Of Melkor's Fear of Varda | The Tolkien Legendarium
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- Melkor was said to fear the Vala Varda above all others. Why did he fear her? This video explores the relationship between Melkor and Varda, his love of light, and her rejection of him.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
1:03 - Of Melkor's desire for the Silmarils
1:31 - Varda & Manwë's relationship
3:57 - Varda & Melkor compared
5:44 - Melkor's lust for light and power
8:11 - Spirits of Fire
9:09 - Melkor's rejection and fear
11:12 - Varda revered / Melkor feared
► Referenced Videos:
• The Silmarils | Why Di...
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► Artwork:
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Morgoth and Varda - By Filat
Morgoth - By EKukanova
Morgoth - By EKukanova
Manwë God of the Winds - By bostonflows
Varda of the Stars - By Kip Rasmussen
Morgoth - By EKukanova
Varda, Queen of the Stars- By DymondStarr
Melkor - By EKukanova
Melkor - By formenost
Elbereth - By ElbenherzArt
Ossë - By EKukanova
The Fall - By CKGoksoy
The Music of the Gods - By KipRasmussen
Morgoth - By Benef
Ainur - By PaulHectorT
O'Elbereth, We sing to thee - By Sepi-Donne
Varda - By xeniash
Arien - Spirit of Fire - By KuraiGeijutsu
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Maps used with permission from The Encyclopedia of Arda - www.glyphweb.com
► Thumbnail art :
Elbereth - ElbenherzArt (deviantart.com/elbenherzart)
► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#tolkien #legendarium #lotr #melkor #varda
“All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady.”
-J. R. R. Tolkien
If I were to guess why, no doubt the Blessed Virgin Mary's emnity with Satan played a huge part in this 'fear of Varda'.
I always wondered why Varda was such an opponent in Melkor's eyes, except for maybe thematically, since we don't see her do much directly. But the way you put it made me see it in another way. While Manwë was ever hoping to forgive his brother, Varda knew his heart, and it was to her that Melkor's enemies always called out. In a way, she's the one kindling the inner light of every being that stands up to him. Much like Gandalf learns to rely on humble, common beings to save Middle-Earth from Sauron, it seems like Varda similarly opposes Melkor's heavy-handed need for power and control by endlessly sharing her gift, thus opposing Melkor at every turn, even at a conceptual level.
And, by the way, I really appreciate that you credit all the art you use. Sadly, this isn't always standard practice on youtube.
Dead right. Let's face facts: Manwë was useless and Varda had to take up the slack.
@@VerticalBlank You just *know* that Manwë and Nienna went on about the need to forgive even the worst of the worst while Varda and Námo sat in the corner absolutely done with Melkor's shit.
@@anglerfish4161 And after a while Ulmo was just: "you know what, Manwë can ponce around in the air but MY power flows through all the waters of Arda. Let's go."
@@anglerfish4161 Eh. You know what Gandalf had to say about pity.
When I introduced my friend to Prof. Tolkien's work's. I remember telling her why Varda is feared by Morgoth, at the end of my explanation all she can is; "So even Morgoth feared his in-laws, got it."
Are they his in laws?
@@jangolub8240 in a way, eru illuvatar designed Melkor (morgoth) to be manwe’s brother. Since Varda is manwe’s wife, she can be considered by default as melkor’s sister-in-law
I'm sure that someone has pointed out that the relationship between Varda and Melkor is echoed by that between Galadriel and Feanor. Galadriel's beauty coupled with her hair of silver and gold like the light of the Two Trees, is also coveted by Feanor. He, at least, could make the Silmarils to preserve the Light, though like Melkor, Feanor was completely obsessed with his own creation.
Greed and jealousy, not a good mix.
Ungoliant and Melkor are similar in the way that they both crave and hate light. I never realized that up until now.
Glad to see another video on all the complex thematic stuff behind Morgoth's love/hate relationship with light; this is an unjustly overlooked topic.
For someone as self-deluded as Morgoth, I think the risk of the light "revealing" him as a fraud has to have been a factor in first his determination to get Varda on his side, and later his fear and loathing of her.
It's strange that it is so overlooked because it explains a part of of why he is as he is. Do many people just think he's a big Dark Lord for the sake of it? I was trying to explain that in another comment, this idea that Varda rejecting him, because she understands him, can lead him to fear her greatly. Few, if any, would understand him more than Varda and that would terrify him.
@@TheRedBook I wonder what came first, Melkor's desire for Varda or his desire for the Flame Imperishable? I wonder if he desired Varda first, and only after her rejection did he then to off into the Void alone and then become obsessed with a quality that was so like Varda but didn't have a will and couldn't reject him (the Flame Imperishable).
@@TheRedBook Melkor didn't have the humility to accept he had done wrong. He had to keep ranting about how the world was his by right, that he was most powerful, but he knew that Varda saw through him to his core, and it shamed him.
Unrequited love is a powerful vulnerability. It is also really important to consider that this rejection was independent from the music of creation, and therefore the outcomes deriving from it are unknown to literally everyone except Eru. This rejection is one of the few interactions with beings before creation that do not involve Eru directly. While the on goings of Melkor's struggles with the others is understood to a certain degree, that desire/attraction is a complete wild card. I have a suspecting feeling the reason why Luthien was able to influence Melkor was because of this weak spot. He literally didn't suspect anything and couldn't resist the lure.
