Subaru Cold-Start MISFIRE? (Diag & "Repair")
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- čas přidán 7. 02. 2023
- At 200k miles, owner of this 2003 Subaru Outback says the engine "shakes" for about 10 seconds after a cold start with the CEL flashing....Then it runs smooth!
Hmmm P0304 is set, so let's take a look at cylinder #4.
Is this BAD NEWS for this Subaru, or can it keep going for another few years?
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Enjoy!
Ivan - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Nice job. What I love about Ivan is he’s always looking out for his customers to save them money where he can and gives them options.
so many places are just like nope you need a head gasket or what ever they are selling..
Totally agree; he spends his customers money like it's his own.
As others have said this car would be a good candidate for waterglass, a.k.a. sodium silicate. There are many name brands for this same product which has been used for decades. For small leaks like this it works wonders. It will harden at the point of the leak but not plug up the radiator, etc.
A lot of companies have tried to frump it up with fancy sounding additives to make it sound space age, but good old sodium silicate has been around for 100 years doing a good job in cases like this. If it stops the leak for another year or two, then the owner will make out. If it does not help, they are only out $10 for the bottle of magic.
EDIT: Someone else posted that Subaru suggests using their own brand of stop leak. That would be a good choice as it would eliminate any problems with a particular coolant not being compatible with sodium silicate. At the very least you can find their product number and looks up the MSDS to see what is in the bottle.
great advice,I've used blue devil leak sealant before. it only lasted a year and cost me 75 bucks,but it held me over until i could replace the gasket.
I read up on waterglass,I'm so glad i did.YOU taught me what this stuff is and it makes sense,it's not a repair >but a band-aid.ONE that may work at least on a temporary basis,which is great.And like you said ,you don't need the name brand expensive stuff,to try it out.MLG gaskets have the thin layer of rubber to act as a sealer,much like old school gasket shellac,all this stuff EVENTUALLY starts to leak,it's sealing very high pressure.Worth a try.so thank you.
Use a lower pressure radiator cap, that may not guarantee there won't be a combustion leak into coolant. Put in some stop leak for good measure. Coolant in oil will end bad. Some coolants are not compatible with sodium silicate - turns to jelly.
do you use the whole bottle? How many ounces?
Another ¿trick? to repair a used car for resale to an unsuspecting. Kinda like sawdust in the differential
@@tomtke7351 No, It is something you do with full knowledge of the owner to help them get buy for a while longer. Not everyone has the money to buy another vehicle so if they can get another year or two from it, they have a chance to try and save up for a newer car.
That was resourceful and economical fix, I like it. Even if temporary, you gained enough confidence to suggest a new head gasket with a reasonable chance of success. I think this is a win.
by the way, as an aside: That 10 yr old battery is a good example how long they can last if never overly discharged. Remember that for lead-acid cells, 1.75 volts (per cell) is the magic number, below which the danger of reversal increases exponentially. Once reversed it's game over for longevity, even tho the battery may seem ok.
I was taught many years ago to slightly loosen any bolt you are going to re-torque. The reason is that the initial torque required to move a bolt that is tight might be higher than the torque it is tightened to.
Whether or not that is true, I have no idea, but I always loosen them first.
There is some truth to this and it has to do with the coefficient of Static Friction always being greater that the coefficient of Dynamic friction.
That said, I probably wouldn't do the procedure you mentioned. Most bolt torques are just getting you in the ballpark anyway because there are so many uncontrolled variables. I would just torque in stages when you are unable to reach the desired torque in one smooth motion. Even if you don't get it perfect, it was probably be fine.
That said, I like to retorque (when possible) after a few full heat cycles...especially on intake manifolds of a "V" style of 6+ cylinder engines.
As always Ivan gets a thumbs up before I even watched because I know it will be interesting and informative.
I appreciate that!
