BOMBSHELL testimony changes the whole SawStop narrative!
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- čas přidán 2. 04. 2024
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- NPR Article: www.npr.org/2024/04/02/124114...
- CSPS Hearing: • Commission Meeting | S...
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▼ *IMPORTANT DETAILS ABOUT VIDEO:* ▼
- NPR Article: www.npr.org/2024/04/02/1241148577/table-saw-injuries-safety-sawstop-cpsc
- CSPS Hearing: czcams.com/video/oyJGE2Vyid0/video.htmlsi=zmoRDZ7aYuJYknj1
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- Ridge Carbide 80-tooth table saw OR miter saw crosscut/plywood blade (use discount code SNWJ10): ridgecarbidetool.com/collections/miter-radial-saw-blades/products/10-x-80-ar-4-1-5-hk-087-115-rs1000-super-miter
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It is worth noting that liability for an injury with a table saw without sawstop already exist in that sawstop is reliable and proven at this point. The regulation would add weight, but I personally could see the radial arm saw disappearance happening without the regulation just due to the way guards are so easily forgotten about..
I hope this gets some visibility, given some of the inaccuracies. SawStop Technology is expensive partially because they have been the sole manufacturer to date -- both intentionally and because of manufacturer's refusals to adopt -- and they do not hold a majority share of the market. Your pricing speculation that there would be no new saws for "less than $700-800 bucks" seems to ignore that the CPSC already estimated the potential costs using current market costs for AIM technologies and not factoring any additional economy of scale because the patents are still in effect. Even doing so, their estimates were that the cost for the cheapest saws would be "more than double" at $400 or more, again, based primarily on the costs of development or licensing patented technologies.
Another reason for the more expensive cost of these AIM systems is that they are designed to prevent damage to the device overall, not just injury. You state cheaper saws aren't robust enough, but stopping the blade doesn't necessarily require them to be robust (ignore that the Reaxx system avoids this completely). Cheaper saws do not have a need to survive the failure or have replaceable parts since the survivability of the saw isn't necessary at that price point. Anyone who complains that they have to buy another $300-400 saw because they DIDN'T need to spend $10k on hospital bills after losing a finger/hand might need to re-evaluate their priorities.
As for Manufacturer's claims about extraordinary costs, they use the same tired ruse every time they want to protect profits in the face of regulations. The cost of Bosch's development was significant not because it was a difficult engineering problem, but because they were specifically trying to avoid SawStop's numerous patents in an effort to maintain profits. There is no reason for an excessive "development" cost if the final patent is committed to public domain as they would literally have the plans to build them, and those costs were calculated prior to SawStops commitment to public domain the final patent. Seat belts, air bags, CFCs, and asbestos are also examples where these same types of cost claims were made. In fact, I'd welcome examples where Manufacturers didn't make claims about extraordinary costs whenever a new safety regulation was proposed.
The proposal is for compliance after 36 months, not an overnight change that would require manufacturer's to pull saws from the shelves for fear of liability like you claim, nor would this change their liability. The radial arm saw example is thin at best. Emerson (Craftsman) didn't recall these saws simply because they were sued, nor would any company. The only reason to do so would be because their lawyers told them it would easily be shown that no attempt was made at safety and they would lose in court because of it. They electively chose a recall/refund to save money, AS AN ALTERNATIVE to providing a blade guard kit (which they also offered for purchase at a discount). Claiming there is a significant liability difference would be like claiming you have massive liability because your car doesn't have a backup camera now that it is a regulated for safety. As well, your claim that this would make it "illegal to sell saws without this technology" is not only devoid of fact, it is outright false. The proposal specifically states that it applies to saws MANUFACTURED after the date of effect, not sold or re-sold.
With a number of hundred-billion to trillion dollar companies making even the slightest effort, a more affordable AIM is not just a possibility, but a likelihood in my opinion.
The government needs to stay out of our business..
@@FJB2020 bullshit. They are protecting the unknowledgeable from predatory people who don’t care if they are maiming and killing them. The companies could have bought the technology before Sawstop existed, but they had “acceptable losses.”
@9.30 min
Yes, they can put a breaking system in a low-end saw, however, the saw might be destroyed. In that case they can sell a 'single use save'.
So the saw stops the blade, but it might sustain catastrophic damage doing so.
I can see people buying that, because you want your fingers to be saved once. It's not that you need the mechanism twice a week. (At least I hope not 🤣)
For most woodworkers it will be a once-in-a-lifetime event that they need the 'stop'.
So for a weekend woodwarrior like myself a saw that saves my fingers once is good enough. In the unlikely event that I needed the 'stop' I'll buy a new one, knowing that statistically i should be done cutting my fingers for the rest time.
On top of that, by far and large the most injuries are sustained by PROFESSIONALS.
So the risk for the amateur is already lower because of less time spend at the table and because they are less complacent.
I think a single-save-SawStop would be a great idea.
I have taught wood shop in a high school for the past 20 years and the last 10 with a Sawstop table saw. I have never told the students about the technology. Why? Because safe procedures are the best way not to hurt yourself and secondly the students would have the false assumption that all tablesaws have this capability putting them at huge risk.
Sawstop is like a seatbelt in a car, you need to operate the equipment safely and can’t just rely on a safety feature to protect you.
Yeah the video of that guy grabbing the table saw blade without even thinking about it proves how complacent people will get.
That’s a pretty smart policy.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 They never think electronics can fail.
Oh that nice ! However I am a full grown man , an experienced carpenter, and if I want a Saw Stop I can buy one ! If I do not want one the who in the hell is anyone else to tell me what to spend my money on ? I just hear a pile of lame excuses ! So I don’t cut my fingers off on the table saw ? Great ? How about my framing saw ? Miters saw? Saws- All ? And on and on!
Buzz off and mind your own business democrats!
I have been a hobby woodworker for 25 years. I practice all recommended safety procedures. Up until 4 years ago I had never had any type of table saw incident. I have owned a SawStop for around 10 years. I have triggered the brake twice. Once with a fishtailing tape measure, the other with my finger. During the finger incident I was using the guard. I was using a push stick. But I was holding the board against the fence with my left hand, letting go when I was within a couple inches of the guard. It was a repetitive cut (8 pieces) and I was tired as it was at the end of a long day in the shop. My concentration lapsed for a moment on the last rip cut, and I did not let go of the board with my left hand. I ran it under the guard into the blade. My hand was saved by the SawStop. Prior to this, if someone had told me that I could have done this, I would have said "no way". All of these self-confident posters who talk like nothing could ever happen to them are deluding themselves. No one who has ever cut themselves on a table saw would honestly criticize this technology and every single one of them would turn the clock back and buy a SawStop if they could.
Your reason is perfectly acceptable. However, they don’t care about your hand. They care about selling more expensive equipment. Just get the price down and I’m sure most people won’t have an issue with it.
Once again, the user is at fault. Tired, end of day, repetitive cut. Should not have been cutting if tired. Should have been using a feather board, not your finger. Completely preventable if using proper procedure.
@@sandmandave2008yes a feather board would have prevented it for sure. I bought a set of Jessem clear cut stock guides and try to use them as much as possible. But, I’m willing to admit that as a human, I am capable of making a mistake and am thankful for the SawStop technology. Engineered safety beats behavioural controls every time.
If they could go back in time, they would probably just not put their hand in the blade again and save money on the sawstop saw. 😂 Sorry I'm leaving😂
@@saiiiiiii1ret rd
The generosity of the CEO has sealed my decision in purchasing a SawStop and supporting his company.
His original idea was turned down, and he still will plan on opening up the license rather than charging for the license. That’s a real one right there.
Part of the cost built into the SawStop is that they will replace the cartridge (but not the blade) for free if it prevented an injury. You send them the cartridge and they will do an analysis to determine the cause. We've had several of them replaced.
And if it doesn’t work do they send you another finger and sew it back on?
@@rickybobby7276 No, but why is that important? If you don't have a SawStop you have zero chance of avoiding injury. So you can choose 0% or some high probability that you won't be injured. Air bags and ABS aren't 100% effective either. Do you turn those off or buy vehicles without them because they aren't 100%?
If you cut wet wood (which can trigger it) or use a hotdog to test it, they aren't going to send you a new cartridge. There is a disarm switch if you know you're going to be cutting something that will trigger it.
It's simply ludicrous to assume that the prices would be forever set in stone and no competition in the ultra-capitalist market would ever happen. Wtf... The price will absolutely come down in time, always has been with every single product and will continue to do so in the future.
The video is just some stupid epic level scaremongering to kick SawStop and sell more fingers.. oh, wait. We can't buy those...
@surferdudemi you're correct WE CAN CHOOSE. If this BS "law" passes we lose our RIGHT to choose. This places limits on our freedoms. I'll take freedom over the false sense of "safety" 100% of the time.
@seekingthelovethatgodmeans7648 sorry, I'm not in a cu|+......
My table saw still scares the crap out of me. I hope I never get over this fear as it forces me to respect the power that it has to rob me of fingers and hands or knock me unconscious with a kick back.
