Understanding Suspension Layouts | Single-Pivot, Horst Link, Dual-Link & More Explained!
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- čas přidán 20. 05. 2024
- Mountain bike rear suspension can be really confusing! Some designs look really simple and some have pivots all over the place, but what's the difference? Anna Cipullo explains the 4 main suspension platforms and teaches you the difference between Single-Pivot and Linkage-driven Single-Pivot and a bonus section on the high-pivot variations.
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⏱️ Timestamps ⏱️
00:00 - Intro
01:07 - Jargon Busting
03:50 - Single Pivot
05:05 - Linkage-Driven Single-Pivot
08:31 - Dual-Link
10:33 - Horst-Link/ Four-Bar
12:27 - High-Pivot
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How much travel does your bike have? Have you tried many different suspension platforms?
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How much travel does your bike have? Have you tried many different suspension platforms?
I have XC hardtail :D so 100mm in front :D and i love it.
I ride a hardtail too, however the video was very informative and interesting. Good content.
My ripmo af is DW link 148mm rear travel and my Tues is virtual 4 bar (V4L) 200mm
My Gen 5 Trek Fuel ex is 130mm in the rear w/ the ABP suspension. My XC race hardtail has 0 travel in the rear. Both are a blast to ride in the given terrain.
have a 150mm GT i drive single pivot with isolated BB (force LE 2013), a faux bar (linkage driven single pivot) merida 140mm from 2010 and a 2019 GT force 150mm four bar linkage.
This is the kind of content that I love.
Clearly a lot of work went into this video.
It would be cool to have a follow-up video on the advantages/disadvantages of each design
In general. single pivot has very consistent performance, but can't separate pedaling or braking forces as well as other designs and is the least efficient pedaling. DW link has incredible pedaling performance, and is flat out the most efficient pedaling design, its high anti-squat however can cause it to have poor small bump compliance and less traction through rough stuff. VPP is similar to DW link, but trades some pedaling efficiency for better traction and small bump compliance. Horst link is the king of small bump compliance and traction, but the tradeoff is less pedaling efficiency, though it does still pedal more efficiently than single pivot, and a Horst bike will have tenacious traction on tech climbs. The traction and generally robust design is why Horst link is what is typically found on enduro bikes and a lot of DH bikes.
There are also variations on the 4 basic designs. Canfield Balance Formula (used on Canfield and Revel bikes) is a variation of DW link (twin link with co-rotating links) but the main pivot is forward of the BB, which produces even more efficient pedaling and also incredible traction, the tradeoff is CBF designs tend to be fairly linear in terms of their leverage curve. Rocky Mountain's LC2R suspension which has recently been revived on the new Altitude is a VPP (twin link with counter-rotating links) variant where the main pivot is concentric with the BB. Giant's Maestro link, is so much of a carbon copy of DW link that they were sued by Dave Weagle (Giant won the suit), they put the main pivot on the lower shock mount where standard DW link puts the main pivot on the seat tube.
@@mrvwbug4423
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but aren't most xc race bikes single pivots? I would think that style of bike would want good pedalling efficiency
@@bike314just learn more about leverage ratio, Anti Squat, Anti Rise, Forces etc and you don’t have to think about this things. Suspension designs are not fixed to one characteristic type of kinematics percentages
Pretty sure they have just ripped it directly from Enduro magazine circa 2020. Loads of work went into it, and unless I am mistaken the work wasnt GMBNs. One of the original authors was Ruben from Raaw. Those blokes know how to build a great bike.
This is the sort of thing the internet needs. Great work on the animations, super clear and easy to understand
Glad it was helpful! We spent a fair while on those graphics 😅
Appreciated
Wow! A huge topic and so well covered by Anna. This is one to re-watch at least once for all the various aspects covered. Really excellent animations! Such great production quality for Anna, always!
Awesome, thank you! The whole team did brilliantly on this one.
Love, that Anna is always talking relativly slow, so non native speakers have it easyer understand her too :)
Relatively slow and clear. So often presenters will mumble a bit.
