Metal M -- with F Springs. It's MAGIC!!
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2023
- Check out this keyboard and more at: www.modelfkeyboards.com/
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Intro and Outro Music: "Earth Bound" by Slynk
Other Music: "Lively" & "FollowHer" by Zeeky Beats
Edited by Autumn - Věda a technologie
Thanks Wendell for making this video on the Brand New Model F Keyboards project! If you do adapt the new Model F into the IBM SSK case, please do let me know how it goes. I would not recommend it as you would probably have to irreversibly trim some plastic off the original case to fit the larger inner assembly of a Model F. Regarding the recessed case, I do want to let everyone know that you can also order the F104 and FSSK with a standard Model M style case that is made out of metal and whose interior design is adapted to the Model F. A downside is that unfortunately you can't switch an inner assembly from the compact case to the classic case or vice versa as they are slightly different in design (you could do this with the F62/F77 though).
"I've got 20 Model M Keyboards" 10:16
Most Wendell sentence ever.
12:30 Not sure if they will make anymore batches of these keyboards to correct any tolerances, since they are apparently limited to 200 pieces each only
I have had nothing but headaches with my Model F77 for the past year, with keys repeating or not registering, and weird USB issues. Worst is that it is random most times. I have followed the manual; I cannot believe he ships them unassembled with little testing for $500+. So many springs out of spec that I've replaced with mixed results. I've restored two OG model Fs down to bare metal and had way less issues with those. Joe is responsive and offers troubleshooting, but he should really hire a 3rd party to do proper QA and accept warranty issues...
I got mine last week and just put it together tonight. I agree with you completely, it's a great keyboard. If anyone orders one, be sure to check out the page with the keyboard feet - by default it comes with some small square sticker feet and I feel like it needs a little more lift in the back. Also, the instructions say to watch the assembly video. Absolutely do this, even if you think you know what you're doing. Definitely happy with the keyboard and I hope they sell a ton of these. Well, thousands anyway - a ton would be like 7 or 8 given how heavy they are.
Do you still get occasional reverb on some keys, even after adjusting the springs? Mine has a few “stubborn” keys that just won’t stop their song lol
@@ChatGTA345 Yeah, I get some, but I haven't gone in and adjusted anything yet. I'm going to give it a week or two of daily use and see how it ends up. Definitely want to get the feet installed, it's a thick beast and I need it angled up a bit.
@@Who-Dat42 Same! My order with the feet just shipped, so fingers crossed (pun intended)
I used to be a huge fan of older mechanical keyboards, but in recent time I got a modern tactile switch (Akko Jelly CS Purple), and holy crap do I love this more than anything else I've used (Model M, Model F, Futaba MA41, alps black and alps white).
But I love seeing modern recreations.
Oh, man. Same! I've got Jelly Purples in my work keyboard, and I loooove it.
Have akko lavenders in mine and love it, starting to think about getting an aluminum one though. I owned a model M for years and still miss that brick.
Medium tactile gang unite.
Akko Lavenders, T1s and Tecsee Sapphires are my go-to switches.
I first started getting in to computers when the model m's were in all the school pcs. Loved those keyboards. An entire school lab full of them was loud as hell, but in the mid 90's no one clued in MP3's were illegal yet, so we had our school network loaded with them, so no one could hear just how annoying the keys were.
This!
Still waiting for the fully assembled Model M conversion kit to be available in the Level1Tech store! Also I really need that n-key rollover board Wendell, waiting for something like this for soo long! Any ETA?
I got the model F77 last year as buckling spring reference keyboard and it has been really amazing... if not including the lack of function keys. I have built all kinds of modern keyboards with Box v2, U4, U4TX, Various Tecsee switches, Clickiez, Oil Kings etc. and none of these compare to the deep and bouncy type feeling of the model F. It was expensive of course but now that we have an alternative without compromizing the layout...
Also I was blown away how good the buckling spring is in fast paced FPS gaming: it's very easy to do rapid pushes as the feedback is so unlike anything else and so forgiving due to the push range: it's like your fingers would be jumping on a trampoline.
While I am not interested in purchasing this obvious first run / beta model for will certainly keep an eye out for a more refined version. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!
Currently got a pre-order in for the f122. Are you planning on doing a review of that monster when that comes out?
Love these retro keyboard reviews
I feel like it would be better if they added that bowl curve like the model M, to follow the curve of the keys… personally I feel like the silver with the grey and white key caps is a little weird. But this is super cool, I hope they do more modernizations
They do have that in the classic model, I believe
@@ChatGTA345 ahhh, nice. I’ll have to see what all else they offer
Fun video, i like that taper aluminum case too. Looks fancy brush aluminum. I has a old IBM compac keyboard that still works today, unkillable.
