Level 200+ Shredder - Endless Rogue Tower. GRAPHS GONE WILD???
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- čas přidán 5. 02. 2023
- Game: store.steampowered.com/app/18...
Rogue Tower is a tower defense game with roguelike elements and a continuously expanding path which you can influence. Unlock, build, upgrade, expand, defend.
#TowerDefense #RogueTower #roguelike - Hry
I approve at an infinite limit of the amount of math in this video!
pog
I oddly wanted to Sub based on the math. haha. I approve to I guess. got my vote.
my man did damage scalling graphs for indie game , love it
Nah keep doing the math its actually interesting.
love the addition of the maths. as an engineer i appreciate the dedication to talk through the maths
In addition to the non-linear progression of shredder damage/gold, the damage/level is also non-linear. First derivative is proportion to the current level, in addition to the fact that you won't exhaust the 200 hits before the first split. It might be worth investing in 3 shredders, each devoted to a different HP variant
getting the encampment just for their ability to reduce haste movementspeed by 40% is really good .. helps to slow down stuff especially the small units that spawns out from bosses and stronger units when their shield and armor breaks
It's not worth it when you have 90% slow. When you apply slow to the target their move speed is reduced by 90% even when they are hastened so you're making the haste reduction 90% less efficient. It takes way too many cards for such a bad pay off.
"Endless: 80"... U r the best. Thank u, now I see the light ahead...
at some point in my gaming career I liked doing math to play 'optimally', but I couldn't be bothered to go beyond linear functions. nice work!
I'm a student in applied mathematics major, and I'm very intrigued by the damage/gold of shredders. Decrease of 1 base damage per target was a known fact, but I never thought about upgrading to a level where it hits all targets before the first split
The breakdown of the damage charts was my favorite part @18:35! I already have the game in my steam cart because of your videos. At this point, I'm almost certain that you have a real referral code or link that we can use at checkout?
I'd love to see the vampire keeps run you mentioned in this vid! Love the math, fascinating that the shredders scale that way, and I never realized how valuable the frost tower slow %+ upgrades were
I've been studying for my final GED test, which is math, and I didn't expect a CZcams video from a gamer to help me understand graphing functions. Math is terribly difficult for me. Thank you.
22:54 Not me! I love the graphs, thank you for taking the time!
This is the most wholesome thing ever
I never learned much more than the absolute basics of the language of math but I have a vague understanding of what you explained and I appreciate the time and effort regardless.
Graphs were the best part!
I thought you were me and was freaked out
yess i was hoping for this concept once i heard about endless mode
nice information too, you pretty much need to be a math phd to excel at this game 😂
@ACRGames it's been a minute, I hope you're doing well. I saw your video and it inspired me to go back to try out a max shredder strategy on the new endless mode and I think the shredders can out-scale the monster upgrades infinitely. I have my game paused on level 95 right now and I feel like my setup will get me well past level 100.
To get a viable run I needed universities, I got 6 and in each one I bought about 60% in a single damage type. This means that in endless mode when 2% is subtracted each round the upgrades accumulate for a bit longer. I ended up with about +50 for each damage type before I sold the universities.
My setup is pretty simple, just a group of three obelisks and one lookout tower, then 3 groups of 15 or so shredders, and then 3 more obelisks with another lookout tower.
The first group of obelisks (farthest from the tower) are targeting only max shields to passively level shield dmg on the waves of mobs until Grim Oogie appears and they are responsible for taking down his shield.
The 3 groups of shredders all passively level on the waves of mobs. The shredders have no trouble killing all the mobs and at this point they will take off about a third of Grim Oogie's armor.
The final 3 obelisks don't get any passive leveling so I put all my gold into buying upgrades for them, about 35k between appearances of Oogie.
Of course everything is covered by frost keeps with 90% slow, but that's about it. The mobs gain 15% health/armor/shield per round but the passive leveling on the shredders seems to outpace this easily. On the first few rounds of endless this 15% increase is kind of brutal and I needed those university buffs to get past level 65, but in later levels the additional 15% makes almost no difference.
I! suspect the passive leveling will also outpace the increases to Oogie's health. If it does then a truly infinite run is possible. I might need to let my computer run for a couple more days to find out.
