Ford Parts Cannon MISFIRE (Why you NEED a Scope!)
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- čas přidán 14. 02. 2023
- This 2008 Lincoln MKX V6 was brought to a local shop for a misfire complaint.
Customer brought a box of new coils and plugs for the shop to install...
Guess what...DIDN'T FIX IT!
Shop then installed 2 new fuel injectors....STILL MISFIRING!
Let's do an actual DIAGNOSIS to pinpoint the root cause of the misfire. You can see how an oscilloscope is the ONLY way to make an efficient, guaranteed diagnosis in this case.
IVAN'S PICO WAVEWORMS:
drive.google.com/drive/folder...
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www.amazon.com/dp/B08SWH2KP4?... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
This exactly happen to me at the Ford shop where I work. Error P0302 another diagnostician changed twice coils twice spark plugs and twice injectors Ford Explorer failed to fix problems and gave it to me, in a second with a scope I knew it was just PCM. There are no professionals today, they don't even know how to read English, and not thinking. I tell everyone 1000 times: You don't know what the problem is, better don't change anything, give it to someone else to fix it. Greetings from Israel. Thank you Ivan, if i visit USA, i will come to meet you for 5 minutes for coffe, i am a big FAN:)
It would not make any difference what language the "tech" spoke. The scan tool can be used with any language.
The scan tool clearly indicates the problem area.
@@thevictim2072 i can fix cars i spanish
. Parts changers.
I diagnostic vehicle in Spanish and English, I speak universal language (automotive)
I speak Dine. I just talk to the car to fix it. No parts or scope needed.
Your scope content is helping out tons of good techs. Please do more tutorials on scoping..
Agreed. Scoping is a must these days. Just this Monday I had a co-worker ask me about a misfire on a Chrysler. I told him to scope all the injectors and the coils to at least rule out some preliminary fault source. He pulled the oil cap and saw oil/water mix and called a faulty engine. I knew better than this but I'm not the shop foreman. So at that point it was out of my hands. But I know he was looking for anything else it could be because scoping the related components meant not knowing what to do or how to do it. So instead of taking the opportunity to learn. Her went with a guess. The customer declined so the outcome never happened. Point being that a lot of techs still don't know how to use a scope and even if you offer to teach they're not interested.
Caused by being taught by the same mindset /shop owners
Nice shout-out to Automotive Diagnostics and Programming; he does incredible work with the component repairs. I’m learning a lot watching both your channels…
www.youtube.com/@autodiagprogramming/videos Here's a link
Great and quick diagnostic, Ivan! Scope did the trick. Of course, experience pointed you in the right direction from the beginning. Repairing automotive electronics is getting more and more necessary, as replacements get scarce. Jake is very good at it - I subscribed to his channel a while back.
I'm always learning something with your content. Good stuff
Wow, not replacing the spark plugs can cause pcm to fail? Damn. I never seen those happen. But God to know doing timely maintenance is important to do to prevent the driver to fail!! Great video Ivan. You're right a scope is important to find the fault!
It's bad design and probably designed on purpose to break.
Ivan, I've seen this scope pattern before, unfortunately, on my car. I appreciate your process which I found very efficient and thorough. I also appreciate your inclusion of your PICO scope patterns. I've not purchased a PICO scope yet but feel very comfortable with that tool because of your videos and the data you've included with it. Soon I'm sure. Thanks for Sharing!
If looking for a good scope, keep the name micsig in mind, especially the SATO1004 PLUS (AKA SATO1104)
@@thesmartguy3523 I bought the Thinktool scope that works with my Thinktool Pros and I believe it uses Micsig software since the screens look very much alike and they both have a lot of the same functions. The Micsig is a better deal since it's cheaper and is a stand alone product whereas the Thinktool scope hooks up to the scanner and you use it's screen to display the info.
@@thesmartguy3523 Thanks, I will.
Good Job Ivan.
Morning Ivan...PHD on the case again, scope time!!
Always confirm, dont guess. Excellent diag as always 👍
Thank you. Another valuable lesson. 🍎
That is one thing I have never had an issue with; a misfire. Oh wait! My car doesn't have COP. I would think component level repair would come naturally to you, Ivan and I would have no problem bringing you components to repair. I think my 966 still has a distributor. I wonder again why they didn't just bring it to you to start with.....Great video!
Thank you for the engine computer critique.
That was an easy one! I can't believe a shop couldn't figure that out. It blows my mind.
Ford's weak link for years was electrical. Now it's back to haunt them.
Good one Ivan!