Model F aint the holly grail. The Model F was the IBM Beamspring built down to a price (and then the Model F was further built down to a price with the Model M). The beamsprings are the true gods of the IBM keyboards. Of course they're massive, and while they're incredibly loud and satisfying, for people in the 1960s they WEREN'T LOUD ENOUGH, that thing doesn't sound like my typewriter when I smash my fingers into it with 800g of force, so IBM even added a god damn massive solenoid that would fire a piece of metal into either another piece of metal or the case everytime you pressed a key (this could be disabled with a switch on most (all?) models).
It really is amazing when you first discover that the Model M is essentially what IBM came up with after the penny pinchers had had their way twice. Once you realise this though the fact that the Model M is actually a membrane keyboard where the entire layout is cast in a single piece of plastic makes sense. And the fact that IBM sealed them with plastic rivets (hence the bolt mod, which I suggest anyone do - if you have an older Model M that's a bit brittle inside and drop it, you can shear off every single plastic rivet at once quite easily - ask me how I know). There's also other reasons to do this, e.g. if you badly spill something on a Model M, especially a terminal Model M, if it gets in between the two layers of membrane you're basically fucked (again ask me how I know) - you cannot get into it without breaking every plastic rivet and doing the bolt mod. The Model M wasn't designed to be repairable, it was surprisingly a "buy a new one" item.
Which is only all the more impressive given how well the Model M's have actually stood up to the test of time, and how good they feel to type on. Let's remember that most of them are 30+ years old - some coming up to 40 years.
And also while the beamsprings are the completely opposite - fully metal case, each switch being its own module much like an MX switch or similar - let's also remember the systems they went with would set you back A LOT of money back in the day. And a beamspring keyboard will set you back A LOT of money today - last I checked here in the UK they were going for around £1500 to £2000. And that's just for a standard one, if you find something like a black one they can go for stupid prices. Personally I like the 6580 DisplayWriter, it's all white including the keys. The 6580 is also often cheaper, it was for a word processing machine and was the last beamspring IBM made, it included some cost saving measures like a speaker instead of a solenoid (although easy to mod if you want a solenoid), wouldn't be surprised if there was other cost saving measures internally - but it also included something cool which is a locking caps key, so you press it and it stays down while caps lock is on, press it again and it pops back up. Also makes sense why it was the last one, having such a huge expensive keyboard for a word processor wasn't very economical, so they built a cheaper smaller version - the first Model F model (then about 4 years later the Model M).
These are nice. I love custom mechanical boards, but don't have a buckle and spring. Definitely going to look into one of these.
You guys need to add a low frequency filter to your videos, 40hz 6db roll off, every time you move something on that table my sub goes crazy 😅
OUTSTANDING VIDEO !!!!! THIS WAS AWESUME !!!
The Northgate 486 computer I bought back in 1989 (it was neither an "SX" nor a "DX", it was before that marketing ploy), the keyboard had a 5.5 lb. steel backplate. The reason was so that (1) it wouldn't flex, and (2) wouldn't scoot around while typing on it. It was a good, sturdy keyboard. The keyboard I liked the best was the Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard. It was slightly shorter in width because instead of having the arrow keys in an "inverted T", they were in a "diamond" configuration. I'm now using a Perixx wired, backlit keyboard with a silicon keyboard skin. The Perixx uses scissor switches, which are quiet, non-clicky, and work perfect for those with a light touch (I do not pound the keyboard, largely due to how I was taught in Personal Typing class way back in high school in the 1970s -- we were not allowed to pound the keys on a typewriter, either manual or electric). If I could find another Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard in really good condition, I'd buy it (if it wasn't horribly expensive) because I could type faster and more accurately on that ergonomic keyboard. I've seen the newer ergonomic keyboards, though they aren't as good as the MS Natural or Natural Elite used to be.
the flashback to previous wendell was crazy. keep up the healthy lifestyle!
@5:22 Aren't the keys a bit too recessed, deeper into the case than where they should be, specially middle ones? Keys following a concave pattern from front to back, but keyboard case is flat and maybe too high?
@6:46 Wrote the above before seeing this. Definitely keys in middle rows look way too deep for that case, imho.
PS. Model M user here, back in late 80's early 90's, as well as now since before the pandemic. I remember using Model F's back then as well where I worked. I believe I resented a bit the sharp pinging sound, when I could choose I always preferred using the PC's that had the Model M's.
Where would one go to get that PCB conversion for a model M? And a cord replacement?