I have a Sawstop and still respect it..I have had a kick back and learned to stay clear of the wood and also always assume that the brake may not work..I am sure it will but don't get careless with a table saw
@@sailingericYea until the owner of sawstop willingly puts his hand into the blade I'd never trust it
Exactly
@@gg-gn3re He did. You can find it on CZcams
100%. I only use it when I absolutely have to. Table saws and routers both get a lot of respect from me.
The number 1 reason accidents happen is… I’ve done it before and nothing happened……
Closely followed by: I’ve done this a million times; I could do it in my sleep… or without paying attention to safety procedures.
YET!!!
number 3: "it was just a single beer"
1. Complacency
2. Being tired
3. Inexperience
4. Freak accident
Number 4: "But I've always used my table saw while naked."
In 1971 we had a 24" radial arm saw to cut the beams for our house. That thing was massive. I cannot imagine not having one in a word working shop!
I worked in an industry that was obsessed with safety. One thing I learned while working in that industry is that safety measures that rely on human perfection will fail too often. Therefore, the answer to largely eliminating table saw accidents is NOT to rely on users to properly use their table saw, including proper use of blade guards, etc. Engineering solutions are almost always safer than solutions that rely on human perfection.
Perfection is impossible.
@@broca246 I agree, and to emphasize my point, that's why relying on human perfection doesn't work as well as safety that relies on engineering solutions.
What’s the total cost of all these safety mechanisms and is it so much that I can’t afford housing, quality food, medicine and doctors when I get sick? I think we have far exceeded that cost in safety and is why there are so many people below the poverty line.
@@rickybobby7276 no - minor, incremental improvements in safety regulations as new technology becomes available can barely be differentiated from rounding error on the real causes. So many people are below the poverty line because the richest 1% of Americans have directly stolen $50 TRILLION from the bottom 99% since the end of wwii. Today 3 people hold more wealth than the bottom 50% of all Americans. Wealth inequality in America today is worse than its ever been since the fall of the Roman Empire. Corporate greed is out of control - fewer and fewer mega corporations own everything and they have been bragging on earnings calls about using the excuse of inflation to gouge customers blind, leading to all time record profits since 2020, and instead of using those profits to make better products, they've directly lined their pockets even further. And to top it off, they've spent millions lobbying politicians for decades to open up all manner of tax loopholes and lower the corporate tax rate and the top income tax bracket to all time lows, so they can keep even MORE of the money that should be going back to the American people. The solution isn't to allow those companies to get away with cheeping out on safety - we've already seen that allowing them to do that doesn't result in lower costs to consumers, just higher profits for them and worse products for us. The solution is putting back in place the regulations and policies that disincentivize blind greed and making them pay their share again.
@@broca246 Not impossible :)
People forget that the biggest risk factor for injury isn't inexperience - it's regular use. The more hours you spend using a power tool the more likely you are to have an injury caused by that. Same with driving. Plus the more familiar you are with a tool the more likely you are to get complacent. That's why so many car accidents happen close to home.
This. I knew a guy who cut his thumb off while cutting framing pine with a circular saw. He's been a wood worker for many decades and it just took a few seconds of inattention while doing something he'd done a million times and it changed his life.
The reason that most (slightly more than 50%) car accidents happen "close to home" is because the vast majority of car trips are "close to home". "Close to home" is used in the transportation industry to mean within 25 miles of your residence. The average driver drives 29 miles per day. Do the math and look at the data and you'll find that over 85% of hours spent driving are within a 25 mile radius of one's home while only about 53% of accidents occur there. Looking at the statistics in context shows that when it comes to driving, familiarity with the roads lessens the chances of an accident.
Hope this helps people think about how misuse of statistics can lead to wrong conclusions and suppositions, whether done so nefariously to push a narrative or, in this case, unwittingly and with good intentions.
@@stupidas9466 I stand corrected - thanks for pointing that out :)
Experience is a good thing. I’m a safer driver now at 70 than I was at 35. I use all the safety features in my tools. But I’m most at risk when other people are around and I’m tired. Fatigue and distractions are dangerous in the extreme. Take breaks. Shoo people away and stay focused.
That's why the airlines are so comfortable with 1500-hour pilots. That's the equivalent experience of a young person driving 400 miles in a car. Those old grey-haired dudes are just too darn careless. The difference is the pilot has the necessary training and skill sets to do the job safely. Plus, and most importantly, a strong sense of responsibility. If he screws up, he goes down with the ship.
As for driving, I traveled well over two million miles without a major accident. I know I'm not as skillful as I used to be, but I know I'm a lot more careful now. I've used all sorts of power tools and so far, have managed to keep all of my body parts. Some are a little bent and scratched but still there. Yes, complacency enters the picture but it's experience that keeps you safe. Once you cut off a finger it's experience that keeps you from doing it again. Some people learn by watching, others by doing. No matter how hard the politicians try, they can't outlaw carelessness and stupidity.
I saw Roy Underhill using an old handsaw say "this saw also has flesh sensing technology."😂
In that case it is the flesh having saw sensing technology.
ahahahah ;-)
Roy might have something different to say if he cut himself with a sharp Japanese saw. I saw one person cut almost completely through a thumb with one errand pull stroke when the saw jumped out of the kerf.
Indeed. I did a number on my thumb with a flush-cutting Japanese saw. A razor blade with teeth. @@gregorymacneil2836
@@curtisbmeRight. I have a pretty good scar on my (non-dominant) thumb that I gave myself with a hand crosscut saw. But I still have a thumb, due to the saw-sensing technology.
After 40+ years of woodworking using an old table saw I still have all of my fingers and a brand new Sawstop.
In the 70s I ran my left hand through a guardless table saw due to the shop Forman saying guards just get in the way.
I learned my lesson the hard way and have never again used mine without the guard.
While SawStop is an innovative tool. I’ll just keep using a guard and never trust in technology to always solve what common sense can
Lucky for me all fingers are still there
The guard at one time was NEW technology, but you swear by it.
@@tianyi05 Sure? but the guard is a physical block that can't fail. It is not at all comparable to an electronic sensor system that can and will fail. The fact both can be technically called technology doesn't make them equal.
@@xe-wf5iv It is like removing bumpers/crumple zones because your car has airbags.
@@King-Kazma it's like choosing not to buy a car with blind spot assistance. There's all sorts of analogies we could make whatever point we want.
@@bobbycrosby9765 Not really. ESC is an active safety device. Once it detects that conditions are met, it intervenes, and cannot be overridden. If it detects that the car is sideways, and still moving fast, and the steering is trying to correct, it will fire individual brakes to bring the car into line. Worst case, it will use brakes and throttle try to slow/stop the car dynamically and/or prevent rollover.
Blind spot detection is a passive warning, and can be overridden. Saw guards and most workplace safety equipment (earmuffs etc) are also passive. Saw stop is definitely an active safety intervention.
Ive been using table saws without guards or push sticks for years. After watching your channel I found the guard that came with my latest table and put it back on. And started using pushsticks... and ear and eye protection.
Nobody ever trained me on proper use of woodworking equipment, so my fingers and eyes thank you.
PS. Not long after I started being safer in the woodshop a friend who has been in construction for 30 years put his hand through a jobsite tablesaw. He simply wasn't paying attention while splitting a board, and split his finger too.
I am still astounded thinking back on my youth and that I refused to wear safety glasses and earplugs because it wasn't manly. So stupid.
Underrated comment right here. Kudos for taking the initiative after watching the video and having the humility to make a change!
If the black market can sell gas cans, it can sell table saws. Que the shop teacher from that movie "UHF".
Your future 10 digit self thanks you for finally getting on board with common sense safety measures!
Proper use of dangerous equipment or anything are and should be common sense, period!
As a lawyer who has been following this story, this is by far the best summary/analysis I have seen.
as to the point about the blade guards, is it possible to legally require their usage? kind of like seatbelts in cars ...
@@carmatic the problem would be policing it. you already have people all over the world not following health and safety rules on jobsites, this will just be another area where they don't comply and get away with it (until an accident happens, then its a game of who can can the higher up's blame it on), there would be no way to police it in the home workshop where I suspect a lot of these incidents happen, the only real way to do it is some sort of 'dob in a buddy' system, which ultimately wont work.
As a karate expert, I am currently undecided about this subject.
Why aren't people suing car manufacturers because their 2010 doesn't have blind spot/auto emergency breaking, full side curtain air bags, etc.
lol the government trying to take control of our hobbies now, it’s against the law to harm your self if you do you will suffer punishment!
important and necessary conversation for all skill levels of wood workers! Thank you for taking the time to cover this topic!
Thanks for taking your time to share this with us.
You're absolutely right about how cumbersome it is to take the blade guard off and replace it. I bought a used cabinet saw from a cabinet shop 10 years ago. They had put a LOT of hours on it (still in perfect shape), but the blade guard was STILL in it's original packaging! They had NEVER used it. I bought some thumb bolts to replace the original hex bolts. It now takes 15 seconds to exchange the guard. I use it for every cut now, and I didn't with the saw I had before this one.
