Karmapa Controversy part1.avi
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- čas přidán 12. 04. 2011
- A documentary by Rishi Jindal exploring the debate around the death and reincarnation of His Holiness the 16th Karmapa. The film, made in the early 1990's, offers a rare glimpse into the often contradictory and confused view put forth by Shamar Rinpoche regarding the legitamacy of His Holiness Ogyen Trinley Dorje, the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa.
Surely The controversy is for the Tibetans to argue over and sort out. For the rest of us the concern should be in the knowledge of the Dharma and the standard of the teachings that the individual monk gives after graduation. The rest is just arguments over claims of property.
Shamar Rinpoche speaks logically and believably. Very intelligent. Tai Situ does not give an impression of trustworthiness. Trunks full of Yuan, neatly stacked and organized have been found in monasteries under his control.
to the narrator... karmapa is the supreme head of the karma kagyue but not the supreme head of the kagyue. different kagyue schools have their own supreme head.
very disheartening to see the controversies...
Just get the teaching of dharma whoever you follow. Let the time decide about future. We Tibetans don’t worry or debate on this. I think it would be better for everyone, if our non Tibetan dharma friends also stop debating.
The controversy has been over for 20 years Ogyen Trinley is the real one. Sure, the Dalai Lama said there could be 2 Karmapas. He was being nice. But, let everyone make their own choice, that's fine.....meanwhile
Wasn’t even born when that controversy happened. But growing up in Rumtek made me understand what all really occurred. I’m happy after so long the TRUTH is being unfold bit by bit. Someone smart rightly said it.. “don’t follow the mass cuz most is the time “M” in mass is silent”
WildHeart Gupc Tsoul.... So are you going to say the Dali Lama is wrong? The second highest if not the highest lama in Buddhism?? Whom recognized Gyalwang as the Karmapa? Do you understand the result that would occur to peoples faith in Buddhism?
Your belief or disbelief in rebirth is inconsequential and meaningless if you do not practice wisdom and compassion. Before doctrine and dogma comes a heart born from the urge toward peace and the end of suffering.
Here we talk about Karmapa, and the name of Dalai-Lama is a bit too much said, never in the Vajrayana Buddhisme histoiry of Tibet, Dalai-Lama had anything to say in the recognition of a high ranked lama in the three others schools. In 1959 he started to join the four school in one (he's own of course!). Started problems between Dalai-Lama and the 16th Karmapa who doesnt want to mix politic and Buddhism. But it seems that some Tibetans miss some knowledge abot the story of their country, and mix the Role of the Dalai-Lama in the former Tibet country, and who's this man now, just the head leader of the Gelugpas school! WAKE UP! PLEASE! There's not many places in the world excepet China of course where the 17th Karamapa is known as Orgyen Thayé Dorje, but most of them accept without any hesitation Trinaly Tahyé Dorje as the rela 17th Karmapa, and the sneaky way of the dalai-lama explaining that noy will be two karmapa in the Kagyu school, is a good example of his hidden goal, a take over on Buddhist tibetan schools.
Jean-Pierre The 16 th Karmapa was mentored and founded by the 11 th Kenting Tai Situ Rinpoche . That’s why the 16 the Karmapa Ranjung Rigpe Dorji wrote a poem of praise to the 11th Kenting Tai Situ Rinpoche when he passed and said “ may we meet again and again “ . So in terms of Tulku Thaye dorji , how did they meet ? Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorji has the support of two heart sons of the Karmapa whereas Thaye Dorji has support only from one heart son . Present Jamgon Kongtrul tulkus can’t be involved in this issue because previous incarnation passed away in an accident . The highest moral authority in Tibetan Buddhism in the whole Himalayan region from Tibet , Ladakh , Bhutan , Nepal , India is HH the Dalai Lama and even he gave his recognition to HH Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorji . Even the Tibetans within Tibet in the main monastic seat of all the previous Karmapas in Tsurphu recognize Karmapa Ogyen along with the monks in Rumtek , the exile seat of the Karmapas in India .
