Harvey MG-36 Compass Miter Gauge Accuracy Test
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- čas přidán 1. 02. 2022
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Tools used in this video:
Harvey MG-36 Compass Miter Gauge: www.harveywoodworking.com/pro...
Harvey is a sponsor of Stumpy Nubs Woodworking Journal
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I appreciate all your videos and the time you put into sharing your knowledge. I believe it was very difficult for Marc to say what he did. He said he felt bad. Please know it was not an attack on you or Harvey it was a review on the copy he received, and he said as much several times.
I felt a bit of anxiety from you during the video. Again it’s not a reflection on you. I have made many purchases from your recommendations and I would never hold you responsible for a bad experience.
Keep up the great work!
This was HUGELY stressful to make. I tried VERY hard not to sound critical of Marc because this video is not about him (and I totally understand why he felt as he did). But as the only CZcamsr directly sponsored by Harvey, his review directly affected me. People were wondering why I recommended this tool when he was so passionately opposed to it. Some were even questioning my integrity over it! I myself was wondering if something about the product had changed.- I was simply compelled to address those things to my viewers. And I had to be very sure I was up front about my relationship with the brand, because new viewers deserved to know that, as well. And I had to do my best to come across as objective (which is why I intentionally avoided giving opinions in the test section). Honestly if that new miter gauge I got would have been like Marc's I absolutely would have refused to recommend it. Harvey knows I will only support the products I personally use. Anyway, it was a mess but it had to be done. :)
@@StumpyNubs just finished watching your video and you came to the same conclusion as Marc about the distance of the block from the compass. However there's not mention about his woes with Harvey's support and their response to his inquiry about the issue, which was Marc's actual complaint.
@@JulianFoley, you might tone it down a bit. James wasn’t melodramatic or harassing…he was just very, very deliberate about not wanting to make this seem like a “takedown” of a “rival” channel that was badmouthing his sponsor. It’s like if a student got bad grades…some parents blame the teacher automatically, and some confront their kids to ask why their work was inferior; this video is definitely in the latter category. Similarly, Marc took pains to emphasize that his experience was his experience alone, and didn’t go around bashing Harvey as a whole, this tool in particular, or any particular user of the tool
@@StumpyNubs Hey James, Have you considered reaching out to Mark to see if you could do a collaborative "Harvey Miter Exchange" - in which you send your band new Harvey Miter to Mark and Mark sends you his preferred premium miter pick, and you both can do follow up comparisons?
@@Zharick.407 - This video was about what I could personally test and prove or disprove through actual cuts. There are lots of things about his review I did not address because this was not about his video. It was about my own experience. Marc shared his experience with his customer support agent and his points are valid. I take no issue with them. I will only say that many companies are struggling to keep up after two years of pandemic related labor shortages. But you are correct, a premium tool deserves premium service.
Marc’s review was perfectly timed. I’m in the market. After watching both videos, I’m going nowhere near Harvey. The older I get the more I appreciate customer service. What a shame.
this comment needs repeating for the people in the back!
My experience with their customer service was totally opposite...I called about a problem and within 30 minutes had a tracking # of the replacement. I'd base my opinion of Harvey off what a large number of peoples' experience have been with them.
There was a plaque on the wall in our customer service area that stuck with me. It said that a happy customer will tell a few friends, but an upset customer will tell the whole world. Harvey might want to take note of this.
great point. to underpin, a marketing class taught me that a happy customer may tell 2 but an angry customer will tell no less than 12.
The big, glaring problem here isn't that Marc got a bad sample but that Harvey didn't help him make it right when he reached out. Aftersales is a huge part of high end tools and Harvey dropped the ball on this one. It's the single most important aspect not touched upon in this video.
I can't speak to something that I wasn't involved in. Marc shared his experience and his points were valid. I take no issue with them. I will only say that many companies are struggling to keep up after two years of pandemic related labor shortages. But you are correct, a premium tool deserves premium service.
@@StumpyNubs No, I fully agree - but there's something to be said about his experience here vs your experience and why its both different and why there's such a difference in available communication with the company.
As in; who's experience am I most likely to mirror as a customer?
Of course a hypothetical me and other potential customers can only consider when buying stuff.
Thanks for the good tests of it though, it's always nice to see different experiences with a single product.
You folks are absolutely correct. Understand, I do not disagree in the slightest.
However, as you point out, it’s very likely that Marc and James got to talk to different folks when calling Harvey, and I’m almost certain that Marc didn’t call them and say “I have thousands of subscribers on CZcams; are you sure you want a black eye like this, or can I talk to someone more qualified?” I’m sure James didn’t call the celebrity help line either.
Depending on who you happen to talk to, you might get inferior customer service. Maybe you get the ONE GUY that’s a disagreeable jerk. Or maybe you get the ONE GUY with 25 years experience that watches you on CZcams. We have all gotten both of these folks on the phone. If you get the one ignorant jerk, hang up. Call back. If he answers, hang up again, and call back later (yes, I have done it). If you find a place with systemically poor customer service, you have found an oddity, and I recommend returning the product and buying something else. Not always, but very often you are the determining factor in the quality of customer service you accept. Find a person or a company that treats you right.
@@jasonm.7358 To be upfront (as I have been throughout this video) I have the ability to contact all my sponsors directly. Which is another reason I did not try to address a customer service situation I was not privy to. In this case, I contacted them, told then what I saw and asked what had changed about the tool. I then insisted they send me one of the new versions to test so I could determine if I would still recommend it. If I thought they would manipulate that, I wouldn't work with them. I didn't just find this brand yesterday. I have known them for two years and they do not operate that way.
@@StumpyNubs As well, I think Harvey has seen the review and double-checked their warehouse before sending you one. Them not knowing him personally may give a hint to the service they give regular folks.
Thanks for putiing this out. I, also, have 2 of these miter gauges and have never had an issue hitting the correct angles with the detents. One of them I bought on its own, the other came with the Harvey Alpha tablesaw I had purchased later.
That said, I too, have had issues with Harvey's customer service. So much so that about 3 weeks after getting their saw, and numerous attempts to get answers from customer service, I enquired about returning the saw (I didn't want to have this much money sunk in a tool that had no customer support) and got completely ghosted. To this day I cannot get any response from their customer service dept. I looked at legal remedies but realized the amount of time it would take to pursue those remedies would cost me more than the saw itself, so I dropped it. The issues I had with the saw were not dealbreakers themselves, but the lack of any real customer service is.
@Stumpy Nubs - Not to add fuel to the fire the inaccuracy of the indents was not the only thing Marc didn’t like about the gauge. He made several points on features he didn’t feel were as good as they should be on such a “premium” tool. Those were not addressed in your video. Oh, maybe that comes under opinion. In my opinion they don’t. Those issues were very obvious. The most disturbing point of Marc’s review is that Harvey made no attempt to remedy the situation. As someone who can’t afford to eat the cost of such problems in a tool like perhaps Marc can that’s totally unacceptable to me. There’s no excuse for that happening. Citing the pandemic doesn’t cut it. Harvey totally fell down on their obligations to their customer.
