The New Model F Keyboard
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- čas přidán 7. 03. 2021
- This is not an in-depth review, more of a first impressions just giving my thoughts on the new Model F77 keyboard from modelfkeyboards.com / Model F Labs. It finally showed up after ordering it several years ago, so I was beyond excited to try out its fresh capacitive buckling springs! While it may not be ideal for my main work PC setup, it's a fantastic achievement and I'm happy it exists regardless.
To those saying "just download QMK source and edit the code to compile your own firmware" are missing my point. Yes, I know that's possible. But I think a premium keyboard costing $355+ should have a little better experience than that.
And even then, at the moment you still need to sign up to an external forum and PM a user there to request beta access to the firmware so you can edit it. Yes, it's all entirely doable. No, I'm still not thrilled with it.
As for the Windows key: Yep, there are _optional shortcuts_ that it enables that make having a Windows key a nice bonus!
But does one truly _need_ a Windows key? That's what I meant by saying "no one needs it," heh. Personally I can easily go without it on the left-hand side of the board since there are no major system functions (that I know of anyway) that use the Windows key exclusively. And any shortcut it provides can frequently be performed using other key combos or using the mouse.
The Fn key and the numbered function keys though? Now those I use far more often for my work every day, so my priority goes to them in terms of their placement on this particular keyboard. For my workflow, WinKey is an _optional extra_ here, so I'd rather remap it to another location on the board so I can better make use of the Fn key.
@@LGRBlerbs Win-Shft-S is the only thing i use it for all day other than opening the start menu
@@LGRBlerbs You should try using AutoHotkey to reassign your keys. I had to use it on my Ducky keyboard as the macros weren't working on it
@@adamlowther8034 I actually did try that and it wasn't able to recognize the Model F's Fn key.
Even if it worked I wouldn't want to use it that way, since that'd mean the software needs to be running every time I use the keyboard, and then I'd have to install and configure it again on any other computer I plug it in into. Not something any purchaser of this board should have to do, especially since the firmware allows internal remapping.
@@LGRBlerbs I completely understand. I had the same issue with the Fn key but luckily enough my keyboard has physical switches on the underside.
Oh wow, I'm a circa 1991 Model M user and I never realized that I could use CTRL+Escape to trigger the WinKey... thanks!
Oh dang, that was one of the first things I learned when upgrading to Windows 95!
Glad you're finally in on the fun 😁
Also, Shift+F10 brings up the context menu when something is selected. It's good when a two-button mouse isn't available.
and thats the true value of these retro computing videos - learning productivity tips that we missed along the way
@@mik4k6 or when the menu key itself isn't available...
I changed the caps-lock key to the win key, as I never use caps-lock
I remembered being intrigued by this, but the backing price was a bit of a turnoff. That and the fact it's a a tenkeyless board. When LGR said "five years ago or something", I wasn't thinking it was that long ago until he mentioned the year…
What was the buy in price for one?
5 years ago? So, 2019?
@@yeetleslaw8529 1989
I prefer tenkeyless boards (since my desk space is small), but the lack of function keys is a dealbreaker to me.
Very low production (I think they're made to order), HEAVY, the case is diecast metal and to my knowledge no one else are making keyboards this way... yeah it's going to be quite pricey.
They were probably like "Holy crap, that's LGR. Send him the first one!!!"
No probably, they did! The comment pinned I believe
@Corporeal Undead I have one, and love it. I have another on order and might pick up at least 2 or 3 more. I also have an original IBM F107 (the big brother of the F77 and F62 boards reproduced in this project) and wish he would have recreated that too because their prices are skyrocketing now.
Very few clicky switches, old and new, compare at all to the mighty capacitive buckling spring, and the cases alone on these are wonderful. Most of the weight comes from the thick zinc case alone.
"Starting at $355".
Fun fact kids.. if, back in the day, you hit your brother around the back of the head with the IBM models... they hurt!
If you can remember being hit in the head by a model M keyboard, you weren't hit in the head by a model M keyboard
Can kinda confirm. I unfortunately have first hand experience of having a model M land on my bare foot...
@@DaveF. 🤣🤣🤣
The only other keyboard as strong heavy as Model M i've used is obscure Logitech S510. That had a metal back plate and was quite a thin package. It was like a big blade, could use it as weapon.
I have a Model M at my front door instead of a baseball bat.
Plausible deniability when the Police investigate a murdered intruder at your home. "I didn't know this was deadly, I code with it."
Maybe they saw who was ordering it and they gave you the first S/N cause they knew it was the best advertising they would ever get!
That worked pretty well, didn't it?
It’s weird to see lgr use modern tech like his iPad 😂
For that amount of money, should've came with VIA compatible firmware from the start. And when VIA firmware does come out, hopefully someone will then import that into Vial.