Anyway, take it easy, hope to see new videos from you soon :)
update: Windows decided to update itself so I didn't see how far that one would go. On a new map I had a good kill box where all the obelisks got free xp and I also got better luck with the universities (+60%) and got back to level 95. Left it running overnight and it's at level 137 and showing no signs of slowing down.
It does appear that shredders have almost certainly infinite damage :)
latest: died on level 145, wasn't watching so not sure what did me in. when I looked at level 137 there were individual cubes that seemed to get lucky and made it farther than halfway through the kill box. I had 250k of unspent gold so maybe next time I'll check every hour or so and spend the gold down...
got to round 204 over 3 days, rounds started to take well over 30 minutes to complete and the game was making my computer chug. Still unclear to me if shredders can outscale the monster upgrades and I suppose I'll never know.
Interesting. Thanks for commenting! Yeah endless is a little rough to play with university RNG and lag latter on.
Appreciate your commitment xD. I have a ~130 round video using monuments for single target and vamp lair for AOE but I think obelisks are the better choice.
Currently traveling so can't really edit videos very effectively. But will try and get video out in mid/late April once I'm back.
Curious how the 204 run went? Very impressive.
Yeah the lag is a real issue. Also not 100% sure but I believe low FPS actually nerfs your damage because the code for the towers shooting is frame rate dependent whereas the code for the enemies moving is in a FixedUpdate that does not depend on FPS.
@@ACRPlaysGames One thing to note is that I used the mod that delays the first split to get these good runs. So I cheated the RNG with that.
The run where I reached 204 was set up about the same as the others, a killbox with obelisks at the start and end and filled with shredders. I tried to spend as little as possible on upgrades, instead prioritizing building shredders to allow them to gain xp.
In this run I had added a bunch of other tower types to spice it up, but eventually deleted the encampments and radars because they did very little damage overall and I thought it would make the game run a bit faster.
I also added a bunch of lookout towers, in clusters with different target priorities, and they ended up doing heavy damage. Overall the frost keeps did 5% damage, shredders did 12%, lookout towers did 22%, and D.O.T.s did 47%. Frostkeeps and Lookout towers were tied for the lead in Dmg/g.
One interesting thing that happened was on level 162 - I noticed all the radar planes had disappeared and the those towers were no longer doing any damage. I'm not sure what caused this but I suspect it was either excessive landmine entities at the far end of the killbox (they REALLY would pile up over a 30 minute wave) or maybe the planes glitched out with the heavy lag combined with running at 3x speed.
I tried something you mentioned in another video about running with low mana. Between boss waves I'd delete enough mana banks to allow the monsters to reach farther into the killbox to level up more towers. However this required a lot of baby sitting and was risky but fun.
My university upgrades were at about 60 each again. I was thinking it might be possible to keep one university researching a single damage type indefinitely if there are at least 50 towers defending houses on the map, however I'm pretty sure this would not be viable in the long run because it costs so much gold.
Something odd I noticed was the effectiveness of the frost towers' slow. At the end the monster speed was +16.25, and yet while slowed by frost towers they would just barely crawl along. When not slowed they would easily outrun a shredder blade.
I noticed that when speeding up to 3x the frost towers definitely are less effective allowing the monsters to run much farther before getting slowed down. In this run that was mostly fine against the little monsters but I needed to run it at 1x speed for the boss waves. Ultimately I think this was what ended my run, I put it on 3x speed and set a timer to come back before the boss wave, but I think I just missed him sprinting to the tower on 3x speed :/ oh well, it was getting quite tedious to watch my computer struggle through the waves.
One question I don't know how to answer is whether the speedup also nerfs (or somehow buffs?) the xp gain of towers.
I was surprised the game didn't crash during this run, however it did crash after I clicked "return to menu" on the death screen.
Since then I've been unable to recreate these seemingly infinite runs, in about 15 attempts or so I only made it to level 90 once. Some things I've noticed are:
- the polygon monsters seem to be the only viable enemy type as the others easily overwhelm my shredders.
- continuing to spend on university upgrades for a little bit after level 45 seems to be good only up to some certain point - unsure what the optimal point is.
