TRANSFORMATIONS: WHY JIREN WAS BORING | Dragonball Discussion
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- čas přidán 8. 05. 2019
- Transformations in #DragonBall have pretty much become ESSENTIAL in the show. With them, characters can hide parts of themselves until they are ready to reveal them; adding so much more complexity and mystery to them...but do we need them anymore? With #Jiren around, is it time to move on from this idea or is #DragonBallSuper right to keep going with transformations like Super Saiyan? Let's discuss.
SOURCE - www.academia.edu/9438710/The_...
www.burogu.com/2010/01/henshin-transformation-through-ages.html
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BUT MASAKO!!!! I thought all transformations were for....(looks at the camera)...MARKETING!
Lmfao meta asf XD
Is it bad I read that with masako's voice xD
"Facepalm"
says the guy with a VH remake in his thumbnail
transformations were definitely about the cost of ink, and the kafkaesque way dbz chose to handle it yes became a (not mandatory..) staple through the years
God damnit Nappa
More transformations, more money for TOEI. Everybody wins... Right?
sadly ur right. Toei has to really start to get it together....
so your saying transformations are good for "MARKETING!"
Jiren: This IS my final form
Goku: you....wha?
Goku:You should start low and then grow in strenght over time.
Jiren: I am starting low
This isn’t even my final form
For every Zamasu punched in the face by vegito we'll donate 5 dollars to the rebuild "Namek after Moro ate everyone like a buffet" charity
You came first 👏
@@AlexiasPlaylist moro
The name of hit
A picture of zamasu
And a frieza quote.
I guess everyone is here
@@Brando216 It's like Super Smash Bros Ultimate...
Despite all the hate Zamasu gets, I still got chills from his transformation. One of the rare times where it was hard to predict how the cast would defeat him.
It was like watching a SMT final boss take the stage into a DB setting.
I'd totally like to see Masako break down the psychology behind villain transformations like he did for the Saiyan color theory.
i wouldn’t say he got hate so much as his arc (specifically the conclusion). idk, i can’t speak for anyone. though i personally loved him, black, and the arc in general.
not so much the ending
No one really hates his transformations; a lot of us just hate the fact the character was poorly developed. The character would've worked better in more social settings and give him more slow scenes to build up his character and his ideas with showing his personality. The fat Buu path expect minus all the dumb stuff and keep the character building parts. Zamasu gets a lot of hate due to him being under developed. If you want a complex villain then you HAVE TO develop them, you have to show us their strengths and weaknesses mentally; their CHARACTER.
I liked Zamasu and Goku Black (Rose form, and Fused Zamasu were also pretty sweet.) its just...his development felt rushed and we got so little with him. We pretty much only saw the tail-end of his development from a regular Kai into a 'divine justice' villain, and his development felt incomplete. I still like him though.
That ending to the arc however....YEESH.
Zamasu was a bit of a wasted potential. Granted, he's still BY FAR the best antagonist in Super either way (counting all his incarnations) and he's quite sympathetic but his character development was rushed for no reason. I'd gladly exchange all those stupid sniper episodes and all episodes of this bald piece of trash called Jiren just floating in one place for giving Zamasu more screen time. He deserved it.
BushBabyOmega umm, most of people loved Goku Black, it was a nice change of pace and MYSTERIOUS
So, ok- Super Saiyan 3 is actually an interesting aspect. Because in it's debut scene it really does play up the aspect that it's a really instinctive transformation. You can actually see that with its visuals of great ape symbology. To me Super saiyan 3 isn't a sequel to Super Saiyan 2. It's a Prequel to Super Saiyan 4. and it's why I really think Goku's final favored form will probably be SS4, it's the combination of his Saiyan Instinct, Saiyan heritage, but with the mind still staying true to its emotional roots. SS4 was the best for me because it was Goku's form of "In my DNA, I am a Saiyan, in my Mind I am an Earthling, but in my Heart I am both."
#001 If the DBS series does continue, I hope not only they make SS4 canon but have Gohan be the one to discover it, as per his "vow" to "discover his own power" to Goku when they trained before the Tournament of Power.
Since they made Gohan into a scholar, why not put his book smarts to use and have him "scientifically" discover SS4?
With the form combined with his insane potential, Gohan could pretty much be on par (perhaps even surpass) with Goku and Vegeta in their strongest version of their SS Blue forms.
@@bulbasaur15I took his vow as him finding a form that is not Saiya-jin-dominant; something that caters to his Earthling side as well as his Saiya-jin. Ultimate does appear to go in that direction, showing his full power without a hair/eye change (although Gohan's eyes, cheeks, and jaw do change to a more beefier form). SSJ4, with its simian Saiya-jin attributes, wouldn't do that.
I like the look of SS4 because it's distinct and not just "look, my hair is standing on end and changed color". SS3 is my favorite though, it turns Goku into "the big guy" without being silly about it like SSU does to Trunks.
