Why the Theory of the Bicameral Mind is so Profound
Vložit
- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- Join our discord server at Patreon: / nexusvoid
In this video I discuss why I am so interested in the theory of the bicameral mind and give an overview of the theory.
0:00 - Intro to the theory
1:33 what is consciousness
4:15 the iliad
9:03 where did the gods come from
11:45 the earliest cities were ruled by divine entities
16:18 talking to statues
19:37 schizophrenia
22:30 the double brain
23:04 shamanism
Some years ago, I gave a presentation to a group of colleagues who included psychologists, educators and indigenous counselors on the subject of the bicameral mind and Jaynes' theories. The psychs asked a few polite questions, and when the group dispersed an older aboriginal counselor approached me, thanked me for the discussion and revealed that he had experienced exactly the phenomenon I had described. Only when he left his remote outback community, gained an education and worked with other groups of people did the voices recede, although he still experienced them at times. An irony is that he and I were part of a professional team who were tasked with addressing mental health issues with our clients, including schizophrenia. The indigenous gentleman and I both felt that we might be trying to cure a non-disease, or going about it in the wrong way. Excellent work and please produce more videos like this one.
Incredible story, thanks for sharing!
Non - disease ❤
Schizophrenia is a complex disease with definitely more than just hearing voices putting it's sufferers at a disadvantage, but I hear what you are saying.
Simply hearing voices is, in my opinion, not a sign of poor mental health.
I would absolutely LOVE to see you do a video about how the characters in the Iliad emerge from their bicamerality. If it is indeed the case that this happens, could it not be the case that it means that the Homerian epic serves as a sort of allegory for the emergence of self-awareness itself? We currently look at the epic as an ancient example of how mankind told stories or recorded historical events, and Jaynes exxavates from it the evidence that would eventually become the theory of the Bicameral Mind.
I, too, have wondered why the Odyssey has a completely different style, in which the bicameral indicia of the Iliad are absent. Could it be, then, that the two epic poems are indeed examples of mankind wrestling with its nascent self-awareness? It MUST have been confusing for people living through this transition, and using a story about heroes may have been the most effective medium of expression.
That's why I think it would be very illuminating to dive into the way the characters in Iliad develop over the course of the epic. And I think you are the perfect person to do it. I don't know if this makes sense. I wrote a much longer comment, but I think I will just email you about it.
I have a new outro screen! Watch to the end to see it
💯 but it difficult..the bicameral mind
Wonderful summary (and some fine ''riffing''). I read this book as a teenager and never forgot the way it explained so much (like why I would suddenly start writing in rhyme when under stress). No idea if it's true or if it is falsifiable as a true scientific theory must be. But I know it was the kind of book one can't set down!
Wooow 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 Today I hear for the first time about Julian Jaynes' theory. Then, find this channel and... This information blows my mind!!!
I am so sure that this theory is the best explanation ever made for the origin of consciousness. Fascinating!
I'm a psychologist btw.
we have 🧠 , yeah ... what do we mean by the word Mind ?
Great video. Very solid off the cuff analyses. Keep 'em coming.
You were my first intro into this theory. Where most people would’ve resisted the theory, I seem to gravitate toward it rather smoothly. Maybe because I agreed with Julian Jaynes definition of consciousness as being that which is introspective. Since then I’ve read his book, with only just afterword to get through. It definitely just makes the most sense of what was going in the past with these gods and in various separated cultures. It makes sense, to me anyway, though wild and bizarre as well.
Read Rene Girard
Fantastic content. I love this format. Very professional
Read his book when it first came out. It has always been for me a most important idea of how we got to this point. So glad I’m not the only one. I’m now going to check out all your other vids. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Very good concise and thorough insight into this fascinating topic. Thank you.
thanks for the video ,great as always.please continue on the subject of the bicameral mind ,I would also like to see updated ancient egyptian concepts relating to topic like the one you did about the "kha". also if you are interested can you explore this subject in the context of occultism , specifically western occultism post golden dawn ( you can search for difference between "magic" and "magick" online that would lead you straight to the heart of it.these two subjects started to converge in oppinion.
