Whether you agree with Professor Jaynes or don't this is one of the most fascinating books ever written. Don't be intimidated by the title. Disagree with him, he'd have pulled up his sleeves and dug in!
I skimmed this book in high school. My parents library had all these cool books but only 2 have stuck with me 15 years later - Julian Jaynes, and P.D. Ouspensky A new model of the universe. Ouspensky particularly I flipped through many times. I thought of Jaynes the other day at the beginning of this new Jay Z video where this guy talks about a sort of near death experience where he hears a voice telling him something like "I'm not ready to take you yet, you have more to do". I only had a little contact with Jaynes' work but it had a very outsized effect on the way I see the mind today I think. I'm glad WestWorld is promoting his concept!
The theory is too complex to cover in a brief interview, the idea is just to call people's attention to it. If you're interested I would encourage you to read the the books on Jaynes's theory: "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind," "The Julian Jaynes Collection," and "Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness." These books both explain the theory as well as provide answers to many of the most common questions.
C Brieeze oh my, you need to study some of the mesopotamian tablets that have been dug up in Ur and other mesopotamian cities. One such tablet found out to be from near the dawn of consciousness interpreted to read: A man who walks about without his god is like a man who walks about with a headache. Besides, how can you say the exodus didn't happen when the whole democratic party are wandering the desert right now?
the thing is, even if you dont agree his theories are true, his ideas are fascinating and enlightening. one of the most thought provoking things ive ever read.
It could be the small still voice which has your best interests vs the loud egoic thinking which botched up your life, but gives the illusion of free will.
The concept is that consciousness as we experience it today is a current development, and that in the recent past, new faculties and capabilities have evolved. My interpretation is that before mass communication, the world was naturally perceived to be very unknown, "fuzzy", like what is described in various levels of out of body, or psychedelic, or schizophrenic, or other 'psychic' experiences & phenomenon.
Language was not the impetus, per se; rather, it was the use of language to form metaphors. And these metaphors essentially allowed the formation of a "mind space" for the analogue eye. e.g. i "see" what you are talking about. "shine a light" on the situation.
When one has a maladaptive state of constant readiness one can talk to the right side subconscious while fully awake. The logic brain when tasked with a long term goal works on it like a job and reports back as a separate entity
Not so much language because most first language did not contain introspection. The addition of many new metaphors and analogies sparked consciousness or at least this is my opinion
Galen Flynn It's our alphabet and the introduction of the phoneme that caused the change in perspective. Pictorial languages and their derivatives are more limited to discussions of reality
There's a confusion in some people. One thing is Consciousness (a self-experience, in 1st person, a subjective feeling of 'I am') and another is the conscious (related to the Freudian and jungian concepts about subconscious and unconscious).
There are also theories that consciousness preceds matter. Interesting book. Another perspective among many others. Perhaps they all have a grain of truth.
"There's no such thing as free will". One might argue that it's not a 'thing' but that doesn't help. The concept is not just unfounded, it's incoherent. Incoherent! Will is what moves your muscles, when you're hungry, to make a sandwich. What does 'free' add to it? Nothing. You can either make a sandwich or you can't. It's late, I'm tired, others have argued better.
Government, when it does what it does well (protecting people and their property) is not mystical... however, when it goes beyond that it becomes a mystical authority.
In the beginning was, the sharpest stick. Hey that was great. Im interested in the managed evolution of todays cows, can you make a pod about that subject pls? Particularly as the bull was worshipped in the desert.
Yes, consciousness is defined in more than one way. BUT in contemporary research there is one thing in common all reseachers. By consciousness is meant subjectivity. Subjectivity means any, whatsoever, subjective experience. It does not need verbal thought. Consciousness is not introspection. Yes, I do believe that verbal thoughts might´ve been first believed to be "the voice of God". But who would hear the voice in the head without consciousness? Consciousness per se shouldn´t be confused with the bicameral theory as such. Ps. Of course, anyone can define any word the way they want, but I wouldn´t want to define some term in, say, physics in a way that no physicist uses:)
Oh yeah, Dennet is mentioned. Almost everyone in the study of consciousness disagrees with Dennet about consciousness. The bicameral brain and evolution of verbal thought is one thing. Consciousness is another thing. There wouldn´t be anyone in whose mind the language starts happening without consciousness. So, no consciousness cannot be thaught via language.
@@nimim.markomikkila1673 Do you remember what it was like floating in your mother's womb? Are you familiar with Piaget's work on critical stages during childhood development? Do you remember the first time you said 'Mama'? How it was before and after? Even a nematode can be conditioned. What are the odds that an elderly mind has an excellent, crisp, accurate remembrance of how consciousness manifested in the time before learning language? "Almost everyone in the study of the heavens disagrees with Galileo about consciousness". Who you trying to kid?
I’m new to all this…set me straight here…is science truly trying to prove that a piece of meat thinking and talking to people inside their heads (or being “rational”) isn’t something of a miracle…granted it is organic meat but… talking meat.
A different way of looking at consciousness ~how old is really? Where do all the voices that people claim to hear apparently from nowhere come from? More questions than answers here, so far. @Peta_de_Aztlan
The religion idea is the integrative idea operating through symbol, image and narrative identity. Whereas the symbol or model of a unity is an imaged state to which life is then fitted - and therefore the idea of religion as lord over or dominion/domination and rules, the recognition of self-image as image is the opening to appreciation of the whole (unconflicted or unconditional acceptance) flowing through the structure of consciousness that previously blocked by substitution. So I use religion in a more etymological sense of unifying relation. The gods of antiquity are associated directly with the planets as then were experienced collectively around the world. Velikovsky opened the door and it was slammed shut in his face. The manner in which insight and information is censored is itself the sign of hitting a mark. The opening of the mind from what it thinks it is to that which moves through it and reflects to it is like unto a multifaceted crystal.
What if we heard the right hemisphere, but environment influenced the heard spirit. I mean, many got "divine" messages of child- and human sacrifice. While there was that one that lead to Yeshu Christ and later on universal human rights a.k.a. the free world.
