Video Production for Live Projection (IMAG)...
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- čas přidán 30. 10. 2023
- That's Image Magnification, or sending a camera feed to projectors for an audience to see...
I helped out with an event recently where there were a few challenges to overcome with regard to IMAG. Let's talk about it.
This is the shorter version of a video available to CZcams Members and Patreon Supporters. The longer version adds discussions about the challenges of LED walls, the connections involved in this event, and how the confidence monitors were handled.
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BMD 1 M/E switchers aren't very versatile, but even an older model like the ATEM TV Studio HD can be coaxed into layering downstream overlays on both PGM and AUX outputs to support independent projector and webcast video streams. You have to forego Preview transitions, but many live events work fine with simple cuts between camera views and laptop presentations. The trick is to use an upstream key to isolate the Preview bus from the Program output, allowing you to route the Preview bus to the AUX output. Here's how:
In ATEM Software Control, turn on both ON AIR and KEY 1 buttons for USK1, and crop it offscreen so it's not masking the background (or use it to make a PiP window on PGM out). AUX out will now show what's selected (green) on the Preview bus, while PGM out shows what's selected (red) on the Program bus. You can then use the DSK ON AIR buttons to layer downstream keys on PGM out, and the DSK TIE buttons to layer downstream keys on AUX out. You can even layer a DSK on both PGM and AUX outs, by first enabling DSK ON AIR and then enabling the DSK TIE button.
In my experience, providing title and/or lower-thirds bars over webcast streams really helps remote viewers relate to live video footage. Onsite audiences don't usually need video embelishments since the event itself provides context. For most events, I'd much rather forego video transitions than make do without overlays.
Thank you for this information. I have an imag project coming up and really needed this info! I’m not a TD but this helps understand what the TD is up against! Thank youuu again!
Great content Doug. This channel is gold for live event producers.
Very familiar scenario! What I woukd do - since I always use atem 2 m/e in conjunction with Vmix - I'd just use vMix for a 3rd mix effect bus. In this case I'd probably switch led wall from vmix (because it's just graphics so delay isn't an issue) . But still - you arð absolutely right that it would normally require at least 2 operators - one for imag, the other for live stream.
Thanks again for your amazing content - it inspired me a lot when I was just starting out!
That is an incredible setup. I love it. I appreciate the challenge you mentioned too. Having those streamed seeing the same presentation on screen is definitely problematic without two program outs running. Also, having to deal with changes last minute is always fun. Haha Very cool to hear how you resolve those quickly. Man I would love to be a fly on the wall during your events. Very cool stuff, Doug.
Good point! You really needed to have tons of flexibility for that setup, totally understood why you did it the way you did.
I’ve been waiting for this video for years!
I actually had this balance problem last weekend, about which audience to accommodate, when I was producing a volleyball tournament. The arena had a big screen on the wall, and when I had everything already set up, they asked if they could get a program feed to put on the screen - which basically meant that what went to broadcast also went on the screen for the spectators and the players to see. And since some of the replays show that the refs made some questionable calls, the audience learned really quick to watch the replays on the screen and were booing when they did not agree with the call, and the players argued with the ref trying to make them watch the replays before making their final decision.
And you don't want the production to affect the game, since those replays weren't part of a challenge system, so they didn't affect the outcome of the ref's calls in any way. It was a really weird situation where I sensed that the ref's actually were hesitant to make some of the calls, just because of what was shown on the replays. But I still had to run them, since the feed was primarily for the tv audience. Would've been a lot better to send a replay free second M/E feed to the screen, but you just don't create a solution for that on the fly, when the tournament already started...
Not sure what equipment you had on hand, but you might have been able to just send an ISO of your game camera, since graphics might be hard to read on a jumbotron (depending on size)
@@camdenmounts1473 I have eight game cameras, so I would've been forced to build simultaneous camera switching into M/E 2 in order to have the same production without the replay layer. But I've added that to the list of things to prepare for the future, though. You never know when the next organizer is gonna ask...
Great Video! Thank you! :)
Very often I do that 3rd me routing video into vmix and having someone switch there.
Hey Doug, great video! We were inspired by you to purchase an X-Keys 80 to control our Atem M/E 2 Switcher. I was wondering which software you were using to control the X-Keys unit that you use? Thanks for your help and insight!
I have typically used JustMacros, but at this point I can't recommend it -- the software was abandoned a few years ago and hasn't been kept up to date. And doesn't work at all with ATEM Software version 9.0 and newer.
Another option is Central Control. But the X-Keys panels also work with Bitfocus Companion as well.
THANKS AGAIN!
