How Much Power Do You Really Need? | Mid Weight Vs Full Power EMTBs
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- čas přidán 29. 10. 2022
- The Trek Fuel EXe and the Rail are as different as an XC bike is to a downhill bike, and it's really important to understand this distinction. However whilst a DH bike can't climb as a cross-country bike can, both the Fuel EXe and the rail are similar in so many ways. They both love singletrack, have similar amounts of travel, and can both descend tough terrain at a similar speed. So what exactly is the difference? In this comparison, Steve Jones explains his views on the difference between the two bikes.
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Who you ride with is important too. As a smaller woman, I thought I wanted a lighter weight e-bike. That was until I tried a Rise. To keep up with my friends, I had to ride in higher settings than them and I ran out of battery before the end of the ride. It doesn’t feel light at all when your riding it with a dead battery.
Just switched from a full fat ebike to a light emtb, absolutely love it. Never needed the whole range or power of my previous bike. But both are great choices.
That’s a good view of Buttermere and Crummock Water one of my favourite valleys. Mind I live about 10 miles from that view.
It's beautiful up there, Peter! What a place to live! 👍
Not today it isn’t. Here on the coast we have howling south westerly gales. Up there on the fells it will be a lot worse. The ebike has not ventured out of the garage today, I don’t have mountain bike mines one of these low step Raleigh’s. I have in the past used my sons Specialise ebike on the runs in Whinlatter but I’m in my 70’s now and I find it hurts when I fall off and it hurts for a long time. I quite enjoy watching EMBN vids👍
In July this year I ventured over to the dark side by ditching my normal pedal power bike and buying a Specialized Turbo Levo SL Comp. It is a lower power output motor and in the decision making process I had to think long and hard about full fat or semi skimmed.
I am fit and ride twice a week if I can. I get bored easily as I ride on my own and there's only such much talking to myself I can stand but hey that's how it is here in SW France. But I ride for an hour or a bit more and do mainly hills, hills and back lanes with the odd off road track for good measure. Here's the rub. I almost never use the Turbo setting, sit mainly in the middle setting and never ever wish I had more power! It is an amazing piece of kit and I enjoy everything about it apart from the fact that the dropper post cable snapped inside two days and the on/off button is getting harder to press.
I love the way it rewards my pedal input and always surprises me with my hill climbing efforts and torque. It's also very comfy and the grips are odd to look at but feel great.
I have the Trek Rail 9.8XT and it’s absolutely a blast to ride. It almost made me ride it every day ❤so yea big power is an essential to enjoy biking everyday.
I've had a Trek Rail 9.8 since seeing your review on tis earlier in the year & my fave bit of advice between getting a new one or last year's, you said, "Just spend the money & get one & get on with your life" best things I've ever spent money on & that includes my son :)
Just come off a fuel Ex 9.8 to a fuel Exe 9.7 it’s 34 degrees and 80 percent humidity at the moment in far North Queensland and wow I’m riding when I should be cowering in air con, I’d say proof of concept.
Yup it’s quiet and has enough power for me, if I wanted more power I’d just buy a 300 Exe KTM and be done with it.
Collide with badness all day love it 😁🤙
Thanks Steve, I had fun once, it was a wonderful experience, great video.
I like the idea of these mid power bikes because they look more like a normal bike and are quieter than a FF.
However I love my full fat ebike, I’m wrecked before the battery is flat, it goes wherever I’m capable of riding and I’m fit enough the next day to do it all over again.
I don’t really see any disadvantages of the extra 3kg of weight, I’ve got no intention of carrying it anywhere.
But it is not 3kg, is it? Most Rails weight way more than that top model.
Personally I could not care less if it looks like a normal mtb, I am on emtb and do not want to hide it, I would rather it looked different. Also the motor noise does not bother me at all, it is an emtb, not an Amish bike!
I think they both have their place. Places that are more feature filled, purpose built, with jumps, and fire road climbs or flatter switch backs the fuel ex-e will thrive. Big mountain stuff, or outback terrain the full emtb will do you well as you're not as worried about whipping and bonking jumps, roosting corners, as much as you picking line and plowing. Obviously both can do it all but that's the same with any bike. What's just where they stand out.
Agree with you, probably no disadvantage of 3, 4 5 or more kg
That's such a great point! Why would you want to compromise on power when making the switch to an e-bike? E-biking on a full-fat EMTB is great fun!