Sooo true ♥️♥️♥️♥️
I love this topic! I remember reading many years ago that Melkor feared and hated Varda above all others, and being captivated by this idea. Yet I rarely see discussion about it. So this video was quite welcome by me! 😃
I think a lot of folks don't understand this sentiment by Tolkien. They don't understand how the mightiest of the Valar, whose might eclipsed those of all the others combined, could hate and fear one single Vala, let alone a female one. I think they think of "power" much in terms that Melkor himself does, as a phenomenon of might and will, as though the nature of Melkor's hatred and fear were that Varda might come up and punch him, or give him a really bad sunburn or something.
But of course it's not like that; her power over him is by fact of her nature: If Varda were a gust of wind, how could Melkor possibly capture or control that wind? Strike it with a sword and it parts effortlessly. Trap it in a box and it falls still. It cannot be possessed by grasping hands. It can only be experienced. So it is with light, and Varda's light is no mere bauble either, no tree, no Sun, no Silmaril. Her light is the light of Creation, the light of the Flame Imperishable itself. She is a manifestation of Divine illumination. Not only could such a power never be eclipsed from within the world, but I think it could never be taken by force from within the world. Indeed, I don't think it would even have been possible for Varda to acquiesce to Melkor's desire. Her light was not hers to give in that manner; simply by existing in her own form did she serve the Divine purpose prepared for her in Arda. Melkor's whole schtick was his rebellion against the cosmic order; and I should not be surprised if the most direct representations of Ilúvatar, such as Varda, would be incapable by nature of granting Melkor's corrupt wish.
I wonder if Tolkien if in this instance Tolkien used fear in its alternative definition of "Profound reverence or awe." In that sense of the word Melkor would hate Varda but also revere her, Varda representing the one thing he wanted more than anything but could not have.
I think the best comparison is Satan and Mary. Her role in the redemption of humanity, the power of her prayer. She prays FOR the demons and they hate it, etc. I see Melkor's relationship with Varda in a similar way. Perhaps revering the power she holds? But fearing her because of it?
@@TheRedBook Where does Mary pray for demons?
I've wondered about this for...I suppose decades! Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. It's like the missing piece to a massive and complex puzzle. Awesome presentation too, as usual!
I also think it highlights something interesting about his relationship with Manwë and explains why he wouldn't fear him above his spouse. Varda seems to understand Melkor and it's part of the reason she rejects him. Manwë didn't really understand him and his nature, making it very easy for Melkor to lie to his face and deceive him. Knowing that someone would see through your lies makes them the greater threat in many ways.
@@TheRedBook
I'm in complete agreement. Manwë was, for lack of a better term, somewhat naive. Although the more appropriate comparison would be to characterize him more as Prince Myshkin in "The Idiot". Although the titular character often came off as a bit of a socially uneducated rube, the beauty about him was that he was always aware of the corruption within humanity, yet chose to carry himself with grace, compassion and empathy.
I think Manwë was perhaps...too idealistic BY FAR. To allow Melkor free reign within Aman and to not keep tabs on him to ensure that he wasn't up to his old tricks yielded catastrophic results. At least Manwë seemed to learn from this. The difference between him and Prince Myshkin was that the Prince had no illusions about how corrupt and deranged much of society and its human participants is/are, yet he refused to pass judgment and utilized his extensive empathy to not condemn, but try to uplift.
Manwë was incapable, in the beginning, of comprehending malice, cruelty, subterfuge, manipulation, disingenuousness, and suffered dearly for this. I certainly don't blame him for this. Even when he learned the hard way that these despicable qualities exist in droves, especially in his "twin", he never hardened his heart, which is why I believe he was capable of maintaining a direct conduit to Eru. He never allowed himself to become jaded or tainted. But he was forced to buck up and be a bit more vigilant.
And, despite Mandos's pronouncement of The Curse of the Noldor, that did not prevent Manwë from lending out his Eagles to the service of Turton and Gandolin, a foresight action that directly led to the longevity of the realm long enough to make sure that Eärendil was conceived and allow to grow.
Please let me know if you feel I'm off base here.
Edit: Had to change an autocorrect that misinterpresented "The Curse of the Noldor" as "the Curse of the Norfolk". Hopefully i watch things much quicker next tim!
@@lauraheffner5342 I completely agree. There is even a passage in the posthumous works, that I cannot put my finger on right now, where JRRT has Eru upbraid Manwë for his naiveté.
Personally I feel that if Ulmo had been in charge, much harm would have been averted.
@@VerticalBlank Eru put things the way they are because it was the only correct or best way to do things, just like with Melkors creation
@@Dante-vf4sd What’s your basis for that assertion? Genuine question.
melkor was never able to pervert and corrupt any of her works.
destroy them? yes. but never was he able to corrupt it like he was able to with all the others.
and as much as he desired her and her works and wanted to turn them to his will he would never be able to even touch them.
As the Silmaril scarred his hands, so did the stars pierce the darkness he laid upon the land.
Varda represents those parts of eru illuvatars mind that he was never able to comprehend.
And as much as he hated her he also was never free of his desire for her light. The Silmaril controlled him just as much as they controlled the sons of feanor.
Absolutely phenomenal, you’re one of the only channels I’ve seen that truly recognizes and explains perfectly the deep Catholic theology in Tolkien’s works. You deserve WAY more than 8k subs. Please keep growing this channel!
That's high praise indeed, considering I am not even religious :D . I try and get Tolkien's ideas across and it means a lot that I seem to get the religious ideas across well. Thanks!