Agreed, especially when even entry level customs come with via support and this is about as custom as it gets. At least porting a board over to via isn’t all that difficult, especially if a qmk firmware already exists. Mechmerlin has a good video explaining the process step by step, it took me an afternoon to figure it all out so lgr could probably get it all working in around 45 minutes.
I've set up my F77 to work with VIA. There are some caveats though. VIA relies on holding down a key during the keyboard boot process to trigger an EEPROM wipe in case the EEPROM gets borked. This doesn't work on the F77 because the key calibration routine runs at boot, and holding a key down results in that key not registering, so you can't use that process to rescue yourself from a borked EEPROM. There are some other processes you can use, but they are non obvious (e.g. just flashing a different QMK firmware on to the board does not clear the portion of the EEPROM used by VIA). Making the F77 truly compatible with VIA has some speedbumps.
You're not paying for the firmware. You're paying for the build quality. This keyboard will last 30+ years, easily. I've got an original F107 from 1987. It works perfectly. Get that through your heads.
I just use the original xwhatsit firmware, it actually let's you tune everything and is probably best for people who can understand electronics a fair bit. Remember this board needs to calibrate the capacitance on boot, you can actually tune the sensitivity of the keys, but it's easy to mess up and end up with a board that double types etc. At stage I might go to qmk, but I'd miss the BIOS like aspect of the original firmware.
@@ChileVuela Yeah, hence why it’s such a disappointment that the flawed firmware holds it back. Get that through your head.
Nice of the captions to confuse the squeaking of the opening box as "applause"
Yeah, modern software expects modern keyboard layouts (sometimes specifically the US layout). We need the modern layout with the old build quality.
I had no idea the Control+Escape was an alternative Windows key... Could have used that info 25 years ago! ;)
Honestly I'm surprised more people didn't stumble into that by accident like myself.
It's not an alternative Windows key, sadly. It is specifically a start menu key. Just opens said start menu. Useful for that if you don't have an actual Windows key, but it can't be used for Windows key shortcut combinations.
I believe this originates from OS/2 and was kept in windows as a legacy thing.
@@Temunic that is right! I am with model M and can not use their windows key combinations, I even do not know them at all :)
And control+shift +escape will bring up task manger ! No idea when they added thst functionality tho.
12:28: "Nobody needs a Windows key" whoa whoa whoa... You don't [WIN][E] or [WIN][R] or [WIN][L] or [WIN][D]? whaaaaaaaaaaaaat
I'm not saying that I don't.
I'm saying that I don't _need_ to. It's a bonus, not a necessity for me.
@@LGRBlerbs Win+V has become pretty essential to my workflow. Win+Period is less essential, but still handy.
I guess I could rebind em with a third-party program, but meh.
Yeah, I guess put me in the "keep the Windows key" boat.
@@mikeey6804 I mean, the Model F _still has_ a Windows key... I'm not advocating for removing it, all I said is I want it in another location on the board since I use it less!
@@LGRBlerbs Oh thank goodness, I guess I can stop hovering over the unsubscribe and thumbs down buttons now lol j/k
@@LGRBlerbs On Linux it's referred as MOD or Super and it's very essential especially on Window Manager environments. I believe it comes down to the Model F design limitations by missing such essential keys after all. It makes it a laptop keyboard experience that will never be able to replace your main keyboard.
I thought this was Chyrosran22 before I opened the video. That thumbnail :P
Someone may have said this already, but the holes on the back of the keyboard that you placed the rear cork feet over are actually where you can screw in rubber feet to give you a greater typing angle. Not the same as fold out feet of course, but it's something. The feet in question are available from the site, and the part numbers for them are also listed if you want to buy them elsewhere.
Edit: also, the newer firmware is QMK. It should have the Model F firmware merged into the main build eventually, but the firmware creators are waiting on doing that until they've worked out any remaining kinks if memory serves. They swapped to QMK from XWhatsit's original firmware part way through, as the old firmware needed to be manually calibrated for every keyboard and even after that was done had ghost presses when the weather changed. The QMK firmware auto-calibrates on the fly, so all the users who tested it found it more reliable. Once the QMK firmware is merged into the main QMK branch, new users will no longer need the invite to make a new layout. And there are offline editing tools for the main branch, though the online configurator is much easier to use.
Still waiting on mine. A few years ago, I jumped on this, and I wanted the keycaps as well. Happy to see this review here!
Thanks for being a part of this, Clint.
My Industrial Gray Model M and Industrial Gray F77 (just like yours) actually color match really well, just the texture is different (one's paint, one's cast into the plastic).
Typing this on my Model F77, I've had it for about a year because I shipped before my keys were done (have plenty of extras). It's been a long journey, but this thing is an absolute unit.