Think I'd go full fat, but as I would like to ride everything from xc to dirt jumps & DH, think I might like a smaller rear wheel to stop my back side getting buzzed 🫣 - will be testing some in '23
Love that wheelie turn
🔥
I could see why you might want the lighter bike up until the point you recommended getting a spare (£800?) battery for it - almost completely negating the weight difference between the two while you have a spare battery in your backpack…
I maxed out my cycle to work voucher and bought a tank - Cube Hybrid Reaction Race 625wh. 23.4kg before me or accessories, with wide 2.6’’ tyres. Not as manourable as the exe here, but just never runs out of gears and grunt uphill, tackles chunky downhills better than I do. Full power - max weight - max grunt all the way for me. Does 50-60km in turbo. Love it.
I thought they said it's locked at 25km/h!
@@Sir-KayYou can buy speed chip to unlock it. Volspeed 4 is a 45km/h unlock, while the Speedbox 3 is anywhere up to 99km/h, but it throws errors and you can’t just turn off your bike, you have to leave it to shut down by itself after 5 minutes. Volspeed you can just press off, and you don’t get the controller errors. 3 errors and you need to take it into the store to reset it.
@@MarioGoatse 99km/h are you trolling me now or what? I'm 115kg now how the hell is an engine and battery that small in ebikes going to catapult a big man that fast? maybe for a few seconds but, definitely not an entire ride.
@@Sir-Kay LMAO I get you, but you’re not actually going to go that fast, it’s just the limit that you can set before it cuts out. It’s just telling the motor don’t cut out the motor until XX speed. That’s all. You’re right, it doesn’t mean you can actually hit that speed.
@@Sir-KayI think he’s referring to km distance of battery range rather than km/h
Just bought a Orbea rise M10 and also got cube stereo hybrid. Quite different bikes in power and spec. I can see a acoustic MTB rider enjoying the 60nm more as its closer to a none assisted bike in feel. Full power is good for longer ride but to me either power motors is better than blowing out your arse up the hills!
How does the cube stero hybrid go? What model did you get? Thinking of picking one up.
non-assisted vs none
Great video Steve as usual. I love my Rail.
Thanks for watching, Romeo! We're you enjoyed! 👍
2:00 to skip the wittering and get to the matter at hand
😟
@@embn You now how it is, time is money and scripts benefit from an unrelenting editor. There's a lot of useful info but there's also needless chaff.
Bosch CX vs Bosch SX vs TQ HPR 50 would be really nice.
Full Power Motor vs Powerful Light Motor vs Weak Light Motor. If possible, with similarly sized batteries and then a range comparison with the highest level and a range comparison when all motors have been throttled to the TQ HPR 50 performance. And of course an uphill sprint test.
Please can you let me know where this was filmed. Stunning views. I’m guessing Lake District? But where exactly?
Dam you Trek for giving us choices 😊
Decisions decisions! 😂 Two great options!
Brought a trek rail 7 a month ago and love it on the trails I find touring mode more than enough with emtb climbing up the roads.could have gone exe if battery was a bit bigger but at 70kg I might have been ok.for what i do.$1,100 in NZ for range extender is to much
I feel the sweet spot would be in the middle of these two motors. That's why I opted for Bosch performance line with 65Nm motor. I don't feel like I need the full power of 85Nm, and I was afraid that 50Nm would not be enough for me.
I have a Cube with the performance line unit - a great motor indeed.
I'm 70, currently on a Giant Trance 29 in Utah in the Wasatch range. Our rides start at 6800 feet and climb, over 7 or 8 miles to around 10,000 feet - or various iterations, but it's a ridgeline ride. I don't imagine I put out much torque or power and really want an e-bike so that I can keep my heart rate at a suitable level! I'm not looking to ride an escalator up to come racing down. For me, I think something like a Pivot SL would be perfect. I expect I could get 30+ miles and 4000+ feet out of it in a lower assist mode. Does that sound about right? I don't think the Exe would have enough range.
The other thing I notice is that most of these rear suspension designs are essentially single pivot (regarding rear axle path). I'm so used to DW, Maestro, etc. for climbing comfort that I'm pretty much looking at Giant (too heavy) and a few others and once again ended up on Pivot's DW.
I suppose if I were a buffed out 35 year old expert downhiller, lots of power/weight would be perfect. I could use it as a downhill shuttle - boy, THOSE days are gone! It's a bit counterintuitive, but for an older rider, less power could be more appropriate. So in answer to "How much power do I need" I guess the answer for me is, not much - just range.