The gap on mine as shipped was 1/16th, the same as Marc's. Frankly, after his experience with CS, figured they just didn't care. This did prompt me to investigate further, and the 3 x 2.5mm hex bolts that hold the block in place do indeed have quite a bit of possible play, and I was able to move the block to their stated
I feel Marc, the Wood Whisperer, bent over backwards explaining how he arrived at his conclusions and really struggled with giving a poor grade to the Harvey Miter Gauge. If in fact he did get a bad gauge and others in the comment section did too, the review is correct. Both of these reviews are representing the customers' experience and both are valid...
Only the sponsored one had his reputation on the line and needed to know if the tool had been changed since he originally recommended it. I was clear and upfront about my relationship with the company near the beginning of the video so people can take that into consideration. I also intentionally avoided opinionated statements during the testing portion. I think everyone has the info they need to decide for themselves. :)
@@StumpyNubs your review was excellent and Mark's was made in good faith with stated caveats. You tried to say Mark's review was fine, but for some reason it felt like you were dissing him from the start. Personally, I think it would have been really cool if you two had worked together to figure out why your experiences were different and put out a collaborative video.
@@independent900 I can't help what people think they hear :)
@@independent900 I didn't get that idea from the video above. I did, however, wonder for a bit if the other reviewer had somehow received a knock-off/counterfeit, which turned out to not be the case.
@@MKRM27 I really don’t think that’s fair. It does not matter if James is sponsored by Harvey. If you watched this video he *demonstrated* the accuracy he could achieve and did so with a recently produced gauge. Did James’ sponsorship magically make him capable of cutting every angle accurately multiple times?
Clearly there is a difference in the gauges used by James and Mark. A lot of comments here point out that the uncertainty is a problem for them and that’s fair, as is the expectation for better customer service.
I think James did a great job with this video. If you watch his videos you can see his character and integrity. There’s no chance he intended to throw shade at Mark in any way. I don’t think James or Mark did ANYTHING wrong here and as members of the wood working community we should be happy to have people like them educating and thoughtfully sharing with us.
Well, I found the review of which you speak. Back to what I wrote earlier, this is a customer service issue which was an epic fail. I just went through the exercise of selecting my “forever saw” and came very close to buying a Harvey. But in the end I went with you-know-who because I truly value all my fingers, but also because it is a more mature company with superior customer support and support procedures. I think that is what we are seeing here.
I think this was a great, even handed response. My only concern is that sponsored channels (likely) get the cream of the crop in terms of the tools they are sent. I very much imagine that Harvey does extra quality control before sending any product to this channel, so reviews are less likely to be for the average "off the shelf" tool. And... customer support is going to be above average as well if its revealed that the requesting customer is a well known, influential reviewer.
In this case, I get the feeling Harvey didn't really know who Marc was and he got the standard treatment we all might expect---whereas they know who they sponsor and likely provided a bit more quality control when sending (and supporting) the tool to this channel. That always makes it hard to 100% translate the reviewer's experience to what I might expect.
I'd much prefer that, sure, sponsored channels get paid for "free" tools, but not "given" free tools. As a stated policy they should instead use that payment to order the tool anonymously and request support the same way. Otherwise, there's always that suspicion that, while nothing is being done dishonestly, the sponsored content creator is getting VIP treatment whether they requested it or not.
I am most disappointed with Harvey's response to Marc, not that one or two miter gauges got past quality control. I used to make musical instrument kits and one day a very frustrated customer called up and immediately starting complaining and accusing me of selling a bad product. I had to actually interrupt him to say, 'You are going to be happy at the end of this call.' He calmed down and told me what had happened. I gave him a solution that I would use but told him he could just send it back and I would just send him one already assembled if he wanted. I also said that if he used my solution but didn't like the appearance in a year or two, to just send it to me and I would send him a replacement. He was very happy and I never heard from him so he must have been happy with my solution. I would have thought Harvey would be very concerned and asked the experience level of the customer. Realizing that he was experienced, I would have thought Harvey would want to find out what was wrong so they could correct the issue if it really had gotten past quality control. Solving the problem for one customer could end up solving lots of problems down the road. Very short sighted of Harvey.
Great video. I take issue with one assertion: "It's possible...that somehow slipped past quality control...that happens even with high end tools." If I buy anything high end, my primary justification of the expense is perception of the producer's quality control. The promise that they have exerted extraordinary effort to ensure that every unit meets the advertised spec gives me confidence that I won't have to verify, I won't have to tune or tinker, and I certainly won't have to spend my time on a merry-go-round with customer service ( excellent or otherwise ). Eliminating these possibilities is exactly why I shell out more for a premium item; whether a dinner or a tool.
While you make a valid point. I do believe that due to volume of production, it will always be possible that a bad sample will slip past quality control.
I doubt a company is going to have a whole team of testers to test every produced unit when just one in a batch is sufficient. Save money on labor and can still have confidence in the tool.
To be honest, I’m unlikely to buy any “premium” miter gauges….but if I did, I would expect better customer service than Marc apparently received. His experience sounded like the response you get when you call Expedia.
Stubs vs Whisperer: the showdown woodworkers imagine excitedly like kids wondering who would win in a fight between Batman and Superman.
There's no telling who would win, but we know somebody's hotdog is going to end up on the SawStop...
Superman on the SawStop!
Gimme a break! These two gentlemen are at the top of their profession. They are not about to lower themselves to those standards. I think they both have mutual respect for each other, and I hope you're just joking with that comment. Sincerely, the MeatMaster86...cutting big parts into small parts since 1986. Mooooo!
@@meatmaster8636 yep, just a little humor.
I thought the superman vs batman comparison would have made that clear?
I want to start by saying that I have always enjoyed your videos and have found your clear, direct, and thorough approach extremely refreshing. I have learned much from you, particularly about shop safety, and have considered you to be a trustworthy source. But (you knew there was a "but" coming, didn't you), whenever a video aggressively promotes a particular brand or product, I become suspicious. I am intimately familiar with how internet marketing works, and I fully understand that you need to be compensated for your efforts. I have no objection to advertising, sponsorships, or affiliate links, provided that any such content is clearly disclosed and identified, something you typically do very well. There can be a fine line between offering an honest opinion and becoming a commercial shill. I am not going to name names, but we all know that there are those in this space (even some highly respected sources) who clearly and routinely cross that line. I honestly do not know if this video crossed that line, that will need to be judged over time in the context of your greater body of work, but I do know that it, as a minimum, brushed right up against it. I hope you accept this comment as it was intended, as a respectful opinion of my own.
p.s.; One additional thought ... had Harvey done the right thing and addressed Marc's problem with what is purported to be an anomalous "bad" example of their product, then there would have been no need for you to make this video. The fact that they did not address what was clearly an inferior example of their product and they left you in a position where you needed to defend them creates the fundamental question that caused me (and many others here) to make my own observation about this video. Of course, I will leave it to you to judge your own relationship with your sponsor.
I have recommended this tool in the past. People were asking me why I recommended a tool the performed so poorly in Marc's video. I wanted to know if it was an inherent problem with the new design, or a bad sample. So I tested one myself. I did not interject my personal opinions, I just made cuts and showed the results. I don't see that as aggressive marketing for a brand, I see that as going the extra mile to be sure a product I recommend is still a good product. I would want any sponsored CZcamsr to be as diligent and transparent.