I am using the "Hudson HiFi Platinum Silicone Hemisphere Bumper, Non - Skid Isolation Feet with Adhesive - 20 Duro, 2" Hemisphere" as rear feet, to give me the lift angle equivalent to my Model F AT with the feet flipped up. You might already have something like that in your audio supplies.
Well it sounds like they got the hardware part down correctly, so likely all these issues will be resolved in time. Glad to hear this tech will live on.
I ordered one back in December 2019, and this video is only getting me more excited to get it soon.
Oh!! The dot-matrix packing list is such a nice touch, hahaha. Evidence toward the company's attention to detail. Very nice!
As someone who works in an office, I use the super key + others keys all the time. I would say Win + R and Win + L are the most common. So it gets used a lot in my daily life. There's lots of neat windows shortcut hidden there.
I'm going to change your life with the only windows feature I love. Win+v
I'm always amazed how your "blerbs" are 18 minutes long and Adrian's Digital Basement's "mini mail calls" can take an hour and a half.
You're certainly very passionate about keyboards. I applaud that, even if I can't understand it. Great vid!
We appreciate your honesty.
I gotta get my model F from a PC XT back into my rotation. A lot of the switches are kinda broken, tho.
Time for a restoration project?
sometimes you just have to reset the spring properly.
“It’s ass kicking time” got to love it!
Awesome! can't wait to get mine with the key caps. Hopefully it'll be soon.
I placed my order in May of 2017. Got mine without the keycaps last year and used it for a few months with grey keycaps from a loaner 103 key Unicomp. I finally got the keycaps a few weeks ago. Some issues with the Left Shift and Enter key. Still working out those kinks but the keyboard itself has been fabulous and takes me back to my youth. It was worth the very long wait!
I just got my "New model M" it feels amazing to me.
13:30 I lol'd when the default set was GMK Vaporwave.
-typed on GMK Vaporwave
After contemplating for years, I finally pulled the trigger on this, ordered mine in beige with split shift and backspace. The price is intimidating for sure, but I can see that it was more then worth it (for me personally). Hopefully it doesn't take me quite as long of a wait, but I'm jut glad I got my foot in the door last minute. Thanks for giving that final push Clint.
Looking forward to receiving mine.
The New Model M is a really significant improvement over earlier Unicomps. It's worth checking out.
The new model M still (sometimes) has blemishes on the back of the case where the posts and support structures are located on the inside of the shell but some original IBM made model m's have that too. My 1988 model M has similar blemishes on the back but it may have been less common with the old PVC cases than with the polycarbonate / ABS blend Unicomp uses. Regardless if it was also present on original Model Ms then it doesn't bother me much.
I have one manufactured in 2020 and I absolutely love it. I have 2 original model M's from 1989 and 1998, as well as a Model F and yet my 2020 is my fav. It's USB and I got one with the extra windows and context keys as well. No other keyboard comes close to how much I love that keyboard.
Can confirm, I just got mine a few months ago along with the New Model F. The Unicomp New Model M is an amazing value. Works perfect out of the box with no tinkering, amazing feel, sound. I'd say the best ~$100 I've ever spent on a keyboard. The New Model F by comparison feels maybe 10% better, but that's after 4-5x the cost, lots of tinkering, and I'm still working on fixing buzzing keys, a finnicky space bar, key bouncing issues, and little annoyances. In some ways, that makes me regret the purchase and kinda wished I'd just got a 2nd Unicomp for my other computer. I could get it for all my computers from here on out and be perfectly satisfied. The Model F is still an intriguing hobby project, but also a time-sink and full of headaches. If you want a great buckling spring keyboard that just works flawlessly out of the box, you can't be the new Unicomp Model M.
where can you buy a new model M ?
@@javaguy5783 From Unicomp (just look them up). They're made of ex IBM employees who bought the rights to the Model M production line.
Next Blerb: the new IBM mouse from 1980s
New old stock IBM System/360.
I would probably buy a "classic"-style USB mouse, bonus points if it comes with a mouse pad
@@shadowflash705 Good luck with that! :D
I've never been a big keyboard-fan or anything but oh wow does this one ever look perfectly satisfying in every way
That is almost the exact setup I ordered in January, except with the front-printed function keys. The lack of function keys is what held me back for a long time. Good tip on remapping that CTRL key. It’s one of the first things I’ll do. When I get it. Maybe this year.
Love the design! It seems like a really nice and well-executed product, and while it carries the Model F name, it also has its own unique identity. I do agree with Clint on the firmware issues though. I don't exactly see why it has to be such a mess to access the firmware, but I do hope that access improves with time. Either way, this is exciting and a really cool and impressive product! The cost is a bit steep, but it's definitely a labor of love!