Here's my 2 cents: Whatever quirk makes people to group and form into warring tribes, and allows them to think enough to develop better killing machines, that is the group that will prevail in nature. Guilt and empathy are a liability for the species. Warring tribes that have good effective war technology/machines, they will survive, even conquer, and procreate. Defeated groups will not survive or procreate, or at least not as well as the warring tribes with the better war technology/machines. Maybe religion is a binding cohesive force for the society, and allows group action, which is more effective than individual action, where it comes to war and group survival. And man needs to survive as a group, as individuals are more at the mercy of nature. But there might be something else driving the species onto a "next stage" of evolution. What we are moving to, I don't know, wish I did. I can guess. And I would guess that we are trying to move more toward more pleasure, and less pain, more joy, less sorrow, etc. So more technology, not less, is what we will move toward, unless we go nuts. (I am saying technology will lead us to more pleasure, less pain, more joy, less sorrow, etc.) But it is apparent we are going nuts, and it is worth trying to understand why we are going nuts. (Wars all over the planet, and with clearly nothing to be gained . . . who is behind this? And what is their motive. We need to understand this! We need to study this to understand this. Religion can be a liability and the Achilles heel for the religion societies. America is a religion society, as are all of the world's populations founded in religions. Religion can leave the door open for the society to be exploited. In the name of religion the society might be led to self destruct. Authorities are what the group looks up to, for "leadership." ) Oh, I could go on, but since no one is listening. . . if you want me to go on I will, just email me at SaveOurCalifornia@gmail.com. Let me know you want me to analyze this phenomenon in more detail. I will probably be doing this anyway, and if I come up with a complete "theory" here, I will give that to you. So far, I don't see that anyone has put together all the pieces of the puzzle. Would be good to know what the answer to the puzzle is. Since no one has answered that puzzle (or riddle), then we have to figure it out on our own. But we have some interesting theories to think about here, Jayne's theory being a good one to understand, but not answering all the questions we need answered.
Did you read the part about the consistent failure of early civilizations to grow beyond a million members and how this changed after we become conscious? Now that we approach eight thousand million perhaps we need a new change of mind equally significant. I've seen a lot of change in mind since the arrival of networks and the cell phone. I wonder if these adjustments portend a transformation.
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL It makes me wonder if a "conscious" person is a "more logical and scientific person." I don't know that populations growing had anything to do with "the masses" overpopulating, but had more to do with a few "conscious" people developing more and better means of harnessing nature to allow for more food and other resources available to be exploited and so populations grew, and grew. The masses STILL are not "conscious," not fully anyway, and still are part of some sort of primitive hive mind mentality. It takes a lot of work to "be conscious" as I describe what (might) be "consciousness" (i.e. just the mind that is logical and scientific). Mankind has always looked to authority figures to "lead" them, and saving them the need to think logically and scientifically, which might be a liability in a society where you will get killed (or at least banished) if you were too "logical and scientific" and not brainwashed to be "unconscious" and, thus, superstitious, and a good little zombie that does what the "authorities" tell a zombie to do. We are seeing , maybe, the government doing this to us now, to control us. We are being controlled in the U.S.A. via the mainstream (corporate) media, and particular ruses that we, the weak minded public, must go along with, or be castigated. The "Covid 19" situation for example. A seasonal flu being lied into a major global threat, and not just the elderly and sickly being isolated, but the entire population, and a propaganda campaign to shame all those that do not agree that they (the healthy that can sneeze and be done with Covid 19, should they catch it) are fully responsible for all the elderly and sickly, and so all ALL must stop everything they are doing, and the nation must shut down, or we will all die -- completely false, but people are all to willing to believe this, because they are not logical nor scientific. The human mind is very capable of being brainwashed. It was a long upward battle to get the society to get behind science and education, and, even though that made for quick advancement in science and technology, in the last half decade (or a little longer) we have seen the greater mass of society become highly emotional and illogical. A premium is being placed on emotionality and not-science (if you will). We are now being told ignorant celebrities and sports figures are our leaders in our society. The celebrities and sports figures are, of course, are amongst the most messed-up people, and quite un-scientific people imaginable. But the mainstream media props up the celebrities and sports figures, and other kooks, and so we are force fed the nonsense spewed by such celebrities, sports figures, and kooks. The non-scientific, and the emotional, they have been placed in charge -- not by the society, per se, but by the people behind the scenes with the clout and resources to put these fools up front and center and force us to pay attention to them. For example, they have people taking their young children to public libraries to have drag queens if full make-up read to and condition their children as to what is "normal" for society. The parents place on a pedestal a perverted and degenerate figure of a human being as the kind of person that should be listened to, accepted as "normal." Well, if that is "normal" what would the young impressionable mind think of the average working class person that does not dress like a transvestite and is a heterosexual? Here I get into the realm of the "brainwash," and, indeed, the human animal can be brainwashed. Even a dog can be conditioned, that is, brainwashed. Higher predators can be conditioned very well it seems, and humans can be entirely conditioned, it seems. As such, the people with the money and clout in the world, knowing what I know, and desirous of running the world themselves, they have, apparently, bought enough of the American government to now be able to rig elections every time, and control the entire nation. We are seeing that now. Mankind has always been mentally lazy, and because that is just the way it is. It takes mental labor to "think" clearly, and there is often no pay-off, or not much of a pay-off. There is a whole world of "pleasure" and "riches" for those that know how to work the "system." And there is a "system," and some, maybe many, know how that system works, meaning they know what makes-up the "system." They know who the "authorities" are, and they know the propensity of others in the society to follow to the letter the rules of the authorities, and to actually even "believe" what the established "authorities" tell them to believe. The billionaires (oligarchs) behind the scenes that want to take over, they are aware of all