Thanks for the great video I watch them all the more the better thank you
Great video. Thank you for making it.
Oh wow, this is awesome. Thanks for the video man.
Sweet! A follow up!
Thank you for renewing my fascination with this concept.
Schizophrenia has alot of parallells to this state. Some schizophrenics are able to tickle themselves because their brain is unable to recognize that their muscles are moving of their own volition. So its in effect like being tickled by a stranger.
Fascinating stuff. Makes a lot of sense.
It's good to see the expansion of your channel and the different styles that reflect your psychological and spiritual growth; although, I do enjoy the old scripted method that characterizes your earlier presentations.
Your explanation is very helpful! Thank you!
I'm so glad I found this channel.
I commented on another video, but must again say that this is a rather good take, and demonstrates a really good grasp on Jaynes--which basically never happens. Kudos my dude
I have the Jaynes book myself, haven't picked it up in years. I've always thought that it sounds like a form of developmental schizophrenia necessitated by the rigors of existing, eventually codifying itself into self-referentiality within an establishing culture.
sounds about right, I wonder what the nature of that transition is, ontologically and phylogenetically. We are unconscious when we are born and suddenly gain consciousness at an early age.
@@nexusvoid314 Right, that information is the only thing that's keeping it in the "theoretical" sphere I'm guessing, as there's no metric for it.
I wonder how Bicamerality fits with the useful conceptions that Freud had of Id, Ego and Superego... does removing the Ego collapse this system into another? Is Bicamerality akin to Id and Superego only existence? It does seem like the Superego may be equivalent to "the Gods"... maybe what we call Bicamerality is really an alternative understanding of the source of the Superego "voice" in our head, judging our actions and thoughts with a conscientiousness that we recognize as calling us to our better selves.
I came back to this video out of lingering interest, and think I'll add another comment here:
This discussion made me think of a video lecture that professor Norman Finkle (expert on cuneiform tablets and ancient Mesopotamia) where he discusses ghosts, daemons and sorcery of Sumer and Akkad. He explained (I forget his exact sources) that everyday life for these ancient peoples had the presence of ghosts/spirits of the dead who would appear to people and speak to them and otherwise interact with them, most often people they knew who died like family members, and that people would come to sorcerers for help provide practical magic to assist these spirits in "passing on" from this world.
There were so many recipes and instructions for dealing with situations like this and when it came to funerary fites, it seems that a lot of emphasis was on magic to ensure that people pass on to the next world.
It wasn't only ghosts though, they were concerned with various daemons, some good and some evil, that would cause certain phenomenon. One I recall he spoke about was a female daemon that would come to snatch an infant's life away during childbirth and how people were given these totems of another protector daemon to bury in front of their front door to ward her away. Fun fact, this protector daemon (its name was something like Zuzabnub) was defamed in the movie "The Excorcist" as the evil daemon who possesses the child.
But in any case, this all seems like it might fit with the idea of the bicameral mind, or maybe a transition state between that and the more modern psyche where such hallucinations had begun to recede to become a more occasional phenomenon. From the way the prof described it, it sounded like it would happen most often at home and possibly alone?
Anyway, this kind of thing might also be related to modern people's spiritual experiences where Jesus or God appears to them.
All pretty fascinating. There does seem to be several periods of psychological transition during different epochs of time such as when evidence of more abstraction and art appeared in cave drawings and totems intensifying some 40,000 years ago, or what's called the Axial Age from maybe 8th century BC to 8th century AD when it's said that the major world religions appeared and spread (though I may have placed the time-span too wide). What makes something a world-religion btw is that it's a God, doctrain and moral code meant for a universal humanity and not so much the Gods of the tribe, place, culture, etc. or in other words not a religion more limited in time and place (though there's probably more too it than what I'm recalling here).
