Why Are So Many Mountain Bikes Going To A High-Pivot Design?
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2023
- With the new Trek Slash becoming the latest enduro bike to use a high pivot design, Christina explores exactly how these suspension layouts work and what makes them special.
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So, what you're really saying is: the next Grim Donut will have a high pivot and idler...?
Ya with a stack height of 700 and it’s gonna look like an American chopper going down hill
And a gearbox and internal headset....
Yeah or 3 cause Progress
Yeh, v3 Donut would be killa.
I heard the bar, stem and top headset cup with the race and sealed bearing are going to be all one piece. With a flip chip to allow for the addition of spacers and cable routing through the center of the handlebar/stem clamp. Cables then go down through the star nut and they split in the head tube: dropper cable routes through top tube, derailleur and rear brake cables through the down tube.
Seems brands actually are slowly moving back to simpler linkages without an idler and all the associated bulk and complexity. For most people I think simple is best. Great video, good explanations. Worth noting that high engagement hubs make kickback more common at slow coasting speeds. Oh but you can buy an ochain for that....to decouple the high engagement hub you bought for high engagement. 🎉
Back in 98 Frank Wadelton made a prototype project X DH bike with an anti-squat rear end but it wasn't really effective enough for production. It basically was an idler near the pivot but not at the pivot and it sort of tugged the rear downward a little to make it not bob under power. It robbed too much power or at least felt that way to DH riders
😂😂😂
@@stirfrybry1 Most high pivot bikes do the same thing. If you look at the position of the idler you will see that the chain doesn't completely align with the main pivot.
Using chain tension to control suspension moment is essentially a universal concept at this point.
A lot of people are going back to more simple bikes. I, seeing a ton of people on Rigd frame front suspension bikes this year. The cost is way outta line it’s fine and dandy if yoyr a Rich kid but rest of us can’t play that game
@@cherobinson6371 Well you know, we gotta come up with ways to keep "bicycles" costing $8,000 , keep buying it.
Dec 22 2021 PinkBike Article
“It's often said that pedal kickback leads to harshness, feet being blown off pedals and restricted suspension. But pedal kickback is more of a theoretical calculation than a real-life phenomenon.” “I'm not saying that pedal kickback never happens, but it's what you might call a corner case, a rare combination of circumstances.”
Lmao
It would’ve been good to compare numbers against the old slash to help us understand how much the changes have helped anti squat/rise…etc
Why do people think the statitics tell you how it rides? This is like thinking "reach" didn't exist before MTB "journalists" began pitching it as the be-all end-all of how a bike will ride.
Charts graphs tables and spreadsheets don't tell you how a bike rides.
Actually, statistics do tell you how the bike rides… otherwise all we have are opinions. You can show improvements in efficiency quantitatively, you can show improvements in shock absorbance quantitatively, etc using proper experimental design. In the case of bicycle design, quantifiable improvements equate to qualitative improvements. I would rather base my purchase deduction on science than your opinion
@@davidlanday6102 How many frames have you built?
Spreadsheet warriors are so amusing. The ones with engineering or industrial "design" parchments, especially so.
@@seanoneil277 you sound very bitter, some people enjoy the technical element of mountain bikes. Perhaps you should develop a little bit of empathy.
@@rip.tear. Why so jewish in your lying projections?
Christina has evolved into an excellent presenter and Pinkbike is making great videos.
I love your videos Christina! You are always fun to watch.
great video, i would have liked more comparisons but this was enough to get me considering pivot types and locations.
I feel the video didn’t discuss the benefits of the rearward axle path and to me that’s what the high pivot bike is all about. I just built up a Forbidden Druid and it’s amazing.
care to elaborate a bit more on that?
@@lechproteanthe rear axle moves backwards with high pivot designs so it basically moves out of the way of objects you ride over. It also means that the wheel base is getting longer which some people don’t like cause it makes the bike feel less agile.
czcams.com/video/XGxYZ9Rh2t4/video.htmlsi=bQTFZuOTONmGawR1
@@Nico-- but on the other hand more stable, right?