There are two CZcamsrs I watch routinely because of the presentation and what I preceive to be genuine integrity in their comments. You and Marc. No need to apologize for differing, or even conflicting, opinions. Both of you guys do great work and provide an enormous amount of information which is much appreciated. Keep it up
Thanks for taking your recommendation of products so seriously and doing the extra work to verify the quality of a product that you stand behind.
I enjoy and sub to both of these channels. I was also surprised by Marc's experience with the tool and with Harvey's service after he brought up his issue with them. You don't just buy the product, you buy the customer service. I know COVID is a factor, but you can't let it be an excuse.
Yep - it was a reason - but not an excuse
You did a great job, and Marc did a great job. I really hope Harvey and my two favorite woodworking YTers can collaborate and get to the bottom of this. Honestly the WORST part of Marc's video was the bit about dealing with Harvey's helpdesk. Sadly, these days, we're all too familiar with "script based" customer support, but the fact that they didn't work through the problem to the point of an actually satisfactory solution for the customer gives me great pause. I hope, more than anything else, Harvey take THAT feedback to heart. No one expects perfection, but everyone expects quality support.
I’ve never heard of Harvey until y’all talked about them. Now I have a 4hp table saw (and miter gauge) from Harvey that I got in January 2022. Both miter gauge and saw are amazing! Thanks to you folks for bringing Harvey to my attention.
I appreciate these straight forward, no nonsense videos. It's not likely that I will be able to buy one of these any time soon, but I still appreciate the information. Thank you.
"The company says they rarely gets returns"
I guess that's what happens when someone with an obviously defective unit contacts customer service and gets told that there's no problem, they don't know how to tighten screws properly, and they're not doing a return. 🤣
Did he ask to return it? EDIT: I spoke to Marc and he did ask about a return, but was referred to another department (I disagree with the customer service rep doing that) and chose not to spend more time on it.
@@StumpyNubs proper remedies to defective products would be offered by customer service, not requested by the client. It isn't the the client's job to do customer service for the company is it?
I’m sure TWW was able to properly explain his issues to customer service. When adjustments didn’t fix it, one should not have to ask for a return….it should be offered before you could get the words out of your mouth. Tons of hobby woodworkers with deep pockets buy all sorts things. It’s good these two work nice for you but TWW isn’t the only bad review out there for similar reasons.
@@StumpyNubs He mentioned that he asked for return and was denied
Ale- He did not say that in his video at all. Go watch the video again... I have actually been speaking with Marc to learn more about what happened. What I do know is the rep referred Marc to a different department to discuss a return and Marc decided not to do that because he felt it was not worth the hassle. I do believe there was a real problem with the way the rep handled it , and I am working to collect more details. I just keep hearing in these comments that they refused a return and that is not the whole story, neither is it what Marc said in his video.
Imagine getting into woodworking last week and just doing a simple search on Miter gauges because the one I have for my Home Depot Ridgid table saw is trash; led me down a rabbit hole to this...😅
I really appreciate your integrity and the effort you go to for these videos!
I watched the video you are speaking of. The commentator even asked if someone has had other experiences to comment. He said that he couldn’t recommend on his limited experience. I appreciate your response to it too. Both are done tactfully and both were very informative.
Thanks for the follow up. I did purchase this gauge a while ago, though still haven’t used it as I am limited wood worker and it a monthly hobby at this point, based upon your recommendation. I questioned that decision after watching TWW review.
Harvey said they get very little return, but based upon TWW comments it sounds like they steer the conversation away from that as the company should had offered a replacement without TWW even having to ask.
I will break out the gauge and see if my has any issues, but hopefully not.
When he called their customer service, they should have shipped a new one out, no questions asked after he told them the issue. I think the problem here is poor quality control AND customer service. Save time and money and get the Incra 1000 HD.
That's the lesson here, imo. I have the SE and love it.
If you’re a jerk, a company and their customer service team is unlikely to go the extra mile for you. I’ve unfortunately had a significant amount of issues with a few products I’ve ordered from Harvey, but their customer service team has been fantastic every step of the way, even sending out some replacement parts without requiring me to send anything back. Marc hasn’t supplied any proof or documentation in regards to his customer service experience, and based on my own experience, I believe Marc was insulted that they didn’t instantly know who he was and either didn’t really give them a chance to make things right, or was just an arrogant a**hole to them over the phone or e-mail when he wasn’t getting his way. Very likely the same reason PowerMatic dropped him. They were probably very sick on his arrogant selfish attitude and wanted to be done with him. Why else would they drop someone they’ve worked with for years.
@@spencerschulz626 and what proof or documentation do you have to say that he was a a-hole to them.
Besides it’s not going the extra mile, it’s a faulty product…. That’s the most basic level of customer service required.
@@andrewwilliams5337 Exactly. Based on the content of the reviews I can't see any reason to assume he was rude to them.
@@spencerschulz626 sounds to me your an expert on jerks and a**holes (read your comment), Marc certainly doesnt come across as such, he would have been far more scathing of havey in his video had he been
I had never heard of Harvey before the review. I bought Jessem, extremely happy with it!
Kudos to you for mentioning Starrett. That's all I ever used in the machine shop in the 1970's. I was lucky to buy my Starrett squares and mics from a machinist that was retiring so I'll bet they date back to WWII. Back in 1974, I set up my Craftsman table saw and took the recommendation of a friend. I got a really beautiful laser-straight piece of 15/16" X 3.5" X 22" maple and added it to the crosscut gauge. After I mitred both ends to 45 degrees (much like the Harvey shows) I gave it sawdust relief before I dimpled the gauge bar with a center-punch to hold it true with no play in the mitre slot. I dimpled the gauge bar once every inch on one side and staggered the dimples on the other side. Then, I fit it to the slot using a machine shop table stone and a pound of tender loving care. I also purchased the optional hold down accessory. In 1974, I probably spent $35 and two hours of time to get it exactly right. After I gingerly fit the bar to the miter slot, I was done! It still have that setup today and wouldn't trade it for anything. In fact, it worked so well I have 3 table saws and all 3 share the same design. To this day, hanging next to the saws are a set of triangles with a very true L square. When I was trained in the early 70's, a seasoned journeyman emphasized two things to me! 1. Happy is a man who can have a job as his hobby. 2. It's a poor craftsman who blames the quality of his tools! When I look back on those words I can honestly say, truer words were never spoken!
Best Wishes!
Tom
Great content as always James... What concerns me is that, as your sponsor, Harvey should be engaged in the comments on both this and Marc's video, and not rely solely on you to defend them. That much, I would have expected from any sponsor, but especially one who crafts premium tools for top $$. If they made a mistake, own up to it. No one will deny them the fact that anything can happen, even to premium products. They would gain much more respect by taking the hit and would also go a long way towards projecting their core values by doing so. Hey, this is just a hobbyist's opinion. But one who has several decades of working with the tools under his belt, and not one to shy away from premium gear. I have no doubt that Marc's unit was an anomaly, now Harvey needs to step up and prove it...
people that ignore their mistakes make the same one again and again...