Yep, I need one.
Hi, I never found the smoothness and ease the Apple ][ plus keyboard (capacitive, non click) had in any other keyboard :/
Nice keyboard, really loving this retro content. Also, Wendell looking great and slim!
I wonder if the non-compact version has better fit and finish. It looks like it has a model M type housing.
I'm pretty budget conscience and was thinking of getting the New Model M. Are the keys that much better on this that the price difference might be worth it? Which do you like better, considering price to to performance?
I get matrix feels when I see you press the Esc key! :)
That's a Model MF. Make it into a typewriter and you could probably call it a Model BAMF.
Or buy a selectric iii?
My typing speed and accuracy have definitely improved with this one. The only minor gripe is that some keys occasionally “ping” a little too loud. I’ve tried to adjust those by re-sitting the springs as described in the manual, which helped with some, but others still reverb every now and then. I’m not sure, but this might just be due to the metallic chassis perhaps. It can probably be said that it’s all part of the audio profile of this lovely keyb.
The metal chassis definitely impacts the sound, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the metal resonates with the pings sometimes. You may be able to dampen it with something like a thin fabric lining inside (if there’s space, I don’t know how tightly it’s packed)
I love the model m so this would be right up my alley. Idk if its like super gimmicky as I prioritize function over aesthetics in a keyboard but yeah
So great. Was looking for a keyboard to last and noticed IBM model M dont have key roll over. The new model M keyboards from that one other company dont really do it for me. I dont like my corsair k70 and the Logitech Gaming keyboard is badly printed on and flakes off due to low quality design. Gonna get a model F I think or just an M in plastic shell.
The original XT layout was on the right track. If you are skilled enough with it, you never need to move your wrist to access the number, navigation functions and maybe even the mouse, even in modern command line or OSes.
Wendell, you've been posting a Beelink video when I was researching new machines for Work, now you post a video on keyboards when I am checking HHKB Type-S keyboards.. Please keep reading my mind!
I know how much you love this Wendle.
I don't know if I can use any sort of digital switch after using half effect sensors... The key presses are just so smooth.
Nice!!!! It is *REALLY* tempting (I like the model M, but the Model F has the noise and tactical feel I like best).... But sadly, not at present time - I'll stay on my current Corsair K70.
Wife and I use a K70 and an EVGA X20. Recently upgraded to the Steel Apex Ten Keyless. I prefer the Steel Apex with its magnetic keys. I also prefer as quiet a keyboard as possible which the Steel Apex is pretty quiet. It seemed to improve my League of legends skill activations.
I so wish I could afford one! I LOVE IBM Model M and Model F keyboards!
WOW a KB thats Open under the keys...Do they have a drawer to empty the crumbs out?? To Dump the liquid out?
ill be getting one. thats what ive been missing
Hadn’t realised how much weight you’ve lost as I watch your videos every week. Well done! 🎉
Also great video!
Buckling springs are back? Yes!
I've been trying to get an SSK for a reasonable price for years to use with my 3151 Display Station. Where on earth did you find 20 of them?
I hung on to every one I found since I was 11 . . .
I am so happy that i am happy with my "Logitech Deluxe 250" keyboard.
The handcrafted keyboard doesn't look as ergonomic as mine and costs a hundred times more while not having any better QA than mine which has literally been made in China. But maybe, it would last longer than mine - i only got fourteen years out of it so far and the laser engravings on some key caps already start to fade away...
So many gorgeous IBM keyboards you have! A suggestion, you can make some special giveaways on your next videos, I bet that many viewers will be excited about them. Keep posting.
would be interesting to cast a new top in aluminium from a mold of the old ones or 3D resin print maybe
Dangit Wendell, this is all your fault. Mine just shipped today and the anticipation is building, I doubt I'll regret it when it shows up so thanks for the extra push I guess.
Yes
THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING Brand New Model F!!! I own two of Joe's Model F reproductions, and you'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands!!! SIMPLY AMAZING. Any KB enthusiast should own one. It's feels like God's Model M, with an extremely satisfying mechanical 'clack' instead of the model M's softer membrane 'thuck'. You must try it, you won't regret it. As long as you don't mind the missing function row, the Zinc Classic case is the one to get, it feels like a time capsule piece from the 80's, and the build quality is just about perfect (none of the flaws of the aluminum case).