Please make more bicameral mind videos! By the way, in the book titled The Julian Jaynes Collection, Jaynes discusses the soft (non falsifiable) form of his theory that there wasn't so much of a dramatic transformation between bicameral and conscious man in the bronze age, but that it was very gradual and not complete. The soft form of the theory states that since ancient man oscillated between bicamerality and consciousness, so does modern man, just to different extents. If you want to look up the reference, it's on pg. 286 of The Julian Jaynes Collection.
Such a fascinating topic 👍
Thank you Nexus Void. A very honest interpretation of the past.
If you're able to find the way for yourself, dropping the duality of your inner monologue is one of the greatest ways to undo anxiety. In recent years, we've had this anxiety ramped up by all of the contradiction and division shown in Western societies. If you achieve this, you'll notice that that little voice in your head becomes much less. And, one of the ways to achieve this is to begin questioning ALL of your thoughts. And to stop "believing" they're all true.
Long live Nexus, thank you sir, just keep speaking your mind, we need it 🙏
Thank you, I will
Interesting ,understandable, well presented .
well articulated
Fresh
When waking up one morning in around 2016-2017 I was woken up by voices muttering amongst themselves and then a man's voice yelled "I am the light". It was incomprehensible save a few words.
At first I thought someone had broken in, then contemplated whether it was paranormal and now I'm confused as to how mind created such a believable voice (hallucination).
This happened when I was waking up and that stage in-between waking and sleeping is also prone to causing things such as sleep paralysis. I've also seen shadow people, spiders and heard cannon fire during these in-between states.
I wonder if it was caused by some connection between the two hemispheres of my brain at the time? The bicameral theory has me really interested in this idea.
Oh my lordy lordy. I've been reading Man and His Symbols and watching hours of Carl Jung videos on CZcams and I'm beginning to put all these pieces together from different shit he talks about and my brain is getting all veiny.
Well, it's about time lol
That was a bad ass lesson really enjoyed it
This is such a fascinating idea, and I’m currently doing some reading on consciousness. One question I have about the bicameral mind is, in order to perceive that a “god” is speaking to you, doesn’t there need to be some kind of ego or “I” already present to notice it? Maybe the bicameral hallucinations didn’t create consciousness, maybe they were something more Freudian, representing urges or wishes that came to the surface which were so foreign to our present urge that we made sense of them by saying they came from elsewhere? Great video, this has given me lots to think about!
Read Rene Girard on the origin of gods
I've always wondered why humans are obsessed with rectangles and squares. Even stuff that does not need to be squared, such as toilets and lights, is often modified to be squared, specially in modern and postmodern styles. I guess it is an archetypical quality that is still in us since agriculture, where we started using squared fields for better yields. No other animal does that... in a sense, we are being used by the Archetypical Shape of Square to manifest itself, just as these gods did.
It is possible but squares are quite practical, easy to measure and handle, it’s stayed with us most likely for these reasons. When it comes to fixtures it could also be for ease of handling and standardization in industries. In other words it’s cheaper but less diverse and hence boring estethically
I’ve wondered the same thing? It’s especially strange considering we don’t see rectangles or squares in nature. Maybe we create squares because it’s an outward expression of our internal selves? I’m also writing this inside a square text box 😂
Just discovered your channel - this is fantastic content! Have you heard of third man factor, or third man syndrome? It is the phenomenon where people who are under intense stress feel accompanied by an unseen spirit/presence that sometimes offers comfort or direction/advice. It sounds extremely similar to the role of a God for a bicameral man. Perhaps extreme stress does something to our brains to activate this type of hallucination. If you're interested, I believe I first heard of it when reading about the Endurance expedition to explore the Antarctic. Anyway, keep up the good work!
Yes actually, I was planning on making a video about it.
