He said this in the video when he talked about suppliers and safety. Also if you dc-dc constantly you could easily allow an ignorant customer to drain the traction pack completely, and also would require the main contactors to stay on all the time. Very bad stuff all around.
It is required by law for safety lights, etc.
You are so helpful! Thanks!
Thats a chunky enclosure for the VC Batt
Thank You
Спасибо за видео!
I replaced the 12V battery with an aftermarket lithium iron phosphate battery that is higher capacity than the original battery. It was more expensive but much easier to install due to being much lighter. Getting to the 12V battery in my 2013 model S was a nightmare.
I do not recommend this. The BMS in these opens on full charge and then bus stability is lost, which could stress/damage devices on the 12v system.
Thanks!
Very informative! Thanks a lot
Awesome video sir!
I believe many aircraft run on 48 volts so there are plenty of lights and controls available for that voltage range, and there's been a lot of debate over using 48 volts for automobiles instead of 12.
I also have to wonder if 48v AC would make more sense too, using inverters, but only if the efficiency is high.
SAE has been trying to do this since the late 80's. You can't compare aircraft parts to automotive. Aviation is a much smaller industry, unit number wise.
Could you please do a teardown of mercedes 48volts battery!?
Send me one, and I will!
@@Ingineerix those things are really rare to find.
Awesome video, thanks
where is the jump start terminal located? Tesla should locate this at area which can be accessed without opening the frunk.
2nd thing, i wish you continue to dismantle the battery. it may have heating element inside.
It's under the access panel inside the frunk below the windshield. There is not a heater inside. The connections would be on the PCB.
@@Ingineerix thanks for sharing. appreciate your effort and good content.
CZcams algorithm brings me here. I'm wondering what is the correct way to tap the tesla 12v battery ex. for the aftermarket subwoofer?
Thank you for this video, I have a Plaid and I was gone for 3 months my main battery died and this caused the 12V to die as well, is there any way I can charge this battery and bring it back to life , Can I use a regular 12V battery charger to charge it ? Or should I replace it ?
Thanks for the great tear down! Do you know the max peak and max continuous discharge current of this battery? I’m doing some tinkering: adding “12v” power to my frunk, and want to know what limits I’m working with.
You absolutely cannot tap this battery for loads. You will fault the charge system.(VCBATT) If you want 12v, the only safe way is to draw it directly from the PCS.
Thanks Phil! That’s really good to know! I’m very interested to learn how I might draw from the PCS to do this. But I’m curious if this project would be above my head: is there a terminal on the PCS I can connect a lead to or are we talking about more complex electric engineering? Any resource you might be able to point me to? Many many thanks. (I’m looking to draw 10-20amps to charge an electric scooter in the frunk for 3 hours when it needs recharging).
After an accident how long will this keep the hazards going?
Probably at least a few hours.
Well the coolant pumps, car computer and MCU will still be running for a while uploading crash telemetry, and those run 10-20A. With only 6 Ah you would run through that in 15-20min. They can do some pretty fancy load shedding with all those fets, but at some point VCLEFT and VCRIGHT will have to shut down. Its probably pretty variable, but I wouldn't count on it for more than an hour. Should be an easy thing to test tho lol
@@1forrest1 is that really long enough, I suppose as long as Tesla is reporting the incident to emergency responders then its ok, sucks a bit if you're somewhere remote with no cell coverage.
@@1forrest1 Yeah, they definitely load shed as soon as they detect the PCS DC-DC is offline. I've already tested this a little. No need to run the coolant pumps if there is no HV. The APE (Autopilot ECU) can also be shut down as soon as they gather the crash data.
@@Ingineerix I thought it was interesting in Rich Rebuilds plaid video they have a HV shutdown and it already shows the 12V at 39% SOC. It's not easy to say when they started filming after the fault, but I wouldn't guess 6Ah is going to give you support for long. Particularly if they don't actually maintain the battery at 100%. What's the 12V system nominal voltage these days?
I wish you'd work on the video camera focus for these videos. It's always focused on your hands rather than the part.
Heat it up to remove the lid squirt some ipa in aswell job done
What's your idea on Ohmmu or other LFP battery replacement in the older models which were using lead acid battery. Would it cause any harms that we don't know. Do you recommend it?