One thing I love about my Metabo HPT jobsite saw is the blade guard is trivial to install or remove - it simply uses a spring-loaded peg to snap into position on the riving knife. It's easy to remove on the times I need to, but so easy to put back that I always do. This is how to do a blade guard!
You don't have to screw the blade guard on the saw stop it has a lever you pull up to loosen and down to lock. And it flips up completely out of the way but we still leave it off , till OSHA shows up lol
I hired a contractor once build a work bench and put an upside down circular saw with trigger cable ties in and make it act like a table saw
Big comercial outfits use aftermarket guards that are suspended from above. It allows to make cuts that don't go all the way through the wood.
I say 1 out of 10 cuts for me I don't go all the way through
I'm 68 years old and I remember when people laughed at me because I insisted on wearing eye and hearing protection. That has changed so maybe blade guards that are well designed can become an accepted device on tablesaws. No, I've never had a tablesaw accident but I almost did once.
When Jacques Plante became the first hockey goalie to wear a mask, he was criticized for it. There are always those trying to hold back progress. Yes, safety costs.
Safety glasses and ear-pro are probably the gold standard for _good safety;_ they are cheap to buy, cheap to use (if they turn out to be needed or not), basically don't get in the way of doing the work and are highly effective for a wide verity of risks. Safety devices like in the video on the other hand are expensive to install, expensive when triggered, can disable or destroy job critical equipment and even when they work exactly correctly only mitigate a very specific risk. On top of that, they are likely to trigger under conditions where they provide no safety advantage (e.g. try working outside on a rainy day). I suspect that more than half of them will be permanently disabled and within a few years there will be an arms race between labor and regulators around bypassing them and preventing people from doing that.
Passive safety guards are kinda in the middle. A lot of them are just fine, but there are a bunch more that unavoidably significantly reduce the utility of the equipment. For example, try running a dado blade on a saw that has a guard. And if the guard can be removed, then everyone "knows" that a lot of people will never use it rendering it as something that is more to protect the manufacturer in court than the user in the field.
You're a weenie for doing that 🙂
@terrydanks I think when you get into a thing like 'hockey goalie' in an era where there's no face protection, so you take the roll with a liability aspect, and then there's a generation of goalies you're standing on the shoulders of.....
The safety aspect looks like a bit of a cop out (or puss out if you wanna be intense). I can see a bunch of people who stepped up to take the risk looking down on a modern safety measure as a bit lame. "We all took the risk, if you're scared, sit on the bench and play third line defender.... watch a 'real man' play goal."
@@benjaminshropshire2900well spoken.
I was surprised the manufacturers opposed this. Car manufacturers opposed regulations till they realized they were being 'ordered' to sell more product without the risk of competing with other makers who didn't put it in.
It adds far more complexity to their products. They'll have to re-engineer and re-tool everything. If I had a running product line that was making me money I wouldn't want to shut it down and start over. Not to mention the added liability if one of them doesn't work or has a failure. They'll all have to increase the size of their legal teams. Total nightmare.
Cars come in all levels of safety. The cheapest ones have almost no safety features. No ABS, maybe one airbag and a shell that will disintegrate if you look at it severely. On top of that car manufacturers continue to make vehicles that are essentially designed to be pedestrian killers.
Now imagine if someone tried to force car manufacturers to put the full complement of safety features in every model.
Nothing you said after "opposed regulations" made any sense. Car manufacturers continue to fight every new regulation tooth and nail. They just don't waste effort trying to turn back the clock after the laws pass and the market adapts.
I have a 14” Delta Milwaukee 5 hp table saw made in the late 40’s. The torque on this saw is incredible. 3 belts. When I first restored it I tried running it with the guard off. I wanted to push the leading edge of the board up. It was quite scary. Then I realized the guard was an integral part to cutting. Its split shroud was made from magnesium. The riving assembly was substantially bolted to the saw. There was no other conclusion to draw than to safely run wood, the guard was a necessity. You’re right on target Mr. Nubs!
table saw blades spinning at 3000 rpm will not be deterred or impressed by the manliness of the operator.
What about Chuck Norris manliness?
More like 4000 to 6000rpm
If the people who need to understand that could understand it, this law wouldnt be being considered.
I’d give you the finger for that comment buddy boy but, erm, it’s missing…
@@TopGBottomLobster darwin needs to weed out the weak dna as there is clearly too much of it around
You'll be leaving Home Depot and you'll hear, "Psst. Hey. Want a table saw?"
"No thanks mister. I need to save up for the Kevlar underwear to legally use my garden shovel."
You got anything thatll spin a 15 inch blade without a guard??? Asking for a friend...
😂
You'll need a license to buy a blade but you could still walk into a free market and walk out with a gun.
ill give Tyrone $50 to go steal me one of them saws at Home Depot.
Stumpy Mic Drop! Thank you so much for a solid update! You have been reliable for years!
Fantastic video, thank you for all your efforts on keeping us informed on this topic. Couldn't agree more with you
Former patent attorney here: my guess is that donating the patent to the public domain might be a strategic move for a couple reasons: suing a competitor to block them from implementing a safety feature has nasty pr consequences, patent litigation is extremely expensive and very slow - rarely worth it, it will be easier to get a regulation passed if it doesn’t require a license, and (here’s the kicker) sawstop is the only one that has a proven mechanism and I wouldn’t be surprised if others have to license from them any way (buying the module).
20 years from now I think we’ll have cheaper options that are safe, but it’s going to be tough for the first 5-10 years this is mandated.
But here's the question, if the rule has a deadline to be enforced in 3 years or even less. Wouldn't any litigation that would delay that for other saw makers would mean for at least a period of time there would only be one saw manufacturer?
And can the CPSC or congress introduce regulations that basically hand one company a monopoly on a product?
Also, if Bosch's design worked differently, how did they lose the patent infringement case? Capacitive sensing products are all over the place from cell phones to touch lamps, and it sounds as if the rest of Bosch's technology was different.
Gass is a lawyer. What PR consequences?
Sawstop have offered to work with the other manufacturers wanting to implement the technology. So does this indicate that Sawstop think that they can make more money on consulting fees than they would make by suing for patent infringement?
Legislators pass laws/regs all the time that make monopolies. As an example, inside the 1996 HIPPA Act the American Medical Association's (a private organization) terminology manual is required for billing. The AMA updates the manual twice a year and generates 10's of millions of dollars each year via sales.
I grew up learning to cut wood on a radial arm saw so when I was finally able to set up my own shop, that is what I bought. I can still remember from 45 years ago when the spinning blade broke off a piece of a board and threw it past me with such force that it dented the wooden garage door 15 feet away. I hate to think if it had hit me. As I eventually began to appreciate that most woodworkers used table saws, I bought one and sold the radial arm saw. Virtually all of the cabinet shop pros and hobby woodworkers I knew never used blade guards, so I never used mine, which also meant I had no splitter or riving knife when cutting. About 2 years ago, after watching CZcams videos (including several of yours on saw safety), I purchased a really nice sturdy guard from Shark Guard that was custom designed for my older Craftsman saw. It was not cheap at about $220 but it was a nice upgrade to an otherwise solid older saw. There is slightly more setup time when using a guard, but the reduced risk of accident is worth the extra time invested.
The one and only time I ever had a kickback was about 30-some-odd years ago. I was ripping a short length of a 2x4, about 3' long at a job site on a Craftsman TS. To this day I don't know what caused it, but it came back and hit me at the base of my Sternum. I was sore for a day and had a black and blue, but otherwise no other damage. I felt lucky.
I got my dads old montgomery ward radial arm saw when he died. I used if for quite a few years but scared the shit out of me. I hated to rip with it. As soon as I could afford a table saw, and a place to put it, I got one. At the same time I got a good sliding miter saw. 30 years later still using both. I am still using the table from the radial arm too.
HaHa, we must have been the only two people in the US that owned Montgomery Ward radial arm saws. I think I picked mine up for about $50 but had to have the motor rewound. The one interesting thing about mine was that on the opposite side of the motor it had two threaded spindles, one turning at the same rpm as the blade rpm and a second one that must have run through a small gearbox because it turned at a much higher speed, fast enough for routing.
My grandpa, dad, and uncle had a monkey ward radial arm saw in the early 90s. But they also had table saws without covers or riving knifes.
I enjoyed cross cuts with radials and ripping with table saw.
I was taught to respect them and stand to the fence side for if it throws it back.
Now that there's CZcams and actually seeing what those machines can do when something goes wrong it's kind of scary.
Now I use 6", and 23" bandsaws for slabbing and ripping. Sliding Crosscut mitersaw, and 3hp tablesaw with dust cover/ guard for big sheets with a full 4'x8' catch table.
Knowing what to expect and how to minimize any injury is a big step.
Plus having first aid kit with a tourniquet . Lol
You finally convinced me. I dug out and reinstalled the the guard and riving knife for my Craftsman table saw. Its a pain to remove when needed, but I guess I live with I'll live with it to keep my fingers. Thanks for setting me straight.
How many fingers do you really need anyway?