I own a Blackmagic Television Studio HD which has the AUX out and I also now own an ATEM Mini Extreme ISO. I was thinking ABOUT selling the HD. (it’s collecting dust) Guess i’ll keep it. The MONENT I sell it, I will get an event with similar needs. IM NOT BUYING A 2ME DOUG!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Thanks for sharing your setup and making this video I liked it
It is funny because as I watched the video I was saying, get vMix Basic HD it's $60 and would plug that leak. VBHD is my AVC Swiss Army Knife.
I hopped in the comments to say that and saw vMix mentioned by another commenter. Great minds think alike, heheh.
vMix Basic HD to me is a tool every AVC person should have in their toolkit as it has so many different things it can do.
Total one time cost with a small mini PC and basic capture dongles is less than $250 and it pays for itself on the first gig or plugging the first production leak. And that tool will stay in your arsenal forever.
I use vMix where it makes sense. But the fact that it's software based and adds several frames of latency makes it kind of a non-starter for IMAG applications
@@djp_video 100% agreed about latency and IMAG. I was discussing the Stream Issue in the video where the people on Stream wanted a different look.
For that issue I would have plugged the hole with vMix as a stream has built in delay so that becomes a moot point. Also vMix has the ability to easily change what they would have seen and the cost is a one time minimal payment for something that can be used a variety of ways in the future.
Great tip!
Most meetings I do, the stream is usually only to teams or zoom. I like to use a 2 box super source to send to there and the recording, showing the presentation and the presenter. I do this on ME1.
To feed screens in the venue, I will use ME2, mostly for PP, video call return, and holding slides. I also have the output of ME1 fed into the mixer for when I need to show the live shot on the screens. (ME2)
Then using the top row of a stream deck for ME2, I find it handy to switch between the sources only needed in the venue, and the main program. I use the bottom row of the stream deck to switch ME1.
Hopefully I explained it correctly. 18:09
SuperSource would have been something I would have loved to do for the live stream to help with the "you're staying on the slides too long" issue, but the client specifically said that "they hate Picture-in-Picture, so don't do it." I think they had a bad experience with another company that didn't do it properly at some point, and there was no talking them down.
PiP on a projector usually doesn't make a lot of sense--- that would be specifically for recording or live streaming or closed circuit distribution.
@@djp_video agreed re pip on live screens. Definitely going to use the key hack.
Really enjoy your content.
Best regards.
@@djp_video SS on the projector screen works great for Zoom or Teams call when the remote presenter is using the same deck as the meeting. I would crop out the image of them in one box and the content on the other. I also wanted to add that you can send a super source to any AUX out. The 4ME Constellation has two SS.
Thank you Doug for so interesting videos! i have a suggestion for an other video : how to use streaming bridge and srt to get talkback between a distant (IP) blackmagic studio camera and an atem studio switcher hd8... Thank you!
BMD loaned me the TVS HD8 ISO and Studio Camerea 6K Pro a few months back, and based on the testing I did, I wouldn’t use them for that. It was really, really buggy.
@@djp_video thank you Doug!
Does the Atem allow you to assign multiple outputs to trigger tally? Or do you compromise and intentionally have the cameras, where tally is most important, in the "program ME" mix and use a non-tally'd output for the screens without tally lights on your non-camera sources?
On our Ross Carbonite, there's a configuration setting called "on air" where you can assign which outputs (ME and Aux) are considered on air and will therefore trigger tally. We drive our screens with Aux's set to tally on-air (and route an ME there when we rarely need anything beyond a cut), which means a camera/source will get tally when they are on any output, regardless how they get there. The camera operator can't tell from their tally light which output they are on, but it doesn't really matter as they just need to know that they are on some (or multiple) outputs.
We also typically put tally lights on our playback and computer sources in the control room also, which is particularly useful if we are running a 2nd PowerPoint machine as a standby: the one with the red light is the live one.
We do also call our screen cuts on intercom which helps the camera operators follow when we do breakaways like leaving the close-up camera on the screen while we go to a wide shot: "PPT on screen... Ready 2, 2 is up (on program). ... Program on screen. ... Ready 1, take 1. ... 1 on screen, ready 3 with the wide, take 3."
Blackmagic has really not done enough for controlling how Tally works. The tally indicator will be set for any source active on M/E 1, whether it be a direct source on the program bus itself, or through a keyer, or the SuperSource, or (I believe; though I'd need to confirm this) if Program from M/E 2 is used as the source for any of the above as well.
However, Blackmagic switchers do not set the tally indicator if a source is live on M/E 2, M/E 3, etc. and has no way to do so. It can be a significant problem.
Thank you Doug. Another great video. I do IMAG a lot and the customers always asks if they then also can have a recording of it. Then I have to explain them exactly what you told in your video. You explained it so well. What do you do to make the delay bearable/sellable?