Each brand has their weaknesses... 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics especially Eurotrash, eh Ivan??! ;-)
@@rafflesnh Euro special coming up this weekend 😄
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I can't wait! 😀
Great stuff.
Thanks Ivan!
I think the right parts were changed but for the wrong reasons. If #1 coil shorted out, the others were probably not far behind and those plugs had serious miles on them. It's too bad the owner hadn't replaced those parts, say, about 20k miles ago. As usual, Ivan. Another good informative video.
i agree!! put the circuit driver inside the coil assembly... and, as you say, it's only a transistor. Coil IS in a HOT ENVIRONMENT, though.
Had one of these come to me with same issue a day after watching this video, went straight to checking the pcm. fast easy diag, thanks Ivan!
Did make me wonder if pcm would ever shut off control for an ignition coil like they can for injectors?
Everybody needs a scope!
I bought a Ford last year. Dammit, I should’ve bought another Toyota instead, great video Ivan ,I’m going to change my spark plugs
Nice example there Ivan. Just remember next time that you need to use an attenuator to protect your scope when testing coil primary voltage.
Yeah that's a good idea for sure. Love my PicoScope!
Ford Australia when they were manufacturing cars in Australia went to a similar direct fire ignition system to what the 3.8 litre Holden/Buick V6 engine was fitted with except the 3 driver transistors were in the computer whereas GM had fitted the ignition coil driver transistor."motherboard" into the ignition coil pack.
Ford started doing it that way in the mid 1990's in the EF Falcon but they reverted back to the previous distributor ignition system which was fitted into the EA-ED Falcon into the next model - the EL Falcon.
Too many EF Falcon taxis were coming in for ignition coil replacement under warranty because the ignition coils got cooked underneath the inlet manifold whereas the Buick (Holden) V6 engine which was mounted in rear wheel drive configuration in the Holden VN-VY Commodores (1988-2004 models) were mounted at the front of the car where the air cooled down the ignition coils.
Ford Australia decided to refit the EF Falcon ignition system into the AU Falcon in 1998 while it was a different design of car the same problem still arose - cooked ignition coils.
They revised that ignition coil in the series 2 AU Falcon but I don't know if that fixed the problem,by 2000 they built the DOHC naturally aspirated &; turbocharged "Barra" 4 litre DOHC powered 4 litre BA Falcon which suffered from failing ignition coils which were the Bosch/Motorcraft "pencil" type of coil (×6) which usually failed by 100,000 kilometres or 60,000 miles.
Maybe because it was a big inline six the ignition coils got too hot,I don't know but my brothers old friend fixedl his BF Falcon station wagon up by replacing all of the ignition coils & spark plugs because the engine was only running on 2 cylinders.
Yes, being an electrician makes it easier to understand & find faults in an EFI car but I upset a mechanic on Quora who said that I didn't know what I was talking about when I had a P0327 knock sensor code, a P0171 & P0174 code which was the cause of the check engine symbol turning on & off in my car.
I had that go out whenever I would blip the throttle because I had low fuel pressure cause the lean codes but it would only turn on at idle or low speed - it was caused by a bad fuel pressure regulator !
Back in the Navy, we had a cat on the gunline named Misfire, he was neutered hence the firearm reference.
Easy my friend... from Peru 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Clear diag! Its not the fix but i would have recommend to change the coils and plugs anyway before installing the repaired pcm. I hope the owner wants to go ahead with the repair or the money on those parts was wasted.
Hey Dan! All new coils and plugs and 2 injectors replaced before I looked at it ;)
Thank You
Brilliant.
the hantek scope 1008c costed be about 120 bucks and does everything needed
Ivan, thanks for referring Jake's channel. It makes sense that someone could repair the ECM in one of these if it's a common problem and who knows - it may be as easy as replacing a transistor. It's a terrible design by Ford but then again it can be avoided with some preventive maintenance. This was one of those cases where you saw the patient and immediately knew what was wrong with him based on experience.
In the old days high resistance in plugs or wires would kill the thick film module screwed to the distributor.
Good video Ivan.
This is the same engine as my 2010 ford edge, I changed the plugs at 80K.
Thanks.
Hate it when they fail and hold the ground on the coil and melt it. I’ve seen a couple that were a real pain to get all of the melted coil out of the hole. I’ve fixed one of these ecms by swapping the FET for one out of a donor but I had one that I couldn’t repair as it did too much damage to the board.
Awesome
Just purchased my scope and already helping me a lot on my diagnostics.
Unfortunely only Hanteks are affordable in Brazil, and they software is pure crap. Not being able to navigate throught the waveforms is just ridiculus.