I needed to get about 4 more months out of a used BMW with the 4 cylinder engine; but after getting a $1,200 estimate for a valve job & head gasket, I got a BMW manual from the local library, lowered the coolant level, and after minimally loosening each head bolt, I re-torqued the head bolts in the required criss-cross pattern to the correct torque values in three stages, as required by BMW. Then, as insurance, I added a little Stop-Leak to the anti-freeze. My cheap repair lasted my daughter the whole summer she needed it for transportation to get to and from work, and to and from the beaches, in the high summer heat of a hot coastal SC City. At the end of the summer, the BMW had metastatic engine cancer, so I got her a very low-priced new car, with AC and CD player, from a local Ford dealer for driving to and from Wisconsin for graduate school, and the new car never had a problem, except for occasionally bumping into things that shouldn’t have been where she was driving. The moral of the story is that re-torquing the head can keep an engine alive for longer than you might think possible, and holes or divots in aluminum heads or blocks can be fixed with a judicious application of the original JB Weld if you let it set up several days to be completely hard before putting everything back together.
This could be a perfect patient for some sort of cooling system sealer. With such a small leak, and especially where the leak is, it would probably be very successful, and the most economical option for the customer👍🇦🇺
K-Seal works for this
@@gasauto1675 What I came here to say! Should have been run as a preventative in this situation when the head gasket was done in my opinion.
Ivan, You are the rare person who is looking out for the other person's pocket book. Keep up the good work!
Hey, there is a skill in being able to judge the value of a repair to a client. Too much and they will reject it, too little any you probably gave yourself a difficult job.
I love these creative fixes, it's like a scientific experiment, very exciting to see how much you can get out of a vehicle with simple repairs. Also, that thing looks like a pain in the ass to work on with that engine layout
Well done, Ivan!
Your a star ⭐️ in this day and age nobody would’ve taken the time to try an alternative for the costomer well done 👍
Good job Ivan!
My wife's 09 developed a head gasket failure in 17 took it to the dealership and they replaced both to the tune of about 2800 dollars fast forward 10 months and same symptoms visible oil on top of left side of engine, long story short after reminding them that she bought it there and they had done all the regular maintenance and service on it including the head gaskets less than a year ago they replaced that gasket again at no charge, no further issues with it and have given it to our grandson who is driving it still
I had 3 different Subarus from 1974 thru 1983. In those days it was necessary to have the heads retorqued yearly/15,000 miles to stop gasket failures. The bodies didn't last long enough to wear out the engines, so most were in the junkyard before the engines crapped out. They were easy to work on back then.
Well, not too bad of a "repair" retorquing the heads to slightly higher, is certainly a short term solution, at least the customer is aware of that. The boroscope video evidence and this video evidence is plenty enough to prove you did the best you could do without added to much money! Great video!, Ivan great job! 👍
Иван, я наблюдаю за тобой и Эриком О с 2015 года. Продолжай.
At 0:41, "it's at 199,000 miles" I thought this was gonna be a Ice-T video (Jay-Z stole the song from Ice)...🤣🤣🤣
Great job Ivan, another no parts required success.
As soon as Ivan said, "misfire only on cold start up", the first thing that popped into my head was, bad head gasket? There is really not much you could have done at this point. Once a head gasket starts leaking, it's a done deal. You could try over torquing the head bolts by an extra 10 to 20 foot pounds over spec. And as Ivan was saying, there is no guarantee that this will work. And even if it does help, it's only temporary. Eventually, the gasket will have to be replaced and the head will need to be milled flat again.
Some people might be tempted to try a head gasket sealer. I wouldn't recommend using that option if you intend to keep the vehicle for much longer. But I've had a number of customers who have tried that stuff. And in most cases, it did work for a good while. And despite common disbeliefs, that stuff can eventually clog up heater cores and radiators over time.
Subaru sells bottles of coolant conditioner which has stop leak in it. I would at least do that to help it along. Rust is always the deciding factor for me when deciding on large repairs. Subaru now uses turbo head gaskets on the single cammer 2.5. I buy them and the head bolts from Subaru. About the same price as aftermarket.
I’ve had pretty good luck using the blue devil head gasket sealer for issues just like this got me more than a few years several times
I had a Nissan Altima 2.5 with the infamous porous cylinder head. It would wet out all 4 cylinders after a hot shutdown and would be a crank/no start unless it sat for several hours. Then it would be a rough start. Not wanting to do a head replacement (it wasn't a head gasket), the customer wanted to try a mechanic in a bottle approach. I didn't like it, but the customer is the boss. We used K&W Block Seal. It actually worked, problem never returned and the car was fine for at least 5 more years. This Subaru might also be a good candidate for something similar.