this, and they have hired many in the mainstream media to convey their disinformation and create an atmosphere of ignorance and insanity -- as ignorance and insanity set the stage for a take-over of the government and the nation, which is the goal of the oligarchs. And I might say that the oligarchs can take over and win because too many so-called "intelligent" human beings are not "intelligent" at all, but very highly suggestible and brainwashed. The owners of the big social media sites, they are the oligarchs. The people we see as the "CEOs" of these social media sites, they are front-men to speak on the behalf of the oligarchs. The same is true of our political leaders, just front men for the oligarchs. And we might even realize that very many of our political leaders are degenerates, which even have a sordid past that the oligarchs can use to blackmail them with, in order to ensure their fidelity in matters of politics. Same can be said of celebrities I would say. Maybe even true of too many sports stars. The mainstream media is loaded with fake news, of course. And all the networks publish and announce the same fake news. Anyway, the thing is that the billionaire's club behind the scenes, they are running everything. They are telling the CEOs of social media sites and TV network CEOs how to run things. They even tell the elected officials what to teach in schools. It is all a mind game. (L. Ron Hubbard of "Scientology" fame knew this, and mad a fortune working the system and minds of the less intelligent and/or troubled individuals in the society.) So a "bicameral mind?" Only to the extent of the level of the intelligence of the individual. There might be a situation where an otherwise intelligent person "hears voices," such as the schizophrenic. But there are two worlds, and one is the real scientific and logical world, and the other is the make-believe internal world of "authority figures" and "leaders" which has always been with the human race. Some people -- the less intelligent -- are more subject to the influence and control of "authority figures" and "leader" figures in the society. Young people, who don't know much (because they are young) are so susceptible to being influenced, that is, "brainwashed." (Again, think of the "woke" heterosexual parents taking their young and impressionable children to see the "transsexual" guru that will teach them about how "normal" it is for men to dress like hypersexualized women.) I add that we have seen "virtue signaling" throughout history. We see how the "patrons" of the Church (i.e. the wealthy congregants) would buy art for a Church so that God in heaven would look kindly upon them. Indeed, the "people" want to believe in a particular way, and that way is the way they are told is "normal" to believe. So that is the "bicameral" mind -- nothing more than a normal mind. A less "conscious" individual is the less "scientific" and "logical" individual. It doesn't take a lot of thinking to be "unconscious" and "automatic." Indeed, for many, that comes a lot easier, and so that is the way the approach the world. (The highly religious as an example, and, nowadays, we see not just those that are highly religious in a Christian or Jewish manner of belief being set on "automatic," but we are seeing kids brainwashed into Satanism in the society -- where it is easier for some to be on "automatic" thinking along the lines of a "Satanist.") I choose not to be on "automatic," but to be analytical and logical, that is, scientific. I do not hear voices. I have seen many people "hearing voices," and the common denominator is they are not of a scientific train of thought. Now, maybe they are just subject to schizophrenia, and hear voices for that reason, or maybe this lack of scientific thought just led them to work their "bicameral mind" to the point where that flicked a switch and they now are more or less addicted to that state of mind, and that is now "normal" to them. I could go on, but I think this post is too long and CZcams will not let me go on any longer. I did not proofread this, sorry about any typos or bad syntax.
I will add one more thing; a note of interest. I am a college student, a continuing student, since 2006 when I graduated, but I must continue in school, because I have not been able to find a job paying more than minimum wages, and I cannot pay off my $20K+ in student loan debt, and I ran out of "deferments." So I am in school, and one of the classes I am taking is entitled "History of Mexico." Well, it is NOT a course on the history of Mexico, but, instead, is a "woke" social studies course on how bad Europeans were to the Aztecs, and how the more "white" Hispanic people are false Mexicans, and the "real" Mexicans are the browner decedents of the Aztec/Mexica people. I am not Hispanic I should add, but I cannot see that skin color should have anything to do with who should be running the Mexican government. We are also presented with "articles" by "woke" archeologists that argue that never at any time did the Aztec or Maya people practice ritual sacrifice to a "'sun god," nor ever even kill another in a battle between tribes, but only seek to capture, alive, their opponents, and that Cortez and the Spanish lied about the human sacrifice. I did a little research of my own to show in an article in Science magazine that the "wall of skulls and towers of skulls" reported by Cortez (skulls of victims of ritual sacrifice) were quite a real thing. (Pictures of what has been unearthed now between 2015 and 2015 by Mexican archeologists are shown in the article.) I was castigated by my instructor for bringing in and citing material from "outside of the selections of materials she provided as reference materials for the class. I will receive an "F" grade if I do that again! But my point is the Aztec cities did not reach a million in population, as you point out. We are told in my "history" course that the Aztecs were VERY scientific people... but I fail to see much in the way of "science" that they had going for them. They were FULLY superstitious, and into drugs to enhance their own stupor state, where they heard voices, and were generally living in a semi-conscious dream state. A VERY HIGHLY manipulated mass of people. I can see why the Spanish viewed the Aztec culture as a thing devised by Satan. I cannot say this in my class, but I cannot help but see that the Aztecs were brutal and primitive, and all but completely un-scientific. Indeed, they had not even figured out the "wheel," nor how to melt or work any metal other than gold. I dare say the Aztec people were lucky the day that Cortez arrived, as he freed them from their "brainwash," and showed them there was a whole new way of thinking, and that everything they thought was just "wrong." The bicameral mind is part of the human machine, and it is something to be well aware of. But the Aztec people, primitive as they were, they could not have this explained to them. They had to go through getting conquered. We, Americans, are now getting "conquered," and without a shot being fired. This is happening because of our total population, too few are willing or able to call a "fake pandemic" a "fake pandemic." The system is set up to work the propaganda on us, and there are enough people willing to go along with the fake narrative that we must all pretend to want to comply with the directives of the "authorities." (And if we don't, even legal action will be taken against us. I would like to move to a state like Florida or Texas, which are open now. I am in California, which is a communist enclave, and, as such, a bastion of non-thinking communists -- the Aztecs were, in fact, communists.)