The decision of the recognition of the Karmapa lies not with westerners but the Tibetan community from which the tradition itself originated 900 years ago and the Tibetan government in India representing the Tibetan people as well as the Chinese government along with HH the Dalai Lama , the spiritual head of the Tibetans recognize HH Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorji . So I don’t understand this whole controversy . Many high Tibetan masters have already said it and will say it again , there is only one Karmapa and that is Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorji and all the major political and spiritual power players have already confirmed this and major has rested this issue . As for the large number of Europeans and it’s centers that came under Tulku Thaye Dorji due to the fact the late Shamarpa was the nephew of the 16 th Karmapa, it is automatic that they took control of all the European seats . Trinley Thaye Dorji is a great Buddhist teacher and indeed a very highly realized Sakya tulku but not the Karmapa as stated by HE Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentshe Rinpoche . As far as we the Buddhist practitioners of the Himalayan region are concerned , we follow the words of HH the Dalai Lama .
As far as we the indigenous practitioners are concerned , Europeans all can appoint a yellow haired and blue eyed hippie from the street who smokes crack and LSD as their own next Karmapa we don’t care but it will never be recognized by the Tibetans and all Vajrayana practitioners in the Himalayan region . I don’t know what is happening with all the Europeans meddling into the reincarnation of the Karmapa and the Chinese meddling into the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama but both seem to have lost their minds .
A dumb conspiracy theory. Maybe you don't like vaccines neither, do you?
Precisely!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
We have seen the letter. It is signed and it is stamped with His Holiness Karmapa's seal. So what are all these lies about it not being signed? Ridiculous. Vain men just seeking a bit of attention and a chance to blab self-importantly. Shame on them.
The video is quite old..
The 16 th Karmapa was mentored and founded by the 11 th Kenting Tai Situ Rinpoche . That’s why the 16 the Karmapa Ranjung Rigpe Dorji wrote a poem of praise to the 11th Kenting Tai Situ Rinpoche when he passed and said “ may we meet again and again “ . So in terms of Tulku Thaye dorji , how did they meet ? Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorji has the support of two heart sons of the Karmapa whereas Thaye Dorji has support only from one heart son . Present Jamgon Kongtrul tulkus can’t be involved in this issue because previous incarnation passed away in an accident . The highest moral authority in Tibetan Buddhism in the whole Himalayan region from Tibet , Ladakh , Bhutan , Nepal , India is HH the Dalai Lama and even he gave his recognition to HH Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorji . Even the Tibetans within Tibet in the main monastic seat of all the previous Karmapas in Tsurphu recognize Karmapa Ogyen along with the monks in Rumtek , the exile seat of the Karmapas in India .
The decision of the recognition of the Karmapa lies not with westerners but the Tibetan community from which the tradition itself originated 900 years ago and the Tibetan government in India representing the Tibetan people as well as the Chinese government along with HH the Dalai Lama , the spiritual head of the Tibetans recognize HH Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorji . So I don’t understand this whole controversy . Many high Tibetan masters have already said it and will say it again , there is only one Karmapa and that is Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorji and all the major political and spiritual power players have already confirmed this and major has rested this issue . As for the large number of Europeans and it’s centers that came under Tulku Thaye Dorji due to the fact the late Shamarpa was the nephew of the 16 th Karmapa, it is automatic that they took control of all the European seats . Trinley Thaye Dorji is a great Buddhist teacher and indeed a very highly realized Sakya tulku but not the Karmapa as stated by HE Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentshe Rinpoche . As far as we the Buddhist practitioners of the Himalayan region are concerned , we follow the words of HH the Dalai Lama .
As far as we the indigenous practitioners are concerned , Europeans all can appoint a yellow haired and blue eyed hippie from the street who smokes crack and LSD as their own next Karmapa we don’t care but it will never be recognized by the Tibetans and all Vajrayana practitioners in the Himalayan region . I don’t know what is happening with all the Europeans meddling into the reincarnation of the Karmapa and the Chinese meddling into the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama but both seem to have lost their minds .
Thank you for the valuable information. Can you tell me more about Khyentse Rinpoche's remark about the Karmapa? Source or a website where Rinpoche said that?
We in Bhutan have our own system. We don't equate any lamas of our country with anyone in the world including Dalai Lama. We respect Dalai Lama but don't follow his instructions!