- level 65 seems to be a bottleneck in terms of difficulty. After this point the effects of increases to monster's life and speed seem to level off. Diminishing returns and all that.
- university upgrades seem to be a main factor for me getting past level 65
- beyond level 65 the number of splits seem to be the determining factor in how far the run will go.
My man is giving out the math classes in the form of gamer vids
Holy shit, are you a mathematician??? Do you do this kind of analysis for all of the games you play??
If so, I'm absolutely subscribing; I've been desperately looking for exactly this kind of nerdiness!!!!
subbed just for the math part. 10 / 10
Thanks for the videos.
i just noticed the background music, nice harpsichord!!!
Just wanted to add, the "everyone probably skipped this part" is the only part I watched twice. I love your explanations, they're very clear, the explanations are talked through very well, and also, I love how much you love it. Great content, hope to see more from you
Thanks! Appreciate the comment!
I've been struggling to get past 55 (best ever was 57). This was SO helpful!!
I noticed there was a "local maximum" for the towers. I wonder what would happen if you put many towers at this local maximum, as a very high levelled tower would likely get pierce-capped, and as you said, the number of shots fired becomes the limiting factor, which doesn't scale with level
The talk of how much endless-run benefit can come from universities has me also wondering what the optimal strategy there is. My first instinct in my earlier endless runs was to maintain their percentage over time, but I'm pretty sure that was an error. Part of me wonders how effective it would be to just just spend every spare bit of gold in levels 35-45 boosting them as high as possible and extend the decay time. Or, of course, to just hit a reasonable limit and then ignore them.
My highest university bonus was in one endless game i got in total HD 46, AD 39 and SD 40
I play RT mostly on my steam deck, the game chugs so much at this point its death by lag for me. You're right about the shredders and those splits were added with shredders in mind, but also a boost to things like sprayers.
Absolutely the obelisk was bad, and to be honest you'll get a lot further if you do a 'clean' research run, surely justifiable when aiming for the longest stretch.
It was a pretty nice gen though.
Vampire lairs are indeed slow, canons *can* be better but it takes the right map and you need the breaking shot, so the investment is high
With your graph you should show 2 shredders with the investment split between them for comparison as they're much more resilient to splitting, and you have less overkill. I wouldn't be shocked if there's a 40% or more improvement from splitting, and if that makes up for it. With the 'per tower' bonuses, I think 2 might outweigh 1 for perhaps a few hundred theoretical levels is my instinct.
Cant skip the mathematics can always learn more+ you deserve the full watch time
How does your game have pause/ fast forward? its missing for me ingame and i have latest version
Mod - have a video how to install here:
czcams.com/video/14eWqw-V-xU/video.html
really liked the math part lol
nice vid acr :)
Duuuuuude, ive been searching for someone who will explain math in this game. Thanks! But for normies you can make timestamps in your video, to make it easy to skip (or get back in case of research)
Could you have gotten more shredder value by making sure that first split isn't slowed at all until it hits the shredder area so the shredder is potentially able to start shotting down the long path?
march you get shafted later on endless because you gotta keep buffing the monsters, although i think maybe you can cheese it by not selecting all your upgrades before the wave ends, that way you get infinite upgrades and no downgrades (that could be a strategy), at least that's how it works with the upgrades, when you open a box before selecting all your upgrades, it lists all your positive choices before the bad ones... i would call it an exploit tho, and it would be pretty annoying having to see the menu all the time in your face... it would be a great test to see if it works, i'm pretty certain that's how it's coded (1 list of upgrades for you, and 1 list of upgrades for monsters, and you first empty your upgrade list before selecting from the monsters upgrade list, if that makes any sense)
Thanks for the video, i'm hoping to see more of them
Vampire towers seem pretty OP tbh, maybe try a run with them, they start "shooting" as soon as an enemy enters their range
Yeah I think you can cheese march. But you do get forced to start picking bad march cards if you don't cheese. I was hoping I could just spam minus gold later on since you go negative gold anyways..... But eventually you actually start running out of march cards and get forced to pick movespeed/slow ones which is big rip...
This is amazing! What software are you using for the graphs?
www.desmos.com/calculator
It does really nice quick plotting!
