Are Eight Switcher Video Inputs Enough for Professional Video Work?
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- čas přidán 8. 05. 2023
- The ATEM Television Studio HD8 and 4K8 switchers recently introduced by Blackmagic Design only have eight video inputs. Do these and other video switchers have enough inputs for the type of work you're doing? Let's discuss.
Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD8 - djp.li/tvshd8
Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD8 ISO - djp.li/tvshd8iso
Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio 4K8 - djp.li/tvs4k8
Blackmagic ATEM Constellation HD Switchers - djp.li/constellationhd
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Came to hear about the HD8 stayed for the camera placement guide
Yes would love to see a video dedicated to that
@@vidkid1067 Ditto!😁
Our flypack field production kit has a Ross Carbonite Solo (2-piece version) with 6 SDI inputs and 3 HDMI inputs, for a total of 9. And we rarely use all of them. Here's why...
1st, our graphics (Ross XPression) go through the switcher's media stores (with alpha). So they don't "take up inputs". BUT there is a huge compromise that the graphics are stills only, no lower animated 3rds. Some clients would care, and it could add some jazz, but it really honestly has never been a limiting factor for us. The same basic workflow is available with the Atem's media stores. It's not for every case for sure, but for lots of stuff it works great.
We typically work with 5 cameras: 2 manual & 3 PTZ robots. Though many shoots use less, some more. Our conference setup is normally 4: manual & PTZ at the back. Manual at the front on one side on a ped with wheels & wireless so it can move. PTZ on the other side up front for the cross.
For arts shows we often have more manual cameras, keeping the PTZs for special angles like on-stage, overhead, and the wide. Most is normally 8. Plus a lot of the arts shows we are doing are going to post, so we don't worry about titles live and just concentrate on a good solid line cut. Done lots of concerts with 3 - 5 cameras.
The reality is that the cost of additional cameras starts to raise the budget to larger mixers petty quick anyway if necessary.
But what about all the other sources?
Our normal setup for a conference is 1 laptop feed from the stage for a presenter to user their own. That comes in on our 6th SDI input when we need it.
And then we run 2 or 3 laptops at the control position, using the HDMI inputs on the switcher. These laptops run a mix of PowerPoints (with a presenter remote from the stage), Zoom, and video clip playback. At any one time we have an active machine or two, plus another with the next slide deck or Zoom presenter set up ready to go. This provides smooth transitions and a backup if a machine has a bad day. We are often driving the venue screen/s in addition to the stream/recording. etc. And Zoom is another output these days too...
The one thing we don't really do often is sports. But even there 8 or 9 inputs plus a few media stores would go a LONG way.
But, there are definitely times when a could use more inputs for extra stuff, but it really honestly just hasn't been a practical limiting factor for us yet.
What is a limiting factor with all of these small format switchers is the multiviewers. The standard 10 split only give you 8 windows plus Preview & Program. So that's often more of a pinch point for us: 5 cameras, 2 laptops, main CG is normally or view. But the 3rd laptop or extra titles or Aux outputs or other ME outputs and we wish for a 2nd multiviewer pretty quick.
You're completely right, we were really excited to hear the new switcher was being announced and it's great but were left disappointed with the lack of inputs as it's just not enough. We ended up going for a Constellation HD 2ME and 1ME advanced panel, we've racked it up with an Atem Extreme Iso SDI linked to 8 of the outputs and this does our iso recording and, if we want, hardware streaming. Also in the rack is a GLI router, 2X Mac minis for Powerpoint and control, 2X Hyperdeck Studio HD, a Multiview 4 to display all the multiviews on a large screen and 2X Smartviews. It's an absolute beast, so flexible and we put a lot of thought into maximising the best of the current Blackmagic range in a package that works for us.
You guys should make a video on your setup. Sounds really robust.
I definitely agree 10 is pretty much the minimum. You could get away with 8 in some scenarios by using ProPresenter with a deck link card to handle all video playback, graphics, lower thirds, etc. instead of separate graphics and video playback. That would only take 2 inputs for alpha and make all the scenarios you presented work except sports. Once you add an alpha keyed score bar that locks you to 4 camera inputs max with no room to grow. Maybe good for a high school but not for a professional video production company.