I never understood why people liked mechanical keyboards so much more than membrane, as I really liked my Microsoft Ergo keyboard. But then I used a mechanical keyboard for a week, and the next time I touched a membrane keyboard it felt horrible. I've never used a buckling spring keyboard, but I'm curious if I would notice it like I did with modern mechanical keyboards.
found a couple g80-3000 in the trash in 2002 .. recently built a pcb to mount these sweet vintage cherry blacks on something with a modern (usb-c) interface .. we will never ever part... not for this at least :D
The tech of this keyboard is impressive. Recreation at this level of detail and dedication is awesome. Now if they were only able to extend the same level of detail and decision to the case. Honestly the car looks like a nightmare. IBM dedicated a lot of time to ergonomics, it was equally as important as the mechanical feel and reliability of the switching mechanism.
He’s shipping models with the standard cases later this year
I have the original run 60% and I'd say it's not what you would call a refined design. Don't expect to just pull it out and use it. In fact expect to sit down watch a livestream or listen to a podcast and tweak every switch and key. I still have a key or two that stick every now and then. I will say when available it's my go to and tactility wise puts everything else to shame.
Wendel, you been working out? Looking good man!
I was gonna say the same thing :D
The only thing I hate about those old keyboards is the tiny shift/control keys.
Model M SSK FTW!
IMPRESSIVE JOB .... After this vid, I got recommended the " Improving The Greatest Keyboard of All Time! Model M + QMK = Awesome " video and didn't realize how much weight was lost in just 1 year.
Woot!
I have one of the classic style F62 from this manufacturer, and I recently ordered a classic F77 after the price drop as well.
I have to say, I'm not terribly impressed with the case on the example in this video. The die cast zinc case on my F62 is absolutely impeccable. I really don't like how recessed the uppermost keys look in the case and the way the bolts stick out of the bottom like that. The retro cases look way better IMO.
Get to the thing i want to see the thing !!!!!! :)
Omg, it all sound like beating the trash can... I love mechanical keay boards but hate the loudnes of them...
i got 202 full size black. 😀😀
what's the difference between these and the unicomp reproductions?
This keyboard has a metal case and buckling springs in the style of a Model F's, so they sit on top of a capacitance-sensing PCB and has NKRO. Unicomp makes Model Ms (I also wouldn't say they're strictly reproductions IMO, they're mostly made with old IBM/Lexmark era moulds and by their old staff) which use a membrane assembly under their buckling springs and thus limited to 2KRO. Unicomp's cases are also plastic. Whilst they're easy to tell they're related keyboard designs, due to some select differences in the buckling springs (the spring coils and the flippers on the end of them), Model F style and Model M style keyboards also feel different and sound in terms of weighting and ping pitch respectively. Model Fs are considered to be better technology wise, Model Ms are generally far more affordable.
@@sharktastica a shark in the wild!
Replace the membrane with Hall Effect sensors then add tiny magnets to the bottom of the keys and tadaaaaa!
membrane "wires" in fact
A solid metal keyboard that isn't unnecessarily loud for the sake of being loud would be nice.
Do you pronounce it "capacitative" or "capacitive"
Capacitive.
Keep up the good work. You look much thinner.
Wendell, considering you might be one of the more knowledgeable people on these keyboards, and given your career space more than likely allows you the tools to do it, do you happen to know what the power consumption of capacitive switch boards are? I know there'll be difference from microcontroller to microcontroller, etc., but I'm curious if there's a noticeable difference in power consumption between capacitive sensing and typical contact switches; especially when it comes to if someone wants to make a wireless keyboard, y'know where a difference in voltages and microamps, especially across 100-some keys, can make a difference. I haven't really dived down the rabbit hole, but I haven't really seen anyone provide this kind of information, and I'm genuinely curious what the power draw characteristics between various key types are; I know inductive sensors, though they're great for analog where hall effect sensors have issues, is probably one of the more electrically expensive, with hall sensors second in line, I'm just not sure where capacitive sensors, or even resistive sensors, would sit on the power draw hierarchy. Even just hooking up a USB power draw meter and recording draw over time (or, draw change via key presses, as an x+ny function, x being base with no keypresses, n being amount of keys, and y being draw increase per key, as change in capacitance would imply that the open and closed states should have different electrical characteristics) on one of your USB-converted boards would be fairly useful information, though I'd have to account for microprocessor draw. I have some ideas bouncing around in my head, and knowing the electrical properties of various switches (or virtual switches in anything that's contactless) would be extremely valuable information.
when is the content creator smash and who u versing ?
nah my arrow keys left and right, stick, right i fix pretty quick, left took forever, and changed the spring, still is way stiffer than all other keys.
I actually use a model F right here. But a German one with cherry switches.