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL The point is that minds are involved in either conscious thought, or making things up to fit a "divine" or "woke" narrative set down by authority figures of one sort or another. Authority figures can designate other authority figures as other authority figures. And it seems that the big impressive structures of the society have the most brainwashing clout with humans, at least those that cannot or will not exert the effort to think logically and scientifically. If anything I said in any of my posts "offended" you, that would be an indication that you (or anyone reading this) would be somewhat brainwashed. If it outraged you, well, then more than just somewhat brainwashed. A logical scientific person would be more like Mr. Spock on Star Trek, I would imagine, as the full field of discussion is open to discussion. Here I am speaking of getting brainwashed, even voluntarily because that is the "right" thing to do, so say the "authorities" of the society. And whatever comes from the mainstream media or college professors who are teaching in those big institutions, THAT is what we INSTINCTIVELY agree with. That is the "instinct" that IS the "bicameral mind" (if I am using the phrase correctly), that is, the type of mind that operates on automatic, on commands from within (schizophrenia), and we might get into such a habit as to think that way all the time, and even because we will be "rewarded" (literally) for thinking that way, which the authorities tell us to think. Brainwashing is one aspect of the vulnerability of the bicameral mind. Pomp and circumstance and spectacle is what also sucks us in to that mode of bicameral thinking, as I see it. Logic and reason, scientific thinking, science in general, that is the stuff of which consciousness is made of. There is no room for "hallucinations" in the scientific and rational mind -- save some physiological brain disorder causing schizophrenia. People that are weak of mind -- illogical and unscientific -- will tend to want to "please the gods. They will instinctively feel that by pleasing the gods they will be taken care of by the gods. But the gods are the authority figures of the society, which are entities bigger than the individual who has surrendered consciousness to the authority figures. What I am talking about is what the video is talking about. But I am also talking about the notion of what people in the society are thinking, now, today, in today's world. Society, and how it can be understood, and from where we are at presently. How we can understand human behavior. Why people do what they do. But you definitely don't have to be logical or scientific to succeed in the world, but you can be. They say a lot of super rich televangelists are closet atheists, who are logically and scientifically (and amorally) working and manipulating their fellow humans of a less scientific and logical mind-set. And I am also saying that Jaynes's book was not that great, not an easy read, and I read it like 30 years ago or so, and got not much out of it, as I barely remember anything out of it. Just a theory, and then it just sort of goes in circles, and not much useful applicable information as I saw it. I don't know what Jaynes was ultimately driving at, other than to say "early man" was listening to his own hallucinated voices, and then that stopped so that society could grow more efficiently, but a few people still have that tendency to hallucinate, their bicameral mind being more pronounced. That society grew more efficient was probably an accident of nature, essentially. And that once society grew and became more efficient more scientific and logical thinking was required -- at least on the part of some, the leaders. (A "chicken or the egg?" type thing.) Scary to think that our fellow humans, many, most, are either brainwashed zombies or are working the system. (This partly makes sense in that there is more room for Indians than for Chiefs. The smartest people in the world are college professors, not the people that run the universities and yet get paid like 2 or 3 times as much, or more.) I am convinced that success in society is not entirely based on work ethic or knowledge base, but on knowing how to work the system. There is a way to be more popular, and popularity makes you more economically successful, I do hypothesize. I think they call this the "EQ" of a person. Anyway, again, I am making the point that this is the way the brain works, and different people possess different levels of consciousness, as well as different levels of knowledge about the way that the "authorities" will perceive them. I believe (and I could be wrong about this) that even less conscious people may be more attune to the nuances of what the "authorities" want from them, though "more conscious" people can also be so aware of what is wanted by the "authorities." Staying in the good graces of the authorities is one way to rise to the top in this world. There are certain "virtues" that must be signaled to rise to the top, I do hypothesize. I don't know what those are exactly. I had a couple of books on that subject, and, unfortunately, I never finished reading them to be able to comment on them here for you to help tie together these thoughts. And REDPUMPERNICKLE, if this bores you, don't bother to read it.
Well, I hope the actual theory is more persuasive than what is presented here. The "emergence of religion" part is particularly unconvincing. Materialist explanations of consciousness are quickly falling from grace, recently. See Bernardo Kastrup's "Monistic Idealism" for a more parsimonious explanation of consciousness.
Actually, people need something to fear (cops) so they don't just loot. Like they used to during the middle ages. That's why serfs worked for their protection that's why warriors were such a high class. In most cultures So in that sense government is good. It helps (it's not perfect). As for wars, well violence is a product of humanity, not governance. I'll agree that government encourages warfare. But in democracy it's the peoples job to elect good representatives. The enlightenment? Anyone?
JUST KEEP IN "MIND"...THESE ARE THEORIES, AND NOT FACT, IVE STUDIED JAYNES. ..AND HE, LIKE JUNG, MILTON, FREUD, ..ET,AL ...ALL HAVE THEIR THEORIES...ONE MY MOST REWARDING AUTHOR'S IS NEVILLE GODDARD, A LOWLY, ..DANCER, WHO TOOK THE TEACHINGS OF A RABBI, ABDULLA AND WROTE SEVERAL BOOK'S ON HOW TO USE YOUR IMAGINARY CONSCIOUSNESS...WHEN I STARTED MANIFESTING THESE TRUTHS INTO REALITY THE, MATERIAL WORLD,..ALL THIS OTHER SHET, WENT OUT THE BACK DOOR,..LEARN TO USE THAT SUPER COMPUTER BETWEEN YOUR EARS...A FOCUS DESIRE, QUITES ALL HINDRANCES....IE, VOICES...🛐🎁
Whether you agree with Professor Jaynes or don't this is one of the most fascinating books ever written. Don't be intimidated by the title. Disagree with him, he'd have pulled up his sleeves and dug in!
Read it during the late 70's, I was stunned, loved it and changed the way I thought ...a must read for every adult over the age of 16
I skimmed this book in high school. My parents library had all these cool books but only 2 have stuck with me 15 years later - Julian Jaynes, and P.D. Ouspensky A new model of the universe. Ouspensky particularly I flipped through many times. I thought of Jaynes the other day at the beginning of this new Jay Z video where this guy talks about a sort of near death experience where he hears a voice telling him something like "I'm not ready to take you yet, you have more to do". I only had a little contact with Jaynes' work but it had a very outsized effect on the way I see the mind today I think. I'm glad WestWorld is promoting his concept!
The theory is too complex to cover in a brief interview, the idea is just to call people's attention to it. If you're interested I would encourage you to read the the books on Jaynes's theory: "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind," "The Julian Jaynes Collection," and "Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness." These books both explain the theory as well as provide answers to many of the most common questions.