Hi Ivan, I know that the Fel Pro gaskets have been in service on her motor for a while but they are kinda known for not being the best. I did mine (08 Impreza) in Sept 22 after being inspired from your video (from this car I think - they were done in-car which was impressive..), and I used the 770 Subaru turbo gaskets instead. I did cut the heads as they were super-warped. Regardless, I like your out-of-the-box response on this with the re-torque. Could be ok as per the bonus footage, I guess we shall see. Cheers from Canada.
This is what I've read/ heard as well- for a Subie EJ head gasket job, best to go with the Subie MLS turbo gaskets. I've also heard/ read some good things about the Six-Star gaskets, but I'd probably just go with the OEM.
Thank you Ivan.
Resleeving the cylinders is the best option to prevent leaks, there's a few companies that make performance version sleeves. Also modifying the cooling system equalizes the cooling on both sides, reducing the heat stress on cyl #4.
Hi Ivan,
Looks good for now, but your advice about a possible another car in the future is sound. You and your family stay safe.
Good job Ivan! Helping a damzel in distress! She may get another 6 months out of that engine & that's a good thing!
I hope so!
Or 6 years and thats an even better thing!!!
I've got a 99 Forester with the 2.5L that I bought new. It blew the head gaskets at 180K in 2010. I replaced them myself and it's still my daily driver at 318K.
* I didn't drive it long after they blew, which can erode the heads and/or block surface
* I had the heads resurfaced
* I used Sub head gaskets and new head bolts. I *think* I coated them with the copper sealant.
Done a few head jobs on the flat four Subaru boxer engine in my days.believe it or believe it not ivan your on the right track I came on this problem before and with as you say a little research I found that the subaru head bolt torque sequence isn't exactly good enough.i think if memory serves me right the last sequence is a 180° pull. But what I found out was that after you do the 180° pull leave it to sit for 10 to 15mins and in sequence give the head bolts an extra 90° degree pull there or there abouts and you wont see that issue again.
Ive been doing it that way for good few years now and I've ever had that issue again🙂.
Just a little bit of info taught you might be interested to hear.
I've been nursing a GM 3.4L with coolant leaking into the combustion chamber for almost 4 years now. Annual liquid glass treatments work pretty well. I have to run the heater sometimes in the Summer to manage the coolant temp in traffic... Extended crank time lets me know when it's time to treat it to the Liquid Glass Spa Treatment again. Frequent oil changes help too.
Might have to eventually take Scotty's advice and put some kind of chemical coolant sealant if the cars nearly junker there's nothing to loose.
I use the Fel Pro head gaskets and install ARP stud kit, that will usually prevent any future head gasket issues on these engines.
I have had good service from the higher end Maxx batteries from WM but 12 years is a pretty stellar number.
I had an '05 Forester with 285K on it. Head gasket leaking on #4 also. Decided to throw a "Hail Mary" with Blue Angel head gasket sealer and a slightly lower range pressure cap. I drove it for 3 years with no issues. Sold (cheap) it to a guy that knew what I did last year. So far he has experienced no problems.
I love my Subaru and I love this video and the comments.
The subaru used parts market is highly affordable thanks to you lot.
I'm at 378000 km's, original block, original gaskets.
Long live the hate!
you ll get customers for life nice one ivan
yep, when ever somebody asks me about suburu cars. I always say not bad but they tend to blow head gaskets over time. gr8 vid.
you are a lifesaver a real godsend!
Ever notice, some people have problems with well maintained cars and others can take a car on it's last leg and drive across the country and back with no issues.
All machines fall apart, no matter how well designed. Thumbs way up on the
patchjob-fix........many times this is the best way to repair something old and
dying.
really? Those Steam engines sure seem to last pretty long.
@@marty0715yt YUP, like all machinery that is old an continues to work. You make a commitment to it and throw lots of money at it, it will work great. An old beatercar, worth a few thousand dollars, is a lot different financial-scenario than a steam-engine embedded in a
commercial-setup worth millions of dollars.