Sounds a little different
Slightly off topic, but I'll post this anyways for the engagement and algorithms and such: I got a Unicomp Model M some time ago and while it may not have be up to IBMs quality standards, I really did enjoy typing on a factory new Model M. Unfortunately not even a week into using that keyboard, my downstairs neighbor complained about the noise. I wish I was kidding. In all fairness, I do bottom out key presses like a cave man.
Get an extended mousepad or deskmat, it can help dampen the vibrations
Indeed b
I bought the even more compact version of this (no F-row, seen here 14:05 ) with a full Numpad, being smaller the case is level with the keys and it doesn't have the recessed keystroke problem.
As a gaming keyboard the ultra compact layout with Numpad is close to perfection and the Model F being somewhat lightweight in the keystroke works very well.
The only other keyboard I have that comes close to the price of this is a full size Topre, but that's full size so I don't use it much (my desk has a flight stick bolted in the middle, and my other desk has a racing wheel).
BeeJesus! ❤
let us know if the maker of those keyboards finds a sudden surge or order today :D
I'm a huge fan of the Microsoft 600 keyboard, it has a Windows key, a proper keyboard, and is very quiet. God forbid that you should find yourself in an office full of these clacking, noisy, flashing, brash mechanical keyboards, and their lovers 😅. I'd love a mechanical keyboard, but one which is QUIET !!!!
I can't afford! :(
The keycaps look great, but for such an expensive keyboard, this chassis unfortunately looks like it was made in one's garage…
Ohhhh momma... $349 each!
Keyboard Pron.
I bought a Model M from unicomp in the late 2000's because I missed the old mechanical keyboards. Sad to say that it did not last long. I was expecting it to last forever, and then the USB was causing issues, and I had to change. I learned my lesson and went with a more modern keyboard. Now I just buy variations of Corsair K70. The metal body, low noise keys and the volume roller at top is more desirable than the Model F / M. I still like watching other people enjoy their older keyboards though. Hopefully yours lasts longer than mine. :)
The metallic ping is the opposite of what modern keyboard enthusiasts want 🤷
I like thock but I also love the old school ping (even more)
I know it's supposed to be a limited run, but that case with all it's exposed screws, & bare aluminum looks very prototypey/reviewer model to me. Hopefully they offer differing case types in the future, otherwise I'll have to give it a pass as the old school keyboard coloring alongside a bare aluminum case just looks like an odd paring to my eye.
If only it was a folded steel case.
A video of clicks
Was tempted to buy one but seeing the horrible case design given the price i don't think so
no such thing as holy grails in keebs. haha. nice keeb tho.
Personally, as someone who is old enough to have used Model M keyboards in their natural habitat during their heyday, and as someone who doesnt know much about the mechanical keyboard hobby/craze, I must say that this keyboard looks ugly and uncomfortable. But if you say its the "holy grail", I suppose I believe you. Thanks for sharing. Love the channel.
This looks like a high school student's first engineering project.
While I suppose this is interesting from a historical perspective, but I've never really understood the appeal of these old keyboards beyond that. Then again, I like the tech behind optical keyboards too just for the sake of the technology, so who am I to judge, lol. I just wish that we'd move past the days of fixed scan codes for each key and actually have true generic keys that can be configured to anything you want, I shouldn't have to fight every system under the sun to turn a secondary keypad into a generic macropad, etc. Damn you linux HID drivers!
As long as they are not doing a stupid ass group buy, I will consider it
I don't understand how anyone can use a keyboard that thick
With a wrist rest?
@@profosistyeah but that's just more steps to fix a problem that shouldn't exist
@@tehsimo I disagree I use a wrist rest for just about every keyboard size can differ depending on the size of the keyboard
Sounds like an assault rifle.
OMFG that case is unbearably ugly... thank god he's also selling a "classic" model-m style case, with a proper contour to avoid recessing half the keys, instead of this ugly tapered block of aluminium, that looks like an off-the-shelf project case with cutouts. Also is it me, or does anyone else think those screws at the bottom are inexcusable? They need to be recessed! Recess the bolt heads, not the keycaps!
Anyone else's subwoofers go crazy @3:57?
Sounds a little too messy to have to toy with your spring flapper.
Great keyboard though.
It's capacitive, not compacitative.
Not a good layout? You never used WordPerfect, did you? The left-hand Fkeys were seriously OP with WordPerfect.
the metal case part of it looks pretty ugly imo. doesn't feel like it fits this type of keyboard. kinda cool overall though
Rather than dip into your IBM stash for a donor case, couldn't you enlist the services of a metal worker to fabricate an aluminum case with the proper cutouts? I know it's expensive, but you've gone this far already. I think the cost is worth preserving your collection.