This is really neat! Thank you :)
Ive heard people trying to explain the percent ontop of percent thing so many times and its always so bad, you dont need a graph to explain it. Instead of thinking about how much something slows, think of how much movement speed the monster has left instead, with 60% slow it move at 40% speed, at 90% slow it just has 10% left, a quarter of the speed it had with 60% slow effect
Hey if shredders scale really well with levels why not have your main shredder as primary damage and then shredder spam as your "secondary" damage dealers?
Only been watching this game for a few days, but it also seems like having secondary shredders would have great synergy with the bleed crit upgrades as well.
Graphs are cool and I will not stand for slander of them
I'm surprised that more ppl don't get the haste reduction.
It's not worth it when you have 90% slow. When you apply slow to the target their move speed is reduced by 90% even when they are hastened so you're making the haste reduction 90% less efficient. It takes way too many cards for such a bad pay off.
are you sure you don't have a net gain in efficency with any tower if you take into consideration what they mainly counter? i feel like the problem come from you taking HP dmg and paragonating it to the "general use" basic tower.
Nice looking - but I keep wonder why you seem to think it is an unfair comparision that some towers have got upgrades with xp when yo ucompare costs.
I would call planning of getting xp an important factor when it comes to cost - so other getting bonuses for free is good playing by you and part of the comparision
Could you show us some tri lane wins?
Subbed for math. Am engineer.
How do you speed up the game?
desmos!
Are you a math major. I respect the effort you put into the math.
Nope - Computer Science, thanks!
Possibly I missed it, but why not more shredders?
how do you make it go faster?
You know what? I'm asking myself why you're first start talking about how disabling all these damage indicator pop-ups can boost the framerate quite a lot and then you just kept playing without disabling the numbers, torturing not only your pc with these slow framerates but also our eyes... at least for me it looks like you love playing "Rogue Tower - MSOffice PowerPoint Edition"...
How do you feel about using the mod that lets you control what level the first path split occurs? It defaults to level 20 but you can apparently change it (I haven't tried). For runs where you're talking about restarting if you get lots of early splits, it's kind of nice to skip some of that, but then you always know when it will first split so you're kinda skipping some RNG.
Say what you want about mAth, but I finally got where the quadruple lookout damage comes from
Why I don't have option to speedup the game? I got latest steam version... 🤔
I still not understand how Lookout, University and Haunted House work, what is Study and Taxes? I assume taxes mean more money?
Taxes on haunted houses determine how much gold each haunted house gives you every wave. The tax is a percentage of your max hp so scaling your hp increases the money they give.
*Example*: 20 max hp with 50% taxes gives you 10 gold per wave
Lookouts add their stats to all towers targeting the enemy its marked. The lookouts base damage gets added to the other towers base damage and the lookout health multiplier gets added to the other towers health multiplier and so on. Also the crit chance of the lookout gets added to the tower crit chance.
*Example*: a lookout has a base damage of 10 and a health multi of 3 and a ballista with 10 base damage and a health multi of 12 targets a marked enemy. This results in the ballista having a base damage of 20 and a health multi of 15 against the marked enemy.
Universities have a chance to permanently increase health, armor and shield multipliers on every tower by one each wave, the probability for each type is displayed when you click on them.
I am procrastinating on my homework.
@@wellshit9489 Dude, me too. I need to catch up on homework, but this game is too good...
@@wellshit9489 wow, thank for a very detail explain.
Oh the 200+ was shedder levels not levels survived
but really that dev will have to create anything else under a pseudonym because no1 will wanna go near anything he is running lol
Skip math? Never.
i didnt skip,,
LoL - I skip the gameplay and look for the parts where you math and table it out.
pure military grade copium, well said
Military copium
You invirgorated me into looking back into TD games unfortuantely Rogue tower is not it especially since all major development stopped before even making qol improvements please find more and post them.
For me just the issue with the terrain levels not having a black line was a game ender i don't wanna spend 5 years working out if my building is on the same level or not.
Obviously many other issues aside from that think a major one was the flexibility of the dev, only 2 reasons i can see. he is lazy or wants to make a spinoff with all the suggestions later. Really weak performance from him I will probably not purchase any developments I see him involved in and I'm glad i did not purchase this either.