Around 02:00 - what distinguishes us from other animals; some animals are indeed "cognizant" (able to use tools and respond independently to one's environment, including distinguish "me" in a mirror) but only humans are "sentient" - or you could say "meta-cognizant"
We don't just know - we *know* that we know
Around 08:00 - that's *not quite* right. More like, humans didn't know that "inner voice" that some people hear - when thinking, or reading - is actually themselves, their "consciousness". So, they called that voice a "god"
When "prophets" say a "god" is speaking to them... that's that little voice we all hear
It's definitely NOT a case of "ancient people had no ego"
This made me think of a video that professor Norman Finkle (expert on cuneiform tablets and ancient Mesopotamia) where he discusses ghosts, daemons and sorcery of Sumer and Akkad. He explained (I forget his exact sources) that everyday life for these ancient peoples had the presence of ghosts/spirits of the dead who would appear to people and speak to them and otherwise interact with them, most often people they knew who died like family members, and that people would come to sorcerers for help provide practical magic to assist these spirits in "passing on" from this world.
There were so many recipes and instructions for dealing with situations like this and when it came to funerary fites, it seems that a lot of emphasis was on magic to ensure that people pass on to the next world.
It wasn't only ghosts though, they were concerned with various daemons, some good and some evil, that would cause certain phenomenon. One I recall he spoke about was a female daemon that would come to snatch an infant's life away during childbirth and how people were given these totems of another protector daemon to bury in front of their front door to ward her away. Fun fact, this protector daemon (its name was something like Zuzabnub) was defamed in the movie "The Excorcist" as the evil daemon who possesses the child.
But in any case, this all seems like it might fit with the idea of the bicameral mind, or maybe a transition state between that and the more modern psyche where such hallucinations had begun to recede to become a more occasional phenomenon. From the way the prof described it, it sounded like it would happen most often at home and possibly alone?
Anyway, this kind of thing might also be related to modern people's spiritual experiences where Jesus or God appears to them.
All pretty fascinating. There does seem to be several periods of psychological transition during different epochs of time such as when evidence of more abstraction and art appeared in cave drawings and totems intensifying some 40,000 years ago, or what's called the Axial Age from maybe 8th century BC to 8th century AD when it's said that the major world religions appeared and spread (though I may have placed the time-span too wide). What makes something a world-religion btw is that it's a God, doctrain and moral code meant for a universal humanity and not so much the Gods of the tribe, place, culture, etc. or in other words not a religion more limited in time and place (though there's probably more too it than what I'm recalling here).
My voice is saying keep up the good work!
Ian McGilchrist has updated the characteristics of the hemispheres. The Master and His Emissary and the later The Matter with Things (which explores more of the implications).
Would you recommend the lectures he puts out?
@@nexusvoid314 They are quite good - listenable and accessible. But they are about the implications of the bicameral mind. Not so much the two hemispheres, the topic of the earlier book. In the new book there is a good summary of the older one (The Master and his Emissary - the master being the right brain and his emissary the left.)
I want more bicameral mind videos!
coming your way!
well explained
ty
Mind blowing 🌶🌶🌶
This is faacinating. I wanted to add another perspective. The idea that our relationahip to the the gods as master and slave isnt the only possible relationship model. Another model is one of cooperative relationships. We can work with the gods not just for them, particularly when we may need something.
I am schizophrenic but I don't hear voices, all my hallucinations are limited to a couple words changing in a song coupled with a feeling that explains the change. I also used them sometimes to bounce my ideas back to me in a novel fashion, which is in line with this idea. I also don't experience people speaking in my dreams, I wonder if somehow the two are connected after hearing you speak.
This was a great video. Philosopher and Author R. Scott Bakker wrote a series called the Second Apocalypse that explored this idea in great detail. Give it a shot if you're a fan of fantasy/fiction
Did you ever do debate in school? Your speech cadence reminds me of my Parliamentary Debate days in college lol
Good work, son. You're in the army of those disc'overing- un'cove'ring the road hOMe... back to The Garden. Radhe Syama.