The latency? It hasn’t been a huge issue. It’s about picking the right gear and settings to minimize it… cameras with minimal latency (which usually means using cameras designed for live production) set to the same video format as the switcher to avoid conversions, using a hardware switcher rather than one based on software, and using professional projectors rather than consumer models. But, if that isn’t enough, usually running everything at a higher frame rate (60 fps) shortens the latency as well.
yes thank you the latency is what I meant. Thanks for the tips. I wondered how you do it. You used Black magic switcher and sony camera's. I use atem switcher but I have to admit that probably most latency gets picked up at my camera's. Thank you for another great video @@djp_video
That's very common. I've found that a lot of people running ATEM switchers are using cameras whose primary designed use case isn't live production, where low latency output wasn't at the top of the list of production goals. And, as unfortunate as it is, those aren't usually well suited for productions requiring low latency like those requiring IMAG.
Yep latency was never in my mind when I first bought them :) @@djp_video
It's pretty gangsta to buy a panel like this and put your asset tag skewed on the back, Doug 😂
It was straight when I put it on. I'm pretty particular about that kind of thing. It must have slid in transit on a hot day. I transport this panel quite a bit, since I use it for both my trailer and flypack. I'll have to do something about that.
Was there any delay in the IMAG screens due to anything processing in the switcher?
Re-posting the response to a different comment, as it answers your question as well.
Latency can be a complicated thing. Each device in the chain will add some, with some adding more than others.
For the Sony PXW-Z150 cameras that I use, the output latency is about 2 frames. The connection to the switcher is over fiber (using SDI signaling), so any latency there is zero for all practical purposes.
The ATEM switcher will average a half a frame if the input signal doesn't have to be converted, a little more if it does... in my case the cameras were set to the exact same signal type as the switcher itself, so the input-to-output latency within the switcher was less than a frame.
There were two outputs from the switcher involved, one for the projectors and one for the LED wall, both were SDI, though one was fed over fiber, so again, negligible additioal latency. The projectors and LED wall do add some latency often 2+ frames, but in this case it seemed to be fairly low.
With this particular setup, the camera-to-screen latency seemed to be in about the 4 frame range. So it was visible, but not distracting. The audio system had some delay set on the center speakers so timing lined up with the outer drivers, but no additional delay to compensate for video processing.
HDMI does not add any noticeable latency in and of itself, though more "budget friendly" cameras that use HDMI (or cameras not specifically designed for live use) tend to have much longer latency than professional live production cameras that often have SDI. (For example, with my Z150s the latency is the same whether using SDI or HDMI.) With most modern SDI/HDMI converters, converting between formats typically adds much less than 1ms of latency, so nothing of any consequence there.
In most cases when I've seen latency be a significant issue, it's almost always the camera and projector doing it. Often consumer or cinema equipment rather than professional gear designed for live production.
One easy trick to reduce latency is to switch to a higher frame rate. We were shooting at 30 fps, but if the delay was too long we could have switched everything to 60 fps.
Thanks Doug. Any latency or lip-sync issues with IMAG? Was everything SDI based? Any tips for when you have HDMI feeds for IMAG and separate live audio.
Latency can be a complicated thing. Each device in the chain will add some, with some adding more than others.
For the Sony PXW-Z150 cameras that I use, the output latency is about 2 frames. The connection to the switcher is over fiber (using SDI signaling), so any latency there is zero for all practical purposes.
The ATEM switcher will average a half a frame if the input signal doesn't have to be converted, a little more if it does... in my case the cameras were set to the exact same signal type as the switcher itself, so the input-to-output latency within the switcher was less than a frame.
There were two outputs from the switcher involved, one for the projectors and one for the LED wall, both were SDI, though one was fed over fiber, so again, negligible additioal latency. The projectors and LED wall do add some latency often 2+ frames, but in this case it seemed to be fairly low.
With this particular setup, the camera-to-screen latency seemed to be in about the 4 frame range. So it was visible, but not distracting. The audio system had some delay set on the center speakers so timing lined up with the outer drivers, but no additional delay to compensate for video processing.
HDMI does not add any noticeable latency in and of itself, though more "budget friendly" cameras that use HDMI (or cameras not specifically designed for live use) tend to have much longer latency than professional live production cameras that often have SDI. (For example, with my Z150s the latency is the same whether using SDI or HDMI.) With most modern SDI/HDMI converters, converting between formats typically adds much less than 1ms of latency, so nothing of any consequence there.
In most cases when I've seen latency be a significant issue, it's almost always the camera and projector doing it. Often consumer or cinema equipment rather than professional gear designed for live production.