I've covered this many times: Absolutely DO NOT! The Tesla AGM units are $85 and last 3-5 years depending on environment. The Lithium BMS will disconnect on full charge eliminating 12v bus stability, which could cause expensive damage. In addition, you will have alerts from the car because of this. Tesla can void your powertrain warranty as well.
@@Ingineerix I actually made my own LFP battery with the Bluetooth BMS bought from batteryhookup. I agreed with you about the Ohmmu overcharged price. After I finished the job, I didn’t have enough courage to put it in. I wondered if Ohmmu’s BMS may do something more than my generic BMS. Also worried about what you have pointed out in many of your videos. But I am curious if Tesla VC front would know the differences since the voltages should be quite similar to the lead acid, I just think that the system just won’t use my LFP to its full potential if the charging algorithm is still unchanged but I’m ok with that as long as my batttery cause no problems. So I’ll be weighing your opinions over my curiosity or keep an eye on any problems reported from people using 12V LFP on Tesla.
@@gollygui209 I'll do a video on this. The main reason is yes, the voltages are similar to PbSo4, but in this case, too low. Tesla does temp-compensated absorption phase, so this can easily hit over 15v, which is too high for 4 cells of LFP. This means the BMS will have no choice but to disconnect the LFP from the 12v bus, now the bus stability is lost, and this puts a lot of stress on all the 12v devices in the car, especially the multi-kilobuck PCS. The OEM AGM is only $85 from Tesla. Not worth risking it!
@@Ingineerix Hi Phil, I have another question. I accidentally dropped the micro SD card out of the slot next to the SIM slot on the MCU of my model 3 and I lost it inside while trying to put it back. Been driving 1 day with no problems so far. What do you recommend. I hope I don't have to remove the entire MCU just to fish for that micro SD card. Thanks.
@@gollygui209 FYI: Tesla can see in the alerts that your SD is missing. Obviously this voids the warranty on your ICE. Without the SD the car cannot send High-Resolution CAN logs to Tesla, as this is where they are stored. More importantly the SD card is used during updates, so without it you will will not be able to apply future updates. If you don't want to take apart the ICE, you could take your chances and just leave the old one inside and install a new high-quality high-endurance 8GB card in there. The Gateway will format it and everything will work as before.
For others reading this: There is nothing really useful on the SD card, please do not screw with it on your expensive car. The Linux part of the car computer does not access this, only the SPC5 gateway. If you want to "hack" on Tesla parts without risking your car/warranty, just go buy a used ICE off Ebay.
Hey Phil, what would be the charging voltage for this battery? Will it be beyond 16V?
Yes, it can be, but you cannot charge it externally. It will only charge once VCBATT allows it to over LIN. This means only once HV is present and all faults that would inhibit charging are cleared.
I hope they move on to lithium ion 48V batteries for the low voltage electronics soon
I believe they will stay with 12V because all Auto parts are 12V driven, bad but this are the available components.
I wonder if you switched your battery cables to this newer plug if you could use this new battery on an older Tesla.
No, definitely not, and you also don't want it, it's pretty terrible. The AGM replacements you'll need about every 5 years are only about $100 at Tesla, just buy them when the car tells you to. Do not try to retrofit a Lithium, you will probably need to replace your PCS if you do (thousands of $).
@@Ingineerix thanks for the quick reply!
What do you think would be the safest way to add say a thousand to 2,000 w power inverter in the frunk area. It looks like you could just run maybe a 6 gauge wire straight to where the jump start terminal is and then ground to the chassis somewhere else run that straight to your inverter mounted in the frunk. Any idea of how many amps it could handle. Do you think the car would need to be on or the battery would run down fairly quickly. My thought process is if the car was off that it would notice a drain and maybe shut something off. But say in a long-term power outage at the house you could run a couple small refrigerators and maybe recharge phones watch TV. I do this with my Prius currently just hooking jumper cables to the battery and running to a couple deep cycle batteries will keep the bank charged up that way I have a little more buffer for higher loads. The advantage with this is it could probably run for days and days because of the size of the Tesla battery in the small amount of load that I would need where the Prius would have to keep cycling on and off constantly. Plus anytime a ice vehicle is running if there was a failure in a cooling system or oiling system and you weren't there to shut it off it could probably start a fire or damage the engine. I have this new 12 volt battery. Would another better option would be to mount another battery under the front area 12 volt but I'm guessing that's probably not good as the resting voltage is only 14-4 and will always be pulling the other one down from 16v. It'll also be cool to have an inverter for camping and other things that could handle significantly more than inverter powered off the cigarette lighter in the car.