@@bulbasaur15 ultimate gohan has been born
They need to give Humans like krillin, tien, an master roshi a transformation. Hell even piccolo as well
But humans dont transform. Neither do namekians. It would be weird if krillin suddenly changed lol
There is the kaioken.
@@martial_matt Namekians do transform into Giant Namekian
@@martial_matt what about the Wolfman (22nd world tournament arc) who transforms from a wolfman to human when he sees a full moon and visa versa
@@midodan1254 yeah thats more of a downgrade at this point in the story. Getting bigger doesnt help them much.
I don't want to say under appreciated, but Jiren gets misrepresented a lot.
As Masako said, he wasn't a villain and I actually hesitate to call him an antagonist. He was just a final boss and he fulfilled that role well.
He was that strong without transforming and without accessing god ki, he was disciplined and calm.
But when he started to lose he completely changed and that is when we see his "true self" as Masako calls it; not by transforming but by losing. He's now in the perfect position for character... development. I don't want to say character growth because it would be fascinating to see him become a villain after being unable to accept his loss, but it would be development in a sense.
At the end of the day Jiren was there to be a final obstacle and being mostly a blank slate leaves a lot of potential for development in the future; his character can go literally anywhere.
okey
jiren is an antagonist the definition of antagonist is someone who oposes the protagonist(Goku) but he is not a villain
Realistically, I imagine if Jiren shows up again, it'll be so he can get smacked around by someone stronger. Like what happened with Hit.
BlueMageDanny
Don’t you mean all villain ?
Frieza : Come back just to get one punch by Great saiyan man
Cell : Return to screen just to get smack by Pikkon
Buu : Alive just to getting throw around by Beerus
Hit : come back just to get beat by Universe 11
Frieza (again) : Come back just to get pummel by Jiren and Broly
GT (bonus)
Nappa : come back just to get Nappa by Vegeta
Frieza and Cell : Fight Goku again just to get beat up
No.17 : come back just to get dragon fist from Goku
Thanks you understand
The real question is: Are non-saiyan transformations as important as saiyan transformations?
Yes, I think it's enough of forms for saiyans. They could give Gohan mastered version or a new form.
@@harikiran4339 Gohan is still a saiyan though. how about Piccolo we do have a non cannon form that we saw for namekians in Dragon Ball Online in the intro cutscene
For villains, yes.
Absolutely yes. Frieza and cells tesnsformations are some of the most memorable parts of the series.
@@yinyangdragonx yeah piccolo or dende
I cheered loudly the moment I saw those red flames engulf Vegeta as he became a Super Saiyan God. It was awesome and the animation and colour was invigorating! Red does so well for Vegeta, much more than Goku I think.
remember his training in the room of spirit and time
he was engulfed in flames
ialways wanted a fire themed vegeta form
i mean in early dbz he threw literal fire in his fight with goku
ssg in the closest i got
I personally liked that he didn't have one... now don't get me wrong i love them in general. But the fact that Jiren just... WAS that powerful really rocked the boat. Just remember that in the end Ultra-instinct didn't actually defeat him... he outlasted/outdid all the transformations in base.
I know but others might idiotically disagree
Yes👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
It's a lose-lose for Jiren either way with his personality. Super had too many transformations as it was and it just left one feeling like "Okay, so that just happened. Guess he's stronger now.". But Jiren just revealing more and more power was also sort of silly since he was said to be at his maximum several times, minus his one limit breaking moment of course. The only Jiren transformation I want to see is one where he becomes El Hermano.
Hit & Beerus doesn’t transform either Jiren is not the only one
EL HERMANO EL HERMANO EL HERMANO...
I was happy that they addressed/introduced the idea of a Saiyan harnessing the power of a great ape while still in "human" form in the Broly movie. I'd always wondered if the Super Saiyan transformation as we know it is NOT the Legendary SSJ form and that transformation was a perversion, in a sense, brought about due to their lack of tails and thus inability to turn into a great ape.
But doesn't SSJ3 also do that?
With that weird visual metaphor that happens when goku first goes SSJ3
@@nathanmarshall745 Fair point, TBH I watched the series when I was younger and I fell off and lost interest between the time the Cell saga wrapped and the Buu saga started airing in the US. I still have never finished the saga but I generally know what happens. So yeah, not as familiar with the SSJ3 transformation scene as most fans.
..... Forgets that Zarbon pretty much fueled the transformation
Can confirm, when Vegeta went god, the theater cheered.
Jiren is great. His trauma triggered final power (against Ultra Instinct Son Goku) look was fire
The transformations are fine but they should've been distributed between the entire cast of Z-Fighters instead of all to Goku. Most of these forms could bring these now lesser characters into a better light.
The 1st character I remember transforming into a super powerful being was He-Man. I think that's when I became hooked on the concept.