At proffessional world, in sporting events nobody uses just one switcher. there is always other switcher with camera angles which are rarely used and someone filters that angles when director needs. anyone really thinks GOPRO at top of the basket is on main switcher input? lol
hd8 + atem extreme is good enough for every event in the world
my tip is buy HDMI extreme for rarely used angles and also wireless cameras, hdmi cameras and transmiters are cheap, gopros and small cameras are also hdmis. convert exremes hdmi output to sdi, its just one input for your hd8, extra 8 source
@@lkptlst3256 No, I have never seen or heard of that. That is what multiple M/E switchers are for on large projects. A wireless system connected via HDMI and cascaded into another switcher is going to be so far out of sync of everything else, there is no way you could use that in an IMAG situation, or even a livestream only situation where you can see anyone talking, etc.
Also with the cost of an HD8 + ATEM Extreme you can afford the 40 input 4 M/E Constellation HD and an X Keys Control Surface.
100% agree with your thoughts when considering as a whole package, 2M/E would be great and I'd love an improved media pool, can live without, but the inputs are a hard limit. Many corporate, theatre / concert and streamed sporting events do need more than 8 inputs.
I think the ATEM Mini series is great for what it offers, in a compact format, although it's harder to deal with the audio side and as they've added larger models the same basic design, that applied to the original, is carried over.
But... when working in and offering video production it's a different scenario, as with audio and lighting control the channel / input / output count adds up.
100% on an vastly updated media pool!!!
I totally agree, I planned to use one of these to cast a relatively small esport venue, and I plan to max out the numbers of inputs kinda the same scenario as the convention you demonstrated in your video. It's a shame that a product with such capabilities only have this limited amount of inputs, the fact that this combines a panel and a switcher (plus supersource not present on the 1 m/e) is really interesting on paper, I might make it work but I'll need to plan really well how I'm going to bring my lower thirds and score graphics
I agree with you 100%. We’re just doing our church service and have a 1 M/E with 10 inputs and is almost out of space. We have 2 main cameras. CU and wide, 1 side camera close to stage, 1 POV cam for our organ keyboard, propresenter for graphic and lower-third (using alpha ie 2 more channels), 1 input for computer from stage for speakers who want to present from their own device, 1 input for zoom, 1 video playback input and I want to add a PTZ to cover stage plus an additional zoom input so we can have both zoom screens.
Great video! Agree 100%.
I feel like BMD is swinging and missing big this year. We're doing simple corporate stuff, but the ports you need just add up so fast that when putting together our new flypacks, we just went straight to the Constellation 4M/E. (But even that was a really hard decision to make, with a LOT of tradeoffs.)
Let start ticking them off. Cameras? Precisely as you said - two at the back, two on the sides.
Someone coming in from Teams or Zoom? 5 then. (And you're lucky it's not a panel!)
Oh, now you need an audience cam to feed the remote presenter? Best make it 6.
They're presenting from stage? Now you're at 7.
They're insisting on using their own laptops? Your spare at the FOH desk takes you up to 8, for when theirs inevitably shits the bed.
Video playback? 9 inputs.
Oh, you want graphics? Stills or silent stingers just not cutting it in 2023? Key and fill means it's 11 now...
Want to feed your encoder and master recorder back to the multiview for monitoring? That's 13.
I could add more. Returns from scopes, ISO recordings, et cetera to put in a multiviewer. But that's really bonus points.
Same story with outputs. Outputs to the encoders, recorders, stage monitors, big screen, clocks -- it adds up.
Besides which, how good an idea is it really to run it at 100% of capacity? BMD is rightly popular for a lot of things, but reliability and QA are not among them.
There ARE tricks you can use to keep inputs down. A computer with vMix _can_ handle graphics, video playback and even Teams in/out over 2 SDI outputs. (NDI from Teams to vMix, SDI out - tie it up in macros) If you feed the audience cam straight into that computer, too, you bring 5 inputs down to 2. Sacrifice your peace of mind and get rid of the second laptop, or try to check in on the recorder and encoder inputs directly, and you can _just_ squeeze by with 8 inputs. And hope nothing breaks.