Jaynes theory fits perfectly well with Exodus and the voices!
Galen Flynn maybe but the exodus didn't fit with archeology.
C Brieeze oh my, you need to study some of the mesopotamian tablets that have been dug up in Ur and other mesopotamian cities. One such tablet found out to be from near the dawn of consciousness interpreted to read:
A man who walks about without his god is like a man who walks about with a headache.
Besides, how can you say the exodus didn't happen when the whole democratic party are wandering the desert right now?
the thing is, even if you dont agree his theories are true, his ideas are fascinating and enlightening. one of the most thought provoking things ive ever read.
It could be the small still voice which has your best interests vs the loud egoic thinking which botched up your life, but gives the illusion of free will.
The concept is that consciousness as we experience it today is a current development, and that in the recent past, new faculties and capabilities have evolved.
My interpretation is that before mass communication, the world was naturally perceived to be very unknown, "fuzzy", like what is described in various levels of out of body, or psychedelic, or schizophrenic, or other 'psychic' experiences & phenomenon.
Jaynes "Bicameral Mind" and McKenna's Entheogenic symbiosis are the frame work for for an improved pardigm.
Language was not the impetus, per se; rather, it was the use of language to form metaphors. And these metaphors essentially allowed the formation of a "mind space" for the analogue eye. e.g. i "see" what you are talking about. "shine a light" on the situation.
I thought it's the analogue 'I' ie the ego/self. Nothing to do with 'eye.'
When one has a maladaptive state of constant readiness one can talk to the right side subconscious while fully awake. The logic brain when tasked with a long term goal works on it like a job and reports back as a separate entity
Did u read the book? His theory is pretty well thought out.
Not so much language because most first language did not contain introspection. The addition of many new metaphors and analogies sparked consciousness or at least this is my opinion
Galen Flynn It's our alphabet and the introduction of the phoneme that caused the change in perspective. Pictorial languages and their derivatives are more limited to discussions of reality
In the fewest words, the theory outlines the arrival of the concept of the self.
I read this book many many years ago and still have it in my collection. It is and impressive theory that feels very plausible as a framework.
what about "visual" hallucinations? could these auditory hallucinations have been accompanied by visions?
There's a confusion in some people. One thing is Consciousness (a self-experience, in 1st person, a subjective feeling of 'I am') and another is the conscious (related to the Freudian and jungian concepts about subconscious and unconscious).
I wonder if Terence McKenna ever read up on this / had an opinion on this theory.
Westworld?
Yesss
The jab was given on the non-dominant side, supposedly to minimize problems in case of side effects.
Check out Tony Wrights Return to the Brain of Eden...cheers4 sharing..Feed Your Head! X
There are also theories that consciousness preceds matter. Interesting book.
Another perspective among many others. Perhaps they all have a grain of truth.
Jaynes brings it down to earth though
Did Jaynes himself ever/write about experiencing the phenomenal first hand, just a question before I get into reading it?
put the knower in the known. his words and yes this was his experience
So wheres Free Will in this Bicameral equation? Did it begin ~3k years ago too?
There's no such thing as free will
"There's no such thing as free will".
One might argue that it's not a 'thing' but that doesn't help.
The concept is not just unfounded, it's incoherent.
Incoherent!
Will is what moves your muscles, when you're hungry, to make a sandwich.
What does 'free' add to it?
Nothing.
You can either make a sandwich or you can't.
It's late, I'm tired, others have argued better.
Government, when it does what it does well (protecting people and their property) is not mystical... however, when it goes beyond that it becomes a mystical authority.
There is no sustainable beef production, at least not at the scale to handle current beef consumption.
*****
So what? I like to dump used motor oil in my local lake, but that doesn't mean that dumping used motor oil in bodies of water is sustainable.
Beyond Meat
In the beginning was, the sharpest stick. Hey that was great. Im interested in the managed evolution of todays cows, can you make a pod about that subject pls? Particularly as the bull was worshipped in the desert.
The brain is an incredible thing
Sure it is.
Yes, consciousness is defined in more than one way. BUT in contemporary research there is one thing in common all reseachers. By consciousness is meant subjectivity. Subjectivity means any, whatsoever, subjective experience. It does not need verbal thought. Consciousness is not introspection.
Yes, I do believe that verbal thoughts might´ve been first believed to be "the voice of God". But who would hear the voice in the head without consciousness? Consciousness per se shouldn´t be confused with the bicameral theory as such.
Ps. Of course, anyone can define any word the way they want, but I wouldn´t want to define some term in, say, physics in a way that no physicist uses:)
Oh yeah, Dennet is mentioned. Almost everyone in the study of consciousness disagrees with Dennet about consciousness. The bicameral brain and evolution of verbal thought is one thing. Consciousness is another thing. There wouldn´t be anyone in whose mind the language starts happening without consciousness. So, no consciousness cannot be thaught via language.
@@nimim.markomikkila1673 Do you remember what it was like floating in your mother's womb?
Are you familiar with Piaget's work on critical stages during childhood development?
Do you remember the first time you said 'Mama'?
How it was before and after?
Even a nematode can be conditioned.
What are the odds that an elderly mind has an excellent, crisp, accurate remembrance of how consciousness manifested in the time before learning language?
"Almost everyone in the study of the heavens disagrees with Galileo about consciousness".
Who you trying to kid?
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL Yes, I have once had a memory of my wombtimes. Yes, I am familiar. No, I don´t remember my first "mama".
I’m new to all this…set me straight here…is science truly trying to prove that a piece of meat thinking and talking to people inside their heads (or being “rational”) isn’t something of a miracle…granted it is organic meat but… talking meat.
does buddhism not qualify as a religion?
A different way of looking at consciousness ~how old is really? Where do all the voices that people claim to hear apparently from nowhere come from? More questions than answers here, so far. @Peta_de_Aztlan
The religion idea is the integrative idea operating through symbol, image and narrative identity. Whereas the symbol or model of a unity is an imaged state to which life is then fitted - and therefore the idea of religion as lord over or dominion/domination and rules, the recognition of self-image as image is the opening to appreciation of the whole (unconflicted or unconditional acceptance) flowing through the structure of consciousness that previously blocked by substitution.