Actually I'd like to think some old Western transformations are showing their true self, in characters like Batman; Where he is heavily putting on a spoiled rich party playboy for Bruce Wane. Then going calm, serious and very focused and interested under his real persona as Batman.
Superman is a disguise for Clark Kent/Ka'El. He's just a normal guy from the country side.
Jiren had about as much character depth as Malekith from Thor: The Dark World. No amount of transformations would alleviate that.
svsguru2000 he had the most character development in the entire arc lmao so?
Jiren is less interesting than Corvus Glaive from Infinity War.
TheStargov five words. Most. Character. Development. In. Arc.
He had about as much character as a Saibaman.
Seru Saibaman actually have far more interesting design. Jiren looks... bland.
Another awesome video Masako! 🖒🖒👍👍👍 I'm in season 7 of z and I love your insight to the series as a whole not just the What-Iffery (though those are my faves)
It would be interesting to see goku and vegeta reach different forms like in the tournament of power, but more like how goku black had rose which was like blue but slightly different so they can still be somewhat equal
Son Goku - More than meets the eye
Base Saiyans - blondies in diguise
Z-Fighters wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of... Frieza, Cell and Buu.
@@Scientist93 Oh, nice
HA!!! Classic.
IMHO In the new series instead of everybody going Blue, they should all get different colors based on their personality or quirks.
See, I don't care as much about Transformations. Then again, I main a human in Xenoverse.
Agreed
I really hope that if/when Super starts up again, there is more of a focus on SSG over that of SSB. We saw in DBS Broly that both Goku and Vegeta were able to have combative use for the form, and it would be a better change of pace for Goku fighting intensely without his SSJ hairstyle for once
Don't worry Ultra Instinct will become the new Blue 🤣🤣
@@dekaritheprofessor2631 Yes, I'm well aware... Still not that big on UI coming back so soon after the ToP, but whatever (RIP SSG's potential)
@@tonyxenos I completely agree especially about SSG😭❤💔
This was truly eye opening
Admittingly, I'm a sucker for transformations mostly because they seem cool and it gets interesting to see how things pan out with the transformation, probably a very baiest opinion, but dragon Ball as a whole does this well.
In the _likely_ event they continue with a series after the events of the
Broly movie I really hope they make more, consistent use of the God form.
Much like the movie, they'd go God for movement prediction/Godly techniques
& conserve stamina, while they'd go Blue for extra power to bulldoze people with.
Add in the occasional _switching between forms_ for brief moments
(like Goku did in that 1 ToP episode & a few times they did in the manga)
and I think we'll be good in that department for a while.
I'm getting pretty tired of transformations. I would rather they cool it with using them, but hey it's all *MARKETING*
They should exist, but it should be much more about QUALITY than quantity.
@@OnEiNsAnEmOtHeRfUcKa I know they should exist, I'm saying they shouldn't use them every time.
kinda disagree with the Majin Buu point. In my opinion, the fact that Buu has so many different forms and that it's so hard to pin down or keep track of who the real Buu is says a lot about him. Think about it; in the end, he's nothing but an amorphous pink angry blob that assumes the shape of a humanoid.
1:46 I immediately heard the (japanese version's) transformation music from Sailor Moon.
Heck, you could argue a fifth of some episodes' runtimes were the transformation sequences :P
I'll keep it in mind
Have you done a video covering Ultra Instinct yet?
If not, i'd like to see it! :D
Not gonna lie, i would have skipped Ssj Blue entirely. We had just gotten this really cool godlike transformation with an awesome design and it was inmediately thrown away fror "Same Ssj but blue". Ultra Instinct would have been a lot more meaningful if we hadn't gotten transformations for some time.
THAT or make Ssj Blue a Vegeta exclusive transformation, so he and Goku are different while still being equal in power.
You could say the same for SSJ god (which I think your referring to) which is base goku but red. Vegeta already has an exclusive transformation and is equal to goku in power.
@@johnman8398
Ssj god is more distinct than Ssj Blue and the cool thing about him is how much it derived from normal transformations. There's also the fact that it was the first transformation in a REALLY long time, so it was gonna be special.
And i know Vegeta has the "Ssj god evolution" transformation to call his own, but if there wasn't a Ssj blue it would be even more of his own. The idea of Goku and Vegeta fighting together with different auras sounds cool too.
@@matti.8465 How is it more though distinct? Blue is just as cool if not more. Ok it was a long time but is that it?
So your not satisfied with vegeta having his own transformation you don't think it's his own enough even though it literally is. We already had vegeta and goku fighting with different auras in ToP.
@@johnman8398
I think it's more distinct because of the difference in body and the red pupils.