Feb 15th. 6th LIKE 👍 of the month. 🤠🇺🇸
Nice 👍🏻
I believe that you have mentioned before, change your spark plugs near 100k or they will stress the coils to failure.
Just replaced my timing Chains and water pump on that thing CX9 Mazda has same engine. Took a long long time not fun.
Interesting. I got a 2010 MKZ from a friend mechanic who got it from a customer. it had 210k miles on it. front suspension bushing was squeaking wd40 gel lube resolved that lol. otherise car seemed fine. I immediately did plugs on it and realized they were the originals! they almost had nothing left on them! luckily no misfires however I found why no one wanted it. the torque converter was acting up. the usual bs for a ford. i downed the price to $500 assuming the tranny would have to come out eventually. I just added shudder fix which has mostly in control. fluid was recently changed by friend. I gave car to my daughter who passed it to another family member. 3 years later the thing is still going. I have no clue how or why. the original owner Im pretty sure all they did was oil changes. I assume the water pump is also ready to let go which on that engine is yeah lets water down the oil...
Engine run time would seem to be as important as is mileage. Is it a good idea to distinguish the two if the data is available? My F150 lists ERT.
Ivan; what type scope probes are you using? Inductive coupled, or back probing the pin terminals, or piercing the insulation on those conductors?
I'm surprised the new coil didn't short out again... I've seen these coils basically melt and you have to pry them out. If your not aware of the PCM issue's with these and you throw a new coil at it , you'll fry the new coil really quick.. I believe there's a TSB that states replace PCM, Spark plugs and all the coils. Updated design maybe, not sure
Good thing driver didn't fail in the ON state lol
Nice video and short to the point diagnosis. Now the question is, did they use good quality parts or cheap stuff off the internet?
Great question!
Have you ever considered a CZcams instruction series on what and how much a diy'er can do with diagnostics? I've learned a lot watching you but when it comes to scopes and high end scan tools, I run out of budget.
That is a big ask, No money in it! But I would love it.
You don't need an expensive pico scope kit like Ivan uses. Automotive applications are not demanding. An inexpensive handheld scope will get you started. A multi channel scope is best, but even a simple single channel scope will cover many use cases.
He does it all the time. He tells you how to hook up leads. How he use the wiring diagram. How to find the correct wires.
The tools he use. Because of him I purchased an updated Scanner.
I'm a Dyi mechanic.
My next purchase is a Pico scope with all of the attachments.
I'll show a neat basic 2 channel scope this weekend 👍😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics It will perhaps be the famous hscope
This is why pulling HT leads on a running engine to check which cylinder is misfiring is a bad idea, it really stresses the insulation within the coil and also stresses the coil driver which has to absorb all the energy from the coil.
Just let the spark jump to a grounded test light...or your body will become the ground haha
Maybe you can run the engine computer on a lower voltage (?). ...by some kind of converter or a simple resistor (?).
Peak power can do destroy a lot!
I'm thinking of getting the Micsig.. It already comes with the screen and seems to be at least as good as the Autel/ Snap integrated scopes. I would rather get a Pico, but I just can't justify the price... I may just get the Uscope you showed before with your battery tracker setup- and using your phone for the screen. I watched some of their other videos, and it looks like a pretty powerful setup for the price.
You can get 2 channel pico for couple hundred dollars
Go for the Migsic. It's a gun 🔫.
Nice diag is this common on all Ford coil over
What kind of test leads are those? They look like they are just clamping on and not actually contacting the wires.
Had the same issue on a ford edge. I was furious. Coil or plug failed, and the engine computer was shot. Ended up being $2.2k.
Ivan, can you tell me what it is about the Topdown charger maintainer that justifies the price tag? (in your opinion)
Hope you and your family are not affected by the recent desastrous derailment.
I sent a Ford pcm out to a company named Circuit medics they did an amazing job way cheaper than new pcm..
Expensive fix for worn spark plugs.
sweet
Great job Ivan. How do i get a hold of you? i have something for you to look at.
website :)
Good going! If they weren't going to use a scope, could they have used a "noid" light, or are those just for injectors?
Eh not very conclusive for such fast events, and if it doesn't flash then you still have to check power feed and control 👍
Iv fixed 2 or 3 of em. It still amazes me that people will just throw money away when they have no idea what they are doing. Its human nature
So if plugs hadn't been replaced you could fry your scope?
👍
Ivan the Terrible - no DTC is safe !!
MORE ,,,, MORE ,,,,,, MORE PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don’t know Y they just put a gear shift in it. How much cheaper would that be?
i’ll give you a like and a 😃💯 because I know it’s going to be a good video, but I will have to watch it later, because I am at work🤣
Ivan what would you buy if you can’t afford to buy the Picoscope? It’s north of $5000 . Just unaffordable for diy .