I remember, prior to reverting, reading about how Tolkien based Elbereth off of Our Lady and thinking, “why on earth would Tolkien do that? Doesn’t that just reinforce the Protestant accusation that Catholics praying to Mary is really goddess worship?” Now that I’m a reverted Catholic and understand Catholic Typology (which is radically different from Christian Allegory by the way) I’m amazed by Elbereth! Tolkien has written a lot of Mariology into her.
Hail Mary full of Grace, punch the Devil in the face! :D
Her relationship with Melkor probably gives even more weight to this. With Immaculate Conception, isn't Mary born free of Original Sin? With Melkor being similar to Satan, he would fear her, and in Tolkien, it is Elbereth who is unswayed by the Satanic figure of Melkor, being Queen to the King of Earth, Manwe. Interesting thoughts Mark. Usually, the figure of Mary is attributed to Galadriel based on a famous Tolkien letter.
Yeah the description of Varda having a face shining with the light of Illuvater Himself, doesn’t call to mind any other Saint or Angel in the Catholic Faith; and as I implied above, we Catholics believe that Our Lady has the same effect on Satan and his demons that Elbereth has an Morgoth and his servants. As for Galadriel, I’ve never heard of that letter you’ve mentioned but yes, she also strikes me being a type of Mary; although when I read her history she also strikes me as a type of Eve with her desire for power and the like earlier on in the Legendarium, she strikes me as representing both the Old and New Eves.
Idk, People might be reading too much into stuff
Tolkien was also influenced by polytheistic religions
He made the Valar more like Gods than Archangels
He himself acknowledged many parallels and influences outside Christianity several times
Christianity as a simple and limited theology could only be stretched so far
Tolkien's mythology definitely seems richer and more diverse than just the Abrahamic world view
@@Phoenix-King-ozai With all due respect, you know very little about Catholic devotion to Mary, there is no way this portrayal of Morgoth’s fear Varda and Varda’s power to drive away evil, can be understood in any sense but the Catholic understanding of Our Lady and Her power to drive away the Devil and his servants.
@@Phoenix-King-ozai I do not see Tolkien taking influence from polytheistic religions, at best it is seen in the pantheon of the Valar. He mainly takes inspiration from the stories told by people like the Anglo-Saxons and Norse (whose myths were influenced by Christianity). It are these stories that make Tolkien's Middle-Earth feels so real, he was a scholar first and foremost, not an author.
The meaning of the Ainur is literally taken from the Old Testament, Holy One (i.e Psalm 89:5), as well as the New Testament were they are assigned as Powers (dynameis). The Bible tells of many elohim (divine beings, gods), which are central to the overarching story since the Fall is mainly a spiritual rebellion. People are mostly ignorant of Catholic and Ancient Hebrew cosmology. I recommend reading Angels and Demons: A Catholic Introduction. The bible Project CZcams channel also have good videos on the Spiritual Realm which are based on Dr. Micheal Heiser's books among others.
The metaphysics, theology and morality is definitely Christian, the mythology is influenced by myths of old, including pagan ones. This mix makes Tolkien's world closer to certain Chinese and African religions (which I doubt he knew much about), than polytheistic religions in Europe, which makes comparison to polytheistic religions arbitrary.
Varda was always the symbol of his inevitable and total failure.
True
In my humble opinion, the image of Varda at 6:41 is stunning. With the exception of the delicate pointy ears (lol), it seems to be an amalgamation of some of the artwork depicting the Blessed Virgin Mary as a pure and powerful queen and a giver of light (the light being her Son). Tolkien's knowledge of his Catholic faith shines through in his creation of this beautiful Vala. With that said, thanks for making these videos. They encourage me to read the books again.
Had you thought about why Melkor would fear Varda above all others? Does my explanation make sense or would you still assume Melkor feared Manwë or Tulkas to a greater degree? Share any thoughts you have about the Dark Lord. I've made some editing changes for this video, I hope they have improved the quality of the videos!
I find it hard to believe that a Melkor who did not leave Angband after returning from killing Fingolfin feared Varda. I think he obviously feared her before during and after the Ainulindale, when he still roamed Arda. I could see him fearing what Varda might do to his Army, but as for actually fearing what Varda would do to him; I don't think so. Tulkas, on the other hand, had his number. Even at the end of the War of Wrath when he hewed his feet off.
In the book of lost tales part one it is Manwë and Tulkas who he refuses entry into his abode (unsuccessfully haha!) but it's also sort of difficult to tell which of the Valar are present at the gates at the time
@@Enerdhil - The video isn't really talking about Melkor's fear of Varda being related to what damage she could do to him. It's a bit more symbolic than that. When Tolkien says feared above all others whom Eru made, that includes Tulkas, though the threat of physical violence obviously is covered by Tulkas.
@@TheRedBook
Jealousy, I believe he strongly felt. What does symbolic fear actually look like? One possibility of actual fear might make a little sense to me: If the reason he stayed underground was because he was afraid of any kind of light from Varda, sun, moon, or stars. Even then, if that were the case, how can he bear wearing the Silmarilli? You don't wear the thing you fear. If you are wearing it, you have overcome your fear of it.
@@Enerdhil - He stayed underground in an attempt to shield himself from the view of the likes of Manwe and Varda, who together could see through great darkness to witness his deeds.
Also, as I said in the video, he would love and hate something. It's like asking "Why would you wear something that caused you constant pain?" which is what the Silmarils did. Yet, we know he did wear them all the time. Why? Because it was uncontrollable. He was a slave to their light and influence.