And i AM satisfied with Vegeta getting his own transformation, i just think that if Ssj blue (evolution or not) was exclusively his then it would be more special (even if it still is pretty darn special)
@@matti.8465 But that's not much of a difference and goku's pupil's turn blue in blue so then there's even less of one.
And fair enough for the vegeta form I guess I get where your coming from now.
You know i never thought about it but you're RIGHT Masako. Super Sayian Blue did put Goku and Vegeta on an even playing field, yet they went two different directions with their own strengths after that.
It would be really awesome in the future for the them to have MORE of their own individual side transformations that represent their growth, like Vegeta's Royal Blue and Goku's ultra instinct. Rather than just making a transformation a simple power tier to reach (i.e. pretty much all the sayians can go super sayian by now) Goku and Vegeta developing their own unique forms would be really interesting to their characters. Not to mention MARKETING!
A transformation should tell a mistery or more insights of the character itself or beiing a goal for a conflict. But the goal doesn't have to work. For example i love luffys transformation of putting the teath of arlong on his fingers. It didn't work, but i was still hooked.
BUT MASAKO!!! You got a haircut HOW
"Spoiler warning it's not getting old any time soon" and sadly Masako nobody yelled in excitement in my theater....not even me when Geets transformed in SSG we all saw it in the trailers.....the only time I agree of Toei's folly with them dropping the ball of showing spoilers in trailers
Everyone in my theater went wild over God Vegeta!!
Yeah no thats just you my theater went BALLISTIC!
@@Johten well my theater and myself did went Ballistic what God Vegeta did the transformation not so much lol
@@SetoShadowVT TF? Speak clearly boi! You're contradicting yourself!
This isn't even my Final form
Everyone: OH GOD WHY!? WE WAITED FOREVER!!!
Personally I don't really care for them having tons of forms, one for each day of the week. Super saiyan was fine for the most part, didn't like when EVERY saiyan attained it because it made it the new ground floor. If you don't have a transformation you're just in the basement. Now a days if I see super saiyan Goku I know we're just meandering.
Even Piccolo doesn't seem to get any good fight scenes anymore let alone most of the humans. Roshi's episodes were a breath of fresh air and were probably the two best episodes in all of super.
Lol. Frieza totally would take the chance to mock the super sayian form when he could.
13:44-!3:48 Honestly, even just watching the dub as it gets up to date, you can see some of these wheels already in motion. Since SSGSSJ, characters have stopped gaining blanket transfomations that work for everyone. Mystic/Ultimate Gohan, Rage Future Trunks, and even Ultra Instinct Goku and Super blue Vegeta are examples of this. Each of them are coping with this insane power, and developing their OWN method of using it. It makes me excited for the future.
Why don't they take a page out of One Piece's book and have different versions of a new transformation, like Gear Fourth; Bounce-Man, Snake-Man, etc. For example, Goku and other Saiyans learn how to master the Oozaru Form, and can become more or Ape-like or less depending on the situation
You mentioning Kamen Rider was nice little delight.
Aw, I liked the previous thumbnail. Probably cuz I'm a Frieza fan.
Coora: you wot
Great analysis as always. Happy Goku Day!
Hell even Zarbon had atransformation that had meaning
Jiren has kind of meaning to it to his appearance quite changed and he has his UI aura looking with is not UI and power is difference too and plus Jiren is not the only one even hit and Beerus too
I cant wait till u do goku's ssj 3 transformation in dbz abridged so i and hear u do that super long scream goku does XD
That's gonna be interesting to see how they handle it. They're definitely gonna take the piss out of it, but the original scream sounded AGONIZING.
It's gonna end with a squeak, I just know it.
I think another good example of this would be one piece. With Luffy's most recent transformation showing that there can be differences with power up's. Like the first time Luffy went Gear 4, Bounce Man. He ended up becoming this super powered behemoth that could fly just by using his legs as pistons going so fast he propels himself off the ground and into the air from the sheer amount of pressure coming off of them every time they fire off, the same could be said for his arms as well since he could pull his arms back and have them act like actual cannons with pretty much the same result. But now with his newest form change we get a new side of it, Gear 4, Snake man. Which was similar to Bounce Man, but trades away the raw destructive strength for pure speed. Which allowed him to move so fast he could out maneuver his opponent who could literally see what was going to happen and counter whatever he did minutes before he could even move before the transformation. I think this would be a perfect example of what's being said here.
Hey Masako, have you ever considered doing a what if Raditz turned good GT timeline?
I really feel the next big transformation should go to Gohan. He did state that he would find his own path to strength finally acknowledging that he needs to find a balance to his scholarly studies and training. Imagine Gohan unlocking a new transformation where both his spiritual and physical self meet a perfect balance and go to the next level would definitely show a return to form and add a new kind of development to his character. Maybe since Broly is cannon perhaps bring in Bojack or a Ressurection of Cell characters that both challnged him in existential ways by forcing him to go against his pacifist ideals but now realises that in the vast universe there will always be threats to earth and his family and he trains and fights to ultimately protect that which matters most to him.
