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WT - Analyze This 10: Outnumbered (RB)
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2016
- A Bf109 is caught alone at high altitude by a Spitfire LF Mk IX and a P-38, forced to dive, and is eventually shot down. What could he have done to secure an altitude advantage? Are there any ways in which he could have turned the tables, or survived in order to reach the cover of his airfield?
I mentioned Messer Smitt's videos in my commentary, in particular this one - • War Thunder Fw 190A De...
Music: www.bensound.co...
I am undecieved and i am thankful for your advice and attention. i wish to see more analyse this series, more frequently.
I noticed you posting a lot of interesting questions on the forum, and thought to myself - here's someone who really wants to improve & is going about it the right way. I wish you all the best & hope this video is of benefit.
I'll keep adding to this series, but unfortunately my time is limited & spread over other playlists, also another youtube channel (with a 3rd to come), and of course my real-life work. I wish I had more hours in the day & dollars in the bank so I could be as productive with these videos as I'd like to be.
@Enda Basquez ☠🥴🗑
I think the spit did the right thing when he climbed a bit as the 109 pulled a hard break. If you're diving that fast and try to follow in a turn fight, you'll just rip your wings. He was at 700+ kph.
On the first occasion he was indeed right to pull up for the reasons you specified, but I think he stayed too long in that maneuver. At the 9:59 moment he could have started to turn back & close with the 109, but continued climbing & hence was unable to attack when it stalled.
The second time at 11:08 he was below 600km/h and should have been safe to start turning, I doubt that would have been fast enough to rip his wings.
around 8 minutes of straight flying up followed by around 5 minutes of kinda straight flying down. RB is such a good game mode :-))
Not every game is like this, but yes this particular battle really showed the worst of what RB can be like.
This is why I never, and will never play RB. A complete waste of time. Yes, your comment is old, but I want it to be known.
@@ChefofWar33 playing rb takes some patience and knowledge, if you want to do the bayblade and little more sure arcade is the best option
edit: almost every situation that at first glance looks like oh well cant do nothing now so i will just dive and fly straight in this infinite stalemate have a solution, or a way to negate the enemies advantage, know your plane and your foe and make correct decissions, its just a more skilled gameplay.
Should have just focused on building separation (including diving at a shallower angle) towards his airfield.The Lightning was still far away enough so that it would need some time to catch up and give 109 the time to run. The Spit LF9 retains its energy well but isn't really fast once it loses it, hence the proposed shallower angle. Also, don't try to outclimb the spit and the p-38 up to those altitudes. Try to force the start of the fight at 5km because the gap in performance at that point is the lowest, even if you start with a bit of an energy disadvantage. There was no real point in climbing: if they see you climbing, they're just gonna climb after you and do it better than you. Someone once said something wise in tank RB, but I think it applies well here: "If they see you flanking, you're not flanking anymore."
Oh and long5hot, as for the spit firing at 600m- you can hit a sabre flying 1km away with a speed of 850kph with the hispano cannons found on the meteor mk8. Those cannons are amazing in terms of RoF, range and damage they do :)
Yes there was a chance he could have hit, but on the other hand given the circumstances in this battle it was highly likely he was going to get a better shot if he was patient, as the 109 wasn't getting away. Obviously I don't know how much ammo the Spit had left at that stage or how much it used in those bursts.
Some good tips in there long5hot, nice vid :)
My advice if you are outnumbered and don't think you can dogfight, run for the nearest airfield, if you aren't too far into enemy area. Most players will usually break off when they realized that, especially since the AA buff. And if they do chase you to the airfield there is high chance of the enemy get shot down. But do take note that the enemy will circle outside of the airfield, waiting for you to come back.
Honestly this guy survival chances is low, the best he can probably do is survive longer, and maybe bring one or two down before being shot down.
That's just wrong, everybody loses on that scenario. Unless you put some damage on then before the AAA destroys them you will get no points for their kills.
Plus you need to give up all your energy to get low and near the airfield, you will have no chance of fighting back and in the best posible outcome the A.I is going to kill them all but you get nothing for those kills and if they swarm you you will die too.
The outcome it's usually "repair bills for everybody and no RP for the players".
+Etruscots by the time you have to do this, kills doesn't matter anymore, you just want to survive. If you do survive and landed, you can get more chance of getting more RP. Like I said, this relies on the enemy not going after you, and you actually survived. It should only be used as last resort.
Lai SY
Well sadly for me and a good portion of the RB community "surviving" it's not good enough. Usually it takes a lot of planes to kill the enemy flying in circles over the airfield and since he will burn all his energy doing that, chances of getting at least a head on are too low.
But be my guess, if you consider an option letting the A.I get all the kills so you have to potential to "survive" go ahead. But I would rather go down bringing down at least one enemy player, which becomes posible since it becomes a race to kill the last guy and people no longer care for playing safe.