One of the things I wonder about is the pairings of the Valar, I know it is not a 1-to-1 pairing of spouses but what would Nienna's purpose be, had Melkor behaved? She is literally the Valar of grief and mercy. Clearly Varda didn't want Melkor but perhaps Nienna did. She spoke of mercy for Melkor during his first judgement. After the battles of Morgoth, he was tossed out the doors of night, which happens to be closest to Nienna's abode in Valinor. Out of all the Valar, she is the most related to the deeds of Melkor. All the other Valar had talents and interests in the world that could have existed in the "perfect" world without Melkor's influence, except for her. This would leave Olmo out of the pairings but he seemed to not really want the company of his kind anyways.
That is a good point actually. I think that original plan for Nienna was that she laments the sundering of elves who grew weary every passing age, until their age ends and age of men begin. Even without Morgoth, they were fated to fade over time. Their burden was to create beauty in Arda, be attached to their creations and eventually lament loss of it. Rings of power, especially the three, were last effort to delay this fate.
And when it comes to men. Even with their original maximum lifespan, they were mortal and would grief the loss of loved ones. Nienna's wisdom would provide comfort and reassure that Eru takes care of all of his children, even the smallest ones. That their place was beyond the confines of the world where they could reunite with their lost kin.
I think "what if" is strictly academic, becuase it seems to me, though "free will" is thrown around by Eru Himself, and He stands back, as if to allow that free will to flow, all indeed redounds to Him, so, to me, that negates free will. "What if Nienna hooked up with Melkor" was a thing that was not going to happen, because Eru's Plan was already in place, and that pairing was not in it. This whole "free will" idea, yet all flowing down exactly to Eru's plan confounds me.
@@valentinomiller6251 Eru's plan was in place and that pairing was not in it? Keep in mind that Arda's Marring occured at the last pairing, a wedding. I say it like this because the "pairing" wasn't something explicitly planned. It also happened after Melkor had already deviated the "plan." He already tried to dominate the world and was rebuffed. It wasn't until Tulkas decided (and yes decided is correct in this situation since it is separate and not affected by the music) to come to Arda. Also, the ainur, as individuals, do not know the entirety of the music. So a "choice" may not be one actually but you do not have the script so it becomes moot point (you still have to act). As for the "plan", let me speak metaphorically with music. While the certain elements of arda (physical matter), nothing was added or removed. Think of a piece of music like a symphony. If I rearranged all the notes, parts, and instruments around the music would turn out very differently and would most certainly be unrecognizable from the other one. Of course this ends up being conjecture, we are trying to conceive of a world that we have no way referencing. Everything I have said was based off of their demonstrated personality/acts. Even before the marring of Arda, for example, Ulmo preferred to be by himself. From that fact, we ask why? The purpose of which is not to solve it but to wonder. It is a mystery, not a puzzle.
Now that’s some deep analysis! Great content as always!
That painting of Melkor at 10:20 is AMAZING.
YOU are also very, VERY entertaining to listen to. Some things are just worth listening to.
Thank you :)
And yes, that painting by Benef is one of my favourite Melkor pieces. It actually looks like he's in pain.
Oh so this evening's going to be a nice one ! So happy to see this, after a long day of work, it fits just perfect. And regarding last video's announcement , keep your head up and good luck with the things to come! Remember, there's still some good in this world mister Red Book .
Oh yeah, I think I didn't word it properly. I was surprised people thought I was quitting! My schedule will just change and hopefully the quality of the videos!
@@TheRedBook That is a welcome relief 😀
but you never had a long day of Work. ( laughs in Pippin )
He feared Varda for many reasons, his desire amongst
Outstanding presentational updates.
Took me a while and I think they will be a bit cleaner in the next video but I am happy with the changes! Glad you like them as well :)
This artwork you have chosen really brings the characters to life
You got the juice! Thank you for the masterful presentation.
Thanks again, Alan!
Just really really great Tolkien content. I recently discovered the channel and am so far loving every minute of it. It’s a Tolkien channel for Tolkien lovers, not some arbitrary channel rehashing common knowledge for people who maybe saw the movies and are a bit curious about the Legendarium but who can’t be bothered with the reading. Also fantastic delivery, capturing the “epicness” without any of the pretentious (and often incorrect) use of archaic language that other channels attempt.
Thanks, it's great to hear that many people enjoy this type of content. It will probably never be as big as the movie tie-in content or the summary/bio content but there seems to be an audience really looking for some in-depth material. Hoping I can be one of the channels that helps in the case :D
Just a great comment. Wholehearted agreement! Now going to re-read The War of the Jewels.
Just found your channel and subscribed love your videos keep up the good work
Happy you've found the channel. Plenty more to come :D
Excellent video Red Book!
Thanks Matthew :D I was going to say "Call me Red" but I'd be Morgan Freeman from Shawshank Redemption or a commie from the 50's. Steven might be ok!
@@TheRedBook So be it, Steven! 🙂
Next Level Tolkien. Brilliant! I cant' stop binging these!!
Thanks :D!
This was a particularly good one
Thanks Anthony!
The opening description of Varda gives me goosebumps.
Great music
Amazing quality of content
Thank you 🙌
came across your channel through a reddit thread on History of the Ages/ Broken Sword,, fantastic content!! subscribed!
Thanks a lot! Out of interest, was this an old thread or a recent one? Do you have a link :)
These are so high quality, relaxing, in-depth and thought provoking. It's ridiculous the algorithm hasn't picked you up properly yet!
It seemed to in the last week. I had 1500 subs last week and was getting about 10 a day. Grew quite a lot in that time!