When I was an apprentice heavy commercial diesel mechanic, with the older shit, when they came in for a head bolt re-torque (no yield specs in them days) we would crack the bolts off a quarter turn, (in order and one at a time) then retorque to spec, they def tightened up more then they were before, tried just re-torqueing (without the cracking off) a few times as an experiment and almost always the torque wrench would click indicating they were at the correct torque, nice work as ever thugh Ivan 🙂
Yeah, I had to deal with a couple older Outbacks with the leaky EJ25 engines, Replaced the head gaskets a couple times. Filnally replaced the engines with the EJ20 version. These engines never had Head Gasket issues, and they are Plug-and-Play. I got a couple videos on my channel about it. Of course the fuel map is now a little rich for the smaller displacement engine, but the trims can handle it. Easy cars to work on, for sure.
Wouldn't it be underpowered then?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics that is correct. But not noticeable to my 17yo learning to drive.
We have used head gasket sealer on older engines before and it worked .
A little Pontiac tempest leaking inside and external when we got it.
Drove it for 3 or 4 years no problem
I always have the heads flattened. I have a machined block of steel I use. I usually can see low spots while sanding them. The 6 cyl I just did had low spots on all the bottoms. It's on my 3.0l llbean 2001 outback that I restored.
Barrs …. It’s a wrench in a can kids deal but it won’t hurt if you follow the installation/addition instructions.
Nothing to loose.
Good decision, Ivan! Nothing to loose and it may hold for a while, giving customer time to decide.
I had an odd case, many years ago, in a friend's motorcycle, that was leaking at the head gasket. Replaced the gasket and two weeks later it was back leaking. Checked torque and it was loose. Retorqued it and it went well for less than a week. Disassembling the whole head showed that the cylinder studs were stretching!
That's crazy lol
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yep. Always comes to mind when I see a head gasket leak 🙂
dissimilar metals different expansion rates chafing the head gasket thru thermal cycle, I have used ceramic block sealer with water, disconnecting heater hoses thermostat etc , it does work drive it for a day a few heat cycles drain out run water for another day and then anti freeze with a lower pressure rad cap .
I cannot believe Subaru has this kind of problems always thought the Subaru's amazing vehicles always wanted one maybe not so much now after all of this
The MLS gaskets, even the Fel Pros that he used take care of it. Subaru re-did tons of them.
Certainly Subaru let this issue go on way to long, but it was on one engine series, the FJ25. This motor is out of production and the FA and FB engines don't have the problem. I've driven Subarus for decades and have done head gaskets one time, and drove the car for another 100K miles, no issues.
I agree. I have a 2006 Subaru sti, 1st and last. Ej257 boxer engine.
The only parts to put on a subaru are subaru OE. I have a 2014 outback with 150,000 miles with only one wheel bearing replaced. I hit a curb with the side of the wheel. I have the factory reco.mended items performed at the manufacture intervals. With one exception. I change the oil every 3,000 miles.
When you changed the transmission in your wife's Nissan Rogue, you went to pick her up at work and you asked her what she would buy; she answered a Subaru Forrester. Personally, I think you should allow her to buy a Forrester and you could get practice changing the cylinder head gaskets on this car. So, when hers goes out (and it will) you would be very well-versed in its repair. My 2005 F-350 6.0 diesel did the same thing this car does in the morning, except on a much larger scale when the EGR cooler ruptured and sucked all the engine coolant in. I wonder if AT-205 Re-seal would help? Great video!
Years ago I had a 70 El Camino with a 350 that missed when starting. A friend told me to start it and immediately shut it off, then remove the spark plugs and see which one was wet. One was, and a head gasket change solved the problem. I miss the days of simpler diagnosis and solutions.
Sometimes we have to leave good enough alone and use the common sense God gave us! No harm done here. I’m all for it Ivan! Great job bro!
I had great luck with head gasket sealer used on a solid copper head gasket that was leaking when 1st installed and after 25 years still no leaks.🤞
I had a friend back in the 80's with a Subaru and vaguely remember them having major cylinder head issues. Maybe a rev limiter to not over stress the weak link of this engine!