Great video, but I was hoping for more pros/cons, but perhaps this is harder to quantify. Thanks again
It's been quite a while since the last time watching GMBN, so I didn't knew the new presenter. Oh boy she is a joy to listen to. Such enthusiasm paired to a great script and animations! Finally learned suspension types! Loved the video.
You are a true talent! I learned more in this video than I have in 30 years of riding. Thanks for clearing all this terminology up for me.
By the 7 min mark I had noted two errors.
In the original explanation, progressive is not described quite right: progressive is described as less movement in the shock for a given movement in wheel. This is true but the key fact is that the ratio of wheel movement to shock movement increases was, I feel glossed over.
Secondly flex stays are not to provide additional bottom out protection. This is not what they are for: imagine the triangle a b c where a is the end of the seat stay near the seatpost, b is the rear axle and c is the pivot point generally near the bottom bracket.
Under compression the points a and b are going to move at slightly different speeds relative to each other so one of the sides of the triangle has to change length. This obviously is going to be the length a to c. A little basic math(s) tells you this means the angles of the rear triangle have to change. The angles at a and c are fine... they are both set up as pivots (even on a single pivot design). The angle at b either needs a way to change, so you have to put in a bearing or bushing to allow the seat and chainstays to move relative to each other, or the stays need to bend.
This is why most modern shorter travel bikes use flex stays... it allows the angles of the rear triangle to be "fudged". The reason you don't see it on long travel bikes is because the amount of fudging needed would require the rear triangle to be very flexy.
If 15mins of solid talking only resulted in me failing to explain two points adequately, then I’ll take that as a win. Cheers 😅
@@AnnaOnTheBike I always enjoy your videos, and virtually always learn something from them. No different here.
At 3:30 concerning the explanation of progressive, it appears to me there's problem.
It is said that during compression of the rear, the shock has less travel compared to the wheel that is was at the beginning. All the while concluding it produces a firmer suspension at the end of the travel... That simply cannot be. The smaller is the travel of the shock compared to the travel of the wheel, the shorter is its "lever"... hence the softer is the suspension. (think of it as lever arm if you prefer)
I'm a road cyclist and know too few about MTB and their suspensions (that's why I was here). I cannot tell what's wrong :
These layouts are designed the other way around and shock travels more at the end?
It is simply designed to be softer at the end? (that would be strange)
Shock are also progressive but overcompensate with firmness the mechanical progressive softness of these layouts?
I don't know what is wrong but I know my physics and there is something looking wrong to me.
One of the roles of the suspension is the transfer the work of the wheel to the shock absorber. It doesn't absorb energy, that's what the shock ABSORBER does.
For a suspension, we could resume energy as vertical travel work.
W = F x D Work = Force x Distance
To keep it simple.
For the same travel at the wheel, if you decrease the distance (travel) of the shock, you then decrease work (hence, force at the wheel, i.e. it's softer) or you have to increase the force of the shock to compensate the shorter travel of the shock.
To be complete
Since work is transfer from wheel to shock we could present it this way
F(w) x D(w) = W = F(s) x D(s) Force(wheel) x Distance(wheel) = Work = Force(shock) x Distance(shock)
F(w) x D(w) = F(s) x D(s)
F(w) / F(s) = D(s) / D(w)
Ratio of forces equals the inverse of the ratio of distances (travels)
Could also be written as :
( F(w) / F(s) ) x D(w) = D(s)
For a given wheel travel D(w), if you decrease the shock travel D(s) you either :
decrease the force at the wheel F(w) (let the suspension be softer)
or
compensate the shorter travel of the shock D(s) by increasing the force of the shock F(s) (design a firmer shock).
To have a firmer suspension,
They overcompensate the shortening travel of the shock with an even more firmer shock. But it was wrong to say these layouts themselves makes the end of wheel travel firmer.
Or
The design of the progressiveness of the suspension is the other way around to increase the travel of the shock and not the opposite. But it was wrong to say the shock travels less at the end.
But there is something looking wrong to me.
@@nounours2627 you are correct. simple leverage. less movement in the shock means more force on the shock, that would be degressive.