Guido, many people don’t know that Harvey is a very small company. Less than a dozen people or so. If you look at their YT channel it has very few subs and actual owners of the product are generally happy with their experience, like me. Most of the negative comments are from non-Harvey owners from what I’ve seen. I would suspect a video response at some point but I think the Harvey owners have spoken and the angry non-Harvey mob doesn’t want to listen unfortunately. I’ve had a great experience with mine.
My problem with CZcams reviews are sponsored reviews. I can’t believe someone would say anything bad about something paying their bills or was given to them. I would believe someone that bought their tools with their money versus being given tools. But this is just my opinion like you have yours.
And just another .2 worth of my opinions. If this wasn’t a paid for review or a scramble from Harvey to discount Marc’s review why would you be worried about what Marc said? He bought these with his money, you probably didn’t.
Got my Harvey Alpha table saw and the MG-36 with it July of last year, and I absolutely love it and have perfect results with it and the saw in all regards as well. Couldn't be happier with the purchase, which I made on your recommendation too. Thanks!
Stump- Thanks to you and your content, I realized how much I enjoy woodworking. I had ordered the Harvey miter gauge and while waiting for my gauge, the WW video came out. I called / emailed Harvey and tried to cancel my order. Before Harvey could reply, your video came out. By the time Harvey reached out to me, they were attentive, helpful and explained what was up with the gauge. They made no excuses, left me the option to keep my order or cancel, and restored my confidence. Well, restored it partly, as you restored the rest. Thanks for this video, and thank you for your content, which is amazing.
The Harvey's a hard pass for me after watching both of these reviews. I understand bad units happen and that things get through quality control even on premium tools. Probably most people get good ones. What is unfathomable to me is that Harvey just told Marc that there was nothing more that they could do for him after he clearly explained the problems he was seeing. If they'll tell that to a youtuber who is reviewing their product and has over 700k subs, what chance does an average joe have getting things to be made right if I get a bad one also? Sounds like they didn't even offer him a replacement like Kreg did, and a number of commenters on Marc's video claimed they got a bad one too. Something's wrong.
It's also a bit strange that the most expensive miter gauge on the market has no vernier scale or mechanism for doing precise fractional angles. The most expensive miter gauge is the one least equipped to do precise, non-detented miters?
Jessem and Incra are both made in North America. I'm already willing to pay more to stay away from Chinese brands. When you can pay less, that's a no-brainer.
100% agree on all points.
You can't fathom that Harvey might have had a new guy on the phone/email? After all the shortages due to this stupid pandemic when everyone is short of help? It's no excuse on Harvey since they are the top/premium brand. But I can certainly see how it happened (even probable that it happened) Also, I'm sure Marc didn't start off with "do you know who I am???" He doesn't come off as that kind of a D-bag guy. And I *thought* they shipped him another unit, but I can't remember. I am curious why it's a hard pass as it relates to Stumpy's review. He didn't state anything negative. Unless mean the price is too high. I'm happy with my Incra 1000SE.
@@hansangb Just watched that part again. Marc said explicitly that the support guy told him there were no further adjustments to be made and that he'd pass Marc's suggestions to the engineering team for future designs, and that no offer of replacement was made. The replacement you're thinking of was the Kreg.
Agree that Marc probably didn't try to pull a "do you know who I am" routine. But yeah it's unbelievable to me that a replacement/refund or SOMETHING wouldn't be offered, regardless of who you're talking to. Harvey hangs everything on their reputation as "the best" because nobody would buy an explicitly made in China tool that also happens to be far and away the most expensive it they weren't perceived as the best. You'd think they'd protect their reputation a little more carefully
@Wes Oh right...I knew there was an RMA involved. Yup, Harvey needs to train up the new folks better. You pay a premium so support has to step up. I get that they must be short handed (probably) so they have to tell the 1st level support to escalate anything that they can't figure out.
Agree
If they had offered to replace the obviously defective tool, none of this happens. Good customer service is paramount and can make or break a company. No amount of sponsored rebuttal videos will fix this.
Marc asked about a return and the rep said he would have to contact a different department since it was out of the return window of 30 days. Marc declined to do that. I agree that the rep should have handled that for him. But it is not the same as refusing to replace it, as many are claiming.
There are other things about the experience that are concerning and I am talking to mark to learn more of the facts.
@@StumpyNubs Just to be clear, I assume you mean that there are other things *regarding the way Harvey responded to Marc's concerns* that are concerning? Personally, I don't have any concerns about Marc's side of the interactions. It seems quite clear to me that in this case, Harvey Technical Support/Customer Service did not respond adequately to the specific detailed concerns Marc raised. To be clear, they basically blew him off. While I doubt this was their specific intent, it is what happened. And we've all been there when seeking technical support for any number of items or technical services from various companies or individuals.
@@StumpyNubs Also, can you provide a time stamp to Marc's video where he talks about the different department and the 30 day return window? I've searched that video and the only mention I come across was that after multiple interactions with Harvey CS/TS, they said that there were no more adjustments to be made to the device and that they would pass Marc's concerns on to Engineering for possible use/consideration for future versions of the product. There was no offer of a replacement mentioned.
@@steveh8724 My information is from my personal conversations with Marc himself. Yes, the things that concerned me about their interaction were on Harvey's side, not on Marc's side.
Thanks for this review. I just saw the review you mentioned and I was shocked. Your review showed actual results. His was primarily features. I am still convinced that I ordered the right table saw 2 days ago after months of research and watch reviews of many saws before deciding to spend more than I really wanted to spend. The quality, reputation, excellent reviews, and great customer service I have received sold me. I appreciate your honesty.
I also saw that other review, and could not comprehend their findings. What you say makes sense. Thank-you.
Thanks for taking the time to add your insight. I am glad to see people standing up for something they believe in.
On the Harvey product page now, it looks like there may have been some redesign in the positive locking mechanism. it looked from the samples Marc and James showed it was more circular, as if milled by a rounded end mill, making a more rounded cut for the index pin to wedge into. The new picture on the website shows a very clean and non rounded straight cut, which might be a new design, since they state that shipping would not be until Feb 10th. That's just speculation on my part, but that may be another feature to improve the locking mechanism.
I honestly believe both Marc and James in their individual experiences with the physical units they were working with. I am glad to see a quasi-response video from James, who has been working with the unit for much longer than Marc. I value historical experience when I see tool reviews, but at least both sides are shown for the product. Thanks James!
To be clear, the pictures on Harvey's website are 3d renders, not photographs of a physical product. That might account for any discrepancies.
You and Marc are what makes your country a great quality manufacturing. For you and Marc, please continue what you do.
Because of your recommendations, I bought a Harvey bandsaw and this miter gauge. I love them both.
There certainly is a problem with customer service at Harvey. After watching Marc's review, I decided to cancel my miter fence
order with Harvey. The miter fence is currently backordered to late February. I called and spoke to their customer service. When asked why I wanted to cancel I told them about the review. Then they wanted me to pay 10% to cancel the order. What? This was not a restocking charge, this was one stroke of a keypad.
I told them that I would never buy another Harvey or Bridge City tool. She said she was sorry to hear that and we ended the conversation.
In the end, they did give me a full refund, but it still left me very annoyed.