I think this video lacks some backstory and explanation as to why this keyboard is the way it is... These keyboards are modern reproductions of just two of the four models of IBM 4704 keyboards. They were originally produced for banking terminals and feature solid zinc cases. The capacitive buckling spring switches used are widely regarded to be some of the best ever produced in terms of feel, with a crisp actuation point and very smooth action. Some of the earliest examples have been in continuous operation since 1983. Yes.. almost 40 years of use and still going strong. If it does ever break, there are very few things that can not be fixed at home by anyone with a set of screwdrivers. This is the reason why people will pay $355+ for one of these, despite some inconveniences as to the layout.
There were three other models in this line, one with 50 keys and ortholinear layout (a giant macropad), a 62 key qwerty layout (lacking the nav-block), and the 107 key layout, which features 10 function keys on the left and dedicated numpad. Of the four models of 4704, the 50 key layout is the rarest, followed by this layout, the 62 key layout, and the 107 key layout is the most common. On the open market today, 107 key models fetch upwards of $800. The original 77 key model, of which only a handful are known to exist, would probably sell for thousands of dollars.
I own one of the 107 key models and one of the reproduction 77 key model. The key feel and sound is spot on with the new models. When purchasing the keyboard, you can opt for different layouts -- one of which features slightly smaller shift keys that allow the use of more keys, such as a dedicated Windows key or '~' key. Even after purchase, if you find yourself not liking the layout you chose, you can reconfigure the keyboard yourself (such as I have done).
tl:dr; If you purchase one of these, you're not buying it for a couple years of use.. you're buying it to pass down to your grandkids.
Exactly, thank you. I'm a bit disappointed this was just a blerb video, because it's missing all this context and people in the comments are clearly super confused.
This needed to be said, but maybe Clint specifically made a Blerb about it because of its current firmware status, etc, and tends to swing back around later for a deeper dive.
A friend of mine showed me a Model F a while ago and I just remember being amazed that this 30 year old keyboard felt so damn good.
Just noticed this video (somehow I was not subscribed to this channel, only your main one) - glad to see your impressions on this as I was definitely considering one of these at the time and only didn't pull the trigger because of price. I think I'd probably have most of the same concerns as you, and I honestly didn't even notice the lack of function keys until you pointed it out! I also totally forgot the AT Model F existed; I really need to get one of those someday, as they seem to be the closest thing to a Model F holy grail that combines that buttery typing feel with a reasonable layout. Too bad they're close to being unicorns on the used market (I don't think many of them were made before the Model M took over).
I mean it's super neat but imagine if any company back in those days said "give us the money and in 5 years you might get a product that matters now"
If Clint is saying something looks like an IBM box from back then, I believe him.
Back in the 70s, my Dad would sometimes take me to work with him and they had a teletype machine of some sort. This video made me think of that. I don't remember it all that clearly but I do remember that it was Hefty with a capital HEFT.
I think they also had something like these at their terminals. It was a parts department at a car dealership and they had quite a lot of really heavy computing equipment for the catalogue.
Oh, that and the green and white tractor-feed printer paper convinced me that these folks really get it. It's just a shame it didn't quite work for Clint's particular needs.
Good video as always. :)
Flashing your first QMK firmware can be challenging, indeed. But there are in fact neat offline solutions! Usually they are more flexible too! Hang in there, Clint!
waiting that long and getting shipped a bunch of disappointment really sucks. i use an original model m that was refurbished by a guy online, and converted internally to output usb c, so i know the struggles of finding the perfect old school feel.
I would say something about the price, but I just looked to my right and saw the Amiga 500 with ACA500+ and a ACA1221LC in a 3D printed case attached.
I first saw this keyboard in your video on loading PC programs from real to real tape, I really like it. It kind of reminds me of a TRS-80.
You can remap all the keys, I map the escape as function, then function tab for escape. Then you have all the function keys one handed easily. Also use split shift for second function key.
Program all your special functions as second layer so you can just use two key combos.
For extra elevation, use felt furniture pads on the rear, also makes it easier to slide on the desk by just lifting the front.
I love (the idea of) this layout. I’ve been using a 65% keyboard for a few weeks and I don’t miss the function keys at all, but a num pad would be really nice.
The _new_ Unicomp New Model M is _really_ good. I've seen reviews of the older ones but the one I have (February 2021) has none of those issues and it feels and sounds _amazing._ Would 100% recommend it for someone who wants a classic/retro style keyboard. Tastes great with a Kensington Expert Mouse trackball 🖥️🖲️
I'd like to get a newly made Model F but this ain't quite it. I too need those function keys!
I just got a new Unicomp New Model manufactured November 2021. I second everything you are saying, I am in love with this quality board!
Weird. I've had a Unicomp since 2009 and love it. Maybe they improved it further. I'd get the F model if it was full size.