I was having a good look at the fuel exe at a local demo day this weekend, and they really do look the bee's knees but I think I'll stick with my focus sam2 6.8 👍 for now
They look and feel great to ride, don't they?! Maybe one day! 😁
muy buén review , tengo la rail 7 y es la mejor
whilst I like Trek and looked at their options, I went with the Specialized Kenevo SL Expert. It only has 35NM of torque so feels like you still get a workout riding but the power more than enough to assist me getting up hills. changing the bars, cranks and wheels (in Mullet mode) to carbon means my expert only weighs in at 18.7KG with pedals!! so I have a long travel enduro bike with a small weight penalty VS an analogue.... i call it my sem-E-Bike :-)
You can get that on a rail too, just leave it in eco mode
I’ve just bought a Kenevo SL.
The weight of a full power ebike killed the idea for me. I’ve ridden a mates Whyte few times and I noticed the weight especially on fu stuff like jumps and drops. The low power, low weight bikes are perfect for me; they look and feel like a normal bike to ride but have just enough assistance to take the sting out of the spin back to the top.
Another amazing Steve Jones video, he truly is the best mtb journalist around. I love his style and presentation. The bikes aren’t bad too…
full power all day ... 3kg difference is nothing really for an e-bike
Rail is on large frame 24.5 kg i work in a bike store and tested it
@@Flip_smcr I ride whyte e180 xl frame with 2.8 dhr front back I think it's about 26kg . Doesn't bother me :) that grip... 😉
100 💯 Full power all day as well
More like 6kg in reality.
That's a good argument! If 19kg already feels heavy for you, why not go the extra mile and get a full-fat EMTB?
Steve-apologies if you have answered this many times...what trail is this and where? Looks incredible.
Where was this filmed. These trails look mint.
the TQ is a dream, just want it with more reach and torque..!!
Make the TQ 65 with a slightly bigger battery and put it on the Trek Slash-E that has more rear travel next year.I luv my Rail (as a Clyde) but need stealth for North American all singletrack access. I'm waiting for Transition Relay Fazua60...more torque, bigger battery to easily swap out on the trail all at 10 lbs lighter than the Rail.🍻
That's what I was saying, I tried to tweet that to TREK. Slash-E SL. Same exact Ex-e design but with the slash geo/travel. 180/180 would be so ideal for this kind of bike. The Kenevo SL is the go to for that exact thing but I want the TQ and the sleeker bottom bracket... and I think it has more torque too.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ yeah, even if adds a little more size/weight to the TQ, it should manage excellent stealth features. Bottom line, the Fuel EX-E is a trail bike hoping to bring in the acoustic crowd unfamiliar with power, so it feels like crazy power even on climbs to nubs. The E-mtbers recognize it as weak sauce. It's like going from DD cup size gf (the Rail), then dropping to a BB cup gf (the Fuel). They both are fun to ride all day, but the DDs are more fun but can't play on every trail due to lack of at stealth. A true mid power would be 65-70 Nm like a nice heathy C cup gf. Still super fun, but now can play everywhere... Transition Relay?
@@tomcagle5324 crazy to think that my yamaha pw ebike has 70nm of torque nominal (80nm peak) and these low power ebikes are now catching up to it.
I've just got a 60 nm bike and in my local woods it more agile and did 19 miles one bar used ,got to test it in the hills next that be the real test..
another big difference is the system. Trek/TQ system was designed for MTB (like Spesh or Shimano) ! whereas Bosch engineers didn't see mtb rider from a mile ! no integration ! awful handlebar control, display which is easy to loose/destroy, no customisation.
What? All you said is absolute nonsense.
How is the Fuel a "fire road" climbing bike when it shares nearly the same geometry and travel (more in the front standard) than my Remedy, which was Treks Enduro series bike for 2015 and 2016?!
What country is this here? Iceland in the summer? 08:51 and 08:52 is my favorite scene with that music at that moment!
Hey! Would you say that Fuel EXE is suitable for more ”nature trails”, like technical XC? More like flatter landscape in the forest, not a big mountain or bike park.