You are so right! Education is the real key, as it is with most things. I friend of mine was a professional millwork carpenter for many, many years, yet one day while working in his home shop, he nevertheless managed to lose the tip of a finger! It turned out to be too small of a piece to reattach, so they did a skin graft. He reported that the area from which they took the skin was more painful than the original injury!
😂 I love it! After a speech on the necessity of blade guards, a cut to an ad on for a blade showing a cut on a saw without a guard.
Literally came here to say this
Jump to the comments to find who would say it first!
When I spoke about blade guards I indicated that there are times when they must be removed. (I specifically called on manufacturers to make them easy to take off and put back on again.) The ad at the end was one of those times. I removed my guard because I was showing specific footage of the blade that would otherwise be hidden beneath it. (I was still taking several other precautions, including using a pusher, an extended fence and a riving knife.) I know some folks want to make an issue of that, because that's what people do on the internet. This channel is at the absolute forefront in encouraging blade guard use whenever possible, and I use it for almost every cut I make.
yeah i was thinking, something doesnt look quite right in that segment ...
I'm sorry but if you need to remove a guard to carry out a task then maybe you're using the wrong machine.
I agree with everything you say in the video, which is why I had to laugh out loud when we got to the ad at the end with all those shots of the high quality saw blades and not a single blade guard in sight.
But you do understand they remove those guards to aid in the filming of the saw, right? I know there's a humor aspect, but don't ever forget the govt is trying to take away YOUR right to determine you own risk tolerances. It's way past time to tell the Local, State and Federal clown enough. Work smart, know the value of all ten fingers, and work accordingly. YOUR safety is YOUR job, not some pencil-whipping moron in an taxpayer-funded office.
Came here to say this 😂
At least the riving knife was mounted.
I was going to make the same comment 😄
Who said American's can't do irony? 😉
I have owned a SawStop cabinet saw for seven years and I LOVE it! It is by far the best table saw I have ever used and that includes the Delta Unisaw I used in Grade 8 woodshop over 45 years ago (i.e. when Delta was the industry leader). I say this without even considering the safety feature. I always use the blade guard (except of course when cutting dados or the like). It's worth noting that removing or replacing the blade guard is super easy (remove the insert and flip a lever). In fact when I was researching table saws, THAT was the feature that sold me on it (i.e. I didn't actually buy it for the braking system). I first put my saw together over seven years ago. Since then I have moved it half way across the country (Canada) and I have not had to make any adjustments (other than line up the fence guides when I moved it). My SawStop cuts as accurately now as the day I first put it together. It's an incredibly safe saw, but it's also just an excellent saw! I will never replace it, unless for some strange reason I feel the need to buy another SawStop. As an added note, I use the second cheapest blades that SawStop sells (40 tooth combination - so cheap it's not worth sharpening) and yet have no difficulty ripping 2" hard maple.
Thank you for having this discussion. Some very good comments as well.
Thank you, again, for bringing clarity to a complex conversation. I’m a novice woodworker but a very experienced firearms instructor. As with firearms and electricity, there is no “do-over” when it comes to safety mistakes. I’ve been ridiculed for wanting to retrofit an older Delta cabinet saw with a guard and splitter. But I won’t use it until I have the confidence I’m going to leave the table with all my digits.
As a paramedic, I applaud your efforts. Some people think we love those types of calls. While the adrenaline rush can be exciting, seeing the carnage and trauma our fellow human beings experience is tragic. I’ve seen countless firearm incidents, from accidental discharges, unintentional shootings, suicide, and murder. There’s nothing wrong with excessive safety. Those who ridicule simply don’t understand the gravity of the situation.
@@climber950 yeah, i do not see a good argument for keeping things around that are only designed to kill
can't really add safety features to a thing whose only purpose is death
@@ThylineTheGay Your problem is that you DON'T know what the actual arguments are and don't want to learn. Your ignorance is a "you" problem.
@@Theranthrope Lol, the murder machine community consists of nothing but repeating the dumbest possible arguments imaginable. Thinking those arguments are rational is the problem.
Where I live here in Canada the government has mandated that all schools must use sawstop saws. That includes K- 12 and post secondary education.
Yep! Gotta stop all those tablesaw-related injuries the kindergartners are sustaining...
Canada is like having a second mother.....
@@drcornelius8275 das Mutterland
This is the same Canada which is "prescribing" MAID for boredom. Canada is not a serious country.
(Because it's a commonwealth.)
@@yevrahhipstar3902until last year I taught shop and math at a K-12 school, and yes, we did use a Sawstop. Of course kindergarteners don't use the table saw, but I would use it with kids down to about 6th grade. We never had an injury! However, the Sawstop saved my coworker's thumb. He was doing some cuts after hours, momentarily stopped paying attention, and put his thumb right into the blade. It worked great! And yes, he had taken the guard off
You're the most proper woodworking teacher. It's like going to woodshop university.
Bosh was probably told they can if they pay a major licensing fee. Saw stop started out licensing for reduces fees but everyone said GTFO.
No matter how good you are at what you do, no matter how many hours or years of experience you have, it only takes once and less than one second of being distracted or inattentive to have a serious accident. I've seen it happen and had an "oh shoot" moment where I'm just lucky nobody was hurt, but it scared the crap out of me.
The most shocking part about all this is that it seems to be easier to pass new government regulation than it is to get people to read and follow the safety instructions.
That's the problem with unelected bureaucracies such as the CPSC, EPA, FDA, etc. Unlike Congress with laws, bureaucracies implement regulations as they see fit. Way more dangerous and tyrannical.
@@TM_Stone Because the average person is stupid. I bet you argued against seat belts.
@@TM_Stone I don't think it's the agencies. It's the lobbyists who manipulate the regulations for the sake of the manufacturers.
@@TM_Stone I bet you argued against seat belts. The average person has >100IQ and can't read above an 8th grade level.
@@TM_Stone Average person has >100 IQ and can't read above an 8th grade level. You're the person who argues against seat belts.
Thank you for this summary!
As Norm Abram says,
"Before we get started I'd like to take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools PROPERLY will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember this. There is no other more important safety rule than to wear THESE, safety glasses, and also HEARING protection when necessary."
He hardly ever used a blade guard and I don’t believe that those glasses he wore were safety glasses. Norm is responsible for my passion of woodworking.
@@davido856 I recall Norm and Russ Morash covering the subject in an interview. They felt that seeing the blade was integral to the audience's understanding of what Norm was doing.
Ditto, I've been watching TOH (and later NYW and ATOH) since I first discovered it in the early 80s.
@@davido856 head on down to the optician, there's glasses that look EXACTLY like regular ones, except bigger, so you look like you're a poor kid in the 80's, safety lenses n all. so, is it odd fashion sense, is a home perm kit next, or is it safety glasses?
@@GrayRaceCat Yes, I have heard that removing the guard allowed the viewer better shots of the instruction, but it had an unconscious affect on the watcher that is was okay to use the saw with guards removed. Truthfully they are a pain in the neck. I watched New Yankee Workshop and Crockett ‘s Victory Garden on WGBH channel 2 from Boston every Saturday. That was long before CZcams. It was great stuff and I learned a lot.
Norm didnt wear ear protection until someone pointed that out
I love your takes on these kinds of things. Always to the point and well thought out, with data to back it up. A breathe of fresh air to the woodworking CZcams community.
An excellent, informative, and levelheaded analysis. Fantastic video, thanks.
Thanks for the video. You convinced me to always use all safety equipment possible.
I have been a carpenter and woodworker for 45 years, the 4th generation in my family. I had a Jet table saw that I inherited from my father. When I replaced it, I bought a SawStop and have had it for years!! The SawStop is a great table saw and I appreciate that it has a safety device that I have never had activate - I treat and respect the SawStop as if it were the old Jet I learned on, but I and my wife are glad to have some insurance just in case!!
Your comment makes me wonder... will people become numb to the dangers of a table saw if they assume that all table saws have the SawStop system on it? Will they start being careless and quit using feather boards, push sticks, etc. I feel a similar thing has happened with lane assist systems on cars. People no longer need to steer accurately... no longer need to pay attention. They just react to beeps and nudges like a Pavlovian dog. Paying attention is perhaps the most versatile safety feature.
Can I have your Jet table saw ?? 😂😂 I would take it in a heartbeat, respect the blade, keep the fingers away !
@@geneticdisorder1900 Perhaps you missed the words "had" and "replaced"? I think it's long gone. But there are plenty of others out there. And if/when active safety measures are mandated, there will be LOTS more available! Just remember, each of the average of 10 woodworkers PER DAY who suffer tablesaw-related amputation hand injuries also respected the blade and most had NEVER experienced a tablesaw related injury after days to decades of tablesaw use.
If I were to accidentally set off a saw stop, I would still require a trip to the ER to restart my heart.......also trip to the laundry.😃
@@d.newsome6344 I think it all depends on how we teach “shop” and how to properly use and respect tools. Also, personal responsibility has a lot to do with it as well and that needs to be taught to everyone, but I fear that it is not anymore - just look at how some people drive and I think they all had to take drivers ed.
We didn't recall all cars without backup cameras when they became mandatory for new cars.......