I hope so, I own 3 IBM Model-M's and 2 (older) Unicomp's. The unicomps look the same, but the feel, sound, flex, everything is much worse.
The new Model M still has the issue with some of them having blemishes on the back of the shell where structures are located on the inside. However I have seen this on original model Ms as well, my 1988 model M has long straight blemishes on the back where the ribs are located inside the shell. Maybe it was less common with the old PVC shells than with Unicomp's polycarbonate / ABS blend plastic but it was definitely present on some of them.
Oh man, I too ordered one like 5 years ago (F77 with aluminum case)! I still need to finish setting mine up actually, but it looks amazing. I've never had a Model F before, just a few IBM and Unicomp Model M models (which I love), and as good as they are I was even more excited to finally try a Model F. Admittedly I'm not as sure about the F77 layout vs the Model M (I wish there was one with Model F keys but Model M layout), but I'm willing to give it a shot for the Model F keys!
I hope for a modern layout but with that buckling springs. That would be awesome.
Sure those vintage styles is nice but, hey.. we want best of both worlds!
I think the world needs several hours of typing sounds on that thing.
Why this is not available as a regular full-size keyboard is beyond me.
Yep. Big miss.
i mean no model f was ever made as a regular full size. It would be cool but it might be missing the point of this project
Yeah, these were meant to be faithful reproductions of exceedingly rare Model F variants (that were only ever meant to be used with specific banking terminals) made to exact standards to the point that Ellipse literally spent years just trying to get a factory to meet IBM's original quality control standards for dye sumblimation of the legends on the keycaps.
Regardless, this isn't like just tossing together some MX PCB design and crapping them out en masse. Because it is capacitive buckling spring, the plate assembly and PCB are curved (so that every cap can be the exact same shape, and can actually be swapped between rows on a whim), there are also no physical switch contacts at all.
I would like a more ... mass market iteration as well, I doubt it is likely to ever happen, but these boards are a limited-time run, so I guess that comes down to whether or not Ellipse even ends up making any money on these to invest in such pipe dreams.
Cool that you got the first one!
I'm so excited to get mine.... Sometime... Really not sure when.
But boy am I excited
A 4kg keyboard. And that'd be why it costs $350. :) Frustrating though that for something that costs so much and has been in development for so long, it still almost seems like an early access product.
Also "Control F This." *snicker*
You think they could do cost reduced plastic models sometime? I could see why they would, but also why they wouldn't. If people keep buying the metal ones for $350, then they'll keep making them. They'd have no incentive to make a less expensive version.
These things are basically being made because a bunch of engineers loved the original and wanted a replica. Seems about on par for anything run by greybeards. "If you can't figure it out why are you even here" sort of thing.
@@Dreams_Of_Lavender People want these because they're exact reproductions of very rare and desirable F variants designed specifically for the IBM 4704 display terminal, which was only used for niche banking applications. They specifically want the thick solid zinc cases and form factor/layout.
If Ellipse dropped these and spent another few years designing a simplified/cheapened version and sold it for a little less, almost all of the people who would care would ask for the more expensive version back.
You should know that he sells the cases on their own for only $100. They're not the most expensive component of a Model F keyboard. The PCB and plate assembly (consisting of both a barrel plate and backplate are all curved so that the caps can all be the same shape regardless of row, and the PCB is capacitive ... sort of like Topre, and Topre boards aren't cheap either.
Then there's the fact that original F122s have been going for $600+ on Ebay, and F ATs have been going for at least $300-400, both of which come in plastic cases with less-than modern layouts, the new production F77 actually starts looking like a good deal by comparison. Now think about the fact that F122 and F AT are amongst the most common and affordable F variant boards, only the F XT sells for less. Good luck finding even the most common of the 4704 family for less than $800+ (F107) these days.
Technically I think this is an early access run. There's supposed to be a second run later, but it will be even more expensive iirc due to cost increases.
I'd have ordered one of those instantly if it was available in a standard 100% layout, the lack of an F key row as you mentioned is just too much of a turn off. For now I'm sticking with my Unicomp, their more recent keyboards are in my experience pretty damn good and I love typing on mine.
my thoughts exactly. I need my f keys...
@Miivious if you mean to ask what a 100% keyboard is, it's the typical layout you see on most regular non-enthusiast keyboards that has the full F-key row, numpad and arrow and navigation keys.
If yuu mean which one I have, when I wrote that comment I was using a Unicomp "Ultra Classic" keyboard, but since then I picked up a Keychron Q6.
Glad to see things like this being made -- I use a 1987 Model M in KVM with all my computers, including my Macs -- for which the lack of a Windows key is frustrating because it would function as Command on Macs -- very important for Mac keyboard shortcuts. (Yes, I can remap, but lose my Caps Lock). I'd also want something that has a full numpad. It's a shame the Unicomp models aren't better (unless they have improved). I've considered buying one to try.