Dzongsar jamyang khyentse never made that statement, I know your source must be " trust me bro"
Regarding recognition and confirmation from hh dalai Lama, it was never necessary, karmapa lineage started before hh dalai Lama.
Very true, im from Ladakh, i know the 17th Karmapa orgyen trinlay dorje is genuine because he found the 4th jamgon with all the conditions met precisely, unmistakenly a powerful being 🙏🏼
Whatever dichotomy appears, these great saints protect the Dharma regardless of external appearances. And whatever appearance they create, whatever situation they create, is for the student's benefit to use and really put into practice the Dharma teachings. The Middle Way is clearly shown right between two opposites, between contradiction. Ignorant crows squawk over nothing here and there, but the Buddha sits unmoved far beyond them. Watch and see. All this will disperse like clouds in the sky.
what do you mean by protecting the Dharma?
The guy at 12:00 speaks about taking the Dali Lama to court... I wonder what type of court they have in Buddhism or Tibet? How would the Court in Tibet recognizes the laws of Buddhist religious declarations of lamas? I don't know much about the Tibetan country. But I think there is some separation between religion and the law of the country.
Tai Situ looks all sketchy, and it is funny that he is sitting right in front of an image of 16th Karmapa, but Situ's face is covering up Rigpe Dorje's. Just listen to the teachings to be able to tell. I think it is very good to have a decoy Karmapa in the hands of the Chinese tho, so they will not be able to assert any negative influence over our lineage, as they have done with the Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama. . .
Don’t insult our lineage masters . Go back to practicing your abrhamic religions if you have nothing good to say
@@ugyen1955 What's your problem? He absolutely told the truth. Your mind seems to me is full of hate and insulting people... I wish you peace in mind. 😘
@kn.3996 where do you see hate? To disagree with someone doesn't mean hate!
Every body has Buddha nature. Even though a high guru who reincarnated, he (she) will be like other person. He/she might have better quality. However, quality means nothing unless he/she manifests the quality into action for the benefit of other. I am sorry for my ignorance, but shouldn't we respect a person who gained high spritual quality in this live time regardless who he/she was in his/her past live? Sometimes I think if somebody told someone that she/he is a reincarnation of guru or bodhisatva, it might make her/him becoming delusive person. I believe among the followers of Dalai lama or Karmapa there might be people who have better spiritual quality then the Dalai lama or karmapa themselves. I do not mean to insult anybody, its just my opinion that comes up after I learned Buddhism (excluding the tradition, culture or rituals).
im very confused by this video.what is going on
the sixteenth Karmapa didn't leave a letter telling where he would be reborn. after many years of inaction one of the four "heart sons" forged a letter. shamarpa suggested they get it tested for handwriting authenticity--a reasonable request--but the guy who "found" it said it was "too precious and holy to be tested." so then the guy who forged the letter presented the kid who he claimed was the new Karmapa. the guy who wanted the letter tested went and found a second sixteenth Karmapa. in the meantime the forger faxed the dalai lama (who historically wouldn't have any more say about who was picked as Karmapa than a republican president would pick the democratic candidate for president). the dalai lama faxed back "as long as all karma kagyu high lamas are in agreement, okay." well, they weren't in agreement. but the forger had his kid declared to be the real one. so there are two karmapas. the lineage split. most of the lineage went with the one who was picked first--the one the forger put forward. only a tiny percentage went with the second one. later the second one announced he was marrying and even had a kid. the whole thing was a big mess all around and I personally have no faith in the whole reincarnating lama practice. I think this proved it's not real and likely never has been. they find smart kids and bring them up to be that and in the old days it worked out okay.
@@zyxmyk Why Christainity is the true religon of GOD in other words! Cause we don't say this stuff is to holy to be tested. Not that we have many artifacts anyways.
I believe Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the real reincarted Karmapa...just look at the striking physical resemblance and identical mannerisms ...He looks exactly like the 16th Karmapa ..I am not a Buddhist but when i see the 17th Karmapa, i feel convinced that reincarnation is a real phenomena
When money, power and religion is mixed together, it will definitely produce human challenged!