So I use religion in a more etymological sense of unifying relation.
The gods of antiquity are associated directly with the planets as then were experienced collectively around the world. Velikovsky opened the door and it was slammed shut in his face. The manner in which insight and information is censored is itself the sign of hitting a mark. The opening of the mind from what it thinks it is to that which moves through it and reflects to it is like unto a multifaceted crystal.
What if we heard the right hemisphere, but environment influenced the heard spirit. I mean, many got "divine" messages of child- and human sacrifice. While there was that one that lead to Yeshu Christ and later on universal human rights a.k.a. the free world.
Listen to A Birdsong Everything Everything 👂👍
Here's my 2 cents: Whatever quirk makes people to group and form into warring tribes, and allows them to think enough to develop better killing machines, that is the group that will prevail in nature. Guilt and empathy are a liability for the species. Warring tribes that have good effective war technology/machines, they will survive, even conquer, and procreate. Defeated groups will not survive or procreate, or at least not as well as the warring tribes with the better war technology/machines. Maybe religion is a binding cohesive force for the society, and allows group action, which is more effective than individual action, where it comes to war and group survival. And man needs to survive as a group, as individuals are more at the mercy of nature.
But there might be something else driving the species onto a "next stage" of evolution. What we are moving to, I don't know, wish I did. I can guess. And I would guess that we are trying to move more toward more pleasure, and less pain, more joy, less sorrow, etc. So more technology, not less, is what we will move toward, unless we go nuts. (I am saying technology will lead us to more pleasure, less pain, more joy, less sorrow, etc.) But it is apparent we are going nuts, and it is worth trying to understand why we are going nuts. (Wars all over the planet, and with clearly nothing to be gained . . . who is behind this? And what is their motive. We need to understand this! We need to study this to understand this. Religion can be a liability and the Achilles heel for the religion societies. America is a religion society, as are all of the world's populations founded in religions. Religion can leave the door open for the society to be exploited. In the name of religion the society might be led to self destruct. Authorities are what the group looks up to, for "leadership." )
Oh, I could go on, but since no one is listening. . . if you want me to go on I will, just email me at SaveOurCalifornia@gmail.com. Let me know you want me to analyze this phenomenon in more detail. I will probably be doing this anyway, and if I come up with a complete "theory" here, I will give that to you. So far, I don't see that anyone has put together all the pieces of the puzzle. Would be good to know what the answer to the puzzle is. Since no one has answered that puzzle (or riddle), then we have to figure it out on our own. But we have some interesting theories to think about here, Jayne's theory being a good one to understand, but not answering all the questions we need answered.
Did you read the part about the consistent failure of early civilizations to grow beyond a million members and how this changed after we become conscious?
Now that we approach eight thousand million perhaps we need a new change of mind equally significant.
I've seen a lot of change in mind since the arrival of networks and the cell phone.
I wonder if these adjustments portend a transformation.
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL
It makes me wonder if a "conscious" person is a "more logical and scientific person." I don't know that populations growing had anything to do with "the masses" overpopulating, but had more to do with a few "conscious" people developing more and better means of harnessing nature to allow for more food and other resources available to be exploited and so populations grew, and grew. The masses STILL are not "conscious," not fully anyway, and still are part of some sort of primitive hive mind mentality. It takes a lot of work to "be conscious" as I describe what (might) be "consciousness" (i.e. just the mind that is logical and scientific).
Mankind has always looked to authority figures to "lead" them, and saving them the need to think logically and scientifically, which might be a liability in a society where you will get killed (or at least banished) if you were too "logical and scientific" and not brainwashed to be "unconscious" and, thus, superstitious, and a good little zombie that does what the "authorities" tell a zombie to do. We are seeing , maybe, the government doing this to us now, to control us. We are being controlled in the U.S.A. via the mainstream (corporate) media, and particular ruses that we, the weak minded public, must go along with, or be castigated. The "Covid 19" situation for example. A seasonal flu being lied into a major global threat, and not just the elderly and sickly being isolated, but the entire population, and a propaganda campaign to shame all those that do not agree that they (the healthy that can sneeze and be done with Covid 19, should they catch it) are fully responsible for all the elderly and sickly, and so all ALL must stop everything they are doing, and the nation must shut down, or we will all die -- completely false, but people are all to willing to believe this, because they are not logical nor scientific.
The human mind is very capable of being brainwashed. It was a long upward battle to get the society to get behind science and education, and, even though that made for quick advancement in science and technology, in the last half decade (or a little longer) we have seen the greater mass of society become highly emotional and illogical. A premium is being placed on emotionality and not-science (if you will). We are now being told ignorant celebrities and sports figures are our leaders in our society. The celebrities and sports figures are, of course, are amongst the most messed-up people, and quite un-scientific people imaginable. But the mainstream media props up the celebrities and sports figures, and other kooks, and so we are force fed the nonsense spewed by such celebrities, sports figures, and kooks. The non-scientific, and the emotional, they have been placed in charge -- not by the society, per se, but by the people behind the scenes with the clout and resources to put these fools up front and center and force us to pay attention to them. For example, they have people taking their young children to public libraries to have drag queens if full make-up read to and condition their children as to what is "normal" for society. The parents place on a pedestal a perverted and degenerate figure of a human being as the kind of person that should be listened to, accepted as "normal." Well, if that is "normal" what would the young impressionable mind think of the average working class person that does not dress like a transvestite and is a heterosexual?
Here I get into the realm of the "brainwash," and, indeed, the human animal can be brainwashed. Even a dog can be conditioned, that is, brainwashed. Higher predators can be conditioned very well it seems, and humans can be entirely conditioned, it seems. As such, the people with the money and clout in the world, knowing what I know, and desirous of running the world themselves, they have, apparently, bought enough of the American government to now be able to rig elections every time, and control the entire nation. We are seeing that now.