I'm sure there's people out there thrilled with what they announced at NAB. To me it seems like a combination of a holding pattern and some weird pivots. But I'm now facing the prospect of dealing with a Constellation HD 4M/E that won't even be able to output a separate soundmix to MEs 2-4. So now I have to de-embed the sound from Teams, from my video playback and the presenter PCs, run them into our SQ-5, get a separate sound mix from there and re-embed it and resync it before it goes out to the stream encoder, first stage, second stage and Teams.
Is this a 2023 workflow?
If their hardware can't deal with separate audio mixes, couldn't they at least have implemented Dante support to keep the cabling down? Did they? Nope! In it's defence, it does have MADI in and out. Which I can't use since I only have 1 interface slot in my SQ-5 and it needs to be Dante for all the other stuff that's going on.
But some sources could certainly have been saved if they had implemented support for NDI. Even if it disabled an SDI port, bringing in, say, Teams directly would save both on the delay and the stability issues. But not only don't they have NDI support, what's up with their bizarre pivot to SMTPE 2110? I've barely met anyone who's worked with it and none of them have had anything nice to say.
you are 100% right. I agree with you. I would never go with less than 20 inputs...
The flypack I use for most of the events I cover uses only an 8 input switcher, but I also combine that with a multi-input video router for a bit more flexibility. I do agree that an 8 input switcher is not enough for most sports, at least not for adequate coverage. I've done it before, but only using four cameras on the game and a separate video router to be changing the aux inputs between video playback and instant replay sources as necessary.
For conferences, I typically use a four camera setup, similar to what is shown here, then two AUX sources from the video router, which can be the power point presentation source, video playback, live remotes, or any combination therof, and then that leaves me two channels for graphics key and fill.
When it comes to music and performance videos, I find six cameras is enough for the way I work- A wideshot camera and main close-up camera, a second close-up camera closer to the stage, a POV stage camera, a roving camera (which can also double as a 2nd POV stage camera most of the time) and a JIB camera. This leaves me two extra inputs again come from my video router and can be used for graphics and/or playback. Because most performances aren't combining a whole lot of graphics and playback close together, there is usually ample time to switch the router configuration for these things.
So, I do think for a lot of work, 8 inputs can be enough. And the BM Television Studio switchers have always been for more entry level productions. I don't think they were ever intended for such things as doing a full network quality sportscast.
Well said Doug. It's not uncommon to have 5 or 6 cameras in a sporting scenario and then you have instant replay, graphics with key and fill plus your scoreboard. I use a Constellation 1 M/E and have maxed out inputs from time to time
Thank you
Hello and thanks for nice video.
I brought one of these mixers a year ago and I’m quite happy about it. But I have a huge difficulty figuring out a way to connect a headset to the intercom plug on the back of the mixer. I’ve tried the sales company and other company’s who sell audio and video plugs, but nobody knows nothing… Do you have any idea or knowledge on which plug(s) to use for that? I would be very happy for your response in either way. If you also know if there is a special way to solder it that would be awesome. Thanks in advance 😀
RTS-style headsets work. I've used the Beyerdynamic DT-108 and DT-109 with the 5-pin XLR cable option, but those are far from the only options out there. I've also built my own adapters to convert the 5-pin XLR to a 3-pin XLR for micrphone and 1/4" TRS for the headphones as well.
Feels a tad intentional to sell their higher end stuff while
keeping the price somewhat low 😅 (also remember cut page sync bin can only see 9 clips), at that I think it dose still fill a gap & begins their camera2cloud workflow, 8 being in the name dose make me think they might come out with more, tho it depends if they sell dosen't it 😅
Our church (about 1,000 weekly attendance) has the older TVS HD with 8 inputs and we easily max that out each week. ProPresenter key and fill leaves room for 6 cameras: 2 Manned, 1 PTZ, 1 Static Wide and 2 POVs. Being limited at 8 inputs has probably saved us money, because if we had room for em, we'd be tempted to buy more cameras ;-)
I think the big fella upstairs demands at least 10 inputs (preferably in 4K) before he'll even consider handing out eternal salvation tickets.