@@AnnaOnTheBikeit’s a recording… not a live talk, so there is no excuse for mistakes of which there were many! Your attitude sucks!
Honestly such a good video! The detail, the drawings/animations, the videos… so good! Thanks guys
Great/helpful video… branded suspension names make things so confusing. Would love an even deeper dive into each type.
Thanks for this amazing video!
Anna, great presentation. I have tried all the designs and keep coming back to single pivot linkage designs.
It’s a classic for a reason ☺️
Yes, I know what you mean. I end up on linkage-drive single pivot a lot too. Thanks, Anna :)
Great video Anna and GMBN Tech team!
I always wanted to understand this better, but never quite found anything that isn't full blown marketing for one brand. Thank you!
I quite like the old Giant NRS system (horst link if I learned well? 😅), but I like to change the recommended pressure settings. By the manual, negative chamber pressure should be 5 PSI regardless of positive chamber pressure with the original RS SID (Dual Air or XC or Race) that had independently adjustable chambers.
I tried to regulate positive chamber first to the recommended pressure, then put just 5PSI on the negative, then check SAG and adjust positive chamber accordingly, record positive chamber pressure, and then equalize negative chamber to the recorded positive chamber pressure for the bump sensitivity, or recorded positive chamber pressure -5 or -10 PSI for just slightly firmer suspension.
Convoluted? Yes. Effective? Yes!
I love that bike! (It also looks rather cool IMO)
Glad we could help!
Finally a video explaining in pretty much just the right amount of detail all the suspension designs. Doing the god's work GMBN! I've ridden a Giant Reign with their Maestro link, a Commencal Meta TR and absolutely hated it, and a specialized stumpy evo, which I haven't got much chance of riding it at all yet. So far the Giant has been my favourite, it was just so simple and is quite tolerant in terms of shock set up. I just got into MTB when I got the Giant and didn't know or bothered with shock setting at all. So I left everything in the middle and that bike felt really good already. Absolutely loved that bike. Then the META TR. For some reason the suspension just didn't work. My feet get bounced off the pedal every time I go near a descent, be it a set of stairs or a trail. I don't know if it was the high engagement hub that affected how the suspension felt (pedal kickback), but apparently there were a ton of anti squat to a point it just doesn't want to compress at all. I've tried air and coil, and different set ups to no avail. So I decided to get rid of it and bought a stumpy evo and see what the fuss is all about. Must say it is sooooo much better than that of the META TR and the bike overall just rides amazing. The Horst link suspension feels a lot more supportive, tho, and not as perhaps supple as I remembered the Giant to be. But then again, I need to spend more time with the stumpy.
Maybe it is not the bike, but the person doing the setup?
@@krneki111 ummm but I've been doing the setup😅 I'm the only constant in this
I have to say this is a very involved topic and it was done really well, good job, Anna!
Thanks for watching 🕺
Thank you for your kind words! They are appreciated :)
Virtual pivot point is perfect for my virtual bike skills.
As always, love ur film making. I loved the scenes where it's snowing tiny, pink petals on Matt and fixing the flat on a carpet of pink. What adds even more enjoyment is the sound mix in the film. Looking forward to the next Silent.
this was the best explainer i have seen. Thanks!
speaking of favorite suspension design ,
The Digit Datum for me is absolutely marvelous
Specialized may feel honored but I am sure Horst Leitner and AMP would like a word about who made the "Horst Link" famous 😅
Tony Ellsworth has entered the chat ...
I had a Mongoose branded Amplifier and the first year Stumpjumper FSR
I can't believe they didn't mention Horst Leitner. I guess a history lesson may be in order
Horst sold the patent to Specialized because almost no one was paying him for using it like they should have been. I believed it was only Chris paying on time, who founded Pivot.
True, but the explaining of how the systems work was the focus
Never realised about the different suspension set ups - thanks for explantion! 😁
Happy to help 👍
The best video describing suspension designs that I have ever seen! Fantastic
Great video - might need to watch a few times to get my head around it. All the stuff I've been curious about explained very neatly
Super informative, exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!
Great video! The animations are great for visualising something like a VVP. Thanks!