Please do the Egyptian and Mesopotamian Bicameral minds videos!
Will do!
julian jaynes of McGill already wrote an book about mesopotamian
Ian Mcgilchrist also goes into similar ideas. The problem is that our society is obsessed with left, details, facts. It makes sense why they were hoodwinked in the 2020 panic and the result, the jabs
I've began to intentionally disassociate parts of my mentality away from myself by forming a mental archetype of Gods. It's actually worked, occasionally I'll hear a voice I don't instantly realize is mine.
Hi, such an interesting topic! Well done! 😄👍🙏
I’d like to see/hear more on Schizophrenia. I hear voices myself and agree about ego dissolving. Actually in fact I get information I would otherwise not known about. Sometimes I get words that I don’t know and have to look them up in a dictionary to get the definition. I believe it’s more of a Jungian collective un/consciousness, where there’s way more connection with others. Actually I believe that is what God is - collective mentality.
Kind regards
1:40
"ego consciousness."
Alt: the word "objectivity" substituted for "consciousness" illuminates Jaynes also.
Awareness that "The universe exists independent of consciousness, either human or divine." (Ayn Rand)
Objectivity that the world outside you is real, and not created by you.
The question that arises is why do we think that all humans had bicameral mind versus only few individuals with delusion disorder/schizophrenia who subsequently rose to power due to their "ability" to communicate with the Gods?
Put together well, despite the references to evolution. Darwin's evolution is equitable to a tornado rolling through a junkyard and constructing a brand new iphone 12... without there being any pieces to construct any mobile device within that junkyard. But, overlooking such completely, this filled me in about a book and theory that i hadn't read or considered, respectively.
We, as a society, should further embrace the schizophrenic and provide a place for them in our Western societies. There is MUCH to be gleaned from those who experience a reality beyond the everyday most of us see.
Can you make a video comparing Julian Jaynes's and Ian McGilchrist's theories about bicameral mind? Thanks for the video!
It’s interesting because all early religions even modern basically have the same gods. It would be interesting to learn if native Americans experienced this.
If a human can survive and even thrive without the top half of their head, our brains may have very-well functioned upon evolving OS's at various points throughout our biological and cultural evolution. I'd love to hear a psychologist seriously talk about the bicameral mind and modern schizo disorders. Is my schizo-effective sister-in-law working with an outdates OS?
Question? are the thoughts i witness as narration all direct unconscious material ?
You are the first I've ever heard put this concept into words. I think this is on the right track. Now a question: the resurrection trope - given this line of thinking, how can I understand a god (mind voice) dying and then coming back to life, usually after a follower of said God does something or a sequence of things. Jesus is said to have told his followers that they must 'raise up the son of man', for example.
For the ancients, was it better to have an isolated sense of ego, like we seem to have today, or not?
Also, do they explain exactly how they were able to communicate with the gods, aka their higher unconscious mind?
@pleaseee do one on individuating And the bicameral mind please @nexus void
Did the individuals who became kings perhaps have subjective minds and were thust able to act as gods?
You should delve into evidence for bicameralism in the Bible! I've heard Amos is one of the oldest books and shows clear evidence of bicameralism compared to new testament texts.
Read Rene Girard
Would there be an opposite?
Complete and utter silence caused by raw untamed awareness of the self?
Yes
I really enjoyed this video and this topic, but I think a big part of this is similar to how the Pope came to power or how god-kings came to power, people use hierarchy to advance themselves above others. This leads me to disagree with one of your points being made: "So even though it seems like by believing in a god and by having a bicameral mind you would have been enslaved in actuality you would have been more free because again this god came from your own mind so in a sense you were just commanding yourself."