The only safe way to get this much current is directly from the PCS, and yes, the contactors would have to be closed. It's also stupidly inefficient; you'd be throwing away a lot of power as waste. (HVDC->12V->LVAC->HVDC->AC) The proper way is a HV inverter that starts at pack voltage. We currently offer a 7.6kW split-phase (120/240) HV inverter as an option with our vans. It's 97% efficient.
@@Ingineerix I appreciate the response. I'm not really sure what PCS is. I'm assuming that's inside something that's not easily accessible. I know it wouldn't be the most efficient obviously since it's being converted twice but getting to keep something running for a long time that doesn't require a lot of amperage. I tried searching but I haven't really seen any videos of anybody putting any power inverters on the new lithium batteries.
@@TimZ007 You will 100% cause a fault in the charging system if you tap power from the Lithium LV battery. The car will then stop charging the battery and your car will die and be undriveable. Tesla will see the alert history and then not cover that repair under warranty once the car is towed to them. If you are not competent enough to understand what I'm saying, then I'd advise you not to tamper with your expensive car and just buy a powerwall or a Jackery type portable power system.
I'm assuming there is no point in jumping starting a Tesla unless you are at a charging station or just need to tow the car, unlock it, etc.
I always thought the 12v lead acid battery on EVs were a bit old-fashioned? Could you not do the job with a buck converter and a stack of super capacitors?( being charged periodically by the car's main battery)
I've answered this now about 20 times: The HV pack does power everything, just not when the car is "asleep". There are a lot of reasons for this, safety is one, and due to the overhead, you'd lose a lot more energy than you think keeping the sleep loads alive.
you mentioned that 12 volt batteries failing in the older Model s's. Seems pretty common and they don't last very long.
But it's not the only car that has that problem.
Toyota Priuses use the 12 volt battery in the same way. Just to boot up the computers and to run the accessories. The DC to DC converter keeps it topped off.
They put in a relatively small battery not much bigger than a motorcycle battery would be. And they tend to not last very long. It's kind of odd to me because the DC to DC in the Prius can output at least 800 watts continuously and I think maximum output is 1000-1200 watts. So once the car power is up , essentially the car should be running off the power stored in the traction battery and converted to 14v DC through the DC to DC converter.
I would assume the same is true in a tesla. You would think that would make the 12 volt batteries last longer not shorter. But there must be using some charging strategy that 12 volt batteries don't really like. You mentioned with the Teslas that it waits till the battery discharges pretty far before it kicks the high voltage battery back into play to recharge it.
The Toyota Prius does not have that problem once the car power is up that 12 volt battery is seeing 14 volts right away. And the car goes to a deep sleep a lot more than a Tesla will.
And yet the batteries don't last very long. Also when the battery starts to fail you get all kinds of weird problems happening. Which you wouldn't think would be the case considering the DC to DC converter can more than compensate. But it doesn't.
Appreciate you disassembling the parts and showing us how everything works. Just recently found your channel and I definitely appreciate the detail you go into. Keep up the great work.
I've only investigated this on the Gen 2 Prius (2004-2009) and the 12v suffers the same fate for the same reason; Standby drain is deep-cycling them. Toyota's smart key system draws quite a bit.
@@Ingineerix
Interesting. Thanks for the tip.
I guess it is always waiting for a signal. The interior lights do come on as you approach the vehicle.
Simple fix on the Prius is simply the pull the big white connector off of the positive side of the 12 volt battery.
Only real consequence is losing your trip information and any settings you had for your radio and reverse beep.
They're the damn good car though. I've got a 2008 with 382,000 mi on it. Still on the original Hybrid battery ,engine and trans.
Still running on the original suspension and steering components too except for the struts themselves.
I'd very much like my next car to be fully Electric.
But Tesla's are a bit expensive and Volkswagen is not a brand a terribly trust when it comes to reliability.