After checking out their return policy online I called as well and was VERY unhappy with their response as to how it would be handled if I didn't like the gauge or if the gauge wasnt accurate enough, easy enough. They've got problems with customer service right now and should address it. No Harvey tools for me.
Dang man, are they made to order for 10% holding? Makes no sense
Only complaint I have with this is it's not a *bad* review it's a *negative* review. The review itself was very thorough and done well. The opinion reached at the end was negative.
Wow! Intelligent and careful use of English language. That's rare nowadays. To be fair, this YT channel is usually very carefully phrased and the speech is clear to my old ears
I watched the review from the Wood Whisperer. I also had an issue with gapping, but, after watching Voeltner Woodworking review and yours I had an idea to see if I could fix this gap.
I just got back in from my workshop and was able to bring my gap to 1mm by adjusting the 3 machine screws on the bottom.
I feel a lot better now after watching yours and the Voeltner Woodworking.
Thank you very much for the help with this miter gauge!
Rick
Good video, Stumpy. I've been very happy with both my Harvey saw and the miter gauge over the past year I've owned them, and was also shocked to see the issues Marc had.
I didn't expect that carpentry scene have so much internet drama, lol.
I love how woodworking CZcams’s drama is basically a polite discussion rather than hysterics like so many other hobbies on this site
No one calls my miter gauge inaccurate without consequences and repercussions
For many, it’s their livelihood, and the field is competitive. They’re really counting on these things
@Time Raider Films bcoz leaving only one or two everyone of them is trying to upsell a high-end tool or accessory to newbies like me rather than advertising their craft to potential customers.
It's the Internet. If you don't like the right cat video, you're Super-Hitler.
FYI... I used to do LOTS of consulting at manufacturers (for software). I remember in particular one visit to a transmission manufacturing facility, where I was introduced to the people in the METROLOGY department. It was quite eye-opening. One ---possible--- (and common) reason for items being out of specification can be from improper QA after changing out machining tools. That is one of the most important times to recalibrate and validate that parts are still within specification. Any time you change a blade, end mill, face mill, or other tooling on a machine, you have to validate that it is performing the operation within specification. A simple misalignment or improper insertion of a mill can throw off the part as well. You'd be surprised what a difference a few thousands of an inch on tooling can make. They also conveyed to me that anytime a machine is bumped or moved it can start making a part that is out of spec.
Oscar Schindler used that as a reason for producing no functional bullets from his factory in WW2. He could claim the official QA squad never came to set his machinery properly
I can see how both you and Marc anguish over doing the right thing and I think that the good faith that each of you attempt to operate with clearly shines through.
Thank you soooo much! And thank CZcams's system for having this pop up right after I watched "the ultimate miter gauge review". I have followed both channels et al for years. I highly respect both of your knowledge and abilities. In this day and age of the extinction of brick and mortar, and the proliferation of automated systems designed to minimize customer contact, many of us rely on bonafide experts, in this format, to have beyond anything else integrity, since we can no longer in effect do it ourselves.
When I buy a premium tool and it's not right, I would expect customer service to take care of the problem. Either by sending replacement parts or an entire new tool. It sounds like that did not happen. That's the real problem. Harvey definitely won't be in my shop any time soon.
Marc asked about a return and the rep said he would have to contact a different department since it was out of the return window of 30 days. Marc declined to do that. I agree that the rep should have handled that for him. But it is not the same as refusing to replace it, as many are claiming.
There are other things about the experience that are concerning and I am talking to mark to learn more of the facts.
I tend to believe the specifics of the Wood Whisperer's critique over the vague generalizations presented here. Being sponsored by Harvey raises your self proclaimed truth journey to a higher level. Failing to counter the criticisms made by the Wood Whisperer falls short of that goal.
Vague generalizations? I literally made cut after cut and showed the results without inserting my own opinions so you could decide for yourself. I wish more reviews were like that!
I saw the same video review you did and had the same questions. I used to work for an engineering/manufacturing company. I understand precision production. The other guy's (WW) further complaint was lack of support in correcting the problem. Separate issue, but that concerned me too. Thanks for a good review. I have a lot of respect for your work.
I recently developed an interest in buying the Harvey 4HP table saw, which comes with this product. When I went to the website, there was a “today only” sale. I called Harvey to see if I could get that price once I was ready to purchase. They said “no problem! Just call back and ask for me.”. 2 days later, I called back and got the sale price even though the price on the website went up by $800.
My takeaway is that I picked up the phone twice, and twice they answered. Both calls were very good customer service experiences. I’m excited waiting for my new saw to ship.
Glad I stumbled onto this vid. No way will I ever buy any of Harvey's premium range now. It's just too much of a risk especially for the money. Great vid, thanks 🙂
I’m just a guy watching woodworking videos that doesn’t even own a circular saw or if I do, I can’t find it. So, I don’t know a miter gauge from a level. Still, I think I understand why James made this video and I think it makes his point. However, I don’t think the tone came off as intended. The content is clear. The delivery feels defensive. Sure, it’s easy to say “people hear what they want” but that’s a cop out when your job is communicating with people.
Honestly, after having watched both videos I couldn't be happier to see the level of effort and care both you and Marc have put into trying to provide sympathetically honest reviews in both of your videos and to be respectful of the industry we love but also your viewers that depend on your experiences and resources. Having worked in manufacturing for some time myself I am very aware of the importance of QA and the challenges it brings trying to find the optimal spot to ensure QA is thorough but not production prohibitive.
It will be awhile before my Incra hd gauge will be out of service to really matter for me personally. But wanted to throw my kudos to both you and Marc for handling this with the grace, seriousness, and patience both of you have given your reviews.
As far as Harvey is concerned, should I have the need and opportunity to purchase a new sled, I'd happily give them a chance to earn my business... Mistakes happen and that wouldn't make me hesistate, but I'm going to want to be assured they are going to go above and beyond to address issues and I'd be interested to hear their response on how they are going to fix that issue.
That’s just another great aspect of your presence on the net….no ‘agenda’ other than practicing your trade and utilization of your skills. By your words and actions it’s clearly observed, by any discerning person, that you aren’t an ‘attitude’ looking for a reason to show off,…or trash someone else’s character over a difference of opinion or skill level. You’re just committed to perfection in your craft, to the best you can work for, and towards it. Those who gravitate to woodworking and tools should fully appreciate your input.👍💁♂️
I'm 100% in line with the experience from the Wood Whisperer. The indexing isn't precise. OK, the pin will snap in, but anytime it will be a little different. Try to cut an octagon picture frame. Put the pieces together and you will see a gap. The second problem is the gap between the miter marking and the arrow. This gap is more than 2 millimetre. Sorry that's not precise at all. Even 1 millimetre has nothing to do with precise. I love the fence and the stop. But the miter gauge itself isn't what I call a high level tool. We all know, Harley can do so much better. They produce amazing and precise tools. But this miter gauge doesn't meet the expectation buying a Harvey tool. And from my point of view this must be clearly said. And I hope Harvey will improve this tool. And if I compare the Harvey miter gauge to the HONGDUI HD-TB01, the weak points become even more obvious. The indexing is absolutely precise and this miter gauge doesn't have this gap. So it's very easy to line up. The HONGDUI HD-TB01 together with the Harvey fence and stop is what you quality wise should get. Look even the Harvey support didn't take the issues serous. In tis case it makes no sense to flatter Harvey nicely around the beard.