@@TheRedBook That's sick man!! That's probably how I found you - Once you get the algorithms on side onside things should start to grow on their own, you've got quality and quantity and you will be rocking me to sleep at night for the next month at least 🤣
@@oporia2674 I try to get a video out a week now, which seems to work for my schedule. There will be plenty more! A few people have said they sleep to them, I hope it doesn't mean they are boring to listen to haha.
@@TheRedBook The very opposite mate, trying to get to sleep is when my mind thrashes and wails and this is the perfect amount of soothing tone, yet complex and interesting to completely entertain my mind so that it can stop worrying about my real life and find an escape which allows it to relax and then hopefully, sleep., but they are jut as enjoyable to watch in the afternoon at my computer after a rough day.
@@oporia2674 I actually listen to the audiobooks I use in these videos as I'm going to sleep ( i have terrible sleep problems of my own!). I think I've went round them dozens of times since 2013 . So, I know the feeling!
Another great video and topic 📕👍🏻
📕
@@TheRedBook 😁 I offer it to you freely! Keep up the great work
You know I wonder how frequently Varda and Manwë watch out from Taniquetil - I mean, they apparently can't be in two places at one time and sometimes appear outside of the mountain. Also, it sounds really depressing to hear all the cries of anguish suffocated in the dungeons of Angband, is Varda never overwhelmed by such a sensation?
By the way, I guess they are able to 'only' observe one area at a time, so they will always miss events happening in other places while watching one of them. This may explain why Manwë still sends forth Eagles - the Queen and he are not omniscient, though close to it.
Another btw... black holes are also stars, even though they consume light, looking at you, Melkor and Ungoliant 🤭
Regarding the primary topic of this great video... it's a lot to ponder on 😁 One of these videos that will land on my rewatch playlists.
Hello again. Sorry, I didn't get a notification for this comment.
I think your first comment does lean towards a discussion on the Problem of Evil. Perhaps not in terms of a "God", as in Eru, but the "gods" - Valar. If they have the power to stop such suffering then why don't they? I have spoken about the Valar and their role in one other video but it's a very weighty topic...
I suspect you are right in terms of what they observe. Remember that Ungoliant roamed in dark lands and they never knew of her being there, or Melkor reaching her and making plans with her. Plus, their "power" is enhanced when they are upon the Holy Mountain.
Good idea there about black holes. Almost like the anti-Varda there, consumption of light.
I'm happy with the video. I had hoped it would do better but it's the kind of quality I am aiming for!
Oh, I've extracted the audio from my favourite of them to my phone and listen ever since I discovered this channel.
Tulkas: "Am I nothing to you?"
Haha, he certainly did greatly fear Tulkas. Perhaps by that time his fear was less spiritual in nature since he had become able to be physically defeated.
@@TheRedBook I like that theory. My theory was that perhaps the statement that "Melkor feared Varda most of all" was given before Tulkas ever arrived on the scene. Perhaps Morgoth had no prior knowledge as to the existance of Tulkas before he came to Arda.
I think the Dark Lord was experiencing two very different types of fear in regards to Varda vs Tulkas. Tulkas is the type that would trigger the flight mechanism (fight or flight) in Melkor. Varda is the type that would leave a persistent cold fear in the back of his mind at all times. Tulkas threatens obivion by means of physically destroying Melkors body and banishing him to the outer void. Varda threatens to undermine everything Melkor believes in, stands for and would ever aspire to be. A sort of oblivion of the very essance that is Melkor. While Melkor might not run in terror at the very sight of Varda, it is she who haunts his dreams and leaves him with a lingering dread.
Juicy theories in this comment section.
@@Lord_Warden_of_the_Marches - Said it better than I could, I agree with this analysis. I think I had a back and forth for 10 comments with someone who wouldn't accept that he feared Varda most but you have explained what I was trying to explain
The stuff on Morgoth are my favourites. It examines the very core of Tolkiens imagination.
Melkor's psyche sounds like the ring's effects on Smeagol.
9:03 - I've read the book, twice but hearing your description of it... I think I'm with Melkor
Interesting, can you explain why?
@@TheRedBook ok, I said that because something in your telling of it made me think of the saying "Those not embraced by the tribe, will burn it down to feel its warmth."
You humanised Satan 🤣
Ive watched all your videos. You are underappreciated and undersubscribed.
Glad you are enjoying the content. I hope more people do discover the channel as well.
Intriguing video
Your voice and accent/pronuciations are entrancing and made for this. I discovered you about 3 days ago and am in love with this channel. Are you Scottish or Irish? Tales of the first age get my absolute attention. Keep up the fantastic work. Also, the ambient music is perfect against your storyteller voice.
Thank you :D happy you have found the channel! And yes, I am Scottish. I'll have another video out this coming week and it will be a First Age figure as well!
@@TheRedBook your voice is just so, among other things, fitting. I never want to see your face for fear of being disappointed. 😆
Very very good as always. Favourite lore channel hands down. I have yet to see even the slightest hint of the usual oversimplifications or head canon that seem to plague some of the bigger channels. Very competent. Choice of subjects always on point. The list could go on and on. Bravo!