I use it for Rideshare and a Chevy bolt is perfect for that. But of course that car has been having its own problems. And nowadays even used ones I've seen available aren't cheap enough...
So I'll wait a while.
I thought contactors only arced when they opened, not closed?
Keep in mind, Electricity travels at a good fraction of the speed of light, so a contactor closing is a VERY slow event. If you have a contactor close onto a high current, it will melt the first part of the contact that is made and "weld" itself. Without precharge in a modern EV, there can be easily tens of thousands of amps of inrush which will definitely destroy the contactor. Whereas opening a contactor, as long as it's not done under load, doesn't create any arc.
Would heating the parts up help to take it apart, enjoying your videos.
Thanks for the rip art so we can have a look! I wonder what the DC/DC charger voltage is set to? I would assume that it will be same as for a traditional lead acid battery @~14.2volts. This would charge the 4 cell li-ion cell to almost 50% which is an ideal voltage for long term li-ion battery storage/longevity. I doubt it would ever charge the battery to 100% (16.8volts) which is a bit to high for most components and not good for the lifetime of the li-ion. Also wonder at what point the computer allows the battery to discharge down to before engaging the DC/Dc? I would guess it will come on a lot more frequently (both due to the smaller capacity and not wanting to discharge the battery to much for longevity).
li-ion is not ideal for 12V systems. You want lifepo4. A fully charged lifepo4 battery will be at 14.4 and settle at 13.2
@@V8Power5300 yeh. Exactly. Lifepo4 have been the traditional go to to replace a 12 volt system because the voltages of a 4s setup aligns perfectly. Which is why it interesting Tesla have gone with li-ion. My guess is that because they will stay at about 50% charged most of the time they will last a long time. Another possibility might be tesla have designed their 12volt components to be able to cope with a slightly higher voltage (up to 16.8 volts)?
Excellent!
I've rescued (new) cells that drained to 0.4V. They still had a higher than ususal ESR afterwards but accepted a charge
By doing this you are risking fire though. Doing this can damage the separator, which may not result in a short until later when you least expect it.
@@Ingineerix Are you saying any cell that reached below 2.8V is basically trash because of a fire hazard?
@@Flowxing The actual number depends on the cell, but there have been numerous fires which caused extensive damage to property because of this exact issue. Search the web for "Gruber Motors Fire" or "EVTV fire" so see some examples. Gruber motors actually had TWO fires that totally destroyed their facility, once in 2017, then again in 2021! Any professional battery engineer will have cells recycled if they go below the critical charge level. Putting them back in the hands of a customer after an event like this is pretty dangerous. I've personally had LiPos do this, which is why I use a fireproof bag to charge them in now.
@9:20 On the lid it says 1P4S...
It does. He addressed this in the "part 2" video.
: czcams.com/video/fJH1r1s8B6Y/video.html
Great video as always. In Europe it is 50 Hz
Yes, I mentioned that. 50hz = 100 times per second zero crossing.
This confuses me, I've been tought that the save to touch voltage (sichere Berührungsspannung) is 100V for DC and 50V for AC because the alternating current messes with your heart's frequency.
VDE 0100-410
Keep in mind, AC voltage is expressed in the RMS equivalent to DC, but has much higher peak-to-peak values. So 240 volts AC is actually around 340 volts peak-to-peak. This is why 240VAC requires 600V class insulation. (300V class is exceeded) The body is strange, and is non-linear, and also depends greatly on humidity, how dry your skin is, etc. But from experience I can tell you DC hurts WAY worse than AC at the same voltage and is also much harder to let go of.
Did you notice the sticker says "1P_4S" on it?
Yes, check out my part 2: czcams.com/video/fJH1r1s8B6Y/video.html
Why do they not use a 12v step down voltage regulator from the main battery pack?
The HV pack does power everything through a DC-DC in the PCS (Power Conversion System), just not when the car is "asleep". There are a lot of reasons for this, safety is one, and due to the overhead, you'd lose a lot more energy than you think keeping the sleep loads alive
I have put a 12V contacts on my 12V battery. And everytime I don't drive my MS 70D I put it on 12V battery charger. No more vampire drain and it will keep the 12V battery longer alive.
LTO cells? Anything indicate it is made by a outside supplier ?
WOW SO NICE VIDEO THX A LOT