Was thinking of trying one but will stick with my Incra
I watch all your videos and like the content you put out on CZcams. I was impressed with this video and just purchased the Harvey miter gauge for my shop which I'll use to build an outfeed table from plans I purchased from Marc. This will be my first piece that I'm building for my shop and one might ask why buy such an expensive piece of equipment so soon. Well, I'm retired Twelve years this summer and I've worked all my life and didn't have any of the boy toys that a lot of guys acquire during their lifetimes, so, for me, time is shorter than it was way back when and I figure on enjoying what time I have left in the woodshop instead of the couch. I also have a Tormek T-8 still in the box that I can't wait to use. Anyhow, keep up the great work!!
I think you’ll be very happy with it. It’s a great miter gauge and James did a fantastic walkthrough of the adjustments.
@@VoeltnerWoodworking Thanks for the vote of confidence. I appreciate your reply and look forward to getting and then using this miter gauge.
Another unbiased clean review, wich hit the nail at the head by troubleshooting the issue at hand.... unfortunqtly it seems hard if not impossible to fix the problem yourself, so the only solution would be sending it back.
People have off days, weither they work at QC or at customer support. Therefor, unfortunatly, people do make mistakes.
In my opinion, both reviews, based on the information at hand, were valid and had nothing to do with being sponsored or not.
Thanks again for a great clarification.
Thanks, that changes my mind about giving it a try in the near future.
There was clearly an issue with the unit Marc got. Also, the very significant difference here is that James has a lot of experience with the gauge, where as Marc's experience was pretty much what any average customer would have. To be fair, a premium tool that has a spring loaded detent, I too would expect the detent to register firmly on the accurate angle. The thought of tightening it when an error of 1-2 degrees is visible wouldn't cross my mind. And the fact that the sample Marc had would exit the detent without releasing the spring is just awful.
And, as he said countless times in his review, he wasn't trying to go hard on Harvey. But when you buy a premium tool, that is what you expect. And for Harvey to respong to James that no one is 100% accurate is just silly. Sure, they have sold mountains of these gauges. That doesn't excuse poor QC. And since they clearly have done updates along the way, QC is even more critical. And negates the claim of "hundreds of thousands" of gauges, since each run is unique.
I find it good that James pointed out what the experience SHOULD be with this product, but it in no way changes the results that Marc got, both in product and customer service.
To be fair to Marc, he didn't need much experience to see that his just did not work properly. My experience just helped me identify the likely cause. :) Also, Harvey did not say it was not 100% accurate. They said no tool is 100% perfect in the context that every manufacturer makes that statement- it means they are always looking to improve their products.
Marc should not be given reviews of products he is not familiar with. Stick to the products you know, and educate yourself on a product before you give review on it.
@@StumpyNubs someone should mention that to their marketing department as they make some bold claims on the website
@@armandosalazar2560 I disagree. The average person is going to have a new experience with a new tool. Marc showed that immediately in progress, as you and I would have had the same experience with the same gauge.
@@JP-hj2gs Also, Mark is an expert in the use of a miter gauge. Lol. He isn't some inexperienced noob.
Customer service reputations are a BIG part of my tool buying decisions. More so than a possible defective miter gauge, Harvey's display of poor customer service made an impression.
Thank you for this video. I have a Harvey guage they included with my table saw. I absolutely LOVE the TS by the way! While I love the fit and finish of the gauge I was seriously disappointed with the amount of slop in the detents to the point it has sat unused in favor of the Incra 1000HD I already had. I never realized that I had to tighten the handle to pull in the slop.
Like Marc I dislike how the 45 degree cut in the fence keeps me from accurately zeroing out the stop. I can deal with that though if the detent slop is no longer an issue. I can always jump back to the Incra if I need a precise absolute measurement.
BTW, I did not get the feeling you were dissing Marc in this review at all. I appreciate that you took the time to re-evaluate your recommendation. It shows integrity and genuine concern for your subscribers. Also, the simple fact that Marc's review would trigger this video shows the respect you have for him and his expertise.
Thanks again, Stumpy!
I own that miter gauge and I love it. It is not only really easy to use but it's large enough to hold large pieces of wood. James didn't talk about the features in this video, but they are great. I also own the Harvey Ambassador 14" bandsaw and the Harvey Universal workstation (combo cabinet saw and router station). All of these tools have performed excellently for me in the year since I owned them.
Just bought a Harvey bandsaw (I’m 16) looking forward to using it!!
Thanks James, a good response to the Wood Wisperer, I think. There is some value in the unsponsored opinion though. And what about the response Mark got from Harvey? A premium tool did not give him premium results. Shouldn’t the company’s response have been better?
That's what moved me to the Incra. Harvey's service should be better than Kreg for a comparable QC issue.
Precisely. Top dollar deserves top service.
Also, I'd really like to know if Harvey did a thorough inspection of James' miter gauge to make sure it was perfect before sending out the third one.
We don’t know if the other reviewer was honest.
I can't speak to something that I wasn't involved in. Marc shared his experience and his points were valid. I take no issue with them. I will only say that many companies are struggling to keep up after two years of pandemic related labor shortages. But you are correct, a premium tool deserves premium service.
Thank you for clarifying. I did see the source video and was very surprised by his results.
This should be an important lesson for any business, and even more so beyond the world of CZcams. It takes a bunch of happy customers to outweigh the damage to your reputation caused by one unhappy one.
I love your videos Stumpy. The thing that really stands out to me is Harvey sent you a new gauge (I'm sure that was free and inspected) and you were able video, edit, and publish a video in days. However, a youtuber with a significant following like the Wood Whisperer was unable to get help with a gauge that he purchased with his own money. What does that say to the average consumer like me.
I had a great experience with Harvey customer service. My Compass Gauge is just like the new one Stumpy received. They sent mine just as quickly. No need for accusations. James is the best on the internet and he is no sell out.
@@WiscoWoodShop no accusations were made, just observations. Its interesting that's what you got out of it. I agree James is great.
@@BeeSharp I also had an issue with some rails on my harvey cabinet saw... customer service handled all my problems. a pleasure to deal with.
I have nothing bad to say about Harvey. the miter gauge came with my saw. absolutely Zero play, anywhere. its premium. All of Marcs comments were not accurate to my experience.
should i completely write Marc off as a liar? or maybe his one experience was unfortunate?
@@cepterone Should you call Marc a liar? Should I call you a liar because your experience is different than mine? I don't think you should do either of those things because they are both wrong. Marc isn't a liar because his is experience is different than yours and he isn't the only one with problems concerning harvey. I and many others have had problems with harvey, my gauge was exactly like marcs and harvey had the same response. Take a quick peak on forums and you will discover many people that have.
I think you should take a more reasonable course of action and take your experience for what it is, your experience.