Anna you're the best
Excellent!! I love it when you guys share your knowledge about bike technologies. I need that. I LOVE the craft (and yes,... I said CRAFT) of bike design. GMBN tech has played a major part in that too. Thank you.
Flex stays are not for bottom out protection. It's just that in many four bar linkages, the pivot by the rear axle moves SO little that you can just rely on seatstay flex in place of that pivot. It's very similar to a faux-bar, but the pivot on the seatstay is just replaced with seatstay flex.
Good and informative video, thanks Anna!
My pleasure! - Thanks, Anna :)
This is fantastic. Thanks for the info!
What a great explanatory video. Subscribed!
...though I wish you also mentioned the NRS suspension while talking about the Horst link, that thing has a special place in my heart and I still have and sometimes ride a Giant NRS I bought back in 2004.
to this day my GT LTS 2000 custom DH rig i had in 2000s is still the best suspension ive ever ridden. Im even thinking of making a custom LTS 2000 with modern geo, just need to learn how to weld or fillet
and make it a mullet cant stand 29 BUT i do like the stability and speed having the front 29 just dont like 29 on the back. i was also thinking 26/27.5 but after i hired a L orange at canop i fell in love with the 27.5/29 set up, still not keen on the linkage single pivot as it was skitish. My GT had so much traction it was insane thou a little twitchy as geo was bad back then
I'm still riding my old 2013 GT force le with the idrive single pivot setup. Was their last idrive bike. Nice 66 degree head angle and long top tube, but the seat tube is 72. If the seat tube angle was 2 degrees steeper I'd be set for life. It's running a 27.5 front with a 2.8 high roller ii and a 26 rear with a 2.6 nobby nic.
Has super good pedaling, is nice and progressive but has a bit of brake jack. I have a newer GT force but always end up going back to the 2013 force out of habit.
Just got the frame rebuilt and repainted. Ready to go another 10 years.
I ride a Revel and love my CBF!
Thanks for the great content @Gmbn!
CBF is pretty good, incredible pedal efficiency without the traction issues of DW link. And Chris literally just moved the main pivot forward of the BB, far enough to get the desired effect and far enough to not get sued by Dave Weagle.
Great, easy to follow explanations, thanks.
Great video! Very informative. Thanks!
2:25 You confuse anti-rise with rise. When braking you have both rise (due to body movement) and anti-rise (dictated by the position of the IC and would happen irrespective of the body movement). Note: There is also brake jack, which is often confused with anti-rise, but is actually something else (dictated by the position of the brake caliper and it's movement relative to the brake rotor when the suspension moves. sometimes this is addressed with a floating caliper or the DW-link, but that doesn't address the anti-rise as it doesn't change the IC).
Similarly when pedaling there is both squat (due to body movement) and anti-squat (dictated by the chain forces and IC). If you want to understand these correctly I recommend to watch andrextr's youtube channel.
very useful chapter
Great job !!🎉🎉
Glad to have a hard tail to service lol.
All this configurability is both impressive and intimidating
Great breakdown! I learned a lot from this vid.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching :)
What’s that brown stuff on your nose?
Great video, very clear
Horst Link was one of the first actually functional full suspension designs. There was some crap attempts in the beginning
Great video.
Thanks
Adorei, obrigado pelas informações. Uma kona coiler se enquadra melhor em qual tipo?
Very nice video. Well done, well presented and very informative. Would love to see this continued. Maybe compare characteristics of Enduro, trail, xd bikes? Or more deeper dive how chain line and gear selected affect these characteristics - can have positive and negative impact, also can be used to tune suspension design on deularier bikes but set chain length on gearbox bikes has its own benefits
Big thumbs up. I have always wondered what the differences were in different suspension set ups. Would be interesting if there was a deep dive into the pros and cons of each suspension system / layout.
Like for example I rarely see XC bikes use the dual suspension layout. So does that mean dual suspension is not as efficient for anti-squat? Since XC is more about climbing and speed.
Thanks for the idea!
I just got my first full-sus 3 days ago. Went with a dual-link (Maestro). I love it, but I haven't yet pushed it to it's limits.