Yes, its an important omission from the video. 👍
The Pinion Gear Box solves all of these chain growth issues for ebikes.
Great job and excellent presentation. Please do more.
Good video but it only covered the pros of an idler not the cons
Trek didn't pay for the cons.
Honestly, I don't think the cons will matter for most people. I've been riding a Forbidden Druid for 2+ years. The cons I hear people mention are that the idler adds drag, and that it adds additional maintenance, here are my thoughts:
As far as adding drag, maybe it does in a lab, but on the trail, I really don't notice it. When I first got the Druid I pretty quickly smashed a bunch of my climbing PRs (set on a non-HP bike) without even really trying. The idler may add some small amount of drag but on anything even slightly technical that effect will be more than offset by the better rear-wheel traction. I really doubt most people will notice any meaningful difference.
As far as maintenance... I've got over 1,000 miles, all trail miles, on the Druid and I haven't touched the idler it came with aside from the occasional torque check. I will probably replace it at the end of this season - like all drivetrain parts, it will wear - but it's like an $80 replacement and the process for swapping it out takes like 2 mins and could be easily performed by my eight-year-old.
To me, these downsides are EASILY offset by the advantages this suspension design has for dealing with square-edged hits. If you live somewhere that doesn't have a lot of those, maybe it's a different story. But I swear the Druid sometimes feels like it's accelerating over rock and root gardens. If the price of that is a theoretical 3% drop in efficiency and an $80 2-min part replacement once every couple years, I will happily pay it.
All that said, I know nothing about the Slash so it may have some issues the Druid does not.
There are no cons. You must buy a new bike to enjoy the sport. /sarc
Great walkthrough 👏 I had certainly misunderstood the function of the idler gear!
Great video helping cement some key frame design concepts, thanks! I love that you used the Grim Donut
You are a great presenter of technical information and I hope you continue to teach.
Brilliant! Bravo Chris, so well explained I even understood it!
Very well explained - high pivot is no longer just a meaningless buzz word to me. Thank you!
This is the best mountain bike video I have ever seen. Well done.
Have the high pivot on my Haibike 5 years already, it rides very well and not complex at all, super reliable.
I think the aspect of the lengthening of the wheelbase under compression by using a higher pivot than the rear hub is actually bigger than the topics covered here.
Very nice! Loved the technical education.
As an XC rider, I almost skipped this video but I'm really glad I didn't. Well done.
Cheers!
I fast forwarded through it as I don't think high pivot extra weight and complexity will ever be worth it for XC riding. Convince me otherwise?
@@lechprotean Oh, I didn’t mean that it should be on XC bikes at all. I just meant that high pivot bikes are all enduro or DH, and as a XC rider, it normally wouldn’t have been interesting to me but it was and I enjoyed the video.
glad to see you back on youtube,, keep up the content , my wife and I love your content , we both ride
Great descriptions of the what and why... Having tried a high pivot bike I can say it works... about as well as a well designed non high-pivot with good anti-squat and anti-rise... I struggled with cornering on the high pivot - something I didn't expect and couldn't wrap my head around why. I could have gotten used to the cornering and it would have been worth it if there were obvious benefits in other traits but there weren't (that I noticed or that mattered to me). The high pivot looks cool but it also has extra moving parts to either have potential issues with, require extra maintenance or cause resistance. So, I chose to buy a non-high-pivot bike. Across almost all the brands, suspension designs are no longer, "some work, some don't". They all work really well. Pick the bike that excites you and enjoy.
Interestingly, I felt the exact opposite. My high pivot bike feels faster in the corners than the old one did, despite being about 2cm longer and quite a bit heavier (Claymore vs Ransom, if anyone wants to know). But yes, absolutely it's more maintenance, but again, most recent rear-ends are not a single pivot either, so it's not *that* much more
I met someone a while ago who talked about high pivots, he mentioned cornering was a bit weird because as the suspension compresses the wheelbase extends.
Yep bike gets longer in corners meaning your weight feels like its moving around
I like the high pivot idea, It's more stable at the rear on a rough terrain. I ride on those a lot.