This will indeed make new cheap saws disappear, but I don't see this having an effect on old saws legally, tho they will go up in price.
I agree. There’s probably twenty craftsman RAS on market place by me right now. He must not be looking to hard didn’t drive up the price either.
It well, just not on the sales. The impact will be on commercial uses of the old saws. Insurance premiums will spike for using non braking saws, ease of sueing for a tablesaw related injure at work will be higher for old tech saws, that sort of thing.
The only example I can think of is the sliding drop side cribs. My understanding is you can’t sell or even gift those cribs. The main difference though is banning used saws without this technology would cause the used market to evaporate overnight. That wasn’t the case with the cribs.
What % of the value of the car did it raise? Consumers didn't notice the difference.
This will be a 100-200% increase in price for the most common type of table saw.
@@SpartanORGN my comment was about improvements not usually causing recalls of the old ones.
Thank you! Proper Education says it all no matter the experience.
Proper edumacation! How dare you sir😂 you did a great job on this. Thank you. I subscribed today. Keep it up.
Excellent piece.
"Sharp teeth passing a single point thousands of times a second, with substantial mass behind them are dangerous. That is why these machines work.so well on wood and metal. And they don't care if it is pine, maple or your hand. There are no do overs. And saying you are sorry, or you didn't mean to fixes nothing." (Mr Dugger, shop teacher) I am old enough to have had the good fortune of shop class in school.
I would like to add that a push stick or a sacrificial push stick is essential for me on my table saw and I would never remove the riving knife….and as with knives in general a dull knife is more likely to cause an injury then a sharp one so keep a sharp blade on your table saw at all times
You generally have to remove it if you want to cut a dado, or any non-through cut.
If you really believe that dull knifes cause more injuries than shapr knifes you haven't spent a lot of time with knifes. Old wife's tale that some knife ignorant person came up with.
My riving knife will work with shallow cuts if I don't use dado blades. If a person really wanted to they could get a second riving knife and make it shorter for smaller diameter blades.
@@Yellow.Dog. Disagree with your disagree.
Dull knife takes more force to do the job. More pressure leads to less control and more chances of a slip that overshoots into flesh when something finally gives.
Dull knife leads to frustration. Frustration leads to poor choices.
Dull knife is a sign of someone not taking caring of their tools. Someone not taking care of their tools is likely less experienced and more prone to having poor technique and safety habits.
@@seanlarabee6300 No worries. I've sat around many a campfire and such and asked the question at those types of activities as a "project" of sorts for many years. Also, in my 70 years I have had many more serious injuries with sharp knifes than dull. My butter knife injuries have been few.
Sold my table saw 15 years ago, even though I had made a custom blade guard which was very effective. The table saw dominated my small workshop and left little room for assembling furniture. Bought a few hand saws and kept my bandsaw for thick or very hard wood. Haven't missed the table saw but maybe once or twice when I was cutting plywood.
Thanks for your thoughts James.
Your reporting is well done. Thank you.
On a personal note, I have a 1947 Unisaw I have been using since 1978 (eighth grade) that was my dad’s. It gets used daily and I have all ten.
At 71 I am still using Grandfathers 1950's vintage Rockwell Homecraft table saw. Still have all 10, and I respect the blade.
We have a Saw Stop cabinet saw in our Maker Space.
I won't argue one way or another about what decision anyone else might make, but for a saw that will be used by some random group of semi-trained people, I'd not go without a flesh sensing brake. We have a "wall of shame" where we display all of the locked up blades and brakes. Some of them may have been false positives - where the brake triggered due to material inside the wood, etc. But not all of them.
(And even with the brakes table saws are still dangerous.)
Question 🙋♂️ how much money does it cost you to replace all the bits 🔩 🪚 every time 🕰️ it’s triggered. Genuine question from a woodworking newbie who is two years into his woodworking hobby and 18 months with a low price bench top tablesaw…🤓👍
@@simonmountford4291 The brake is $140 in Canada, probably around $100 US plus however much your blade costs.
@@simonmountford4291A lot less than the ER bill works have been.
It still doesn't make sense cuz you can still operate the saw with no brake once it trips🎉
@@aetorres7422 I don't see how. The action of the brake in pulling the blade into the table destroys the blade and ruins the brake.
1: great video and straight to the point
2: Push sticks are mandatory on my job site, and I have my guys training to use a push stick in every single use of the table saw, I take my blade covers off
3: Why are they not worried about miter saws?
4: I have about six old table saw that I was about to put up for sale along with other tools. I have. I am a contractor and I accumulate a lot of tools. Looks like I’m not selling my table saws
5: this is most important, as a contractor I will just bill the homeowners more money for a job to compensate for my purchase of a $1000 saw. Ultimately the consumers buy Contractor services will end up paying more money
Yep the prices of homes, furniture, and any wood related products will keep going up.
Very well done! Nice job!
I learned how to use a table saw on a SawStop in 2008, and it was the only type of saw I used for the next 5 years. Then I switched to a job that had no saw but badly needed one, so a coworker brought in his dad's ancient Craftsman that had absolutely no safetys, and an exposed belt -- like something you'd expect to see in a developing country or macho workshop. There was no space on the chassis to add a riving knife behind the blade, so I had to settle with an improvised splitter mounted to the zero clearance insert. I dreaded using that saw, but I never had a scare with it because I was super focused every time I used it. It was terrifying and I respected it. In that same period, a talented professional cabinetry carpenter who sometimes did work at our location got put into the hospital with broken ribs and perferated stomach after a kickback incident on a late model DeWalt worksite saw -- with all the safetys removed. The best safety feature is the one between your ears.
Yea going from a sawstop to an older no safety feature saw for the first time would be like walking into a horror movie.
…which may be the best explanation for a lot of the injuries.
😂I’ve got that old saw out in my garage now from a local auction. Haven’t ever even fired it up. Yeah. I’m a beginner with all ten digits and plan to keep it that way so I bought the dewalt .
And haven’t fired it up either. But will this summer with all safety features engaged. I didn’t make it 55 yrs just to get schmucked up at the back end of life!
@@chewyfingers1288 good plan.
"the best safety feature is the one between your ears"
and thus, 40,000 injuries per year. it's impossible to defeat stupidity. not by education, not by incentives, not by regulation can it be done.
I've been using table saws for almost 30 years and have not cut myself. Table saws scare the crap out of me every cut I make. I recommend you understand that these things will hurt you fast and to be careful
After 25 years of using my 10" table saw, one day I got careless and two fingers on my left hand got "knicked". There was a hand surgeon on duty at the hospital and he repaired the damage. Then there was the two months of rehab to get those two fingers functioning properly. I believe the total cost was over 10K. Fine today.
50 years plus. However, I saw how stupid push sticks were at the get go (just holding down the wood clear at the back and ignoring the part where the blade is trying to lift the wood) and created my own. Today, we call them push shoes. They are game changers.
Sadly, the designers of table saws don't always catch lessons from other things. Just as we figured out console stereos were inferior to component systems, tables saws that used splitters separate from blade guards are superior.
Those splitters, one I bought an after market one, changed the game as much as the shoes did.
I think you hit on something pretty important. You SHOULD have a healthy fear of your table saw. It's the most dangerous tool you own. You should be afraid for your fingers on every cut thereby sharpening your focus on the task at hand.
fear and respect are the great tools for keeping your fingers.
That's called respecting the tool.
What a great narrative. Great explanation of business and accountability. It seems as humans forge ahead, we are becoming less and less accountable for our own behaviors and the bottom line is of course money. Whether it's business or lawsuits, it is money.
What this means is that the guy who wants to buy a cheap table for one project in his backyard won't buy a tablesaw and resort to improvised methods to cut his wood.
That guy would be much better off buying a track saw anyway.
One problem with blade guards is that they can not be used with a sled. Sleds are much safer than the miter gauges that come with the saw. The best thing that ever happened to tablesaws was the riving knife. What I think will happen is that rather than using the inexpensive table-top saws, people will be adapting circle saws to those tiny tables. No riving knife, and a much more dangerous machine.
That's what those table-top saws replaced.
You can build a guard feature for a crosscut sled. There is no need to go without a guard. Yes, some cuts have to have the guard removed, but it's still worth utilizing one every time it's possible.
I built many saw sleds as a manufacturing engineer that work with blade guards. I'm actually having a hard time understanding why it would prevent you from making sleds
Sleds are a poor man's sliding tables, trying to fix the effect not the cause of the problem.
@@YaaLFHNope, a sled is also a zero-clearance cutting base, which is also far better for small parts and precision cutting.
“Giving up their monopoly on saws that won’t cut hotdogs” 😂
Hi James, it's been a while since our paths crossed. I'm curious if you've done any recent evaluations of currently available after market table saw guards. I'd be interested in your findings, opinions or recommendations about best guard system. Great overview of the table saw blade brake topic. I get asked about this all the time. Keep up the good work! Dan
I really appreciate your closing statement about proper education on the safety why’s; as it could just as easily apply to the automotive industry that’s so rapidly changing
I adopt the same philosophy with table saws as I do motorcycles: It's not a matter of IF there's a problem but when and how it will occur. Plan accordingly.