Thank you :) . I think because I speak of interpretation, it allows me a bit of room to speculate on my own but I still think my speculation doesn't stray too far from what fits based on the text. I agree about oversimplification in some other content but I always say that all types of content should exist. If it was all a bit more in-depth then we'd probably pick some channels and say "They are MORE in-depth than the others". At least this kind of stuff has an audience even if it s dwarfed by those just wanting character bios or summaries of stories.
it seems that the dynamic about Melkor fearing Varda´s power as straightforward direct from Illuvatar himself on her, more than what is within either Manwe and/or Tulkas, no matter if they actually defeated him, is something similar as the situation happening later between Sauron against Galadriel mightyness too. (Which was awesomely done at the Hobbit trilogy no matter if that was mostly a fanfiction plot-device than strictly based on Tolkien lore, because well, it was finally shown what could have happened about that situation on both polar opposites of pure light and pure darkness meeting each other once for all in direct confrontation, and well it was pretty awesome anyways!!)
Therefore... one might wonder what could have happened then between Varda standing upon Melkor herself, and that was somehow the idea why Melkor requested the help of some actual better polar opposite of the same-nature as her into Ungoliant, as she was female too though evil and therefore the proper better foe against her best works as the Trees and the Fountains in Vallinor.
My lord his voice is so relaxing
I can’t wait until your channel fully blows up, because it’s become one of my genuine “go-to” channels for Tolkien lore. It’s just wonderfully researched, AND wonderfully presented.
Top-tier content. Thank you 🙂
Thanks, Benjamin. Always great to hear some positivity about the channel. Makes me wish I hadn't taken so long to start it out of fear of people hating it :/
Amazing!
Thank you! Cheers!
Melkor/Morgoth desired Varda, Arien, and even Luthien. What do you think of the predatory and sexual overtones of his lust? If the Valar could marry, I think his malice wasn't just for elemental-spiritual dominance, but even for possessing physical intimacy. I doubt a devout Catholic would ever have intended to incorporate such depraved themes, but the characterisation certainly leads to this interpretation, no?
Definitely possible, though you will know that Tolkien seemed to change the text when it was blatantly meaning that something like rape was involved. With the Arien quote I provided in the video, it's a very different reading than what we ended up with. He "ravaged" her to attempt to seize her power and to debase her. This fits with the personality of Melkor. One who would tie himself to the physical world would most likely seize his dominance in physical terms as well. I wish Tolkien had kept more of this in so we could understand the depravity of Melkor even more. Not just spiritual violence but physical. It's another corruption of something pure and good and definitely not above Melkor to attempt.
@@TheRedBook I remember reading the portion of The Silmarillion where Bergen and Luthien confronted Morgoth in Angband. I recall reading that he was “inflamed with lust” at the mere sight of Luthien, and wanted her to humour him with her best song before he “ravished” her. The thought is terrifying.
@@MistaGify Yes, that passage really stands out for me too. It makes sense that Melkor above others would debase himself in this way as well. Nothing is safe from his corruptive influence. Others would look at Luthien and admire her beauty, but he has his thoughts turn black immediately.
Oh no, Tolkien’s villains absolutely do engage in such depravity: and not just the outright villains either. He confirmed that orcs do rape captives: and half-orcs are mentioned in LotR 🤮. Sauron’s actions definitely have predatory sexual overtones (at least, and they may not be just overtones). Brodda the Easterling forcibly marries Aerin, Maeglin tries to rape Idril (and only doesn’t succeed because Tuor intervenes). Celegorm was planning to rape Lúthien (yeah…good luck with that dude). Tolkien intended his Legendarium to reflect the real world, and he was very aware that sexual predators exist and indeed are unfortunately common. It is not pious to pretend that depravity doesn’t exist: all that does is insult everyone who has been it’s victim.
Well it's also in classical mythologies such as the raping of Persephone.
Excellent
Cheers nikos :)
The Virgin Mary of the Tolkien universe.
Cheers.
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VERY nicely imagined and executed. Varda= the stars and all matter evolved from them; Melkor is a Black Hole, lusting for and swallowing the Light. Eru made both. All stars die, and what happens (ultimately) to a black hole? Eru knows.
How could Morgoth's servants bear the light of the Silmarilli in his crown? Wasn't it blinding and painful for them to even look at Morgoth?
Almost certainly yes, and no doubt he wished it so
They wouldn't be able to bear it but as Mason Duke says, it would appeal to Morgoth that they wouldn't. He stole them, displayed them on a crown, but then retreated to dark depths to wear them. Like others, he grew jealous and possessive of them. He wanted others to know he had them but also wanted the light for himself and the Silmarils as his own. So, he would still hide them from the world while proudly wearing them. Such is the strange relationship he had with them and the twisted mind he had at this time.
@@TheRedBook That’s the thing about Greed. The more you have, the more protective/possessive/jealous you become. Trapped between wanting more and not losing a drop of what you have. Btw great videos👌
Presumably that would be the point.
Morogths servants wailing before him would be the order of the day in the foul pits of Angband
Tolkien was a devout Catholic. To understand Elbereth, study the Blessed Virgin Mary.
"...we saw another flash of lightening, and a lady dressed in white, shining brighter than the sun, giving out rays of clear and intense light, just like a crystal goblet full of pure water when the fiery sun passes through it. We stopped astounded by the Apparition. We were so near that we were in the light that encircled her, or which she radiated, perhaps a meter and a half away" - the first Fatima apparation as described by Sister Lucia.
More of Lucia's words:
“We were bathed in a heavenly light that appeared to come directly from her hands. The light’s reality cut into our hearts and our souls, and we knew somehow that this light was God, and we could see ourselves embraced in it. By an interior impulse of grace we fell to our knees, repeating in our hearts: ‘Oh, Holy Trinity, we adore You. My God, my God, I love You in the Blessed Sacrament."
Come on and shut up!
No thanks.