Christina makes great videos. Thanks Trek and Christina!
Great technical explanation and the elbow bandage looks good :)
I still have and ride my 1996 Pro/flex 856 - single high pivot. Pedal kickback is way over stated! Suspension is still active put influenced by the anti-squat effect or as advertised "dig-in" effect. The amount of which being increased or decreased by switching between the chairings on a triple crankset . The big ring bringing the chainline nearest the high pivot creating very little anti squat effect and allowing active suspension travel. The small chain ring giving the greatest level of "dig-in" effect on steep technical climbing while still allowing for a dampend suspension movement to maintain traction over rocks and roots (Unlike on a hardtail). The middle ring providing a good compromise on fast rocky terrain giving some anti pedal bob effect and near neutral suspension movement. Girvin is a genius 👏
So you're Girvin's nephew?
Very well produced!
Great presentation!
Christina, loved this, great work 🔥
Thanks Andy!
Very informative
I have a norco sight and norco shore both upgraded. The sight is more pedal friendly still sends well but the shore is the pure beast ready for anything, the upper idler is a game changer for jank and drops it’s so fast and confidence inspiring can really feel the less kickback and speed through rocks.
Kudos to everyone involved in the production of this video! I usually really dislike any technical aspects of MTB riding....this video however was fun to watch 👌🏼
Great video. I now understand.
Great video!
Look at the Baja 4 link suspension guid for long travel trucks it has a diagram that each time you move a link it tells you how the truck or car reacts to the changes based off Pre-existing knowledge that they have tested. Like A drag car with a flat short lower link it will almost rise under acceleration. When the lower arm gets longer and more towards the center it will sink under acceleration but under breaking it goes up. I imagine they had like 309 layouts to get it perfectly close to perfect.
Not really translated to bicycles in any way but thematically/theoretically. The idea/system, I mean. As-applied, engine-driven vehicles have much different needs than human-propelled bicycles.
I loved the elevated chain stay on my ‘92 Saracen, but with this it’s just too many moving parts
Huh, I never actually understood what anti-squat and anti-dive was. Thanks a bunch, this helped a lot.
Great explanations Christina!
I've been a Slash rider for a while, and I'm sure I'll like how the new gen descends given the Zeb and high pivot. My question is whether all the extra drive train complexity adds enough friction (especially during wet NW winters) that climbing and maintenance are not worth it for non-racers. Would this be a good all round bike for Squamish or Pemby?
Maintenance and spare parts on the long run would be a huge no-no for me. But then I don't know if there are any pulley standards right now...
Excellent video. Simple and easy explanations of the benefits and downsides, without making it boring. 👍
great video!
I have five bikes two Rocky Mountain flatlines and Norco 4X specialized FSR and the Rocky Mountain X-90 and its my favourite bike to ride it’s got a high pivot system on it and when I’m climbing there is zero bob and it moves up and back making it is so smooth it’s such a great cross-country minor downhill bike I recommend it to everybody but get a later model with the beefier connection points
WTF these bikes belong in museums
Jesus mix in a period, I just had a stroke reading that
@@cammackey8259 lets you know your alive….take your complaint directly to apple or siri if you think she will give AF……that is what it looks like when is the CZcams comment section and you could not be bothered to type instead you dictate…….. I left you some periods though so you can place them where you would like…. might I make a suggestion😳🤣
When a bike is built well why stop riding it? I have zero points riding these bikes but spending a few thousand dollars on a new one just for the sake of writing a new one would definitely because for a complaint. I do what makes me happy look at my fun car it’s 34 years old and my daily is 24 years old. When I find some thing that works I keep it. I haven’t had spend a dime on the daily other than the routine maintenance since I got it, 1999 vw golf. At Whistler bike rental shop I was told one of the toughest best bikes they ever had were the Rocky Mountain flatline series. I’ve written a bunch of new bikes and some of them are as comfortable and capable as my X-90 some are a little bit better but none making enough of a difference Tolmie can you spend the money.