Hey Klas, the Fuel Exe is greta in lots of places and should be viewed probably more in comparison with std Fuel in which case it offers another world of perfromance. Its greta on singletrack, double track climbs for sure. But importantly if you are lighter and have skills it can do everything the Rail can
It depends on how strong your legs are. I actually switched from full power back to analog now and really felt the weight of my 60lb fat ebike…. When I rode my friend’s exe, wow it’s so natural.
Yes it does for sure Fan!
Nothing to do with leg strength tbh
Unless your only physical outlet is riding a bike
Weightlifters legs are some of the strongest, but riding an analogue bike every day would impede recovery massively
having ridden "standard" emtb's, i would not buy one, having ridden a fuel ex e, i would..... the difference in ride experience is huge, a lightweight emtb is a help up a hill, riding the full power emtb is a different sport all together, one enhances the ride, one changes it altogether, the lightweight ones are the only kind i would entertain and thats before i get to the fun on descent....
have to agree here. riding a full power emtb is a mix between moto and mtb in terms of technique.
@@SimonBauer7They both have their advantages and use cases. If you want to be doing full MTB down a double black on Whistler, then a lightweight full sus regular bike is great. If you want to cruise and rip some trails and have fun without getting smashed, then an e-bike is great. I feel like they’re slightly different, but perfect in their own niche.
Great video as always... Where in the lakes are these trails please
Buttermere,Honister Pass
Thanks so much for the support, Shannon! 🙌
I ride a full fat ebike @25kilos I'm about 75kilos and fairly fit. Keen to understand what the range and altitude difference might be between the two bikes. I often end up heading out on eco to try and get as many downs in my ride, this to me feels like I'd be better with a lightweight ride? What are your thoughts @embn?
I’m not considering ditching my Rail 9.7 for a lighter duty eMTB until I get to the point that I’m climbing the steepest, most technical sections of trail in “eco” mode.
It sounds like the Rail is still the bike for you. Lightweight e-bikes will gradually become more powerful, so it's interesting to see what the future holds. 👍
I wonder if a 120 - 135 lb woman would prefer a small frame fuel exe or a rail? Does bike weight as a percentage of body weight matter?
Would you recommend the full power eMTB for an unfit heavy rider than the lightweight bike?
Yes.
When no derailleur transmission ?? Rohloff type
I usually take 4-5 hours trips through some flat and some hilly terrain, would the smaller battery last that long or do I need a 2nd batt?
4-5 hours on a MTB would translate to 2-3.5 hours on an EMTB, with roughly 20 miles of mixed terrain range plus 3000+ feet of climbing, more than that and you'd want a 2nd battery. An extremely strong/ fit and smaller MTB'er will get more range, generally if you're climbing you're looking at 2.5-3.5 hours ride time on a 750WH battery.
Did the Timmelsjoch (mountain Pass) from St Leonardo (close to Meran) and back down. 1900m elevation, 57km in total up and down, 3h:10min pure riding time. I think I had some 23% percent left on my 750Watt battery. Rode in trail because my analog XC buddy was going all Amish on me. Cube 140 action team.
@@z33r0now3 Amish .. lol
@@z33r0now3 That's helpful thanks, was thinking about Cube myself
@@vr_gamers8116 Very helpful, thanks!
There has never been a bad bike? All the bikes is always on top. Unlike car comparisons you never have winner/loser. When batteries are 700 wh its perfect. When its 320wh its perfect. 85 nm perfect. 50 nm perfect. Heavier bike more stable lighter bike more nimble. We all get that. Starting to feel you just do advertising for the bike companies
Could really have done with some real world examples, "a 60kg rider doing 500m of climbing could get 100km", or something...
I'm 190 and the trek rail 7 climbed all morning and still had some left for another ride in the evening. 30miles on turbo uphill maybe more
Does anyone know how many watts the ep8rs puts out on the orbea rise?
Orbea Rise M series (Carbon) light weight model with the Shimano EP8-RS Rider Synergy mid-drive motor (Orbea RS tuned), has 60nm of peak torque and 250 watts nominal output, and a 360 Watt capacity battery. (it's a great bike I love mine). Their alloy frame H Series, has a bigger 540 Watt hour capacity battery, but I think the motor has the same power output.
We want more power!! With low weight. And tons of range!!!!
why this bontrager wheels on the mountainbike always crack on tests ?
Brilliant
Cheers!
I thought the rail is about 23.5kg and the exe is 17kg, so that’s 6.5kg difference. Or is this skewed data from the internet? Cheers
Oh my days that Rail rear rim has taken a hit! dent city!!!