.._i saw the video Earlier did you change the title and thumbnail just do Hurt Jirens feelings?
3:39
But MASAKO!!!!
I want a Viewtiful Joe Video
I think there are a few good points you could squeeze out of the games.
I doubt u even have to play them👍🏽💯
hey MasakoX I'm not sure if you did a what if on it yet I'm going to look after this but could you do a what if Goku took Freeza's deal on namiack where Goku would be part of the Freeza force and Freeza would give him a planet of his own
What if Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue, were more calm, focused, and collected? I feel like that would've been a better idea.
Listening to this blue and 3 are the only forms we didn't see the characters actually train for or work for they were off screen I think that contributed alot imo I like 3 but it's got dumb weakness I still wanna see the gt ver of it tho no stamina loss with the tail lol nd blue to me was just super lazy tbh they coulda diversified god forms in alotta ways to me especially with the lore for ss4 nd how its achievable if dbz returns hopefully they do it a lil better
Jiren had a transformation, he took his shirt off.
Kind of right if that’s not the case then Beerus and hit does not transform too
The main reason Jiren was so boring is because they mishandled his characterization and backstory. For almost the entire arc he was basically this invincible piece of cardboard, the same exact problem with OG Broly- no character depth. I think Jiren could have been a fantastic antagonist even without any transformations if revealing his personality and backstory had been handled better. In some ways I think a transformation would have actually cheapened his character.
Jiren became MUCH more interesting once his background and motivation was revealed (albeit in a rather slapdash manner late in the arc.) He was revealed to be this horrifyingly cold nihilistic person who put no stock in justice or friendship, that the only truth in the world is individual strength. He would have been a far more imposing enemy if that information had been revealed earlier in the arc. Watching him have a downright psychotic breakdown at Goku and Universe 7 steadfastly disproving his understanding of the fundamentals of the universe was absolutely fascinating. If we'd had hints of that earlier in the arc, he could have been built up more effectively as this seriously terrifying opponent. It could have been done easily as well; he makes clear late in the arc that he doesn't really consider Toppo or the other Pride Troopers as friends, and only barely as allies. The writers could have had him dismissing the other Universe 11 fighters for their weakness and incompetence when they get knocked out, citing to himself if to no one else that's why he cannot rely on the unreliable strength of others. SOMETHING to hint toward the reveal of how warped his view of things really is.
That said, I do have to agree about SSJB. Like, it visually looks cool, but it really didn't *do* anything meaningful for the narrative. Kinda the same for Rose. Black and Zamasu's fusion was freakin' cool though, both for its contribution to the narrative and the visual aspects. The whole transformation gimmick can be used well, but it really does need to have some purpose in the narrative beyond just "more power"/MARKETING!
Jiren was built up and not sufficiently paid off. His power was not explained. It just happened.
Wrong
@@NightmareZzK How so?
@@PlanetZoidstar How is his powers not explaned then?
@@PlanetZoidstar dude his strength was well paid off
@@NightmareZzK Not really. There was no good explanation how Jiren was able to surpass a GoD in strength.
I’m handing a power deep within me, behold my true form!!!
Now I want a Dragonball short just of Frieza mocking Super Saiyan after going gold.
Also, the first transformation happened when Puar was introduced. Or Oolong. Can't remember who appeared first anymore.
Transformation -are good in all but what would be even better if you include new technique’s or improve old ones
I liked when Masako used other anime and shows as comparison and examples.
Jiren wasnt boring due to the lack of transformation, he was boring because he became another run of the mill out of the production factory generic antagonist. When he was first introduced in the anime he was portrayed being all about justice but later on changed into being about strength by being alone. With the former it was as if Funi made their own version of Superman and planned on having the show question Goku's morals. There was a good amount of people who was excited to see how it would develop and even had the thought that Jiren may win and wishing the same wish 17 had.
If you rewatch the ToP arc you would notice a lot of plot threads and even tones of some characters being changed almost entirely. Jiren as already mentioned but Frieza as well. Remember in one of the ToP episodes, I think it was around when the first universe lost, they focused on Frieza lamenting about the Omni-King being a childish irresponsible god and hinted how he wants overthrow him? That was another great plot set up and could've turn Frieza into a good guy only to then completely drop it.
Hell, in a best case scenario if Funi wouldve stuck with their original intentions, we could've had a great moment between Jiren and Frieza where Frieza challenges Jiren's sense of justice. Pointing out Jiren is acting no better than himself by playing into the Omni-King's hands and contributing to the deaths of billions. It would be one of the very rare instances where the whole "If you do X then you're no better than X villain" line make sense.
Pay attention closely to the ToP and you can very much notice the difference of tones of Tori's writing and Funi's and when Tori's "notes" started to come in. Its just sad that they did absolutely nothing with the infinite possibilities they introduced.