PS To the dude who asked for some punctuation there you go is that better?🤣
@@shaun1900 by the way that was kind of my point you can get old bikes with this supposed new tech where it is good enough for most people. Most riders are never going to notice the chain getting yanked on when their suspension cycles
So educational.
This was easily the best bike-tech related video explaining complicated topics I have ever seen.
That said, I'll stick to my hardtail.
I know it seems we're in the minority, but there are a ton of us bike nerds out there that LOVE this kind of content. Great job Christina and Pink Bike!
Awesome content.
Nice explained 👍💪💪💪💪
Perfect for morning Coffee ☺️
MATHS!
Love it. More please!
Christina you did an excellent job explaining the high pivot. The real question is is there really a need? Or is it just another push for something new to be relevant. Most of my friends don't have high pivot and we're all very happy with our bikes. All this high pivot stuff it's just adding to more parts and more things that can break. To each their own I guess but it seems like it's solving a problem that wasn't there. The real question is if you were riding blind not knowing whether you had an idler or just a regular bike would it really be that different
Yep! They need something new to sell us. We aren't allowed to be happy with what we have
high pivot is an option like all other suspension designs. go buy YOUR option
There’s a major difference can 100% tell test ride back to back there’s a high pivot on the bike
People new to MTB, and with comfy amounts of $$, are eager to pursue the next "big thing". People swap forks, shocks, brakes, whole bikes before they even get familiar with the part/bike. Enthusiastic spenders, that's what they are. And when there are plenty of them in the market, the mfrs will throw all sorts of old-done-new-again stuff at these enthusiastic buyers.
When the "big thing" actually is a big thing -- cantis/V-brakes to discs; fully rigid to suspension fork; hardtail to FS; vastly improved shock/fork dampers; and much improved air springs in forks and shocks -- then it's worth spending to get that "big thing."
I've been riding MTBs since the late 80s and high pivots never have appealed to me. But I don't race DH on tracks with big square edged rocks or holes. For trail riding I don't see the point but Trek seems to feel a lot of folks do. Forbidden seems to do well with their frames, as does Deviate.
@@seanoneil277 100% I think the new fancy stuff is actually for rich newbs. People who have done MTB for a long time know that excessive complication is not worth it and they also know that there is diminishing returns with the most newfangled or fancy stuff
You want to see anti squat on a bike look at a Rocky Mountain ETSX-90. It plants the tire on accel hard it really helps climbing loose ground
Ah, the ets-x ! Rode mine from 2006 to last year before getting a Ripley. I miss the ground clearance that old bike provided. Excellent climber, but pedal kickback was real. Super interesting suspension design but not laterally stiff.
@@danAtUtah I got an 08 carbon with most everything updated and I love it. Cheers
looks like the core concept is putting tension in chain and pulley wheels to redirect chain such that when the rear wheel lands and the suspension is compressed, the chain is not slapping out sinusoid but get taught and tightened vertically (hence redirecting the impact load) and therefore the load that is transferred to the chain is along the links but no in a wave like manner? correct me if I'm wrong
that was good. i'm also buying a Slash now.
As an owner of the cannondale jekyll, I can confirm that the design gives an incredible balance of supple rear suspension and very good behaviour under pedaling power, most of the time i don't bother locking it, despite running a coil shock, because it's simply unnecessary. The quicker chain wear and higher resistance are annoying, though.
Good video. Any chance you can go full nerd on stuff like this for those that want it?!
Great video, an honestly great lookin bike -
MTB are becoming more complex than we need them to be
Cars are the same.
Thats why so many people are turning away from qll this marketing shit. Just use what you have all this stuff makes no difference for an average rider
@@waynebinky u dum dum asf bro? What s complex on electric car 😂😅😂😅😂😂
"downgraded" do hardtail and it is perfectly fine with larger volume rear tire
@@sempi8159 exactly
Unfortunately you got one thing slightly wrong.
The distance between the idler and the BB CAN change if the idler is not concentric to the main pivot.
The idler is there to take up the movement of the chain as the bike compresses and not transmit that movement to your feet through pedal kickback.
Great explanation! Make more content
Well made Cristina.
Simple and great explanations for complex topics. Thank you Christina and Trek. Cheers from Chile!