Very nice review, thank you :)
$355+; documentation is garbage
Yup, that figures.
i'm mostly an ALPS guy but daaayum i'm salivating all over my desk right now..
As of this writing, April 20th, 2023, you can get one with a standard 104 key ANSI, or tenkeyless layout. They started offering them earlier this month.
I had a "Kishsaver" (55-key model F; banking industry) at one point but alas ergonomic boards are now a must for me.
"Who needs a Windows key"
That's my most used non-alphanumeric key :(
what do you use it for?
@@Slash0mega shortcuts
Agreed! Use it for app switching, but mostly for all kind of shortcuts like "screenshot", or just to quickly start a program by hitting "windows" plus a few letters for the name of the program, then "Enter".
A very useful non-alphanumeric key
@@jeremiefaucher-goulet3365 nerd
@@llab3903 Yes I am, proudly so. I can't sacrifice productivity for a nicer feeling keyboard.
$50-$100 for a full-size layout, and I'd buy one, for sure.
Considering I pay ~$200 for my Filcos, I'd gladly pay as much for a buckling spring 104 key layout.
For $100 you can't even get a mechanical keyboard with MX-clones and normal layout nowadays. At that price you're paying for 17 RGB animation modes of a gaming product, and sometimes don't even get NKRO.
And you're not getting a standard 104 key layout. First they took away the left Wit's just for buckling spring fetishists or successful yoindows key for some media combos (as a feature), then they "learned" and took the right one instead (so you can't lock the screen one-handed anymore), then half the keyboards switched from media keys being Fn+F4 to actual function keys being under Alt+Fn+notF4. Who is this crap for, really? OK, rand over.
Back to the topic, aiming at $100 makes no sense in current market, even if it wasn't a super niche product. A price of $150 (making it $200 with customs and VAT) would be totally justified, I'd order one right now. For $200+import cost, I'd hesitate, maybe wait until someone sells theirs for cheaper. At $350 (even in plastic case!), I'm not even sure what market is it aimed at. It shouldn't become very collectible, so the only way to afford that is to be a successful youtuber like Clint, you can play with super expensive toy like this for a week, make a Blerb and recuperate the cost, hopefully :)
I believe the materials, tooling, and build quality alone mean that $50-100 is an entirely unfeasible price.
$249 would be getting to my "ideal" for something like this, but even that's pushing it from what I gather about the process involved making them!
@@LGRBlerbs If they can't scale the production up then it probably makes sense to put this outrageous price on them. But if they could, I don't see why the version in a plastic boxy case would be more expensive to produce than a Filco.
Most expensive part were the molds. They already have them (unless they're making every switch and key cap in some prototyping clay :)), now it's just a matter of making a PCB (other youtubers tell me I can get those for a few bucks) and putting in a case. Again: I'm talking plastic case, not this metal awesomeness (is it a pressed sheet with some coating or actually sintered steel?)
And hey, since you had to fix two keys out of the box anyways, it could totally come as an entry level kit (switches wave soldered to the board, but you put springs and supports and caps yourself). I wouldn't mind if I could get one for $150 :)
I'll also be interested to try my Unicomp SSK when it ships this month. Early beta testers are saying it's more rigid than the usual Unicomp fare.
I've been using a 122-key IBM Model M Terminal keyboard from 1987 as my daily driver for the last 10ish years thanks to Soarer's Keyboard Converter which runs on Teensy 2.0 (about $16). The keys are pretty easy to map with a simple text file that gets injected into the firmware file that you flash. The map file can even get more complicated than a 1:1 map if you want; for example, I've got my F13 and F14 keys set to toggle the keyboard between Qwerty and Dvorak modes. I love this keyboard and Soarer's Converter works perfectly for everything I'm doing, even gaming.
The lack of the numpad and function keys is a deal breaker to me, moreso at that price.
a) you can order it with a numpad, it's even mentioned in the video
b) you can get a function layout that's more usable
c) this thing is cheaper then when the model f launched in 1981, but I do get why that price is discouraging
Maybe it's me, but in the video this Model F actually sounds like what a new IBM keyboard did back when they were new.
They are very close in sound to the original 4704 keyboards. The space bar sounds a bit more 'hollow' is the major difference. I've got an original F107 and one of these F77 reproductions.
Appreciate this. I've been on the Model F mailing list for years now, sometimes feeling curious enough to add it to my cart before scaring myself off with the cost. It'd be cool to see your impressions of the TEX Shinobi too, a fairly recent mechanical inspired by the 7 row SK-8855 USB ThinkPad keyboard.
I use both keyboards. Both are great, but very, very different. Anything specific you'd like to know?