As always, you have produced a very well-articulated and much appreciated video. I will admit that I feel torn on some of these issues. I did have a table saw accident about 13 years ago. Fortunately, I was only a 3-hour helicopter flight ($30k) from one of the premier microsurgery clinics in the country ($25k) and happened to be covered under good insurance so that it only ended up cost $3k out of pocket. My hand is 98% functional and I'm incredibly grateful. I did make some poor decisions with the cut that I was making. I had been woodworking for at least a decade.
It might be surprising to some that I did not buy a saw stop at that point. To your point, I have since employed much better safety practices and have absolutely made a point to educate myself on proper table saw use, and when another tool is safer and more appropriate. I also happen to work in a social science field and frequently get posed with the proposition of more education to change human behavior. The thing about education is that the person has to be motivated, and motivation is not as easy to come by as we might like to believe. Education is one of the most frequently cited and least effective mechanisms for incentivizing behavior change, because it is typically implemented without consideration for why anyone would be incentivized to educate themselves. Until you have an injury, the possibility of an injury is functionally hypothetical.
You did mention some points about existing technologies that I absolutely agree with. Poorly constructed riving knives and blade guards that are difficult to install and remove are absolutely a disincentive to using those safety features. It would be nice if we could write consumer safety guidelines and requirements that say don't build a s***** product that people are going to use in ways that are incorrect because you've made it so damn difficult. I'm not sure how that would be written in practice, but that is the point you are getting at.
At the end of the day, I'm still torn. I feel like I have learned proper table saw techniques. That said, I have also resolved to buy a saw stop or something with equivalent safety features (should it become available) before I ever let my kids near a table saw, no matter how closely I'm supervising and teaching them. At the end of the day, I can see a little bit of both arguments. And to one of your hypothetical points, I do have a hesitancy to let anybody but myself use my table saw because I just can't know what their experience, knowledge, and practices are.
Thanks for sharing
My brother still has my grandpa's Craftsman radial arm saw, I had no idea about the recall mentioned. This is a very interesting informational video, I also still use an even older craftsman table saw that never had a blade guard which one of my friends gave to me when his grandpa passed away but he already had his own table saw. I don't think I'll use either of them anymore.
Thanks for that video. You make a lot of useful points and recommendations. I never realized what was going on with Saw Stop technology, I figured it would become universal.
The objection to the saw stop mechanism is that you have to replace the whole thing once it triggers. Where the Bosch Reaxx saw was superior was that if it was triggered you only had to reset it and you were off again. I wish I'd bought one when they were available. I hope Bosch redevelop it soon. I always shudder when I see American youtubers using their table saws without blade guards.
Apparently it had issues with mobile phone interference. I'm assuming this is one of the reasons it never came back to the market.
@@theScamBKLYNTurn your phone to saw safe mode now... 😂
Here's the rub - the patent that Saw Stop is willing to "dedicate to the public" deals with capacitive detection. That special technology is how the touchscreen on your phones and tablets work. That is a patent that never should have been granted given how ubiquitous capacitive detection is in our daily lives.
I don't know if it's true but I heard that the React saws are for sale in Europe or England. Don't know if it's true.
@@a9ball1 Fine Woodworking reported it last month as part of their coverage on this table saw stuff.
As a professional woodworker for 50 years, I know many colleagues missing bits of their digits. Anecdotally, I find that half of these injuries came from shapers, jointers, and machines other than table saws. Are there reliable statistics for the number of woodworking accidents annually that come from use of machines other than table saws? Personally, I agree with Stumpy's closing argument that the most effective way to reduce injuries is through proper training, emphasizing respect for the reality that *every* woodworking machine capable of cutting wood can just as well cut flesh.
By the way, I myself still have all fingers intact (knock on wood, as of April 2024). I have no doubt that the reason is that as a novice woodworker I had the educational experience of cleaning a Unisaw soiled with blood and the tips of my mentor's left hand fingers... Push sticks, featherboards, jigs, and fixtures immediately became daily companions in my shop life.
Great analysis. Thanks for sharing.
As a wood worker with 50 years experience who has been bitten by a table saw. Fortunately I only split the tip of my finger. I agree that the biggest problem with table saws is the guards and how they are constructed and mounted. It doesn't matter what the safety device or system is!! people will work ways around or not use them if they are not convenient or simple to use. The best and simplest I have used is a riving knife attached to the blade mount and an independent clear but relatively cheap extraction cover covering the top of the blade. This has to be easy to move. Another thing which I think is important is an electronic brake that stops the blade quickly after the saw is turned off. Like you, besides kick back this is where I have seen the most accidents people not looking properly whether the blade has stopped before clearing or doing other things.
Training is also important and that is where people like yourself comes in especially for those who are going down the self taught route. Any one who has worked with machinery understands that there are some jobs that can not be done or shown with normal guarding in place. But you must describe this every time you do it and the reasons for doing it and how to do it if all you are doing is showing.
I teach three techniques to all beginners that have stood me well beside use guards every time you can. The bowl technique. I have a bowl which I surround the blade with in my mind. Not a physical bowl an imaginary mental picture. I train my body that if it goes closer than that bowl my eyes are watching very very closely what is going on with my fingers in relation to the blade. I also teach that when you have turned that machine off you look at the blade until you think it has stopped you then look up at some other thing in the workshop before you look at the blade again to check if it has stopped rotating. When pushing I teach that push sticks are cheaper and much less painful than cutting your finger. But more importantly I ask them to tell me where there hands would go if they slipped, the saw kicked back or something went wrong. Even with push sticks you can end up in the blade.
I am concerned about this move. The reason is that it is stupid to put all eggs in the one safety basket. If this is happening in the US it will eventually come here to Aotearoa.
Reminds me of when I entered the building trades back in the '70s. Every new power tool such as sawzall, drill, etc., came with a grounded power cord. At the time, grounded receptacles were not ubiquitous, so it was common to rip the grounding prong out of the plug of our new tool if we wanted to get any work done.
In the future, I guess I'll just have to find other ways to cut my hot dogs.
For the record, you can actually disable the sawstop braking feature.
I led a multimillion dollar mishap investigation that had, as its root cause, the removal of that ground prong.
I was wondering why my old aluminum-bodied PET circular saw had the ground prong broken off and had grip tape over the plug. I never considered that. Come to think of it, I’m shocked (no pun intended) most of my old power tools have grounded plugs in the first place.
Years ago, I read an article in a woodworking magazine that cited a study that backs up what you said in your video. If a saw is equipped with a blade guard and a splitter, it is almost impossible to injure yourself. I wish I could find that article, but that was probably twenty years ago and I subscribed to several woodworking magazines so I can't even remember where it was printed.
If you cut thin pieces the guard has to go. Because it’s not a universally useful guard it becomes discarded.
@@f.kieranfinney457 That certainly isn't my experience. I have cut thin pieces with the guard on many times. I do take it off for non-through cuts, but on my saw that takes about fifteen seconds.
I totally agree with Stubby! Well said and that’s why there is this whole new culture with saw stop to begin with. Too many people bein macho and not using the guards that are purchased with the saws to begin with. Thanks for the heads up and much appreciated. Oh btw I do have one of those old Craftsman radial arm saws. Super cool and can be used with guards and safe practices. Thanks again.😊👍
I just wanted to say that education is very important. Probably the most important tool we can have. Sometimes just knowing what chance you are about to take can be very powerful. I find the guard on my table saw to be big and cumbersome when cutting narrow parts so I don't use it as much as I should. I must admit though, my favorite part was directly after the speech about guards and safety you showed a commercial with an unguarded table saw cutting a piece of wood. Lol. Thank You.
Thanks for the OK to use my blade guard, seriously. I might just put it on. Great video, as usual.
Been using table saws for sixty years and still have all my fingers thank God. Had a friend who recently lost a finger. I would gladly spend a thousand bucks to save a finger or two.
I am in complete accordance with you. Nobody plans an accident.
Well if you have the money & it's a added value to you then that's your right to buy it. But forcing others that either can't afford that extra cost or don't see a added value to it, that's not just unmoral it's unAmerican
@@jasonstephenson793 this is insane
My uncle had 2 "stumpy nubs" and he almost had a 3rd one, thanks to a kickback in his younger years from a circular saw with a disabled blade guard, that 3rd one was not on his hands.... or feet. Yeah, that one. Cut 3/4 of the way thru it and it had to be stitched.
Been using table saws since shop class in grade 7 at 12 years old. Been in the industry 45 + years Placed a thumb in a bag to accompany its' owner to the hospital. Ran my own manufactering for 25 years. I have seen the most experienced, conscientious people including myself get cut with a table saw. I will go as far as to say all users have had some sort of close call. Anytime I bring up my story of a close call to anyone, they are quick to relate their story to me. In the last ten years, I was called on to teach and set up a post secondary school shop. As I was not capable of patrolling every single minute of operation for all the students, I purchased two Industrial Saw Stops. The piece of mind brought on by this decision was and is priceless. As the owner and operator of a minimum of fifteen different table saws both industrial and portable I can say without exageration that the SawStop is by far the highest quality saw that I have ever operated. The extra cost is a small price to pay as everything is exceptionaly well thought out and the company has been great to deal with. I have no affiliation with SawStop. Any additional safeguard should be more than welcomed. Stumpy Nubs your argument of money over this safety feature is inexcusable. Just because you haven't had an accident does not equate to you won't. Please recant.