Etruscots very true. "Its not like the objective will complete itself (except maybe Saipan), so might as well risk it", is what people , and very likely myself, if we are the enemy team.
So it's a little risky but the best strategy I can think of is that he should of attempted to gain the energy advantage at high altitude. That's pretty hard given that he started at a disadvantage but I do not think it would have been impossible. When your in that kind of an unfortunate situation, when you have to face a more maneuverable fighter with an energy advantage, the best strategy I have found is easiest described as halfpiping. Picture a skateboarder going up and down the sides of a half-pipe; he is functionally moving in a straight line but he is using the sides of the pipe to convert his speed into altitude, turn around, come down, and then repeat. To translate into fighter tactics; engage in a head-to-head with an eye to evasion, extend in a shallow(!) climb to gain separation. When you feel you have enough separation pull into a sharp climb; hammerhead/wing-over to turn around, accelerate back up to high speed, dodge the head to head, repeat. After some passes you should have equalized or gained an energy advantage.
Why does such a tactic work? Basically high speed, short winged fighter (like the 109) efficiently maintains their energy at high speed. The spit has a lower acceleration at high speed, mostly due to the bigger wing, so keeping the speed high robs it of it's advantage. If your lucky the spit will turn horizontally to follow, burning even more energy. Turns at low speed are slow but energy efficient, which is why the separation is important; you want enough space to complete your hammerhead and be back at high speed before the attacker catches up to you. It's not without risk; you need to paying attention during the head to head, but if you keep speed high and jink a little you should be able to get through it ok.
In this video I'm not sure even that would have worked. That kind of energy game is really hard to play against multiple opponents because one can always just stick to the sides and climb while the other makes you maneuver. Still, I think the strategy I've described would have at the least allowed him to put his strengths (climb rate, acceleration) against the Spitfires weakness (high drag at high speed).
Very well explained - thanks!
That is a very well explained strategy! Will try that, when I get to play again
Indeed, I wish I could give jchaplin's comment more than one upvote. I'll definitely be looking to try his method at some point.
For the 109, being faced with a spit at altitude like that, one option is to try to bait the spit in a head on. I know head ons can be sketchy, but considering the circumstances, would have given a better chance at winning that altitude advantage.
A channel worth subscribing. I wish i discovered you sonner.
thanks long5hot
to whom it may concern
*no-one should be proud to get kills with spitfires especially the Spitfire LF MK IX*
*LFMkIX* it's the most climb thunder meta fitting plane, combine high speed, climb rate, rail cannons, highest agility. it's sooo cheap and easier plane to fly that even most untalented player can turn into an ACE.
so remember if u get any kill with it, it is no your skill
YES
along with griffon spits. i dont know why people think winning a dogfight against a 109 is hard in a spitfire, if you manage to fucking lose, you're the worst pilot ever.
I've met many "worst pilot ever"s in my Fockewulf 190's then ;D
Then again, the Fw's are also pretty easy planes to fly when you know basic physics and the basics of energy fighting...
*happy tears*
Thank you for this detailed analyse with a very clear, understandable accent which is essential to non-natives.
As a primarily RB player; I really like this series it is very interesting to see player decisions get analyzed. I often times watch my own replays to see what I could have done better but mostly see how bad my aim was as it really sucks when you cannot capitalize on a guns on opportunity. Hope to see more in the future.
Don't worry too much about what your aim looks like in replays - they're a little out of sync with how the battle actually looked & often bear no relation at all to how close your shots actually came to the target. I've seen replays which showed every bullet missing by 20m or more, yet the enemy plane was shot down.
If that true how will I ever improve my terrible defection shooting.
I suggest lots of practice in custom battles vs AI planes.
Great analysis as usual.
Gradually getting used to the thought of playing RB. Thank you very much for the insights!
Where RB will really be attractive to Arcaders like ourselves is when they finally introduce EC on a permanent basis. This video shows both the good and bad points of the current mode. The good is shown in the flight models which are far less forgiving, but the bad ... the game was decided before Undeceived even made contact with the enemy, and that's a lot of time to spend in a game with absolutely no hope of a reward.
I totally agree with your assessment of the current situation. In addition I would like to add that I feel only in arcade you can get those 10 and above kills without losing a plane on a regular basis, which certainly greatly contributes to the lure of arcade.
this guy needs more subs great video.
Hey nice vid I learned some stuff! I just started playing WT a week ago and im trying to learn the basics, your videos really help! +1 sub
Damn great music selection this time around. Digging the triangle / bass.
Music's getting harder - I'm having to make absolutely sure I either have explicit permission to use it, or I go with a track that has a royalty-free licence. Really narrows the choice.
He was really outnumbered but he should performed a scissors manuver against the P38 Lightning
its look like.. the spit pilot its a BnZoomer... he fight same with this plane.