Top of the foodchain content
nice hair cut my brother
But the illiad was written not long before Plato and the rest, so how did he know of this internal hallucination? And how do we suppose the change occured so quick? Also, considering the greek's invention of comedy and tragedy and so many other devices of art, I think it is much more likely that it is a artistic device which is also trying to push the moral code which would ensure the stability of the grecian way of life and their political system
"Artistic devices" have to come from *somewhere*
@@SamGarcia to be honest my comment was so long ago I don't really remember what it was all about. I agree, the devices definitely came from somewhere. Whether that's wishful thinking, mental illness, or drug induces states (I suppose there are other places as well, just can't think of them right now).
interesting theory... its seems that the human need a notion of something beyond, more powerfull in order to become more powerfull himself. I wonder if that notion its today alive in another "object" or "personality".
Most the people ive met aren't more conscious than an animal.
He taught Adam all the names [of things], then He showed them to
the angels and said, ‘Tell me the names of these if you truly [think
you can].’ Quraan 2;31
Thats like saying you cant see colors that you havent previously named.
you can see them, but it's harder to distinguish between them
HAVEYOU EVER HEARD OF PRAVEEN MOHAN?
Meta-consciousness more conciss, Bernardo Kastrup clarifies this.
@ 9 4 3 ..speak to my sub psyche all the time 😎😉 nothing wrong with that .
Dude… if this theory had any legs at all, we’d see it in aboriginal humans that have no genetic links to Eurasian populations.
If Eurasian populations had a bicameral mind 7,000 years ago or less, and that changed at some point and the spread (a bit like lactose tolerance), why wouldn’t we still see it in some cut off populations like Australian aboriginals or Amazon jungle tribes with no outsider admixture?
Interesting but I am not sold immediately on this idea.
I have a related theory: That the knowledge or intelligence of individual humans is largely unimportant. We are cells of larger super organisms that function through incentive structures as if they are conscious beings. Those beings could be called "Gods" without much exaggeration. You and I have no idea how to build a computer, or even a pencil. But groups of humans, working through systems can. Any humans refusing to follow the incentive structures lose power in the dominance hierarchy and so those who serve the right gods and make the right sacrifices... they do well. Until the gods no longer need them. My guess is that this has been going on since just before we developed Writing and Agriculture.
What would you call an enlightened person or someone who has attained nirvana like buddha
A person who has consciousness. Thank you Jesus and Buddha for bringing consciousness to humanity
@@galenflynn398 no enlightment is when your mind and its chatter ceases to exist you experience life as it is without interference of the mind
@@galenflynn398 jesus did not attain nirvana he also said he could speak to god
@@sanchan7312 Thank you Yes, He brought us out of our slumber. Praise God
@@galenflynn398 only jesus is great others who follows other religions are szichos right wow jesus chrust was just a master and your church has twisted his teachings you have destroyed the lives of so many people with your conversions
We did create god
What about the structures. We humans can not build today.
Hey man, I have relevant information regarding this topic that will blow you away. I'm not willing to discuss my findings with regular people but since you are already right ther, I'm willing to discuss my findings with you. Let me know if you're interested, I'm not lying to you when I say it's gonna blow you away.
Is it that we are all being controlled. Everything is set up not just in each individuals mind but as a whole so all the pieces fit together. Our bodies are actually moving separately from us most of the time and everything down to each movement, perception and emotion is calculated? I would like to hear what you have to say but the last person I had this conversation with told me to go fk myself they didn't want to hear my pathetic opinion
If Darwinian evolution is false would you revise your understanding of the things you are speaking about in this video?
Probably not, Darwinian evolution is only a small part of it.
wow what a cutie 🥰
The reason the theory is interesting is because it makes more manifest how laughable an atheistic-darwinist vision of evolution is.
What about the transition from old testement to the new testement, from god and us to trinity, where jesus the becomes the mediator... i think it's the same. It's answer for development of the ego. If you believe so what could be the manifestation of quaternity... our future self? can we imagine that or are we already getting into that state of consciousness? it would be great if you create a video about this if you believe it's worthy... Thanks man you channel is an eye opener.