One easy trick to reduce latency is to switch to a higher frame rate. We were shooting at 30 fps, but if the delay was too long we could have switched everything to 60 fps.
@@djp_video Great feedback and tips. Much appreciated. 🙏
@@djp_videoOne local venue we work at has a common "long" layout that creates a good opportunity for placing our IMAG screens so that they are visible to audience about 70 to 100 feet back from the stage. Which is conveniently about 70 - 100ms (about 2-3 frames), of audio delay from the stage. Which pretty much matches our "lens to screen" latency. So that part of the live audience actually gets the show with correct lipsync. We like to save the screen/s at the stage for PowerPoint/graphics (which also sometimes feed to the back screens as appropriate.)
@djp_video, Hey Doug, what do you use to adjust the audio delay / sync in your setups?
My Yamaha mixers have delay capability on the aux and matrix outputs.
Hey Doug, I'm not sure if you made the video or not. But will you be able to talk about NDI Encoders? The ones we are most curious about are the BirdDog Flex 4k NDI Encoder and Decoders. I'm not sure if you've messed with them or not, but I think it might be a super cool thing to look into and maybe make a video about!
I havent't worked with NDI very much. And don't own any NDI capable hardware.
@djp_video Alright no worries! It is getting bigger and bigger in the professional side of broadcasting pretty fast, so I didn't know if you looked into any of it.
We have had really good experience with the Magewell NDI encoders and decoders. We also encode using Resolume. We feed them all into a "dry" Lan, basically a 10G switch with no outside influence. There is a noticeable delay when up against standard SDI sends though. In other words, we cannot mix and match on the projectors.
I think the newer Constellations can overlay a clock on Output 1 now.
Edit: Wrong. Just a countdown or countup.
Yes, but it is extremely limited in its capabilities.
Doug, can’t you feed 1 ME into the other so that you have ME1 Follow ME2 so you only have to hit one button to transition the same content on both destinations?
You can feed higher numbered M/Es into lower numbered M/Es, like 2 into 1. And this can be a workable solution in some situations. But it has one really significant limitation which makes it a deal-breaker for many scenarios -- and that is that only M/E 1 has downstream keyers. So if you need the DSK to create the content that might not work.
To go the other direction -- M/E 1 to M/E 2 you have to run a cable from a switcher output to a switcher input, which also adds additional latency.
Would using a supersource be a better solution?
To display picture-by- or picture-in-picture? Yes. But in this case our client was very insistent that we didn't do that. In their own words, they "hate" picture in picture.
Question. Why not set your dsk fill to "color" as white?
Because there is no "white" video source on ATEM switchers.
There are two color generators, and one of those can be set to white, but I'd be taking up one of the two color generators just for the key. By using black, and inverting it, I effectively get white, and I don't have to use one of the color generators.
Thanks for the response. Yes, was referring to the color generators. Understand why you might not want to give up a resource.@@djp_video
how to blackmagic software preset upload to advanced console ? 🙄🙄🙄🙄
Am ATEM preset? It doesn’t have that capability. It doesn’t have any meaningful amount of internal storage. You need a computer for that.
Yup, it´s an hack... I would call it wrong client briefing... If they want it cooler, rent an larger switcher and charge the customer. It´s simple as that. I know by myself that you have to deal with client budgets, but I´ve learned over the years you have the freedom to say "no, I´m not able to do this with the budget given" - so either they figure out where some money comes from to have what they want or they can´t have it. Someone who´s paying for an Ford can´t drive the Ferrari...
By the way: For emergencys like that, just buy an ATEM Mini and throw it in your bag. Doesn´t cost a lot of money and it gives you an full extra M/E. I always have one in my toolkit.
I had my ATEM SDI Extreme ISO there on standby... but trying to run both switchers at the same time would be tough. Using the DSK technique on a single panel would be feasible.
In terms of briefing the client, I wasn't involved in that... my role on this event was technical -- engineering it all, providing the equipment, and acting as TD. And the guy I was working with who was producing it tried to explain to the client what the down-sides would be to doing things with the same feed for projector and recording, but they felt like they knew better and ignored his advice -- that is, until 20 minutes into the first speaker. It was an ongoing discussion for some time. I had had several discussions with the producer about this very issue months ago when he was first in talks with them, but it seems that either something got lost in translation, or there was too much of an ego on the part of the client. Can't say which -- I wasn't involved in those discussions... but we've all already agreed that I will be moving forward.
They want us back next year, and now agree that budgeting more is a good idea. So if we had put our foot down and said, 'No, we can't produce a quality event on your budget' we wouldn't have gotten this job (which wasn't as low budget as I may have made it seem) or gained an ongoing client that really does seem to appreciate the quality of work and how much our crew cared about what we were doing.