No attenuators?
Could this have been diagnosed with a Noid light and test light (for wiring integrity)?
slower and not as conclusive...but yes if you don't have a scope then scope on a rope is the next best thing :)
Moral of the story - change the PCM before firing the rest of the parts canon!
I have an older 2 chan HP scope that I've used. But I found that since the 2 bnc input "shells" are common to each other, I've been only able to use 1 channel at a time if, for example, one sig has a bias voltage and another is battery ground. I started getting confusing traces until I realized.
My question is, do automotive type scopes have totally separate channels, without the "common-ed" grnd inputs ? Hope this makes sense, Ivan could you address this sometime?
You can get balanced/differential probe leads, not cheap but an option for your bench scope to keep your grounds isolated.
The Pico 4425 does have isolated grounds which is really nice :)
Ivan doesn't live on fancy diagnostic tools, that is one thing I learned when I checked his website's about page.
Taking a motorbike with questionable reliability, a lot of tools for a long trip, and even having to do an engine overhaul by the side of the road?
Sorry, but at that time you have seriously graduated mechanical class.
just by your segment's title -- I'd agree that having/using an o'scope is UNAVOIDABLE. Car repair is heavily electronic and nothing is as valuable as a scope when troubleshooting such, although test lights are surprisingly valuable yet simple You repair guys (& dolls) are now electronic technicians too.
I have a friend that needs to replace an ABS module on a ford focus 2012. Does any know if the brakes need bleeding after module replacement and also does it need to be programmed to vin?
It depends on what you are replacing. The abs pump and module are bolted together on that car and you can either replace both of them as one unit, or do each individually. In most cases, both are done at the same time as one piece. Yes, you need to bleed the system, but you can't just bleed at the wheels. Air will be trapped inside the abs pump itself, so you need to have a scanner that has a service bleed function. This gets the air through the pump so you can then bleed the air out at the wheels. If your scan tool doesn't have a service bleed function, you can go into the PID's and manually open and close the valves inside the abs pump. However, unless you really know what you're doing, I wouldn't recommend doing it that way.
If you are replacing the module, it has to be programmed. This is normally done by connecting a scan tool to the car before you start the job, and transfer the programming on the current module to the scan tool. Once the new unit is installed, you program it the stored data on your scan tool. If the current module is broken and can't communicate with the scan tool, you need to go to Fords website and download what's called "as built data". This is the original programming that was put on the module at the factory. Once as built data is installed on the new module, you would then update it to current software if needed.
@@AT-wl9yq Thank you for taking the effort to let me know about this. I do have a ThinkTool mini that will do abs bleed I believe, but it's always a crapshoot with the module programming as I've seen on Ivan's videos with third party tools. Don't have the oem ford diag software of course. The old module is still functioning but the hill assist is throwing errors and abs lights on the car. The only code was U3000:48 abs control module supervision software error.
Ivan, Like the Fusion shifter you did, FORD has a better Idea, Don't make it simple, make it expensive. I've got a 2000 F-150, 33K so far so good.
Failures like this would not happen if people would perform the dreaded "preventative maintenance" to the vehicle. In my opinion, no vehicle will reach 100k on spark plugs. It's a commonly overstated number by vehicle manufacturers across the board. I would say 60k-70k at most for spark plugs. Also, when changing plugs, change the ignition coil boots too if they are replaceable separately. They are commonly overlooked when doing a tune up.
Iridium plugs will easily go 200k ;)
@Ivan - Excellent tutorial. The use/proper use of a scope would seem prudent and certainly definitive. Just a few questions: in lieu of a scope - (1) Continuity of coil wires to/from coil (DVM). (2) Continuity/resistance of coil itself. Isn't there a "filter", in the way of a capacitor (wouldn't a diode be best?), that prevents any errant current from going back to the computer if there's a short in the coil?
Have you ever worked on a car that was turned back into the dealer because of lemon laws? A video about trying to figure out the problem would be interesting.
hmmm not that I recall...
If I'm not looking at a visual representation of data, like a graph, I'm not seeing the data in a way that means anything
What's a good budget minded scope u would recommend Ivan?
Stay tuned for this weekend I'll show a cool 2-channel scope :)
its ashame how some places operate, I retired from another segment of the electronics industry and am temporarily working in the marine industry at a “top rated” dealership.
they are king of the parts cannon here, partly because of being technophobes and part because they make up to 100% on part sales.
dont get caught “wasting time” with a scope here, you’ll get canned.