@@henrique5231 the glass plates from photographs taken at the time actually show a classic ufo. Damn near impossible to find them now but investigators have managed to see them. The Vatican now has them under lock and key; make of that what you will.
The Brightest lights cast the Darkest shadows!
it seems that what Melkor was seeking for over all in the very first place to create his own world on his ideas against Eru Illuvatar´s, was shared into Varda as she didn´t seeked power for herself but to help into the creation of those new ideas, neverthless, she shared that power alongside Manwe for he could direct or instruct into a constructive-directive way chanelling Varda´s power which she might not being able to handle all alone herself anyway, pretty much implying a complementary opposites dual balance on a both genders-couple, rather than relying into having and using all that power alone on one single being, something that neither males and even less females could do alone, as it leads into a destructive darker way as latter happened to Sauron, Melkor and Ungolliant - she in fact was more feared at once time than any of the dark lords, as if her female chaotic creative nature did actually more trouble than any of the Dark Lords who were anyway attempting to build some sort of order on their own anyway.
That was pretty much a very biased sexist stereotype idea very straightforward on Christian Cathollic formation ideology of Tolkien relying within his mythology, eventhough later on this biased view has had finds some empirical objective and common-sense background explaining better why when females got into full- absolute political and social power over others, they might got into total polar opposite extremes of choice and action, pretty much relying into pure irrational emotions than into a more objective views which happened more into male-brain common neurological processes. It´s an evolutionary biological trait reinforced by culture and history on society working dynamics, but pretty much the main idea about females going faster from best and to worst when handling that position of power alone, is very much grounded and pervassed elsewhere and not just on Western culture ideas, so Tolkien just reuse the concept on his own work, about setting up into complementary-opposite pairs to handle better that power dynamic than into one individual alone, and furtherly less on a female alone, i.e. that´s why Ungoliant was more dangerous than Melkor ever became actually.
Shine/Light envy, conflicts have started over less for sure.
Tolkien: *doesn't like allegories*
everyone here: Varda is Virgin Mary.
Difference between inspiration, applicability, and allegory. In a famous BBC interview from 1964 (available on CZcams) he even mentions this similarity himself. It's no accident that he makes the figure revered by the Elves similar somewhat to "Our Lady" - it shows what it is he admires as a person. Just like others say good characters have "Christ-like qualities" , why wouldn't they?
It's not "mere" allagory... Its more like a symbolic fractile of the same essential pattern. The Christian Mythos - sans let's say, sectarian and worldly baggage. Tolkien is the the ultimate Jesus smuggler... To the point where woke blue hairs have his sigil tattooed on their arms. It's truly Christian way of spreading the Holy Spirit.
Varda is a TYPE of Our Lady, not an allegory for Her.
You waited your whole life to type that in didn't you
Where do you get your artwork from
You'll see the source pop up when an image pops up. Also in my description.
I think in a philosophical way that Melkor even with all his deeds was a necessary evil in the cosmic scheme of things. Eru had changed his song while creating the world in order to bring about what they were all manifesting. I say necessary because all the Valar and what not are offshoots or aspects of Eru. Melkor doesn’t win, he just becomes another piece in Eru’s ultimate plan for the universe.
Could you make a video of what if melkor never rebelled and how would middle earth be with that happening
Thanks for the suggestion. I probably can't do that because it's such a fundamental part of the entire Legendarium. Absolutely everything would be different.
@@TheRedBook that's Is why I wanted to challenge you on this if you can't no one can lol
@@keithcole8536 - It reminds me of a question I answered on an old site I used to write about Tolkien on. They asked what the difference would be if Melkor was the good guy and the rest of the Valar were the evil ones. It would basically be the same story if you think about it but with the roles reversed.
I'm sure I could think up something with your question but it would just be my own story I guess. Middle-earth wouldn't be marred, there would be no need for a second Music of the Ainur, even Elves and Men may not exist since they came with the late themes following Melkors distruption of the original theme.
@@TheRedBook I know it's similar I seen it as well but I just would have liked to challenge you to this one since it's a good to make you better as a story writer and I'm looking forward to see how you tackle it
Why?, the sun she used the light of the tress and a powerful miar to make a light that she knew would keep him in check and dont forget the star of Earundial ,he knew what her power could and would eventually lead to his doom
Yet together they work in symbiosis
One counters the other
Yet they do not exist without each other
Certainly and that is probably reflected in Eru's own words to Melkor and the Valar, the creation of things not imagined. There has to be a conflict, some disparity, for creative results.
After Varda who thwarts Hiim at Every turn.Melko Feared and Hated the Sea and its Lord Ulmo.For He could Not Control it at All Nor the Life in It.
Of course! Melkor would hate anything he didn't have control over.
@@TheRedBook Which explains why he essentially hates everything except himself and his servants.
@@grassblock7668 He'd even hate them eventually. Tolkien telling us that he'd destroy them if he managed to destroy all his enemies. His servants are a means to an end.
@@TheRedBook Oh yeah true, he just wants to be the only existing thing in all of creation then
Melkor and varda have a weak mirror in the way smeagol both loved and hated the one ring.