Mankind has always been mentally lazy, and because that is just the way it is. It takes mental labor to "think" clearly, and there is often no pay-off, or not much of a pay-off. There is a whole world of "pleasure" and "riches" for those that know how to work the "system." And there is a "system," and some, maybe many, know how that system works, meaning they know what makes-up the "system." They know who the "authorities" are, and they know the propensity of others in the society to follow to the letter the rules of the authorities, and to actually even "believe" what the established "authorities" tell them to believe. The billionaires (oligarchs) behind the scenes that want to take over, they are aware of all this, and they have hired many in the mainstream media to convey their disinformation and create an atmosphere of ignorance and insanity -- as ignorance and insanity set the stage for a take-over of the government and the nation, which is the goal of the oligarchs. And I might say that the oligarchs can take over and win because too many so-called "intelligent" human beings are not "intelligent" at all, but very highly suggestible and brainwashed.
The owners of the big social media sites, they are the oligarchs. The people we see as the "CEOs" of these social media sites, they are front-men to speak on the behalf of the oligarchs. The same is true of our political leaders, just front men for the oligarchs. And we might even realize that very many of our political leaders are degenerates, which even have a sordid past that the oligarchs can use to blackmail them with, in order to ensure their fidelity in matters of politics. Same can be said of celebrities I would say. Maybe even true of too many sports stars. The mainstream media is loaded with fake news, of course. And all the networks publish and announce the same fake news.
Anyway, the thing is that the billionaire's club behind the scenes, they are running everything. They are telling the CEOs of social media sites and TV network CEOs how to run things. They even tell the elected officials what to teach in schools.
It is all a mind game. (L. Ron Hubbard of "Scientology" fame knew this, and mad a fortune working the system and minds of the less intelligent and/or troubled individuals in the society.)
So a "bicameral mind?" Only to the extent of the level of the intelligence of the individual. There might be a situation where an otherwise intelligent person "hears voices," such as the schizophrenic. But there are two worlds, and one is the real scientific and logical world, and the other is the make-believe internal world of "authority figures" and "leaders" which has always been with the human race. Some people -- the less intelligent -- are more subject to the influence and control of "authority figures" and "leader" figures in the society. Young people, who don't know much (because they are young) are so susceptible to being influenced, that is, "brainwashed." (Again, think of the "woke" heterosexual parents taking their young and impressionable children to see the "transsexual" guru that will teach them about how "normal" it is for men to dress like hypersexualized women.)
I add that we have seen "virtue signaling" throughout history. We see how the "patrons" of the Church (i.e. the wealthy congregants) would buy art for a Church so that God in heaven would look kindly upon them. Indeed, the "people" want to believe in a particular way, and that way is the way they are told is "normal" to believe.
So that is the "bicameral" mind -- nothing more than a normal mind. A less "conscious" individual is the less "scientific" and "logical" individual. It doesn't take a lot of thinking to be "unconscious" and "automatic." Indeed, for many, that comes a lot easier, and so that is the way the approach the world. (The highly religious as an example, and, nowadays, we see not just those that are highly religious in a Christian or Jewish manner of belief being set on "automatic," but we are seeing kids brainwashed into Satanism in the society -- where it is easier for some to be on "automatic" thinking along the lines of a "Satanist.") I choose not to be on "automatic," but to be analytical and logical, that is, scientific. I do not hear voices. I have seen many people "hearing voices," and the common denominator is they are not of a scientific train of thought. Now, maybe they are just subject to schizophrenia, and hear voices for that reason, or maybe this lack of scientific thought just led them to work their "bicameral mind" to the point where that flicked a switch and they now are more or less addicted to that state of mind, and that is now "normal" to them.
I could go on, but I think this post is too long and CZcams will not let me go on any longer.
I did not proofread this, sorry about any typos or bad syntax.
I will add one more thing; a note of interest.
I am a college student, a continuing student, since 2006 when I graduated, but I must continue in school, because I have not been able to find a job paying more than minimum wages, and I cannot pay off my $20K+ in student loan debt, and I ran out of "deferments."
So I am in school, and one of the classes I am taking is entitled "History of Mexico." Well, it is NOT a course on the history of Mexico, but, instead, is a "woke" social studies course on how bad Europeans were to the Aztecs, and how the more "white" Hispanic people are false Mexicans, and the "real" Mexicans are the browner decedents of the Aztec/Mexica people. I am not Hispanic I should add, but I cannot see that skin color should have anything to do with who should be running the Mexican government. We are also presented with "articles" by "woke" archeologists that argue that never at any time did the Aztec or Maya people practice ritual sacrifice to a "'sun god," nor ever even kill another in a battle between tribes, but only seek to capture, alive, their opponents, and that Cortez and the Spanish lied about the human sacrifice. I did a little research of my own to show in an article in Science magazine that the "wall of skulls and towers of skulls" reported by Cortez (skulls of victims of ritual sacrifice) were quite a real thing. (Pictures of what has been unearthed now between 2015 and 2015 by Mexican archeologists are shown in the article.) I was castigated by my instructor for bringing in and citing material from "outside of the selections of materials she provided as reference materials for the class. I will receive an "F" grade if I do that again!
But my point is the Aztec cities did not reach a million in population, as you point out. We are told in my "history" course that the Aztecs were VERY scientific people... but I fail to see much in the way of "science" that they had going for them. They were FULLY superstitious, and into drugs to enhance their own stupor state, where they heard voices, and were generally living in a semi-conscious dream state. A VERY HIGHLY manipulated mass of people. I can see why the Spanish viewed the Aztec culture as a thing devised by Satan. I cannot say this in my class, but I cannot help but see that the Aztecs were brutal and primitive, and all but completely un-scientific. Indeed, they had not even figured out the "wheel," nor how to melt or work any metal other than gold.
I dare say the Aztec people were lucky the day that Cortez arrived, as he freed them from their "brainwash," and showed them there was a whole new way of thinking, and that everything they thought was just "wrong."
The bicameral mind is part of the human machine, and it is something to be well aware of. But the Aztec people, primitive as they were, they could not have this explained to them. They had to go through getting conquered. We, Americans, are now getting "conquered," and without a shot being fired. This is happening because of our total population, too few are willing or able to call a "fake pandemic" a "fake pandemic." The system is set up to work the propaganda on us, and there are enough people willing to go along with the fake narrative that we must all pretend to want to comply with the directives of the "authorities." (And if we don't, even legal action will be taken against us. I would like to move to a state like Florida or Texas, which are open now. I am in California, which is a communist enclave, and, as such, a bastion of non-thinking communists -- the Aztecs were, in fact, communists.)