Jiren is judged unfairly as we barely know anything about him and I'd argue he's somewhat unique. And about the Jiren Superman thing that sounds like pure speculation and fan theory.
With the Frieza thing I'm sorry, that's just dumb for what was probably just an off-hand remark. Even if we ignore something like Frieza overthrowing omni-king, him becoming a good guy is just ridiculous, if they done that they'd ruin Frieza's character, how they went about it in the arc was fine.
Finally your Frieza and Jiren scenario doesn't work for starters why would he of all people play the moral high ground here? He's evil. Besides what would that scene add? Jiren wouldn't doubt himself especially not when someone like Frieza telling him this. And the argument you propose doesn't work as he has no choice, in the "If you do X then you're no better than X villain" scenario the person has to have a viable alternative which Jiren doesn't so this just crumbles apart.
These ideas need a lot more thought put into them and a bunch of this is reading too much into minor details or scenes. ToP did explore some of the possibilities heck the main selling point of the ToP is the chance to see fighters from multiple universes with a variety of different abilities, techniques and themes which we got and this wasn't even all the universes. I'll admit Jiren needed more development and I'm hoping if super returns they eventually give him that until then I think there's not enough to judge him fairly on.
Jiren was one of those ideas that sounded good on paper, but was lacking in execution, mostly because he was written as more of a plot device than an actual antagonist, and didn't really do much of anything at all.
Because in tournament arc like this their is no such thing as a villain and hero's it literally revolves around fights it's the same as all tournament in db
@@xmenrock2000 This is kind of the reason why I am not a fan of tournament arcs in shonen anime. It's basically the anime equivalent of grinding for EXP in an RPG game, nothing progresses, nothing progresses the plot, it's mostly stagnation and a means of showcasing the powers of the main characters. Granted the Tournament of Power IS one of the better tournament arcs in anime (at least in my opinion), most of them are pretty much the same as each other.
Masterge77 yes I agree that’s why I didn’t think him not being a antagonist is not good
@@xmenrock2000 So according to your "logic" Piccolo Junior wasn't a villain... only because he appeared in a tournament arc?
@@_Seru_ Hate to bother you but I think he’s saying nobody was really a villain in the top
I Really like the idea of Ultra Instinct being a Goku Only thing, while Royal Blue (yes i am calling it that) is a Vegeta only thing.
3 Fighting Sayjans, Ultra Instinct Goku, Royal Blue Vegeta and "THE BANG IS DOWN" Gohan.
I like the name Royal Blue better than Evolution anyway. It suits him since he is the Prince of all Saiyans and it's the right hue. Honestly that should be the official name over Evolution because Evolution is kinda generic
The color isn't Royal Blue and if it had anything to do with royal bloodline it would go AGAINST ALL of his charecter development
I actually liked Jiren quite alot and from what i saw alot of people did to the biggest problem was when he started talking more for some reason he was alot more interesting when he was this mysterious Brick wall that just pulverized anyone that challenged him it was cool but the more we found out the less intresting we got, and i dont think we need transformation to make good interesting or even hype characters look At beerus and whis for example i think pointing more and more transformations actually hurts the overall story cause intead of this epic moment that you dont see coming you get the same old same old like watching Goku or Vegeta fight isnt suspenseful anymore cause well we know that they will get a transformation or a random power boost that will allow them to be the right strength to be able to be their opponent, Kinda why SSJ blue didnt seem as important or as impactful as SSJ God cause it was a transformation we didnt expect and it felt special but then we get things like Ssj rose which just seem like whatever and Golden freza which is just well dumb and so on and so forth it becomes watered down as opposed to those special moments that are memorable
I like the name Royal Blue for Vegeta's form in the ToP
@ザマス合がっ体たい
Eeeyup
Ive heared nothing but love to Vegetas God form
Never forget that transformations in the frieza saga is what murdered non-saiyan characters ability to ever get anywhere near as strong enough to properly contribute to any fights going forward
Piccolo should get a solid transformation out of anybody...I like Malikstudio's version of Piccolo is f'n SICK
I'm not going to sit here and just complain about SS God/SS Blue being nothing more than a color swap from the regular base form/SS transformation, but I remember when it was first revealed...ugh...I remember thinking about how people talk trash about GT but SS4 was FAR better design wise than the "god tier" transformations!
SS4 (to me) symbolized the PEAK of Saiyan power by mastering a hybrid of the Great Ape and base form into one powerful transformation. That meant more to me for the race than a color swap just to be "god level." I hope SS4 or a similar form is brought to the spotlight in the near future.
Was the great ape before Roshis at ox kings?
Zamas[u] had that final form after Trunks cut hit physical body. It makes sense when you think that his wish for immortality was still in effect, but at first it seemed like a butt pull.