Varda is in her essence the very antithesis of Melkor/Morgoth-in her holy use of Light, or in her “Light-ness,” as Eru intended Light to “be”, her power is the absolute negation of Melkor’s essence, in every way. This is made all the worse for Melkor because, while he craves Light, his hunger for it is warped and twisted. This craven thirst for something even he cannot begin to understand (as Eru created it) is in itself a primordial lie, a cosmic note of incomprehensible discord. She may not possess the brute force of Tulkas or Manwe or Ulmo, but the essence of her power is nevertheless his greatest threat. I think that Varda is a literary amplification of Tolkien’s Catholic devotion to the Virgin Mary, the simple woman who rejected darkness, yet who by grace became a willing vessel of the Light that obliterates evil/darkness. An unexpected power that should not, in the estimation or measurement of the world, have any power against the brutal, elemental forces represented by Morgoth, Sauron, etc. Yet Varda is, in the simplicity of her Luminousness, the mightiest destruction of all Powers that seek to twist Eru’s ultimate plan for creation. Melkor was wise to fear her … and damned to lust after her from before Time itself.
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It seems to BE a battle of Wills and then the thoughts brought from those choices...that make in the BEGGINING what they truly are and Will be.Like Eru's plan after all...and HE does say more or less that in the end(as in the beggining)evil Will become Good,even if thinks?!,it wont...it seems the plan or the MUSIC of the creation somehow Will go acording to Iluvatar's wish...like goodness prevailing...but some how,giving a view of all this thruw ages...Battles,lives,loves,but everyone coming again INTO One...Eru Iluvatar...in His all will
Morgoth was the OG incel
It's like someone that wants to be a celebrity, but they become a pretender and fake it by being a jerkoff on the internet, and making other people miserable. They once knew someone that they had a foolish crush on who they wanted to possess, now she's the big dog and he's a criminal.
Does this mean Melkor was a simp or an r nice guy
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I never really thought about it; Melkor hated Varda because she rejected him, and so he came to hate the element she was associated with. Hated his brother Manwe as well, because she chose him. Melkor didn't take it like a man, and came to hate the woman he loved because she didn't love him back. The way he allowed this to sour his soul, weakening his spirit from within, prefigures his weakening himself physically, so to speak - mutilating himself, really - by passing his power into the world in his vain attempt to take by force something that isn't his by right.
He loved her, came to hate her when she rejected him, and feared her afterward; he knew that she still saw through to his heart and he couldn't hide any of it from her. Maybe from Manwe; never from Varda.
It's never stated in any of the books that he loved her... this is just you making up your own head-canon...
He should have feared Tulkas more!
I assume you're commenting on Melkor's fear of Varda. If so, then you're comparing psychological fear to physical fear or threat of violence, which can be apples and oranges. Additionally, you're filtering what you think Melkor should more fear through your own understanding and experiences, which are biased. For instance: I was once arrested and spent a night in jail; I was scared and disappointed and all of that showed on my face and in my posture, while others who were in their second home looked and me and laughed, cuz they could tell I didn't "belong" there. My point is what frightens you is based on your own experiences and can't be used as a blanket to be thrown over everyone else's.
Well, just video game it:
Melkor’s Power: Corruption
Varda’s Power: Holy
Edit: Wait, he raped Arien!?
In another version of the tale he did. At a time when the sun was going to be important in terms of the conception of Arda.
@@TheRedBook Goodness!!
Prime Melkor didn't fear anybody cause he simply didn't have to , what happened after doesn't really matter since he was heavily depowered
What do you mean it "doesn't really matter" ? Matter in what way? Melkor's downfall is a fundamental part of the entire Legendarium, of course what happened "after" matters. It's the tale itself.
Nah, Melkor didn't want to deal with Elbereth because he would not accept the idea of absorbing all of her energy and becoming fat like Ungoliant did after that gluttonous spider drank from the Wells of Varda.
The Lord of All wasn't afraid of some stupid star lady, he was afraid of obesity and we should all follow his example!
Ungoliant was swollen (like a tick that is not promptly removed), not fat.
P.S. Your fat shaming hurts Bombur's feelings. 😉
"Your mum is so fat she would satisfy Ungoliant's insatiable hunger" ?
If Ungoliant had not fled after consuming the trees light she could have had Varda as a dessert.
Melkor probably should've invested a little more fear into Tulkas. js
By the time Tulkas was able to Vala-handle Melkor, any of them could have!
Tulkas would like a word with you
Different kind of fear.
Why is Eru such a buzzkill? How much suffering was caused by Melkor lashing out randomly in every direction as he grasped for the Flame Imperishable when the big guy could've been a decent father and passed his gifts to his offspring alongside the wisdom to use it? Call me a dirty apostate but I can't help but permanently side with Melkor, even in his diminished state of corruption, his sins are the products of an uncaring father and even in that corruption he only really seeks to emulate Eru. Sauron is a glorified middle manager who is the kind of banal evil that all decent men can rally against, but Melkor/Morgoth is a much deeper and more sympathetic character.
Melkor had free will, everything he becomes is the product of his own pride in turning against his father and wanting everything for himself and in his own way, none of it is to do with Eru.
Lol Melkor was a Simp xD
melkor fear a women? He was second after eru... so i doubt it.
@@Lily-rz8mg Well did they face each other?
Incel
I hope you mean Melkor and not me 😂
@@TheRedBook lol, definitely Melkor. :)
@@artemismoonbow2475 You never know with CZcams comments haha, had to ask :D
@@TheRedBook Well, now that I have your attention. I love your channel. I just found it yesterday and I like that it is more than just "canon lore." Tolkien is worthy of analysis. He did mythology, not allegory, and mythology is psychology. Cheers!
@@artemismoonbow2475 - Thanks :D that's pretty much why I started the channel. If I was going to make videos that had already been made, I don't think I'd have bothered but there aren't many channels doing this kind of material. So, I made a go of it!