Any safety feature that helps people stay safe, is ALWAYS a plus. Since the technology will be mass produced, licensing, that cost of existing table saws, would most likely be a few bucks. Much cheaper than a trip to the emergency room or loss of hands and fingers.
First, thank you for bringing this up! I guess I hadn't been paying as close attention to this as I thought, I learned a few things - as usual! 🤓
Second, agreed, proper education is key to preventing injuries. I remember in high school my wood and metal shop teachers putting the fear of powered equipment into us, "you are the softest thing in the shop!" And the shop teachers had the resources to teach this kind of basic shop knowledge, fast forward to my kids in high school (oldest in mid 20s, youngest is freshman) and the shop teachers saying things like "we don't have the equipment to properly teach shop safety any more! We do the best we can, but it's not enough."
I think that instead of putting the money into forcing manufacturers to "do the right thing" we need to put the money back into education in the form of bringing back proper shop classes in high school. Teach the next generations the proper respect towards the dangers around them and they have a strong foundation to learn wood and metal working properly and with safety in mind.
There will always be those that say "I don't my safety glasses, I'm only drilling one hole...", We can keep kicking those dim bulbs out of the work area, but everyone should have the opportunity to learn the importance of safety. It didn't matter if it's wood, metal, or auto shop, safety used to be the main point of the class. Now it seems the main point is to fill a 40 to 55 minute period with "something".
Thanks for the intelligent discussion. I recently retired my Dewalt contractor saw (the older 10" model) and replaced it with a Sawstop CTS. $900 + shipping (no one seemed to have it in stock except for the display model, it has to be shipped for another $75). Bought an extra brake module in case I trigger the thing. Now it's over $1000. Took the opportunity to upgrade my blades from the big box Freuds but the new saw was just an excuse for that. I also have 2 Shopsmiths but don't use the table saw function - that's a scary spinning blade 🙂 The Sawstop's blade guard and riving knife setup is much better than the Dewalt's - easier to install, less wiggly/flexy. Storing it away is convenient for when I need to take it off so it doesn't get put somewhere and then lost and never reinstalled (I'm not sure where I stuck the Dewalt's blade guard when I last took it off 🤷♂). Finally decided I'm not interested in losing a finger as I get older and more careless. But I'm still super-focused on the spinning blade when I'm using the Sawstop. And I don't try cutting sheet goods on the table saw - that's what a track saw is for.
I'm not convinced that Sawstop's tech is the only solution though. There's a new one out there (in the 10K+ range) using optical sensors to see when a hand passes into the blade line for instance. Too expensive for a small shop saw but proof there is more than one way to make a blade-stopping saw. With the regulations I expect to see more innovation.
There's also a chance to reframe the problem - from stopping the blade to focus on the injury mitigation objective of AIM technology. A lot of the Sawstop tech is centered around slamming that chunk of aluminum into the spinning blade to stop it and then dropping the whole thing under the table. How about skipping the "stop the blade" step and just drop the blade into the cabinet - who cares if it's still spinning if it's safely out of the way of the operator? That's likely a cheaper approach.
Can you change the width of the Sawstop’s driving knife? If you change blade widths it’s kind of necessary. I seem to remember it not being possible?
Their saws themselves aren’t that great though are they.
@@f.kieranfinney457 They come with a riving knife and something they call a spreader that's a riving knife attached to the blade guard. The riving knife is used when you're not using the blade guard - like for non-through cuts. When you put the blade guard on, the riving knife is replaced by the spreader (think a taller version of the riving knife).
I'm not sure what you mean by "their saws themselves aren't that great" - the CTS is every bit as good as the Dewalt I had (and I'd argue better than current Dewalt contractor saws because those are no longer 10" blades but only 8.5"). If you meant their blades, I can't say. I didn't bother trying the blade because I assume every table saw's stock blade is junk based on past experience. I swapped out the one that came with the saw for a CMT Orange thin kerf. They have the anti-kickback teeth but are compatible with Sawstop (some blades with anti-kickback teeth are not as they prevent the AIM from slowing the blade as fast as needed).
The CTS also comes with a zero-clearance insert that is a tight fit for full kerf blades but perfect for thin-kerf. Since the motor is only spinning at 4K RPM (slower than the Dewalt) I prefer thin-kerf blades because they're easier on the motor to cut although I've not noticed any issues with bogging or anything with a regular kerf blade.
Slamming that chunk of aluminum into the blade is effective and nearly instant. Only 1 tooth makes contact with the hand. The other solutions may or may not be as effective, and probably aren’t nearly as quick. Sawstop’s mechanism works, it’s reliable, it’s fast. If I ever activate it with my hand, I’ll not begrudge the cost of the new cartridge and I’ll happily discard a now bent blade, just knowing that my injury can be covered by a tiny band aid and that I’ve avoided a whole series of surgical procedures, 10s of thousands of dollars in medical and hospital bills, and the result is a poorly working but cosmetically acceptable hand. That’s just the repair, there are months of rehab visits as well. Then there’s lost income from work. And you’ll be hard put to continue your fine woodworking with one hand, with scar tissue, reduced range of motion, and areas with loss of feeling. It’ll look like a hand but it won’t work nearly as well as an intact hand. That saw blade doesn’t just slice flesh and bone as a butchers knife would, it smashes, rips, and tears, flinging bits of hand far from the saw. And those bits, they’re tiny little delicate pieces of arteries, they’re pieces of previously delicately routed nerves, they’re tiny bits of small muscles, chunks of skin, and pieces of complex joints you’ve always taken for granted. The hand is complicated. It’s truly amazing. It’s exquisite. It’s well worth the cost of a few meals out to protect.
@@davidellison4750 I 100% agree with the value proposition. My older brother sliced off 2 fingers on a table saw so I've seen the fallout of a blade accident. I just expect that any regulatory mandate could result in a different look at the problem. If they can skip the brake part and just drop the blade (the SS does both in less than 5ms), it would save the cost of the brake cartridge (except for the electronics that are in it) and reduce how much extra rigidity and mass are needed in the Saw's frame & construction to handle the forces of going from 34mph to 0 in 5ms. That should reduce the potential cost of the saw. There are a lot of people who understand the costs associated with a blade injury but don't have the financial capacity now to spend an extra 300 or more. They look at the blade injury as a less likely occurrence than the need to buy groceries or pay the rent now.
I have shopsmith in the basement. What is the problem with them? I don't see much difference between them and any other. Then, I also still have the radial arm saw. I have a healthy respect for both and when I tried other saws also.
13:09 I saw parts of the committee hearing through 731 woodworks channel, who has covered this in depth. One argument from the tool companies that has a lot of merit in my opinion is that the committee used studies including cabinet saws in heavier industrial settings along with the jobsite saws for the injuries per year statistics. The proportion of injuries in the professional level saws compared to to jobsite and table top saws was substantial. Many of the cheap saw that you would assume are being used dangerously on jobsites actually pail in comparison to large cabinet saws.
I agree with your take that using the current safety features on hobbyist or jobsite saws has shown to be more effective at limiting injuries than professional woodworkers in larger shops who haven’t used the blade guards for whatever reason.
Very much this comment here!
I also watched that ol' Outlaw fella speak on this subject...and was also blown away by the 85% cabinet saw number. Then...started to think on it.
Cabinet saws are in commercial shops...high volume shops...where a guy might spend three-four hours in a row ripping down plywood for a custom cabinet job. Boring. Or...two straight hours ripping down wide boards for face frames. Or...or...or... I would hazard a guess the vast majority of those injuries are from self-induced boredom or blatant disregard for the very most basic safety rules... don't run a saw when you are tired, bored or stoned.
Oops...was that my outside voice?
Might also consider that virtually ALL industrial accidents get reported, and therefore the incidence of contractor/job site saw injuries get UNDER reported.
What struck me is where in the constitution is the enumerated power to regulate table saws? This whole argument’s premise is flawed.
@@user-wc8lu7qd2m Read the constitution. Most of that document is expressly telling the government what it may *not* regulate. Not what it is allowed to regulate. So in general, the assumption is that if it is not expressly forbidden, then it is implicitly allowed to pass regulation as it sees fit. And apparently we've become a little iffy on that 'expressly forbidden' part over the last 250-ish years, because it definitely regulates things it was expressly forbidden to regulate.
@@cavalieroutdoors6036 It's actually the opposite. For the federal government, anything the Constitution does not specifically allow is forbidden. Yes, we've ignored that since 1860, but the premise still remains.
Reminds me of the 3 wheel ATV Motorcycle ban. It only took a decade but they all but disappeared quickly.
In some countries here in Europe an apprentice is not allowed to use any woodworking machinery until they have a 2 week machine safety operating course.