Thankfully, I sorted through the nightmare of learning to program with QMK on my last build. It is a convoluted task, but at least it doesn't hurt my fingers like pulling 96 switches because I didn't properly lube my stabilizers.
the lack of function keys make me really sad..
right? how is this usable without them? and the huge borders...
They should have made a model much more closer to the actualy model F
@@iivarimokelainen Been using mine since last June. Fn+number gives you the Function key. Not too disimilar to many laptop keyboards.
@P Mosh Loudly :-)
@@ChileVuela I'm a software developer, so I need hotkeys like shift+f keys, upgrading all f keystrokes to two keys, and all two key strokes to three keys would be a nightmare. I'll stay with a cheap tenkeyless mx blue keyboard
Num lcok without a numeric keypad? What is the point of that?
The right part of the keyboard can be switched between nav cluster and different numpad layouts.
With it at least using QMK I hope it can at some point get ported to Via for on the fly layout editing. Via is such a game changer for custom keyboards that flashing QMK firmware files seems so ancient.
I like living vicariously through CZcamsr's purchases
Huh... A full sized 101 key version of that would be nice... :)
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting..."
Sorry man.
HaHaHa I recognize that Star Trek Quote! Nice play on the words... :-)
LLAP
Hey Clint! We'd love to see a tour of your collection!
I didn't wind up buying one of these, but did buy an F122 battle cruiser and ordered all new springs from the Brand New Model F site to refurbish it. It feels just like a brand new keyboard with the new springs, and they only cost 50 cents each at the time I got them a few years ago (very early in the project.) Plus it has something very close to a modern layout, which is easily mappable with a Soarer's Converter!
I’d 110% buy one if they offer(ed) one with the Model M layout (and a few media keys).
Still a absolutely fantastic keyboard don’t get me wrong :)
The future is now, old man! Starting at the beginning of April 2023, they're offering Model F keyboards with a standard ANSI and tenkeyless layout option. They also come in a Classic Model M style case (except it's cast aluminum) or a slimmer design.
Keyboard companies: "lets remove all the function keys nobody uses those"
Every software program: "are you sure about that"
Yeah, damn shame. Lovely keyboard but jesus that is not as ready for the modern world as they claim. Waste of money.
new model f122 when
@@PJBonoVox What did they claim in this regard? These are exact reproductions of the IBM F62 and F77 keyboards, which are themselves basically hacked down from the IBM F107. In those days, the F keys were in their own block to the left of the alphanumeric cluster. If you chop the F keys and numpad off of the F107, you have an F77. If you chop the nav cluster and arrow keys off of the F77 you have the F62.
These were originally terminal keyboards all meant to be used with very specific banking terminals running very specific software.
QMK for these boards is in beta, otherwise changing the mapping with QMK flashed to the controller would be easier. I, for one, think Ellipse should have stuck with the original xwhatsit firmware until QMK was ready for a general release. xwhatsit has a dead simple mapping utility that literally takes seconds to configure the board however you like.
They're not removed. They are on a layer. Which makes them more accessible to use since you doesn't have to move your whole hand just to press them. Hence why 60%, HHKB layout and stuff are so popular among developers.
@@user-lv6rn9cf8m yeah im so confused, on the store page it even shows the mapping. the F keys are a fn layer on the numbers. right ctrl is a FN key. How did everyone get this impession that you cant use f keys?
That sounds really good!
Wow, finally. Time to find out whether or not these are good. Maybe capacitive buckling springs will come back now.
The lack of actual function key row is a deal killer for me. :-/
You can actually configure the firmware offline, but you have to get into the whole setting up a build environment, learning to configure you're keymap in c, compile the firmware and flash it to your keyboard (I use QMK a lot, it's not actually that bad). The only way that I'm aware of to get a GUI keymap configurator would be to port the QMK configuration to VIA and the keyboard will have an offline GUI configurator.
Yeah, not the kind of experience I'd expect for something approaching $400. And even then you still have to sign up to a forum and PM someone to request beta access!
I'd love one of these but with a modern layout with numpad.
QMK firmware is a pretty common thing amoun folks who build their own mechanical keyboards. You can program and adjust it manually if you want to but that can be tedious and time consuming so the online tools of it for sure are very helpful.
I've considered getting one of the Model M remakes. I loved my IBM Model M back in the day. I was so sad that it was effectively obsoleted with Windows 95, since it didn't have a Windows key. I need to look at the reviews for the Unicomp M. Price is relatively reasonable. Update: Oh look, you have a video on the Unicomp M.
People have been gushing about the Mini M (a modern SSK reproduction, the first Unicomp has ever done) and the New Model M. If I remember right, Clint's is at least a few years old. Unicomp had been improving quality control even as far back as then, but I don't think they had retooled anything yet. The New Model M and Mini M are being manufactured on all new tooling, said by some to nearly match original/early IBM quality.