My first FS bike was a Horst Link Rocky Mountain Element. After a couple years I bought a Giant Trance with Maestro which I have ridden almost a decade. Any bike I buy will have one of these two types, except I’m open to other twin link types beside Maestro. In my opinion and for my usage, these are the only two options. Fortunately there are lots of bikes to choose from.
After watching this video (btw very nice) i was wandering if a after market idler can be designed to be able to install on older frames or frames that don't have a idler (something like a front derailleur but with a jockey wheel or something like that) also would be nice to know how idler positioning effect suspension feel in braking and pedaling or anything else the idler might effect.
The 3 full suspension bikes I've had or currently own are. The Giant ATX 970 which was a faux bar. The Boardman FS Team which was a 4 bar. Blake's old Orbea Rallon a linkage driven single pivot. I'm not actusally sure I could accurately tell the difference as the Giant and the Rallon use coil shocks and the Boardman used an air shock.
@gmbntech Hey, what type of suspension layout is Trek's Full Floater?
Talking systemic progression, check out ministry cycles 3V0 system. Awesome to see where thing are heading.
Mmmmm, loved this ty 🙏 👏 🔥
Can you break down the yeti sb 160 and how it works
Note that air shocks are naturally progressive with F=K/(A*(x0-x)+V0). and coil springs are linear with F=Kx.
Is the blue single pivot bike with the Effigear gearbox (at 4:17) a Starling ?
Once upon a time if you said you liked Giant's maestro you got crucified instantly... I demoed and leased a lot of bikes and different suspension design the trance or reign are just perfect.
I also really love my Jeckyll but it's a bit "plungy" with the coil apparently a air shock would improve that...
Also loved the siskiu D9 my friend just aquired but couldn't properly test it...
Dave Weagle is the man!
A very very very litigious man. Now that his patents are expiring (except for DELTA and DW6) there can be a lot more variety in MTB suspension on the market. Prior to 2014 nearly everything was single pivot of some flavor as that was about the only design that wasn't infringing on one of Weagle's patents. Horst Leitner's link design had its patent expire in 2014 which caused the explosion in Horst link bikes afterwards. Santa Cruz held the patent on most VPP designs until last week, Rocky Mountain had to cease using LC2R in 2009 because of a patent dispute with Santa Cruz and they have mostly used Horst link since 2014. Few brands were willing to pay the extremely high licensing fees that Weagle demanded, pretty much just Ibis, Pivot, Evil and more recently Atherton.
So in many ways Weagle held back the development of MTB suspension by patenting and jealously guarding most of the viable designs, licensing his designs to only a few companies at a high price. One of the key reasons why bikes with Weagle suspension designs tend to be super expensive (i.e. Pivot, Ibis, Evil, Atherton). Specialized did the same with Horst link until the patent expired in 2014 as while it was designed by Horst Leitner, Specialized owned the patent.
Where would you place Yeti's switch infinity?
I've owned over 30 mountain bikes in the past decade and absolutely love my Yeti the most as an all mountain bike. Takes the hits with a very progressive bottom out but climbs like a mountain goat. I love the Specialized Horst link for an enduro and DH bikes, seem to respond the way I want it to. Linkage single pivot is acceptable for Dh too. But I've never been a fan of the DW link or the handful of dual link designs I've tried. Currently I own two specialized, a yeti, and a Rocky Mountain.
You can treat it as 4 bar linkage design, where the linear momevment is replaced with a very long bar with the pivot point far in front of the bike.
@@SuperAnatolli And does the pivot point remain constant? Not entirely sure how Yeti does it but it's been my favourite bike by far
@@Rickie-37 Read my answer agian. You obviously missunderstood it. You can also calculate how the rear wheel travel differs with the Yeti solution compared with a 2 meter long bar in a 4 bar arrangement.
Oh right, a 4 bar has a variable pivot point. Thanks
#AskGMBNTech are there suspension designs that are better suited for different riding style? XC vs. trail vs. downhill?
I have a kona coiler 2006, I'm wondering which suspension system is?