Hi Ivan, you could try "rad weld" they used to call it for fixing small leaks, i dont like the stuff myself but it might do it...Fred in Uk
Cylinder 4 is known to have the hottest temps. this is because of its lack of coolant flow. look up Domtune cooling mod for Cyl 4. i would redo the headgasket on this side only and do the domtune cooling mod. should last much longer.
My father just bought a mint Mazda cx9 from an auction that needed a trans. No problem. We do all our repairs in house tho.
If the problem is water, then you have to consider that the system may be pressurized too much and the head gasket cannot handle it. I know they are designed to run pressurized, but I have run cars with the cap just partly closed so it does not leak into the head. The cooling system will still work, probably just as well as before the leak. Also, I would have torqued it even more, up to 100 ft.lbs. The bolts and head should handle that.
Good going! I like the retorque idea - don't know if I would have thought of that. I'd dump in some cooling system sealer just in case. I'd much rather replace the head gaskets, but you gotta ask yourself how much time that would buy and would it be worth it. I'd much prefer an engine where you simply torque the bolts, and possibly retorque them after a few miles. If a complicated procedure is required for sealing the head gasket, you gotta ask yourself what they are trying to compensate for, and whether it really works.....
Problem is they use the angle to tighten heads how, so for example 70ft lb then 90 degrees, which means you don't end up with a torque value, unless you measured it at the time of installation with one of yer fancy digital wrenches. Apparently the angle method is more reliable.
Those engines are known for head gaskets.
Do not recall if not changing the coolant soon enough is part of the cause.
As it naturally deteriorates over time it starts to conduct electricity between the dissimilar metals and attachs the metal head gasket via drawing metal away form it. A cathodic process that all modern automobiles have to be monitored for.
I had an external coolant leak on a car for which I replaced a head gasket but failed to check the head flatness. I then torqued head bolts well above spec - and 45K miles later there's been no leakage, no problems.
Perfect candidate for an LS3.
dump in a bottle of Blue Devil Pour & Go and cross your fingers :) That stuff fixed my 6.5 diesel head gasket for 2 years now and still going... You might suggest that if it starts seeping again
Up here in Wisconsin we use k seal works great for head gasket.
1 Any chance you didn't replace the bolts when you did the head job?
2.Try the BM sealing tabs. They were installed from the factory and I use them for on the fly resealing my 1.9 L Saturn engines. I have over half a million miles on one and over 250,000 miles on the other. Without the pellets these engines usually blow their head gaskets in around 2 weeks, just like the caddy's do without the pellets. They are actually the only way most of the 1990's all aluminum engines will run. There's a similar Barrs product that worked on my friends T-Bird. Two weeks after he changed the antifreeze and removed the stop leak the head gasket blew. This stuff will NOT seal blown head gaskets, but will prevent cold start seeping in some engines. No promises, but you don't have much to lose.
I agree. I remember Ivan not replacing the head bolts and just reusing the old. Expensive mistake in my opinion
We blew the head gasket on an old beater Jeep one night out wheeling and managed to keep it going for several months by cracking an egg white into the radiator and only installing the cap half way so it couldn't build pressure. Not a long term fix to be sure but it was better than walking that night. Lol
we used to retorque heads after getting engine warmed up on the old flatheads. Put some sealer in it
Ivan, going to email you a couple of pictures of my '03 Forester related to head gaskets. Too bad I can't post them here. I too save head gaskets that have obvious failure points. Had one on a Honda Civic that one corner was *FOLDED OVER*! Totally unreal!
Only use the Subaru OEM turbo engine head gaskets on all engines. Multi layer metal with no coating. For some reason the Felpro gaskets fail between 40,000 to 60,000.
excellent
Try bars leak head gasket sealer, it works for me.
I always had good luck with the "older" more expensive walmart batteries, that's pretty much all I ran and installed in other peoples vehicles. until about 2012, I think they changed manufacturers about then and went south. but I have really not used them since.
VERY interesting hair style!
Add some stop leak. K-Seal has worked well for me when trying to buy a client time.
I’ve never been a big Subaru fan for that reason!!
