Fact Checking Erik Hoel’s Comments on Julian Jaynes's Theory in "The World Behind The World"

Fact Checking Erik Hoel’s Comments on Julian Jaynes's Theory in "The World Behind the World: Consciousness, Free Will, and the Limits of Science."
A brief discussion between Marcel Kuijsten and Brian J. McVeigh, fact checking Erik Hoel's recent comments on Julian Jaynes's theory in his book "The World Behind the World: Consciousness, Free Will, and the Limits of Science."
They discuss a number of different problems with Erik Hoel's understanding of Julian Jaynes's theory. They also explain the critique of Jaynes's theory raised by Hoel (and originally made by Ned Block) referred to as the "use/mention error," and how that critique was later addressed by Julian Jaynes, Daniel Dennett, and Jan Sleutels.
References from the video:
Brian J. McVeigh, "Fact Checking Erik Hoel’s “The World Behind the World: Consciousness, Free Will, and the Limits of Science,” August 6, 2023. (www.julianjaynes.org/blog/fac...)
Julian Jaynes, "Afterword," in Julian Jaynes, "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" (Mariner Books, 1976/1990). (www.amazon.com/Origin-Conscio...)
Jan Sleutels, "Greek Zombies: On the Alleged Absurdity of Substantially Unconscious Greek Minds," in Marcel Kuijsten (ed.) "Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness: Julian Jaynes’s Bicameral Mind Theory Revisited" (Julian Jaynes Society, 2006). (www.julianjaynes.org/book/ref...)
Daniel Dennett, "Julian Jaynes’ Software Archeology," Canadian Psychology, 1986, 27, 2, 149-154. (www.julianjaynes.org/resource...)
Marcel Kuijsten (ed.), "Conversations on Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind: Interviews with Leading Thinkers on Julian Jaynes’s Theory" (Julian Jaynes Society, 2022). (www.julianjaynes.org/book/con...)

[@Franchise-infoCa]

I read Jaynes in the late 70's. I was an undergraduate with an interest in philosophy and logic. I would invite anyone to re-read his introduction to what consciousness is not -- it still surprises me to this day.
The next chapter, on metaphor, is the hardest idea, in my view, to understand. I wrote Jaynes asked more about mind space being the metaphor for real space. He was kind enough to respond to an eager undergraduate, but I have lost his reply!
It is a delightful book.

[@VoidDenizen]

Thanks for again for fighting this often uphill battle and keeping the work alive and the research current 🙏🏻 and thanks to Hoel for his errors, as they have given a springboard for correction.
-michaelangelo

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

Thank you for your interest and support!

[@collegesandcannibals241]

Thanks for your work.

[@chellybub]

Sometimes I wonder if the people who comment on Jaynes have ever actually read anything he wrote. It certainly doesn't seem that they have. Hoel clearly never bothered to read even the introduction to the origin of consciousness. What was it? Maybe 10 pages...

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

Often it seems they haven't, and for many it takes more than one reading to fully absorb Jaynes's arguments.

[@ArthursAtman]

It baffles me how nearly every reference to Jaynes I've run across in various literatures can so badly misinterpret him. If a modern young child can't articulate the difference between a sensation, an intuition, his imaginings, and his propositional beliefs--and needs to be taught the language and use for such concepts--then certainly there was a period in human history before anyone was making such fine distinctions. My personal pet peeve is when Jaynes "seems racist" to people b/c the Spanish so easily defeated the natives. How bizarre that you can make a theory on how consciousness is NON-biological, but instead cultural, and still get accused of racism.

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

Indeed.

[@Randomuser2329]

Thanks for this video. Keep up the good work.

[@againstjebelallawz]

Thoughts on the idea bicameralism is a product of posture (shoulders up and forward/chin up/tailbone up and back; sleeping on chin/ribcage/knees rather than back) and consciousness being a product of calories?