This video got me thinking about if using a progressive coil on a progressive virtual link is right call. Maybe should just open up the settings and just let the coil and link handle everything
Usually you want to use a progressive spring on a linear linkage and a linear spring on a progressive linkage. Progressive coils are mostly for bikes that are a little too linear to really run a coil like the Ibis Ripmo or anything with CBF suspension.
So, what would Bmc ‘s APS dual pivot technically be categorized as?
Hi from Norway !! How about YETI,s " Switch Infinity " system !! ?? is it,s any special ?? Thank you !
Switch Infinity is a linkage driven single pivot, but the main pivot floats vertically on a special damper device, it's probably the most expensive suspension design in use, another reason why Yeti bikes are sooooo expensive.
@@mrvwbug4423 No, it is not a single pivot. Do the math.
I have three hard tails....One Specialized, one Triumph, one Harley......I love 'em all......
anyone knows what shoes are those at 2:56?
8:30, to which direction?
I guess the switch infinity from Yeti is a kind of dual link suspension?
You can treat it as 4 bar linkage design, where the linear momevment is replaced with a very long bar with the pivot point far in front of the bike.
What is the Yeti Infinity Link?
linkage driven single pivot, but the main pivot floats vertically on a damper
Not twin link, dual link. I know in genetics twin doesn't always mean identical but in mechanical engineering it does. If the links aren't the same size and shape, they aren't twin link
What about the new Polygon Collossus and Square One?
Polygons are linkage driven single pivot, aka faux-bar
Well I guess I can identify the suspension type used in my bike since it was one of the models specifically highlighted as an example...
That makes it nice an easy for you then 🤙
Pro 10
No comment on 6 bar linkage?
Anybody figured out what the Pole Voima uses?
A twin pivot design unique to Pole. It's like a DW link and a Horst link had a love child.
DW6 is a six bar design not a twin link layout
The more links a bike has, there is more to break and go wrong
Unfortunately the easiest and simplest rear suspension type integrated into the frame is held hostage by a small company....
She’s no Doddy replacement reading off the teleprompter, but good job Anna
She never uses a teleprompter. Just saying ;)
@@gmbntechwell maybe she should consider using one…
🐎 🔗
Nup, still don’t get it 😕
Yes all of it but before crying wolf about who invented what; just for fun look into Honda's Pro-Link, check the date patent. I wasn't born and I'm 40.
🤷😈
@raawmountainbikes have these guys just ripped off Rubens article in enduro magazine from 2020?
So basically, it's single pivot weirdos vs Horst army...😂
I ride bike. Me go fast.
I have an Orange Alpine Evo. No linkage, two bearings. It is my first Orange and by far the best riding bike I've ever had. I've had Specialized, Canyon, Marin and Giant over the years amongst others. Get over yourselves with your 8 linkages and 26 bearings 🤣
Hard tails aren’t cheating.
Typical Anna content… filled with confusion, mistakes and poor grammar.
Bla Bla! Simply tell them, what the "optimum" progression level is and the linkage with the minimum brake and acceleration impact. Or which system is best for for a specific application. It looks like this bla bla is just meaningless entertainment than anything useful. Fortunately for the marketing dpmt's, almost all customers are not able to know how a good systems feel.
Maybe this video just wasnt about advice whats the best etc. but rather just an explanation of the different definitions. Much of the rest is religion anyways.
You don’t like education much? Besides, it is not so much which system is best for an application, but rather which tuning and kinematic address various suspension challenges.
simple... rocker link designs ...vpp mastro giant zero mondraker propain p10 for me are the best... make the bike feel right composed and much more sensitive small bump active
My dream bike is the Canyon Torque, but I love my hardtail. Considering it's my dream bike, I think the horst is amazing.. Awesome content
overcomplicating something as simple as a bicycle.... why? its just a fucking bicycle. complete nonsense.
The idler wheel is not so a longer chain can be used. It's to reroute the pedaling forces to a point that makes a relatively straight line from the frame to the cassette to minimize pedal kickback. You'll notice the idler is always in close proximity to the pivot.