We're heartbroken.
For those extremely cases we should try blue devil head gasket sealer
My first thought a few minutes in was "Yeah, if it was mine I'd just grunt the head down until it stopped leaking or broke" 😄
I like to use the copper spray on those gaskets when I do subarus.
Great solution for this situation. Nice work Ivan. Myself, I would even put in a tube of aluma seal. Don’t even know if it is still available but I have a bunch. Used at times years ago and it worked great and never had problems clogging heater core. ( external leaks) What would one have to lose?
I was going to make the same comment as Brian W. I have used Aluma Seal or similar brands in my vehicles for 30+ years. I was turned on to it by a friend of mine that used it on old cars, trucks, and tractors. I have fixed 2 International tractors, a Case 580 C Backhoe and my one owner 1998 ford F150. In the F150 I smelled antifreeze but could not see any leakage. I added the Aluma Seal about 4 years ago. I stopped the leak and it is still good. I used it in a 1986 Ford F350 truck at work that (460 cu. in.) I drove that had a plastic radiator. A crack opened up in the radiator on a cold start and coolant would leak out until it warmed up. I added some Aluma Seal and it would stop the leak until the night time mechanics came in and changed the coolant every year or two. I would just go buy a new tube. That truck was retired in 1994 and still had the same radiator in it. Good stuff, price is high, $21.99 on Amazon.
@@JCHD18CVOLim 22$ ,wow, happy I stocked up when it was about 4$ .
So your over torquing worked for now. Good job looking out for the customer. Probably a new head gasket would be a reasonable next step and cheaper than a newish car.
I would base that on how rusty the car is. These cars aren't known to handle rust very well, but if the car is in good shape it would be worth it.
Sounds like it may not be though... If the fuel tank is rusting out it must have rust in the typical places.
I've had great luck with Bar's radiator stop leak
Possibly already been suggested but what about trying one of the leak stop products? Nothing to loose I would think.
If they don't want to replace the head gasket, I would suggest trying adding a can of good "Stop Leak", they might get lucky.
Ivan, I like the fact that you kept in mind the value of the car compared to cost of repairs. I think your customer appreciates an honest appraisal of the cost of repairs compared to looking for the next vehicle. It was fun to hear the surprise in your voice when the car actually started up better following the torque of the head bolts. Video evidence of what is going on is a big plus. Thanks for Sharing!
Another possible cheap fix would be to get new head bolts & relpace sometimes they stretch especially in cold areas the change in temperature between summer & winter can have an effect on some heas bolts Cheers .
😂😂😂😂
I would try some sealant it usually works for several months
Zecol Mendtite is a staple in Subaru engines.
Came back to this video as my Lincoln town car does this exact thing. Unfortunately, I don’t have a borescope. Been like this several months…
If you have to when you put it back together use Honda Bond
Yep simplest things first, re-torque with a little over (5lbs.). Next, Stop Leak. If the car is in good shape, head gasket or re-engine.
Nice video and trying to save the customer some money on an old car. Hopefully it buys them some more time to make a planned financial decision instead of being put on the spot.
Subaru has a cooling system conditioner, SUBARU Cooling System Conditioner SOA635071, for the 2000 to 2003 2.5L engines due to head gasket leaks. Any cooling system flush/replacement or every 3 years.
I had a 2001 Outback 2.5L. Head gaskets replaced by dealer then used the conditioner for another 170,000 miles with no problem until it was sold.
that milleage throw in some stop leak cant hurt
Nothing to lose, put some radiator stop leak in the anti-freeze.
Ivan, what about a leak seal additive to seal the leaks.
Why is it if something is designed to be sealed, it will leak yet if something is designed with a small hole, it will block up? God has a sense of humour.
Cool love Subaru!😄😁🙂😀
The felpro mls usually lasts 4 or 5 years they used to be good not anymore and I always torque the head bolts till they bottom out.
Try the head gasket in a bottle. Sometimes they do work.
Hi, have you heard of steel seal, amazing iv used if a few times over the years, cheap fix for an old engine. I used it on a shogun was still in when I scraped it about 5 years later because of the body, engine still ran good.