There are differences regardless, Unicomp's rubber mat is entirely different, now being made of modern silicone.
I'm not a big fan of the Model M to begin with, so I haven't felt any Unicomps at all myself.
I do use a lot of ancient boards, in which case I use a USB foot pedal under my desk that I have mapped to the Windows key.
@@xb0xisbetter Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll investigate the M's a bit more. The USB pedal for the Windows Key is a cool idea.
I'm typing on one right now. It's an improvement over any membrane (even a Model M membrane - got one of those too) keyboard, but it feels very cheap compared to original IBM Model M's. The keys are quite loose, the key click has a hollow, resonant sound, the case plastic flexes way too much if you press on it and the plastic feet look like they're gonna break. But still, it's pretty good for typing and it feels almost the same as my 90's Lexmark Model M.
@@cristiannicolae6309 Is it a Mini M, a New Model M, or an older/unretooled variant?
@@xb0xisbetter It's a Classic 101 Model M (UNI041A) bought last year in August.
If I had made this, I would've called it a hardware refresh... the model F5.
But it doesn’t have any f-keys.
TKL is fine with me. But I've long since gone wireless on my set up.
I use a locally sourced board, no branding, with BT functionality and use pandas. I find it incredibly hard to return to cabled periphs now.
I would love to see one of these that has the full modern 104 key layout. I love the look and sound of these Model Fs but I can't handle without my fullsize
i thought i “never used function keys” until i got a 65%... yeah fn+number is annoying compared to just pressing a f row key. Next keyboard will be 75% or TKL
I got a Huntsman mini, and I can't even use shortcuts like Ctrl+whatever I guess because it clashes with the rgb control shortcuts. I also miss the arrow keys a lot more than I thought I would. Next keeb will be a bigger layout for sure.
For $355, I'd expect it to read my mind and do the typing for me!
The model F xt was 600 new in the 80's today would be 900-1000 dollars The F77 keyboard was based on the and older bank teller keyboard for commercial grade uses with commercial grade components where around a 1000 dollars. That is why they last & type the same after 30-40 years. So this is a steal at this price. Typing on my 1983 Model F xt right now. Better than any so called mx style switch. Once you type on one you will never want to type on anything else. If some how you find one cheap which is next to impossible but if you do you need a XT AT to USB Soarer's Converter it allows +Remapping +Macros +NKRO Support IBM Model F. Model M keyboards do not support NKRO which you need for gaming.
@@digitaltactics9234 No matter its history or intention to it, for majority of people 400$+ is absolutely ridiculous
I can see the complaints on the layout, but setting up layers and changing the function hold to a toggle makes it significantly better. I currently use it with two layers: one with F keys and directions on the right numpad cluster w/ number row intact and another with them on the number row and the right cluster being a numpad. Instead of function hold I bound the blank key between right ctrl and alt to a toggle for it. It works a dream for playing DOS games where you control a character with the numpad and use F5/7 for Save/load respectively. Also if you flash the VIA firmware and follow the guide you can rebind anything just by loading the program up and changing it. It really works great and I personally do not have any qualms with it, especially after tuning the springs just right.
Whoa was not expecting to see Garden City, NY on that packing slip.
Unicomp is now releasing a tenkeyless keyboard (aka SSK), fashioned after the Model M SSK. Might make for another good video.
Yep, I've got one of those on order as well
@@LGRBlerbs did you know you can convert an M to an F? It's not easy... But can be done
@@cheater00 a group are working on a drop in replacement module for the M to make it a F
@@floof5359 if you read the forum thread you'll notice me talking in it
fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me
Painful price aside, I would be tempted if it had a modern layout plus this build quality and buckling springs. Otherwise, it's very neat but unjustifiable for me.
The build quality is completely terrible. Every single one comes out of the box needing to have the keys taken off and springs repositioned.
@@kyle8952 That happens in shipment, common problem with bucking spring keyboards since forever.
Oh, this thing supports QMK. Then it's pretty godly. I'm not a huge fan of that either so I see how it annoyed you, but you can do what you want for the most part once you figure it out. Basically, the online thing is used to create the layout and compile new firmware for the keyboard, and then you use the QMK tool thing that you install to flash it (you need a certain key combination to do it, that I think varies depending on the keyboard you have). I hope they make more models. I'm pretty interested in getting an ergo, so that would be nice. But the Kishsaver + a macro pad would be pretty good.
I understand the frustration with configuring the QMK firmware if you bought something without knowing about it. However it's totally worth the time to configure and gives you way more flexibility than most local software clients can.
I use a preonic and the amount of features you can add to your keyboard is great. It's all open source so if you don't wish to use the online config tool then you can compile it locally and have it do whatever you wish.