What's the chance BMD is making some of these switchers to be part of live stream software like OBS or Vmix? Some of these software can take some of the work out of graphic keying which opens up some slots, and you can have video playback as a scene or source for advertising and whatnot. That could be a theory
There is a nice workaround : we use the ATEM M/E 1 to do the camera cutting and we send the program out to a PC with VMIX with a Decklink 8K PRO and there we add lower thirds, powerpoint and videos into the production. So 8 camera inputs are enough in my opinion
But you've had to supplement it with additional equipment to make the workflow work for you. The switcher in and of itself doesn't have the capabilities to do what you need to do on its own. That's kind of my point.
@@djp_video Indeed ... that's correct
I use all 8 inputs on my ATEM Mini Extreme and I only use 3 cameras and a couple computers (also a PC with multiple video outs as inputs) plus my HyperDeck Studio 4K Pro with key and fill... It's crazy to me how quickly you go through inputs and I am absolutely not a professional in any sense of the word... I can only imagine how someone who actually does video for a living has to deal with that. They should should really offer a number of options beyond 8.
Can you share your thoughts on this movement from SDI to IP, Which will eliminate OB Trucks/ Vans? MGM Studio in the U.K. is using it to cover EPL.
In some scenarios it might be reducing the number of people on site, but it doesn't reduce the number of people that are required to work an event. And it still doesn't work that well for events that require a timely response to fast action like sports... the additional latency going over the Internet is significant and noticeable to the crew.
It's still going to be a while before Internet access which is fast enough to handle this is ubiquitous. Most of the venues I work in don't have enough bandwidth to be able to send more than a stream or two if high quality video is a necessity.
It might all be feasible and "normal" in the future, but that future is still a bit off.
Exactly my thoughts … Substract key fill replay and you are very limited in sport. Don’t mind paying a bit more for „separated“ systems that I can grow in and adapt. Mainly I‘m missing a iso recorder in their lineup that can record 4-6 channels with sdi loop through 19“ from factor maybe 10gbit network and user upgradeable detachable storage
Like give me a stable iso recorder for 1500eur and I‘m in like a Atem sdi iso without the mixer
and as just last Sunday as streaming ordination service started to wonder having kinda hybrid between Television Studio HD on my rack and this new HD8, let's call it HD6, with ISO recording and internal media players for stills and videos.
Preferably at affordable prize my scale business can buy without severe hick-ups. Control surface with physical buttons would be easy to teach helping hands I might have at hand.
Mostly my crew is just Me, Myself and I and real buttons saves lots of time and effort.
for small sport events, I use 4 cameras, then I had the two inputs (for alpha) of the external timing crew, then I had the two inputs (for alpha) of my lower thirds , then one input for replay then one input for videos... Oups that is too much ! they should have done 12 inputs !
Hey Doug, does the live-streaming function on the ATEM HD8 work better than the one on the WebPresenter?
I haven't had a chance to test it myself yet, but I have to believe it's the same encoding/streaming code that runs the Web Presenter, Studio Cameras, and ATEM Minis, all of which have the issue.
8 physical inputs may be enough if there's the possibility of 4 or 6 additional IP inputs like NDI. Not expected from blackmagic to go NDI, just thinking of Panasonic hybrid switchers.
I believe BMD is going to go straight to 2110 for IP-based video and not bother with compressed formats like NDI.
@@djp_videoit seems so
It feels like the name "HD8" implies future plans of switchers with other numbers of inputs. It doesn't make any sense to make an HD4, but maybe HD12 or HD16 are already in their minds? Considering that their other product lines have at least two different sizes, it makes sense that this one also gets some kind of variations, and maybe they just don't want to play all their cards at once.
I had the same thought when they announced the new line. It does seem silly to wait, though, as the extra inputs would be relatively simple to add and would make the product much more useful for a much wider range of users.