JJ... Until we live in a world where there is no need for money. Unfortunately we will always be somewhat dependent on it. Until people learn to share, be kind and make things more free.
simply, being on the same planet where this kagu lineage is present, is a thrill,
Tibet and Tibetans have four great difficulties. Chinese invasion, Dorje Shugden cult, impostor Karmapa and dust off bad karma. They are in quarrel and it is the problem. I wonder what will happen when HH Dalai Lama passes away and Chinese will go after important Lamas Rinpoches and Khempos...trying to eliminate them from the picture. What then? Then a flock of sheep will be slaughtered because the shepherd will be gone away. That will be the end of Tibet and Tibetans.
who the hell are these joint action committee?
Pema Sangye. So much for Buddhism being all about free-ing the mind and matrix! Guess not!
"... a rare glimpse into the often contradictory and confused view put forth by Shamar Rinpoche regarding the legitamacy of His Holiness Ogyen Trinley Dorje,..."
One could just as easily make the teachings of The Buddha seem "contradictory" if one were inclined to do so. By simply picking and choosing quotes out of context and placing them where one likes, one could make most anyone seem erratic and unsound.
i am very upset....
To Chungki Rapsel.... Why don't you convert to Christianity! It is alot more simpler then this! And you don't have to worry about being reincarnated. Followers of Christ go to NARVANA! = Heaven!
All watch this YT video: "The Flight of a Karmapa - A Quest For The Mystic Crown"
The flight of a karmas a quest for the mystic crown
All religion leader in Tibet must get permission from China central government
Karma PA Khennno 🙏 🌷 🙏 🌷 🙏 🌷 🙏 🌷 🙏 🌷 🙏 🌷 🙏 🌷
Very confused 😰
Dear Nawang Dolma. It's Buddhism! What else do you expect? The same religion that worship statues that look like demons. Interesting they also ware red too! isn't that the Devil's favorite colour? Point is Christianity's the only real religion. Hinduism and Buddhism is basically the scrap religions left over from ancient Babylon. You will see soon there will be only three religions left. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, and your going to have to pick the right one! Its all apart of God's plan. The fake to the intelligent well be exposed. And the real will be brought forward !
karmapa cheno, karmapa cheno, karmapa cheno... hos gusto amigos en el supremo vehiculo del diamante. gracias
very confusing video.
CT2507... Buddhism is very confusing. People whom don't have a Monothetic religion that they belong too are very confusing as well.... So they go for this!
I think shamar Rinpoche is in pobebly in hell 😭. OM MANI PADMI HU 🙏
politricks! It was a Theocracy.
plz Tai situpa Rimpoche made fake prediction letter so we did not believe him and his boy
last time Urgyen tobgay and they are party himself said
this letter was fake
Shamar 'a incarnated life was always dark cloudy ,and vontroversal,
Prior to 1959 the Shamar s incarnation was banned for many generations, for his anti government activities (reasons twittered in the
Video on Thaye Dorje and Shamar).
Then in 1962 the 16th Karmapa got special permission from the 14th
Dalai Lama to revoke the Shamar incarnation, and as such, looking for the Shamra candidate but then Mt Topga ,an opportunist, And causin toi the 16th Karmapa, substitud ed his causin again (Topga s causin )
As the new Shamar against the wishes and the wisdom ofthe and 16th Karmapa could not day a word because Topga was No-1 powerful man in Rumteg at that time,Shamar was installef but always controversal.incarnation
Shamar reines or rulled Rumteg for 12 years like a dictator, and at the end end promoted Thaya Dorje ,as the Karmapa, without following any of the
many traditional auspicious norms, including the letter of pridiction.
Ogyen Dohdul Trenlay Dorje has passed all the norms mentioned above
And with the approval of the 14 th Dalai Lama. So,with much gaurentee
I can say that O D Trelay Dorje is the(100+100) 200% gaurentee that is the genuen Karmapa
Karmapa chenno Karmapa chenno Karmapa chenno Karmapa chenno
Ogyen Dohdul Trrnlay Dorje chenno
It is clear that the so called Dugo Bhutia ,Ex-M.L.A.,Sikkim is worried about the property of the monastery rather than finding the true reincarnation of Karmapa Rinpoche. H.H.the Dalai Lama can never be wrong!
yawn