It is human nature to bitch, piss and moan whenever people disagree with someone else’s opinion. Been watching YT for years and always check reviews of products I’m interested. Way more nay sayers on Yt than folks with positive experiences. And damn few that show actual results of multiple tests. Even NASA does not 100% check everything that goes into a rocket, capsule, or space shuttle they put live people in and send to space. Get real; people are NOT perfect and neither is anything they make or say. Every company on this planet has piss poor customer service some of the time.
I was getting ready to purchase a Harvey bandsaw, not any more. I'm very concerned about their customer service. Your videos are great and I've learned a lot, thanks for what you do.
I am speaking to Marc to learn more about what happened.
Can't wait to hear follow-up. Don't let this one die.
Thank you very much for your effort in clearing this up. I recently graduated from my old DeWalt job site table saw to the full blown Harvey 110S-52 and was very excited to get it up and running. When I saw that video I cried for days (J/K)! Based on your in depth analysis and my own excellent results using this fence my confidence has been restored in my considerable investment.
Thanks for all your hard work with all of your videos. They have been critical to my success as a professional woodworker.
Because i'm sure that as your sponsor, harvey didn't check that new unit thoroughly prior to sending it to you.
If I thought they would manipulate that, I wouldn't work with them. I didn't just find this brand yesterday. I have known them for two years and they do not operate that way.
Nubs you should contact Marc directly and have him send you the miter gauge you can livestream your own test. unless you have something to hide that i$! love the content keep the videos coming!
Nothing for me to test. His tool had obvious issues.
I build furniture. I use Harvey saws and this miter. I saw that other review as well and could not believe it. I have had one for about a year and it has NEVER let me down. It came out of the box perfect and remains dead on the mark each time. He also reviewed Osborne which I happen to agree 100% with his assessment. I used an Osborne for over three years before I got the Compass and I was constantly having to adjust it. I never ever adjust the compass. It maybe too good in fact because i trust it so much that i become complacent and rarely check its accuracy until after the cut ….but again I’ve never been disappointed.
Thank you. Very informative. I am currently shopping for a miter gauge and this really helped. Keep up the good work.
Tightening up the threads does help improve the tolerances -but let's not loose sight of the fact that we're talking about one of THE MOST EXPENSIVE miters on the market. And if a CZcamsr like TWW with a wide audience can't get adequate support for a rare quality control issue, what hope do the rest of us have? For a premium product, one would think they'd actually want to get these supposedly limited number of units back for investigative purposes, if not for sake of their brand reputation. Would that not be a drop in the bucket ,when they're supposedly selling "tens of thousands" of them with very few returns? Or could the few returns actually be more influenced by Harvey's detailed return policy that that does not permit the return of used products and that if Harvey doesn't consider the product defective, then it the customer is out a 10% restocking fee plus the to/from shipping fees, which could account for over 1/3 of the tool's overall value. In the end, the question isn't that you can't cut a 90 or a 45 degree angles. Even stock contractor table saw gauges do that. The question is: is this Compass Miter really worth your premium money when compared to other premium miter's on the market?
My concern is that Harvey didn't seem to fully investigate why he was getting the results that he did. A company selling that expensive of a miter gauge should be thoroughly interested when a well known wood working "influencer" is having issues with their product. If he couldn't catch their attention, how would they respond if an "average joe" was having issues with a product.
Did he let the company know and offer to send the product back or did he just make a review video and leave it at that?
@@Nereosis16 he had multiple email exchanges with them.
I doubt any CZcamsr identifies himself as an "influencer" when they call a company's customer service. I think the problem may have been the tech didn't understand the issue he was having. I didn't understand it either until I looked closely at the video.
@@StumpyNubs according to other comments he did in fact inform them this was for a video etc. Guild members have apparently seen the emails.
Regardless of that - how's anyone not owning a big CZcams channel get help if they get a gauge with similar issues?
Marc merely said he was reviewing different gauges. I do not think the rep knew what that meant and he definitely did not connect Marc the customer to Marc the Wood Whisperer.
Marc asked about a return and the rep said he would have to contact a different department since it was out of the return window of 30 days. Marc declined to do that. I agree that the rep should have handled that for him. But it is not the same as refusing to replace it, as many are claiming.
There are other things about the experience that are concerning and I am talking to mark to learn more of the facts.
I saw that video too. Glad you did this video since I was really looking hard at getting the harvey saw. Thanks for your input.
I’ve watched both videos and have to agree with both of you. I’m glad you made this response as it was clear Marc was not getting the results he expected.
I like the reviews that say "didn't use it yet but I love it!" "Haven't ever been to this restaurant 1 star."
James, must say how much I appreciated your precision in testing the guage. Eliminated even the possibility of a personal bias. Well done. At the same time, I appreciated your grace in not belittling the dissatisfied customers, or the company who made the guage. I am impressed, sir & I thank you for your skill, teaching ability, and your credibility. You're a good egg.
Great job with the comparison. Performance based and clearly stated.
Thanks for your review stumpy. You do good work.
I've watched both reviews and like many people have stated, bad products do happen and the QC process does fail occasionally. The fact that the Harvey is at the pricepoint its at makes it an even worse situation. It's hard to ignore Marc's review but I trust both him and Stumpy for being honest and forthcoming. We all saw the spacing difference and I think that started the avalanche with Marc and his expectations for an expensive product. Hell, it saved me over a $100 by not purchasing the Harvey.
While I really like all of Stumpy's videos, I didn't really feel this one was right to do. It felt like Harvey asked him to make this rebuttal video, instead of doing the right thing and reach out to Marc and send him a solid replacement. While I believe Stumpy's results, I will not purchase the Harvey because I don't like how they went about handling the whole situation. Fight your own battles, don't run to someone else to fight them for you.
Harvey did not ask me to do this video. I can't speak to what Harvey may or may not do regarding Marc (although the original service rep did not do a good job at all) But your comment assumes things about me that did not happen, and I think that's unfair to me.
Good video. I like your channel; I also like Marc's channel. And I really liked his review. It was very well done and comprehensive, and I appreciate non-sponsered reviews: but I also like sponsored reviews from trusted channels - like yours. Of course customer service should have helped Marc without requiring him to make another call; but it happens; humans err - it's our nature. This is only a problem if Harvey doesn't fix their customer service. I'm sure they will. As for the miter gauge, your review has convinced me that Harvey's is a good one; however, my rule is that I won't buy any tool if there is a reasonably comparable North American made product - there is in this case. I am in the market for an after market miter gauge & have ruled out Harvey on those grounds. But I am also in the market for a band saw and have no problem keeping their saws in consideration. Nice job with a very difficult topic; and hope you remain healthy and prosperous.
Very professional and thorough review.
Really, really interesting! Thanks, James! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Lemon: I got mine a couple of weeks ago and have major issues with it. Mainly, it simply doesn't work on the right side of the blade. My 52" fence/table is on the right side so working on the left side of the blade is awkward for me, at best. The instructions and some CZcams videos hint at this option but, interestingly, never actually show it in operation on the right side. A good look would show flaws that make the cursor/compass distance pale in comparison (I had that problem too). I sent a comment to Harvey. I'll see what they have to say, if anything.
I have other Bridge City/Harvey tools (bought a cast iron router, cabinet saw table extension and dust box at the same time) so know Harvey makes quality stuff but unless I'm doing something incredibly stupid, this one is a fail.