Doug you are one of the honest ones. This product is way over priced and incapable of other things.. thanmks
I don't think I'd personally use the word 'overpriced.' In my mind it's more of an 'under-inputted.' If it had just 2 or 4 more inputs and a couple more outputs it would be so much more useful.
@@djp_video over priced is my word --thanks
Hey Doug, what setup do you have for an instant replay?
I have two, both based on vMix with DeckLink 8K Pro cards. Here's a video on the portable version I use: czcams.com/video/B9xbc8rCWRg/video.html. The version in my trailer is similar, but in a full-size PC.
what software did you use to place camera on plan ?
My own Sketchpad app. It's available to CZcams Members and Patreon supporters contributing at $5 or more per month.
What's the slash cam used for? Never heard of that. Is it a beauty cam (fish lens typically) for stablishing shot?
It's another point of view. It's often used as an establishing wide shot, but more frequently for another angle of things happening on the court. It can often get shots that the other standard camera positions can't. But, with that said, it really only works if it's a camera with a long zoom capability. If it's only good for wide shots it isn't that useful.
Check this video... czcams.com/video/tl5RerbNm44/video.html
For regional NBA coverage we usually put a slash, on scaffolding court level, diagonally opposite of visiting team’s bench. (I usually do away shows) The slash gets people on the bench, including the head coach. It will also during action get player hero shots or whoever got the assist. It depends on what the director has tight getting. Plus other game coverage.
Normal NBA camera config,
1- game
2- tight
3- left handheld
4- right handheld
*- slash/ the number varies director by director, most of the time it’s 5 unless benches are opposite and then it’s 6
Additional cameras are brought in from home show and given various numbers, for example, on basket robos, beauty cams, press conference, NBA replay & referee cam.
Hmm I think of this in a different why. BlackMagic switchers in my eyes have never been built as a one size fits all system. I think its all about scaling up with the lower prices they have for the switchers they make. If you are a podcaster, youtuber, zoom...ext ext the a 8 input Mini, Extreme or iso will work just fine. If you are doing mind level events then you go with 1080p, 4k TV studio anything higher you go with the constellation.
I think BlackMagic has done a great job at targeting the different levels of needs when it comes to video production and pricing. I have several different builds from super small events with the mini extreme, mid level events with the 1080p/4k TV studio and large event with the 4k constellation and with the price of their gear I never felt that I was really stuck because there was always an easy option to go with if needed quickly.
I will say as I always say, STOP GIVING UPS LOOP OUTS!!!! Change all the loop outs to AUX on every switcher from now on. I am so happy they did that with the constellation and with the internal updown cross on every inputs, such a god send.
Black Magic have given us many options and I'm not against them, but they do seem to hold back and hold onto some concepts even when they release new products, and in my opinion the market would pay for the extra features they need - looking at the typical use case for a particular product, considering cost, size and overall features.
Take a look at their website. They're clearly targeting the type of person/use case that I'm addressing in this video for this product line. Every picture and nearly all of the text are aimed at these particular use cases. They're trying to sell it as a switcher made for these very situations.
FWIW, none of them include loop outputs. The HD versions have program outputs.
Can i connect a Atem television studio with a atem mini extrema to add more inputs?!
You can certainly cascade the output of one switcher into an input on another. This has a few downsides, though... you're having to control two switchers instead of just one, and any video source that has to pass through two switchers instead of one will be delayed by 2-3 extra frames so they won't be in sync with the sources that only go through one.
Waiting for the 20 input ATEM 2ME 4K
So am I. I'm starting to think that we might not see it.
@@djp_video we’re using the 2ME HD Constellation right now and it’s perfect for us but we would probably make the jump to a 4K model if it was available.
To your larger point though, we are a 6 camera set up but we use 2 key and 2 fill plus a about 4 more inputs so we can route various inputs to multi screen set ups. 12 inputs would be enough for us 20 is great with lots of extra room on a 6 camera set up.