Amazing video. 😳
do the new pinion gearbox setups fix all this? great presentation by the way
Very very very very good video
All I got out of this video was, that none of this effects me since I'm on a hardtail.
tl:dw - the rearward axle path at the beginning of the travel soaks up bumps way better and keeps the rear-wheel planted on the ground. the slight decrease in pedaling efficiency doesn't really matter going downhill - but pedal kickback does, which the idler negates. high-pivot bikes are great for enduro/downhill racing, but not that great for regular trail riding
just like flex-stays - great for xc race, but the little bit of weight savings over a traditional pivot point doesn't really seem worth it over traditional linkages as flex-stay bikes tend to be quite stiff. just look at how people have compared the new carbon stumpy with flex-stays to its cheaper alloy version with the classic 4-bar. flex-stays and high-pivots are great racing tech, but pretty unnecessary trail riding tech
No.
The rearward movement is better for SQUARE edged bumps.
To say it "soaks up bumps better" is overstated and imprecise. And ignores the downsides completely.
And even if world cup DH racers are intrigued by it, it's important to remember they represent the top 0.5% or so of talent. Multiple skill levels above Average Rider On Internet.
@@seanoneil277
No.
It seems like you commented just to make a pedantic rhetorical distinction without adding anything of value to what I said or really saying anything yourself. Just nitpicking. What are the downsides? you brought up that they exist without elaborating. What was the point of that?
And your last little snippet doesn't even make sense... I was talking about racing...........
@@cheut
Are you a parrot?
You're not a logician, rhetorician, debater, or advocate. This much is clear, even if you don't see it yourself. Please don't chatter on about my limitations, you've never met me. Ever. And you can't possibly be drawing such sharply negative POVs from the words of my comments. So what is this strange projection you're engaged in here?
Incredibile spec on this bike 🔥
I want this bike so much
Tech Diva thx
Maybe I'm wrong, but this is why I like Giant's Maestro suspension design. It allows the rear wheel to have a more linear wheel path while providing independent braking, all without the complexity of a high pivot design.
The point of the high pivot is to produce a rearward axle path. Maestro is still a vertical axle path.
You can't make rearward axle path suspension designs functional without an idler or a really large chainring.
@@T3H455F4C3 the Maestro design may not have rearward axle path, but at least it doesn't have a curved axle path causing the described shortening effect in the video. The ideal solution IMO
@@aaronnowak5632 The Maestro axle path is not linear it is curved. Just like everything else
You can love it if you want to. Nobody is going to make you sell your bike.
The purpose of this video was to enplane why high pivot suspension designs exist and to point out their advantages.
Both myself and my buddy ride Maestro bikes, mine feels fine and it is a very good bike for the riding I do…but they both bob quite a bit on every pedal stroke…
I wanna see a Grim Donut V3 high pivot
OMG. High Pivot, VPP, Horst, TNT, Single Pivot, DW Link, Switch. Etc. I can't even seem to ride my bike anymore until this is resolved. I am waiting for the Chat GPT AI pivot to arrive before riding again!
Just waiting for the wireless dropper and chainring disengagement system. Seat dropped and chainring has 10 degrees of float, seat raised and it locks in place all through Bluetooth.
Yeah and at the end of the ride you push a button on the stem and it folds into a briefcase for you to carry home. Just like George Jetson's astrocar. Sci Fi is reality! Childhood fantasies must be fulfilled!
What about added weight of all the parts, and also what about the added friction of pulling a chain through so many pulleys?
Looks like mtbs have long abandoned drive train efficiency, these bikes seem big and mostly ridiculous. Go back to a large front ring to minimize chain play, way simpler
So it's kinda like the weird stuff polygon does with their bikes?
Just with the idlers so the linkage system doesn't have to be anywhere near as complicated.
The fs3 polygon was using a few years ago has 6 pivot points.
While having 0 linkage points on the rear triangle.
I want to try one of those high pivot ones one day to see how it compares, because when they said that it didn't really have pedal bob, I kinda thought it was bs until I bought one.