Rocketing uphill, any hill, that’s why I loving my full fat Turbo Levo. I also love the planted feeling on chunky downhills. Would love to see ebikes focus on durability vs weight.
I mean I don't mind them looking out for weight too as most bike carriers limit weight to 25kg per bike. I don't want to have 100% weight limit on it all the time so a lighter bike means less wear. Any modern bike from a reputable brand is more than durable enough to outlast its battery in most cases, stresstesting has come a long way.
@@Tobias611 agree, overall weight is important. Just suggesting that as you spend more you get same weight but with more durability (lighter non consumables offsetting more durable and possibly heavier consumables) - different upmarket strategy
There is really no better feeling, is there? Feeling planted going downhill is so fun and confidence-inspiring. Most EMTBs are pretty durable, but of course, there is always room for product development!
Awesome speaking voice. You should be doing audio books.
I subscribed today.
give me full power. i rode my grandpas ebike with a bosch active line which is similar to the fuel exe in terms of torque once on the road and no thanks. yes the exe is lighter of course but nothing beats power in my opinion.
How the weight difference is only 3kg with twice the battery capacity, way bigger motor and beefier fork and frame is beyond me, the fuel should be closer to the 15kg mark like the new scott ebike using the same motor/battery combo.
Would you guys recomend the orbea rise h15?
I love my h30 brilliant bike.
if you put extra battery to backpack, that 'bike' is no longer so lightweight :))))
Horses for courses! Go up a long super knarly technically demanding climb with both bikes and get back to us 😂
I go bigger to go fast on trails that would otherwise be boring. If I was still chasing downhill times then the lighter bike would be more in line with a normal bike. Heavier bike is just slower on aggressive downhill segments.
why not do a test with low battery, so you can see the difference, thanks
So, lighter weight , less torque emtbs are for people new to emtbs or beginners…or
The converter bike to get people on acoustics to transfer to an emtb?
The lighter weight eMTB makes sense for trail centers.
Light weight e-bikes are aimed at everyone riding acoustic MTBs. They provide a good bit of assistance to fire you back up to the trail head. On the other hand, a full fat EMTB is optimised for crazy technical climbs.
👍
🤘🏻💯
This is something else, not sure if humans can climb that on a regular mtb
ebike D. Attenborough 🙂
Gonna build one for 1.7k total 30% faster and no bulky frame just bulky battery
What's it pedal like over the limiter?
A proper training. On flat terrain (city) I am mostly above or slightly in the limiter zone, so I get a 130km range in turbo. When in the mountains on steep alpine uphills I rarely make it over the limiter intentionally: to get a good constant speed and grip in trailmode. Also to not get exhausted prematurely. Cube HPC 140 Action Team.
is it as bad as it used to be with bosch motors in the original first gen performace line days (the egg shaped ones)? havent ridden a new bosch. my Yamaha pw motor is easy to pedal above the limit (you pedal the weight of the bike though)
Give me Trek slash with tq motor and thats it for me.
your price tags and weights are wrong, please correct this.
You need 50 HP and 60ftlbs of torque! Plus 10 hours of battery life!😂
That 85 n.m. looks stronger than yamahas
Unlimited power is the way.
85 Nm converts to 62.7 pound-feet of torque in Freedom units. A 170 mm crank converts to 0.56 feet. Doing the arithmetic (62.7 pound-feet divided by 0.56 feet) gives 112 pounds. So the 85 Nm powerhouse of a motor generates as much torque as a 112 pound person standing on one pedal such as you do when climbing a steep hill. Yawn. The power difference is what will get you up the hill, or not.
well that motor is at the center of crank unlike the pedals so you can't magnify it.
@@DaBinChe Not sure what you mean by magnify it. An 85 Nm motor can apply 85 Nm of torque to the chain ring. A 112 pound person can apply 85 Nm of torque to the chain ring by standing on one pedal when the 170 mm crank arm is horizontal.
@@Acceleronics Your math is incorrect. The torque of the electric motor does not get amplify at the pedal
@@DaBinChe Your assumption is incorrect. My math is correct. My math applies to rider input, not motor input. A 112 lb rider standing on one pedal applies a max of 85 Nm to the chain ring. The same 85 Nm as an 85 Nm motor.
It is so tiring hearing comparisons of power differences followed immediately by citing torque figures. Please stop doing this, it contributes to the problem, not the solution.
16kg then we can talk.