Thank goodness for the major female characters in the ToP. They kept things interesting, and their transformations didn't hurt character development in the slightest. And 17? Thanks. I always wanted someone to do that.
Physical transformation is a literary device; a metaphor for the mental change happening with the character. We've gotten so used to this in the Dragonball series (hell, in Anime in general) and expect it so much, that in its absence, we mistakenly conclude that there is no mental change as well. So Jiren became uncanny, in a way, in that we cold tell he was having a mental change over the course of the ToP, but we couldn't *see* the evidence of that change in a change of form. Granted, we *did* get physical changes in Jiren in terms of his changing expressions and emotiveness over the course of the arc. He goes from being an extremely stoic, emotionless entity to varying degrees of surprise, anger, and even happiness that there was finally someone on his level that could give him a challenge. In a way, he's Boros from OPM, but without physical transformations that reflect his mental progression. And that really makes all the difference. Going with the comparison to OPM, even Saitama has very distinct visual style changes going from his soft-style dopey-faced look for everyday disinterest to the sharp, crisp battle-ready look when he starts to get interested in his opponent. If Jiren had more visual styling added to his expression to really put on full display his changing mental state over the course of the arc, I think he wouldn't have come off as being so static and boring.
Are u talking about his lb from being bland
1:28 Colgate: we brighten your smile before we put dents in it. WITH OUR FISTS!!!
Dyspo, Toppo, and Kahserahl were all fun characters that I want to see more of. Jiren needs to lighten up at the very least.
Are you basically saying Dyspo, topping, kahserahl are fun expect Jiren????
What if instead of bardock going into the past. He went into the future? It would be cool to think about how he would have effected each ark or saga from the cell saga to tournament of power
Komodo Drags but it really depends how far he goes. if he ends up in super he will be completely useless in power. if he ends up in the android saga he may become useful with several years in the time chamber.
@@thegalacticflamingo207 I agree about if he was in super he would be useless. Not much for him to do in any ark. Maybe he could spend time with goten and trucks. Kind of be a comic relief character
Coming back to this after Ultra Ego and Instinct, makes you think Masako called it.
It's pretty much verified, anyone with enough power can give them selves a transformation.. not 100% but i believe toriyama will give beerus and Jiren a transformation eventually. Beerus even commented on the weird aliens with a warrior transformation in the first arc.. but he wasn't surprised like he could do it too if he wanted.
Vegeta needs a transformation that is linked to his royal heritage, an then a form that’s even stronger which is him excepting he cares not for his sayian pride as much as he cares for his loved ones I’m thinking
Royal Blue or Ruler Purple = his Royal heritage
And maybe either super sayian green for his connection to the earth and his loved ones.
Just a thought course I’d like there to be a bit more to these forms than just a colour swap
I always thought they should have leaned into Jiren's seeming apathy rather than give power *because* of his rage and fear. Making him more 'one punch man'-esk, and giving him a source of his power. Namely, Buddhistic detachment. Have him embrace, not entropy like Toppo, but the absence of meaning and so transcend the Gods of Destruction and the other enemies by being almost "outside" the cycle. That would have given him a power, justified his alien appearance (by making him truly alien as the first enemy free of most ego in the series), explained why he didn't do anything in the tournament until necessary (he only "cares" in the context that he knows a small part of himself may not have fully broken the bounds of cyclicality and so only acts when that chance is threatened - he created the guardians to stabilize his universe into tranquility), and it would help justify his defeat as he begins to face the first real challenges he's had in years from Goku, Vegeta, and the others. By sparking passion in him, they bring him back to mortality. By bringing him back to mortality he become defeatable. By being defeated, he suffers a different sort of enlightenment that would reveal his detachment to be false and start him on a road to new enlightenment. They could have even had his transformation be a *downgrade* in that context, changing him into some sort of more armored or detailed form that he had shed as he had shed his attachments.
You raise a lot of interesting points on the Japanese perspective of transformations, I really like all that, but I still disagree that Jiren needed to transform. In fact, I LOVE that he doesn't transform. It's kinda refreshing. I love that Jiren is just...himself. He's this single, unchanging wall that the heroes needed to figure out how to scale. That's how far above everyone he is. His BASE form is insurmountable. (This applies to both Beerus and Hit too for that matter!)
To a certain extent, I think Jiren going full power against MUI Goku sufficed in terms of "revealing his truest self." He shed the uniform of the Pride Troopers and was just this massive hulking figure surrounded by a red sun of ki. All the products of his training were laid bare. In fact, I prefer the shirtless full power Jiren over Pride Trooper Jiren for that very reason! Visually and narratively, him going full power was more interesting that the Jiren at the start of the ToP!
Again, Jiren not having any traditional transformations is really refreshing. I think people would've hated Jiren MORE if he had had to go through actual transformations during the ToP. Not only would they have called him generic, but played out as well. While Jiren's backstory may not be unique, I think the way they handled him as a threat was.