@@billygraham5589 What's your point?
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL The point is that minds are involved in either conscious thought, or making things up to fit a "divine" or "woke" narrative set down by authority figures of one sort or another. Authority figures can designate other authority figures as other authority figures. And it seems that the big impressive structures of the society have the most brainwashing clout with humans, at least those that cannot or will not exert the effort to think logically and scientifically. If anything I said in any of my posts "offended" you, that would be an indication that you (or anyone reading this) would be somewhat brainwashed. If it outraged you, well, then more than just somewhat brainwashed. A logical scientific person would be more like Mr. Spock on Star Trek, I would imagine, as the full field of discussion is open to discussion. Here I am speaking of getting brainwashed, even voluntarily because that is the "right" thing to do, so say the "authorities" of the society. And whatever comes from the mainstream media or college professors who are teaching in those big institutions, THAT is what we INSTINCTIVELY agree with. That is the "instinct" that IS the "bicameral mind" (if I am using the phrase correctly), that is, the type of mind that operates on automatic, on commands from within (schizophrenia), and we might get into such a habit as to think that way all the time, and even because we will be "rewarded" (literally) for thinking that way, which the authorities tell us to think.
Brainwashing is one aspect of the vulnerability of the bicameral mind. Pomp and circumstance and spectacle is what also sucks us in to that mode of bicameral thinking, as I see it. Logic and reason, scientific thinking, science in general, that is the stuff of which consciousness is made of. There is no room for "hallucinations" in the scientific and rational mind -- save some physiological brain disorder causing schizophrenia.
People that are weak of mind -- illogical and unscientific -- will tend to want to "please the gods. They will instinctively feel that by pleasing the gods they will be taken care of by the gods. But the gods are the authority figures of the society, which are entities bigger than the individual who has surrendered consciousness to the authority figures.
What I am talking about is what the video is talking about. But I am also talking about the notion of what people in the society are thinking, now, today, in today's world.
Society, and how it can be understood, and from where we are at presently. How we can understand human behavior. Why people do what they do.
But you definitely don't have to be logical or scientific to succeed in the world, but you can be. They say a lot of super rich televangelists are closet atheists, who are logically and scientifically (and amorally) working and manipulating their fellow humans of a less scientific and logical mind-set.
And I am also saying that Jaynes's book was not that great, not an easy read, and I read it like 30 years ago or so, and got not much out of it, as I barely remember anything out of it. Just a theory, and then it just sort of goes in circles, and not much useful applicable information as I saw it. I don't know what Jaynes was ultimately driving at, other than to say "early man" was listening to his own hallucinated voices, and then that stopped so that society could grow more efficiently, but a few people still have that tendency to hallucinate, their bicameral mind being more pronounced. That society grew more efficient was probably an accident of nature, essentially. And that once society grew and became more efficient more scientific and logical thinking was required -- at least on the part of some, the leaders. (A "chicken or the egg?" type thing.) Scary to think that our fellow humans, many, most, are either brainwashed zombies or are working the system. (This partly makes sense in that there is more room for Indians than for Chiefs. The smartest people in the world are college professors, not the people that run the universities and yet get paid like 2 or 3 times as much, or more.)
I am convinced that success in society is not entirely based on work ethic or knowledge base, but on knowing how to work the system. There is a way to be more popular, and popularity makes you more economically successful, I do hypothesize. I think they call this the "EQ" of a person.
Anyway, again, I am making the point that this is the way the brain works, and different people possess different levels of consciousness, as well as different levels of knowledge about the way that the "authorities" will perceive them. I believe (and I could be wrong about this) that even less conscious people may be more attune to the nuances of what the "authorities" want from them, though "more conscious" people can also be so aware of what is wanted by the "authorities." Staying in the good graces of the authorities is one way to rise to the top in this world. There are certain "virtues" that must be signaled to rise to the top, I do hypothesize. I don't know what those are exactly. I had a couple of books on that subject, and, unfortunately, I never finished reading them to be able to comment on them here for you to help tie together these thoughts.
And REDPUMPERNICKLE, if this bores you, don't bother to read it.
Westworld sent me !
Me too!
you're talking about totalitarianism. Democracy works, but only if the people who are governed aren't dumb. And that's coming from a founding father.
Well, I hope the actual theory is more persuasive than what is presented here. The "emergence of religion" part is particularly unconvincing.
Materialist explanations of consciousness are quickly falling from grace, recently.
See Bernardo Kastrup's "Monistic Idealism" for a more parsimonious explanation of consciousness.
Can we take seriously anyone associate with Deepak Chopra, I ask myself..
Actually, people need something to fear (cops) so they don't just loot. Like they used to during the middle ages. That's why serfs worked for their protection that's why warriors were such a high class. In most cultures
So in that sense government is good. It helps (it's not perfect). As for wars, well violence is a product of humanity, not governance. I'll agree that government encourages warfare. But in democracy it's the peoples job to elect good representatives.
The enlightenment? Anyone?
JUST KEEP IN "MIND"...THESE ARE THEORIES, AND NOT FACT, IVE STUDIED JAYNES. ..AND HE, LIKE JUNG, MILTON, FREUD, ..ET,AL ...ALL HAVE THEIR THEORIES...ONE MY MOST REWARDING
AUTHOR'S IS NEVILLE GODDARD, A LOWLY, ..DANCER, WHO TOOK THE TEACHINGS OF A RABBI, ABDULLA AND WROTE SEVERAL BOOK'S ON HOW TO USE YOUR IMAGINARY CONSCIOUSNESS...WHEN I STARTED MANIFESTING THESE TRUTHS INTO REALITY THE, MATERIAL WORLD,..ALL THIS OTHER SHET, WENT OUT THE BACK DOOR,..LEARN TO USE THAT SUPER COMPUTER BETWEEN YOUR EARS...A FOCUS DESIRE, QUITES ALL HINDRANCES....IE, VOICES...🛐🎁
nom nom nom more
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