For the money, I think the JessEm is a much better option.
If you had a sword fight with harvey and jessem, the harvey would be in pieces and the jessem would have a few scratches
Update: I contacted Harvey about the right-hand issues and laid out the problems. They thanked me for giving them detailed information about the problems that I found and how they could fix them (don't know if they will). They agreed and even some time after receiving gauge, they're accepting a return and sent me a return label.
They seem to be good people and the service is excellent. Top prices should have service to go with it but often it doesn't. Harvey is great to deal with.
I'm interested in the channel you contacted Harvey through.
Their general customer support appears to be average but customer service does have a great number of variables.
The issue is if Marc has experienced a general attitude of Harvey towards normal customers then we are stuffed of we get a fault.
Where as you may have a higher priority based on who you are and what sway you may have.
Either way I enjoyed both videos.
Thank you. Once again this is why I watch your reviews and have high confidence in your opinion. I too watched that review and even though I subscribe and believe in the expertise and talent of that individual, I was surprised in his review of the Harvey miter.
I have that miter gauge and love it , got mine in 2020 as well .
Feels like the issue here is the customer service, and quality control, the company failed twice, once in the quality control and then again when he reached out to the support line.
This is not how you handle a bad review - having someone else put out an... objective positive review. The right response here would have been to address the customer service issue that the WW experience directly, talk about why it happened, and then describe the changes to the organization and process that will result from this.
The bigger concern here isn't just the mitre gauge, it's now spread to every product they make because they didn't address the actual defect - their handling of the situation. This was entirely manageable, but whoever at Harvey addressed this has no training in crisis management, and so they knee jerked a response rather than taking the time to consider the underlying issue and address it. That is also btw the core reason for the bad experience that the WW had - not listening and responding. If anything, they doubled down on the behavior that caused the bad review in the first place.
Harvey did not request nor contribute any talking points to this video. I explained it's purpose in the video.
There are lots of things about his review I did not address because this was not about his video. It was about my own experience. Marc shared his experience with his customer support agent and his points are valid. I take no issue with them. I will only say that many companies are struggling to keep up after two years of pandemic related labor shortages. But you are correct, a premium tool deserves premium service.
Very detailed and concise review of the Harvey MG-36 miter guage and explanation of why someone else may have gotten bad results from thiers!!!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Really great review, and I am glad you didn't go after Marc in a personal way. I saw his review in the last couple of days and it was excellent as well. He was correct to expect a premium experience from that miter gauge, and I am surprised a company like Harvey would even quibble about just sending out a replacement. I have had Kreg send me a replacement with no more than me sending a single email saying I had an issue with a tool. I bet it is a great miter, but admittedly I think I would be a little gun shy now thinking it would be a hassle to get it replaced if it wasn't perfect.
Certainly not a return window or the service you would expect to have from a company that's selling a premium product. Bouncing people three different departments is a standard business practice to avoid costs thinking customers won't do it.
That's exactly what Marc did and I would do. If you're not going to make it easy to fix a problem with a brand new product then you deserve the bad public relations that comes with people like me who will do nothing but bad mouth your product.
Reputable companies selling premium products won't allow this to happen. So what is wrong with Harvey's business model? It may be a premium "designed" product but then use cheap and manufacturing and poor quality control on top of support/replacement barriers to customer happiness. The product may be designed as premium but it's not a premium company based on their modus operandi.
I feel that the big vote of no confidence is that the wood whisperer essentially got gaslit by customer service. It's fine that a tool occasionally has issues, the important thing is that the company makes it right quickly and hopefully before any injuries can happen. I'd want any tool company to send out a message to it's customers asap if they discovered a flaw, and have instructions on how to follow up if your unit was affected. Like you said, they don't just make miter gauges. They make saws, lathes, the whole kit... what if the next product they say is "fine" turns out to be one of those? Before I purchase anything that, you know, has the capacity to remove a body part in a loud and extremely quick fashion... I'd like to know that the company won't blame me if there was a defect on THEIR end.
Same reason I'm careful with firearms purchases. Both things can cause death or serious injury if something goes wrong with the Operator or the Tool. A company that stands behind a decent, servicable product is worth a lot more to me than a company that tells you "Sink or Swim" on a premium one.
A faulty product is not the same as an inherent flaw. If it was a design flaw, my three gages would have them too. I have no idea how widespread Marc's issue is. It's more than one, certainly. But most of what I am hearing is people talking about what they have heard with very few actual examples. As you know, bad experiences are always widely shared but all the good ones rarely are. I think it's a little premature to be acting like there needs to be a product wide recall notice or comparing an inaccurate angle setting to the risk of losing body parts...
Marc asked about a return and the rep said he would have to contact a different department since it was out of the return window of 30 days. Marc declined to do that. I agree that the rep should have handled that for him. But it is not the same as refusing to replace it, as many are claiming.
There are other things about the experience that are concerning and I am talking to mark to learn more of the facts.
@@StumpyNubs You're right, while i never said "inherent flaw", I did say "flaw", and that's on me to use more clear terminology. So! please allow me to elaborate. Let's say that one table saw gets a report back that "oops all blades" or something. Now offhand the company doesn't KNOW that this is a design flaw, or a one-off deal, so a responsible company would follow up with the customer, with their internal team, and reach out to purchasers of the product. this is still "discovered a flaw", while it's not something inherent to the design, it could be a bad batch that's roaming wild and free in the halls of hardware stores. Every company that produces a thing occasionally has a bad batch of said thing, the important part is how they follow up on finding out about those one offs or entire batches. While a miter gauge failure is not as bad as a table saw failure ( and also why does a premium tool only have a 30 day return window? for that much I'd want at least 90 days), a good follow up would have been to ask for pictures and other information if possible, so the internal team could see if there were matches in their ticket system. tbf, this is coming from someone who's done far too much QA/customer facing bits to be healthy, so i can expect that this isn't the first thing on anyone's mind.
ultimately though, my issue about this video are things like "There are other things about the experience that are concerning and I am talking to mark to learn more of the facts." and "I can't speak to something that I wasn't involved in. Marc shared his experience and his points were valid. I take no issue with them. I will only say that many companies are struggling to keep up after two years of pandemic related labor shortages. But you are correct, a premium tool deserves premium service." I understand that you were stressed, but focusing on the technical part and then ignoring what seems to be the part people were upset with doesn't feel quite honest. I get that you probably felt rushed to get this out and do damage control on your name- a perfectly reasonable response! However, I think a better idea might have been something short and sweet like "hey all, I have the technical side of things, but i want to hold off with a full video until I talk to the company, and Marc himself. I hope you'll understand that i want to give as complete a story as possible, and thorough investigations sometimes take time." Because it's fine to take your time on things that are important. We mentally do our cuts before actually doing them, we plan out things to be as accurate as possible instead of just winging it, and we follow through only when we're sure we have a complete picture of the situation. Doing otherwise... well, we're all human, we've all done it, and we know how well it turns out.
Thank you James! I am pleased with mine, especially that it came with my saw. I know I tested mine out of the box and it was dead on. I agree with some Marc's nitpicking, but I don't think it makes it a product one can't recommend.