Maybe one day! It's exciting to think about what the future holds! 👀
I’m old enough to remember when this channel wasn’t owned by manufacturers
Good for you. Want a free content? There you have it. They are not hiding it. What is the problem? No one forces you to watch it
I bet you're old enough to remember the great depression too.
Hey Allan! EMBN isn't owned by any bike manufacturers. We always have full control over what we say, even in videos with a paid promotion. Everything you see in this video is accurate information with Steve's honest thoughts. 👍
A Hub motor at 50Nm isn't the same as a mid drive 50Nm. the mid drive torque gets multiplied with drivetrain ratios. Therefore a 44T-11T combination suggests that you need 200Nm mid drive to compare with a 50Nm hub motor.
While this is true, it is also true that a a mid-drive using a 32T-42T combination only needs 38Nm and that's a FAR more likely gearing than 44T-11T on any MTB. What eMTB even has a 44T chainring?
Furthermore, you aren't even considering motor efficiency which is worse at very low RPMs (which would hurt the hub motor but not the mid-drive). Finally, a hub motor is heavy, is terrible for suspension performance and makes tire repairs difficult, all really bad characteristics for MTB. Indeed, a hub motor isn't the same as a mid-drive, it is much worse.
Also, do you realize how much power it takes to generate 50Nm in a hub motor at speeds where 44T-11T gearing is appropriate? At cadence 50, that would be about 17-18 mph, and would take about 1250 watts of electrical power. So double the peak power of these systems and at cutoff speed while at a cadence barely turnable by the rider. Some comparison you're offering here. Thumbs down.
@@craigsj be good to have a chat about the hub vs mid. No idea how to contact you though!
@@stevejones7956 Hi Steve, I'm honored! I could provide an email, SMS or WhatsApp. I am generally not on social media platforms.
@@craigjones9372 Hi Craig, great! I've messaged the team to see how we can get in touch.
@@stevejones7956 I have a public email address that I have posted in MTB forums in the past. I can post it here so that you can contact me privately.
the fuel exe wasn't able to get to the top of the mountain 👎, imagine pedaling 40lbs bike if the battery runs out of fuel
I need durable and reliable emtb not fun of power...
“The Trek Fuel EXE and the Trek Rail are as different as an XC bike and a downhill bike”
…”except that’s not true, and here’s a list explaining that they are actually very similar but with a couple of relatively small differences”
- EMBN 😂
orbea rise still the best
Where I'm from, it costs as about double the Trek Rail 5...in other words, two entry level cars, rather than one (although, obviously, both will take you places no car can, so it's a moot point!)
U own Hydro or Carbon?
How much power do you really need? none.
Who want 50nm? No one really.
Nice commercial
8:00 If you're going to quote price then say the damn price of what the two bikes are. This shit about prices start at blah blah is a total disservice. Do you need help reading their website of prices?
Don’t need any of that. Just ride your bike more and you won’t need an E-Bike
@@Bobby_Rib Nice, doesn’t prevent me from judging you.
@@Bobby_Rib until your battery runs out and your too out of shape from riding e-bikes to pedal it
@@Chops00 the battery will last way longer than you can ride a normal bike lol
@@afernadez2 correction, it will last long than YOU can ride a normal bike.
@@Chops00 yeah obviously
85NM -> 2 failures!
85 Nm -> correct
Natural power from your own two legs ..ditch the motorcycle..bought in the hype had a rail for while back on a real bike..so much more satisfying
Try that while peaking for a powerlifring meet
@@irfuel no its not stupid
It's just that some people's physical activity isn't limited to Riding a bike............
@@irfuel well since they've already introduced the bike there's no need
Now be gone pipsqueak
@@irfuel maybe you should go back to a pedal kart 😆
@@irfuel that much was abundantly clear
stop dumbing things down. beer is not a unit of measurement.
We definitely live in different worlds.
@@chucknoob7041 Thank God.
@@perspectivedetective2703
Ok, you milksop
@@chucknoob7041 where are you?
@@perspectivedetective2703
You first but in the US if that helps.
these bikes are not bicycles, they're motorcycles and are expensive as f. I'm sticking to my MTB bicycle.
worthless 15 minutes video saying nothing
170Nm middrive 😁
Where do you get 170 nm Torque 🧨
@@55mblindy
Built my own ebike using a CYC kit pushing 1500+ watts which translates to somewhere in the 170nm range.