I think you are missing 2 point of why its only 8 input, first the studio model when you look at their selling point its not for big sports event, its for small gig with a all in one( router, hdd, pro audio) kit like: small sport event, bar music event, podcast, news set, education... that are not intensive in graphic because you are usualy alone. The reason they dont put more is the fact that the sell of constalation would kreep. The studio serie is not made for the big sport event trailor, the reason that resolve is free our the studio is cheap vs adobe is because they are making money from hardware and not software, its why their business model are not give you more for free on harware but on software.
Take a look at their marketing pages for this switcher. They aren't trying to sell it to small events.
@djp_video from Blackmagic: The new ATEM Television Studio is a professional live production switcher built into a broadcast control panel so it can be used for high end work while being extremely portable. This means you can use it in small venues that don't have the access for equipment racks or broadcast van.
Music Venues and Clubs
Some of the most exciting venues, such as downstairs music venues or comedy clubs, are too small for racks of video equipment. However ATEM Television Studio can be carried into any venue! It’s also easy to pack up, even if the venue is still crowded.
🤔
I understand that. My biggest problem is with how they're marketing it. On the website, the first big picture shows it at a business conference. Then they show it in use in a broadcast van. They show it being used for live sporting events. They show it being used for online education. All of those applications are very often going to need more than eight inputs to do a basic job, when you factor in graphics and/or video playback.
Most of the customers that are going to be happy with a switcher with just eight inputs are more likely to be customers for the ATEM Mini/SDI Extreme. They'll look at this and balk at the 3x-4x higher price.
I just don't see this thing selling very well. It's too expensive for an 8-input switcher. At its price point it really needed 10 or 12.
I've seen one of these in the wild. It was in use by a local "production company" (and I have to put quotes around that title). At the event they were "producing," the cameras all had very different (and wildly wrong) white balance settings, were usually extremely overexposed, none of the camera operators could hold the camera steady (even on a tripod), and almost more often than not, they were showing something (or nothing) on the LED wall other than what was happening on screen. Prior to the event I asked the guy in charge what resolution and frame rate he was shooting so I could match it with my camera (I was hired by the client, they were hired by the venue to do IMAG, and the client was going to edit our combined footage together), and he stared at me like he had no idea what I was talking about. One of his camera operators had to chime in to tell me they were shooting 1080p60. But the guy in charge didn't know what I was talking about.
It said a lot to me about the type of customer that is likely to buy a product like this, because most people who understand what it is and do their research probably won't be interested. Spend a little more and you can get a Constellation HD with a control panel of your choice, 10 inputs, 6 outputs -- a vastly more capable combination. Or get an ATEM SDI Extreme with 95% of the functionality at 1/3 the price and save a ton of money. This model doesn't make sense to me.
Eight inputs is definitely not enough.
At proffessional world, in sporting events nobody uses just one switcher. there is always other switcher with camera angles which are rarely used and someone filters that angles when director needs. anyone really thinks GOPRO at top of the basket is on main switcher input? lol
hd8 + atem extreme is good enough for every event in the world
my tip is buy HDMI extreme for rarely used angles and also wireless cameras, hdmi cameras and transmiters are cheap, gopros and small cameras are also hdmis. convert exremes hdmi output to sdi, its just one input for your hd8, extra 8 source
I've worked in a LOT of professional video environments over more than two decades -- television studios, stadiums, theaters, OB trucks/vans, and I have never, ever seen cascading switchers.
In the scenarios you mentioned where you have assistant/associate TDs getting shots ready, it's still done on a single switcher. They might use routing switchers or routing within a switcher or an M/E to reduce the number of sources that the TD has to work with, but there is still just one single video switcher. And I've never seen a situation where just eight sources is enough for a "professional" workflow.
8 is laughable, especially if you want to run alpha channels with lower thirds and stingers, honestly 10 is the bare minimum but 20 should be the standard.
it's called television studio hd8 not stadium studio hd10
Take a look at their website and marketing material. It isn't being sold that way. And my concern is that a lot of people will see their marketing material and assume it is a good option for sports, conferences, concerts, education, and the like (even OB vans), because that is what Blackmagic Design is telling them.