Coil drivers in ECU need replacing
Can hardly wait for the joyful time Ivan is going to have with all this wave of ev cars.
We are going as techs where no one has gone before !!! I wonder how road salt will affect the EV's ?? Then the parts situation Dorman ??
@@Runco990 I only see a solid maybe 20 percent of the Automtive market being EV’s 20 percent if that yes I am keeping my ICE powered cars ! Still think hydrogen is the way to go but then you have the info structure to deal with.
Ha we'll cross that bridge soon enough 😄
If you didn't have a scope could you use a test light?
I'm not sure you'd be able to distinguish the missing blink from a cranking voltage surge.
I use scope every morning and I didn’t see that. 😂
They circled the problem in blue on the front
I'm gonna have to have you come down to ride shotgun with me for a week, Ivan! You've been getting too many easy ones lately! LOL ;)
I've got a few 2022s and 2023s on my plate right now with no service info, minimal documentation, and outright bizarre issues, and I only get to poke at them in 20-minute bursts.
You work at a dealership?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I do diagnostics and ADAS calibrations for body shops all over North Alabama. My biggest challenges are being time, space and access limited, and very often not having access to factory data due to vehicles being so new.
Imagine showing up, being told a vague explanation of what the problem is by someone that doesn't have time to talk to you, then you have at most 45 minutes (usually more like 20 minutes) to figure it out before the car gets yanked away to the next phase, knowing that it already has an appointment at the dealership for an HVAC recharge or something similar. You also can't do any disassembly to chase harnesses or do pinpoint component testing. :D
I need to start filming some of the problems I come across; you wouldn't believe the insanity I see almost daily...
@@rhkips oh yeah sounds like a different ballgame with the brand new cars haha
So is this design better/worse than the BMWs where they cook engine computers due to a loose/missing ground on an engine?
Eh they are both not good designs lol
My, my my
Gee those plugs are sure expense - and I ONLY got 100 K on them ! Isn't it cheaper to put in coils and an ECM to milk some more out of them ? LOL !
Electronic tech fir 20 yrs. Some of those sealed up things are a pain in the butt. LOL Unless you have the right stuff.
Does anyone have a link to Jake's website?
Automotive Diagnostics and Programming on CZcams 👍
ford cannon hey wow man car wont start change the wiper blade
Ford was awesome years ago GM was bad in 80s .
It's like they want you to buy a new car truck for $80+ .
We junked that same Lincoln was like new.
Dealer had it for months in no shop could get it running right.
Snap on scanner was useless on this .ECM was toasted also .
Could not find a ECM that worked used or OEM.
Expensive car .
I got $700 for CAts at least.
I just spent $3k on a Caterpillar ECM and dealer flashed for $750 .
Two "rebuilt " ECMs did not work on 3126 Diesel.
Wait until all the EVs come out ultra high tech Only Stealership can scan $$$$¢$$$
I am keeping my 1989 and 2003 Chevy pickup and van.
Ivan ,can you import some simple Soviet era cars trucks to America?
Replacing spark plugs - that's not a big deal in my book, they don't last forever and are mostly forgotten as a service and tune-up item these days.
How do these shops stay in business? Pretty basic diag.
It's a body shop! And they are very willing to learn! 🙂
No way with a LED test light you could spot a dead driver? How about a Span On Vantage graphing meter? Board level repair is an opening for some smart cookies given the greed of OEMs and their shit parts. Good video Ivan..Thx
A test light wouldn’t be able to handle the voltage coming from the driver in this particular setup, as it is well over 12v. I’m not sure if that meter could it or not, as I have never used one. For anything like this, I have a picoscope 2204a. It’s not the automotive version like Ivan uses, but once you learn how to use it, what settings and probes to use, you can get the same results. There are tons of videos on CZcams, as well as on Pico’s own forums, that you can learn from.
@Steven Washington how does it get well over 12 volts? I think your thinking the coil output is well over 12 volts. Not the pcm driver...
@@homesteadhaven2010 that would be my bad. My brain was elsewhere at that moment. Dealing with a customer trying to get warranty coverage. The whole intake was covered in gravel dust, and the original air filter, from 2014 was still in it and weighed probably 10 lbs, full of gravel dust.
@@homesteadhaven2010 That is what I was thinking. Ivan's scope was showing voltage well above a 100 volts or something was scaled wrong. Never heard control voltage that high before. Ivan..please explain.
In reality how do you order parts first and then see if it runs ok? I mean I do not know if this shop has a genie in a bottle but that seems a bit backward. PHAD (Ivan) has the solution. Stay Tuned people and learn from a Pro.