From the video it looks like it really does the same thing.
Anti-rise was skated around, sadly. It was well described (definition, pros and cons) and there was a hint the Slash has some anti-rise. In fact I know what’s going on in the Slash and bikes with the same design feature that helps with that. My point is it was skirted around by the presenter. I also know why it was skirted around and it doesn’t shine well on PinkBike’s independence on this occasion (I think Treck told them what to say and not say if they were to lend all their pretty press-release pictures for PB’s vid). Rant over. Otherwise a good vid.
Trek has been spending a lot of money recently to get YT influencers to push their talking points .
My Dready is an absolute weapon.
Was Balfa on to something in the 2000's? And Sunn a few years before whit the Radical?
Is the 2018 GT Fury Pro a high pivot bike but without an idler?
2019 is and has an idler, 2018 is not.
@@benoc9966 why do they call the 2018 high single pivot?
Why does Christina have to be so darn cute!
Great vid as usual, was nerding out when she whipped out the compass, but got a bit lost with the arc of travel the wheel and how high pivot helps prevent getting hung up on obstacles
Good explanation of high pivot idler bikes and concepts like anti-squat and anti-rise, but the "T" company in their product video on their CZcams channel specifically makes the argument that using two idlers and the size of their idlers was their contribution to this design - The concern with this argument is "do the idlers create drag? and does size of idler reduce this?"
Yes, and yes.
@@benoc9966 do you have any data on watts lost with single and double small idlers vs watts saved with larger idlers?
All this full suspension stuff is so freakin' complicated! I'll keep my hardtail for now...
This is the same pinkbike that has a complete post saying that pedal kickback is something we should not worry
6:00 that is not entirely true. They need more chain wrap on the chain ring. SRAM even states that for Transmission to work as intended bikes with idlers are required to use lower idler/pulley as well.
The new forbidden Druid V2 runs no lower pulley and has transmission
@@Lincolnridesmotos Yes, I've seen it too. Either they disregard what is specced by manufacturers or they found a work around. I would guess the former as just from looking at the Druid, there is not very much of chainwrap on the chainring. That could cause problems of slipping or deteriorating shift quality or shorten the lifespan of components...
Lot of manufacturers just straight up ignore spec sheets. Best example are Shimano brakes and discs, quite a few brands are mixing stuff they shouldn't.
That is a gorgeous bike
I’m waiting for the Dough Grimnut…the High Pivot Mullet Hardtail with a 42 degree HA.
someone has been making gains 💪.
This is a smart, excellent vid. But sometimes there is K.I.S.S. and nothing will be perfect. For now, personally, I'll appreciate having moto tech on bikes! (I'm old 😔and can track with the very early stuff.) Front AND rear shocks? Fox? What? All bikes feel like Cadillacs to me...send it!
20 years ago, Giant release a video of Maestro (floating platform, same as DW LINK) exploration all this. I wonder how much this bulk os better than the floating one.
Yea your Louisiana side showing as well, grabbing that Peacan pie lol
I think Lewis Buchanhan recently sent his back due to the chain jumping off the idler.
I steer away from idlers after a continuous chain drop problem on a Norco Shore
2023 rocky mountain element nails both up and down... (with 2 full size water bottle in frame no less...) It's also a much simpler and lighter design...
Great explanations! So much easier to just send this video to friends than try to explain high pivot myself on a ride.
Hahah facts! It's a lot to try and explain for sure!
Why does anyone ask you? And why do you feel compelled to explain? Don't people know how to examine an idea for themselves any more?
k2 Animal has the best suspension setup.. just like a dirtbike!
The shock extending with every pedal stroke instead of compressing is still "pedal bob".
We went through this 20y ago.
I had my doubts… now I’m definitely confused
The cycle of evolution in bikes never ends but I'll take simpler every time
simpler bikes win podiums. Still not impressed by this tech yet
Ya looks high maintenance
What is Uphill vs Downhill Bike ??
I think this video would have been better if you wore a lab coat pocket protector and some big glasses! Thanks for explaining what I thought was just a way for manufacturers to charge more money for a bike.