10 super saiyans across the series including both future and present trunks. I disinclude Cumber and Bardock. For obvious reasons. Hey I can count! As for transformations I like them all except SSJB. But my personal favorite is UI. Nothing brings out such a smile on my face quite like UI. It only comes from desperation to survive which is incredibly rare for someone like Goku. Jiren doesn’t need to transform, but he shouldn’t be used as an antagonist anymore. Hit, Jiren, and Goku are all aiming for power to keep others at bay and they all take different methods. Hit uses weird powers, Jiren uses pure power and energy condensing (note that all of Jiren’s attacks don’t take up much space and light up that whole realm he’s in on impact) and Goku uses transformations. My hope is that they will learn from each other’s strengths to combine together and get further beyond. I know that Jiren and Hit night not have any way to evolve through transformation, but maybe they learn from the different outputs of each instead of casting them aside as inferior.
Piccolo needs a transformation other than the great namekian that can be as strong as super sayian God if not stronger
Happy Goku day Masako
Did anyone else get an ad for Colgate?
I think the reason blue lack this impact is...Its not really a new transformation.
Its just Super Saiyan with Divine KI which sound like an epic concept but in practice just blends two concepts we already had. Its like Super Kaioken, it doesn't feel the same because nothing of substance has been added.
And SSB was pulled out of the writer's ass.
I get what you mean when you say that Super Saiyan Blue is lackluster in comparison to the other Saiyan transformations, but I think I can put a meaningful spin on it. It all has to do with Goku saying he didn't feel like he earned the power of Super Saiyan God. The first time we see Blue, Goku could have said something along the lines of trying to make the power his own so it felt like he earned it this time. As for Vegeta, who honestly despises asking others for help, he could have said something like, "I would have taken no pride in asking someone else to give me this power. I pushed myself to the brink to make it all my own." In hindsight, Super Saiyan Blue is very simplistic when you look at it as a Super Saiyan transformation driven by a different type of energy, i.e. god ki, but simplistic ideas have limitless potential because you can do anything with them so long as you put some real thought into how you use them.
I would agree, their was way too many transformations. Like SSG SSGB SSBE and UI..
I wish they would have made Super Saiyan God important..like ya Goku used it to fight Beerus but, that is it they just move onto Super Saiyan. This is a legendary form. That is even more powerful then Super Saiyan and SS was a big deal for a long time with Vegeta wanting to obtain it and then surpassing the first level.
Super Saiyan God matters too.
I agree Dragon Ball needs to avoid any more transformations that are just power boosts in the future, on the other hand I'm totally open for specialized transformations that give special powers/abilities. This would make DB a bit more interesting instead of the usual two fighters hammering at each other until one of them overpowers the other with some kind of "new" power boosting transformation.
Still I don't have much hope for that since it seams DB is set in it's ways and the high ups, Toriyama included don't really get the fans anymore they just think that sprinkling new transformations here and there will keep the hype going so that they can sell their merch.
Imma be honest here
Instead of the ritual
I'd like for the form to be 1st achieved like this
Absorbing the positivity of the people and the planet.
It kinda sounds like super sonic and how THAT form works but I feel like if they were gonna push that positivity in Dragon ball then the more his planet believes in him, the stronger he gets and the energy he gets from them doesn't give out unless his body does.
Can you do a what is Goku was raised by bulma's parents please.
Yeah i back this up. What if Goku was raised by the briefs
Goku would actually be smart and sophisticated.
Equis intelligence is more than just upbringing
Dragon Jay Z ; in real life true but in fiction not exactly someone raised by intelligent parents becomes intelligent
I think Mondo cool did that before. But it would be cool to see Masako’s take on it.
Masanko! What about original dragon ball? When there were NO transformations?
The original Dragon Ball didn't rely on transformations as much; the Great Ape form was such a shocking twist which made it stand out and over time transformations became much more frequent. The adventure angle of the early days plus the mystical aspect kept it going!
@@MasakoX MAX Power Roshi was also there, and is interesting because it's so radically unexpected from the little old man he comes across as.
As a jiren fan I respect this breakdown on something that’s boring about jiren. However I’ll say this jiren had aura transformation, some of the best looking ones in the series!
Your conclusion is what I'm looking forward to in the manga, Masako. Moro's unique abilities make it so he literally cannot be overpowered by an opponent. With this, I hope Toyotaro can develop the story and characters so that they find new ways of thinking and fighting other than powering up until you're stronger than your opponent. Buu might seem primed to reset the status quo, but Moro being cunning, I doubt that it will be so simple.
Honestly that would be so refreshing a new twist into the series/story
Super sayian 4 is always going to be my favorite
Also shout out to Veutiful Joe(and no I spelled that wrong)!!