The course covers such machines as table saws , sliding panel saws, spindle moulders , jointer planers and thicknesser plus other machines.
You have to pass an exam before you get to use them.
This means everyone is on the same level when it comes to safety.
Theses courses are provided by the apprentice schools and chambers of trade. And are paid for by the employers. I'm not sure if they are subsidised are not but they're probably a hell of a lot cheaper than an injury claim.
I've used a SawStop numerous times before, I find it's a great system. As you said though, the big thing is a blade guard and riving knife. Flesh sensing technology isn't going to help if that workpiece kicks, punches you in the gut and causes internal bleeding
I agree that a riving knife and guard are important, but I think it'd be fairly easy to implement a kickback-sensing system using either contact rotary encoders or a sensor similar to what optical mice use. The fastest mice scan their sensors around 8,000 times per second, which would allow detection of a kickback before the saw blade could rotate more than about 3 degrees, assuming a 4,000 rpm motor. Once a kick is detected, the AIM mechanism could be triggered, stopping the blade and limiting the energy imparted to the workpiece. The downside is that any detected kick would trash the AIM module and blade, meaning you get to shell out another $100+ every time it happens, so false positives could be a problem.
@@stevepreskitt283 I think Festool already does a form of this with their newer track saws.
Great video!!!! I'm one of those guys that got hurt because my saw didn't have a riving knife. I was in my shop very late, making my last cut on 1/4" plywood. I was rather tired and should have stopped a few cuts earlier, but I wanted to finish the cutting phase of the project, so I pressed on. I had finished the cut, but failed to clear the blade with the wood. In my mind, I started to lift my left hand to power off the saw. Unknowingly, at the same time, my right hand ever so slightly rotated counter clockwise and I felt a super sharp pain in my left wrist. The hands had moved mear fractions of an inch and the pain was intense!. The saw had grabbed the piece of wood, about 12" square, creating the classic "C" and slammed in to my left wrist. Before I could collect my senses, the affected area on my wrist started to swell and was about the size of a silver dollar and a few fractions high. I powered off the saw, went into my house, using a zip lock bag I created an ice pack and let it set for at least 30 minutes after realizing the wrist had not been broken.
Very shortly after that, I upgraded the saw with a riving knife. The mfg of the saw actually sold the saw in Europe with the riving, but it was necessary for me to get a residence of Europe to purchase to parts and ship them to me.
I did contact the mfg and questioned why they didn't sell the saw in the USA with the riving knife. I was told that to sell the saw in the USA, it would require extensive testing to get USA approval because the authorities would not accept the approval granted by the European authorities.
Because I plan to continue my woodworking hobby until I'm forced to stop, at 82 years of age, I'm upgrading to a SawStop. Yes, it is expensive, but for me, it is worth it.
I had a really old radial arm saw given to me by a family friend. Never used it and sat in the garage for a few years. Decided to throw up on FB marketplace. Got a message from a dude telling me about the recall. Messaged the company, had to show proof i cut 2 wires and then they sent me $50. So still to this day they accept recalls from decades old machines.
wow i have an old craftsman radial saw that sits on a storage rack. have not used it in 20 yrs.
Really? The same thing happened to me only when I contacted Craftsman they shipped me a box and I needed to remove the motor and ship it to them before I got my $100.
@@ScottCleve33 maybe sending it in gave you the extra $ ? For 50 bucks less, i just sent pics and then off to the recycling center. Fine with me just to get rid of it.
@@tommyozzy317 I'm saying I wasn't given that option. They told me to ship the motor back was the only way to do it.
Still have my father's Craftsman Radial Arm saw in the basement. The exact one shown. Great saw for ripping and quick cross cuts.
If I were to get a table saw, I would only buy a SawStop.
I hit the blade with 2 fingers in 1998 and am fortunate enough to still have both fingers, there is still a little nerve damage.
Saw Stop is an amazing product.
I know three guys who have got "bit" buy their saws. They had two things in common, cheap saws and removal of all safety devices. I haven't bought a saw stop yet, but I do not remove safety devices from my saws.
A guy I used to work for cut off three fingers on a table saw when he was about 60 years old and retired. During his professional career he was head cabinet maker for the Super 8 hotel chain and had made tens of thousands of cabinets using his table saws. After that accident he replaced every table saw with a SawStop saw, and I took his advice and bough one for myself too. The technology has saved my brothers fingers twice, I with never use a table saw without it, it's too easy to turn a temporary mistake into a permeant disability.
What about push sticks without guard? Is that sufficiently safe
huh. I respect your decision. I have been a carpenter for almost 20 yrs and always treat the saws with respect. No acidents
@@diggingupnorth3453 that was what my boss always said too took him about 40 years of daily use before he was careless once. I think it's possible to be very safe with a table saw don't get me wrong, but I still like the insurance policy.
You cover yourself in bubble wrap, too?
@@Jaze2022yep
Something I really like about Stumpy’s videos is that he always makes me think.
I wish I knew about the radial arm saw recall, it would’ve made some room in my garage
I got rid of my table saw 10 years ago for a panel saw. A panel saw can sit in a corner of my shop and be totally functional. A table saw has to sit in the middle of the shop for infeed and out feed.
When I first started wood working, I paid the extra money for a Saw Stop because a very minor injury was more expensive than the price of the Saw Stop vs cheap saw and medical bills. I know not everyone can make that choice but for me it was worth it.
What`s a finger worth to you? People need to strongly consider safety. Remember, there are no atheists on a crashing airplane.
All someone has to do is get into the blade one time to turn on that light 💡 bulb. I got bit and put a tooth through my thumb when a gust of wind threw sawdust into my eyes around my safety glasses. I jerked my left hand up to my face and BAM! I had swung my arm across the blade. I was off to the left side and using a push stick, but instinctive reaction happened before I realized it. It felt like my arm got hit with a steel rod; everything healed but there is still nerve damage on the top of my thumb.
I was watching an old This Old House when Norm scribed a line on a short board and then showed Bob how he was free-handing it through the table saw.
My brother was here and I said - that is stupid, never do that.
To which he said - I do it all the time.
To which I said - NEVER do it again! Not unless you want to get hurt.
People do not understand the power of a kickback.
That said - if 40,000 people are injured every year on table saws... that is like 0.004% of table saw users. Power tool makers group estimates that there are 9,000,000 table saws in use in the US.
If you want to make a REAL difference - ban bathrooms.
1,000,000 people are injured in falls in the bathroom every year, and 17,000 die.
How about we decide if we want this or a regular saw!! The government and more importantly the insurance companies need to but out of our lives!!!
Thank you for this explosive information. I agree that us older woodworkers (I’m 71 years old tomorrow) have seldom, if ever used the saw guards supplied with the new table saw that we purchased possibly years ago. Mine still sits up on a shelf in my workshop. I have looked at it over the years thinking that I should possibly use it as my table saw cannot be modified for a riving knife application. Looking at the blade guard it seems to me that in all practicality it was put together as an afterthought by the table saw manufacturer. What I did do was use your idea of a table insert with a splitter which I now use all the time. My two table saws that I have owned in my lifetime have never had their oem blade guards attached to the saw other than when the box was opened when new. Problems with blade guards are that they often interfere with the deep cuts where the kick back “serrated feathers” impede the wood from being cut. The other reason for not using the blade guard is accuracy of cut. Once your blade guard is in operation, you cannot see what you are doing! Push stick are for me the answer. However, I have never seen any YT video on how to use a blade guard. Every manufacturer has their own iteration of a blade guard for which I assume there is no industry standard. Maybe this can be addressed in one of your presentations with a “how to” demonstration. I’d say that none of us actually know how the blade guard works.
From someone who has had a kickback accident and lost a piece of my finger, let me assure you it is life changing experience (and I am a seasoned woodworker). I have since invested in a Sawstop and willingly did so. something forgotten in a discussion is that a lot of these folks that are buying low end(cheaper saws)saw don’t have years and years of experience and are a good percentage of the 40,000. nothing wrong with changes that we hand safety in our craft and it may be more expensive. Take some time to change your mindset, but it will be for the better just my my thoughts.
How is a saw stop going to change a kickback from improper use?
Doesn’t change the kickback and how it happened change the outcome of the contact.
I am reinstalling my blade guard tomorrow. Thx for the reminder.
Thanks for your response. I agree it’s not either/or. Woodworkers don’t use guards or always practice safe procedures - no matter how strong you educate or advocate for it. So redundancy in required safety equipment and the marginal expense that goes with that is hardly going to be the end of woodworking for those who desire to do it.
Great video. I have been using a 1960's Craftsman since 1970 as a hobbyist. No guards. . Yes, I have been lucky with 8 fingers/ 2 thumbs. I switched to 7.25" blade for safety and no kick backs.
I grew up using my dad's Craftsman RAS. When I got my own house ~20 years ago, he found a used one for me from one of his diner buddies. But he also learned about the recall and told me about it. I just had to send a form into Craftsman, and they sent a free blade guard (and new table parts to accommodate it). It works well, and it made me feel much safer using it, though I still treat it with the utmost respect.