Anyway.. this situation always happend for the SL agony of some pilots (bf109)
why give up the advantage when you have it
Love this series well done.
You know how many times I tried wiping the mouse cursor off my phone 🤣🤦♂️
Duuuuuude, you need your old intro back! I jizz my pants every time i see that sick P400 turn you pull in that clip! :D Oh and please do point me in the direction of a full video including that clip, would love to hear commentary on how you did it, and just the full battle. Pretty sure i found it before, but my memory is really bad...
Heh, some people were telling me they were bored with it ;) The video it came from is almost 2 years old now - czcams.com/video/3ApItmDkDuY/video.htmlm15s
All the flight models have changed markedly since then. I don't think I could pull off those maneuvers with the P-400 as easily now, but P-36 Hawks aren't as good either, and nor do Stuka D-5s turn like Zeros any more ;)
Well, some people are boring i guess ;) thanks for the link
I'm not sure about the that later spits, but I know that the earlier ones easily out-climbed the 109 and the climbing spiral is a very good tactic for them in my experience.
Yes they do out-climb the 109s, however this particular Spit pilot was obviously not a great climber, having nearly stalled his plane out by trying to climb at a steep angle at 7000m. Undeceived couldn't have known that though.
And yes, I love climbing spirals, I use them all the time, however there were opportunities to go on the attack that the Spit pilot didn't take - he stuck with the spiral for too long when it wasn't necessarily needed.
+long5hot agreed
spits are OP as all hell, you should never be touched by anything except a shiden kai or bearcat, period.
Another nice vid man.
One thing I really liked about your arcade videos was showing how to use the underdog planes like the a-36 and the float zero, Are such videos possible in realistic what about heavy fighters?
Its much much harder to do well with an underdog plane in Realistic. With far fewer planes in the air, you're extremely likely to be isolated sooner or later vs a superior plane (or planes) with the energy advantage on you, and it'll be all you can do to survive as long as possible hoping for a mistake which usually won't eventuate. In Arcade you can hide in the crowd, plus there's rudder-turn tricks that most Arcade players don't understand, but which aren't possible in RB.
Re your last question about heavy fighters, I don't see much role for them in Arcade let alone the other modes. They're poor fighters with below-average maneuverability, acceleration and energy retention, and neither are they bombers. Historically they were used in either a ground attack or night fighter role, but in Arcade there are other planes that handle ground attack better, and there's no real need for ground attack in RB - and of course the game does not have a mode for night fighters.
So, is it better to be very high and wait for the enemy team rather than climbing to 3000m more or less and try to help your team? What he is doing shouldn't be counted as bad teamplay? Or should his fighter team had done the same and climb a lot? 3:00
And how ascending at a specific speed should be done? Do you have a video on that?
Every time I watch a video or forum about german fighters, I still can't change my mind about how awfully they perform.
109's are bricks in game... :/
@@maxsuarezmuller7186 that's why I suggest the FW not 109 if using Germany; also a brick but good firepower. Accept head ons.
@@tnix80 109's may be bricks, they are still very competative.
@@maxsuarezmuller7186 sure. One big CZcamsrs favorite plane is the 109 K. I'll have to give them another try.
How can you submit replays? I was flying my bf 109 F-1 and had two kills when my last team mate died wanted to run but gave up and turned around and took two with me but here's my question: could I've done something different which would've helped my team or at least won the game?
Pls send to iamlong5hot@gmail.com - I'll take a look if I can, and let you know if its something I can use in a vid.
better practice in arcade, you mean when 6 are on your tail while avoiding additional people trying to ram you?, if you can make it out of that this scenario is amateur hour
In arcade the game is totally diferent. If u want to get better rezults in rb play only rb. In ww2 the diference between fighters was tiny. Was the pilot skills making the difference. In war thunder if you play in a bf 109 against spitfire you re lost even if u are a better pilot. The difference between those fighters is huge.
Does anyone know any good control setups for ps4 ? I want to be able to do manoeuvres like in the pc version but the current setup I have on ps4 is very hard to try any thing that I see that is on the pc. Any tips ?
Then why do i always get shot down by bf 109s when im in a spitfire ohhhhh because i suck thats why
1:09 -- Is this a test, Long5hot? "Indicative" airspeed? Indicated, I think you'll find. ;)
Versus true airspeed, which factors in what the pitot instrumentation senses.
Heh, ok - words go into my head & come out different these days. I think its early Al Simons ...
www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/475y3p/fw190d13_climb_rate_stat_sheet_because_overnight/
After those series of posts, I found in my experience that you can sustain climb rates even, at lower air speeds when you pass 5000-5500m altitude. it may not be a huge advantage, but I'll always take whatever advantage I can before engaging.
only tactic you are good at is to get to ridiculously high altitude and spawn camp in AB. very funny to see you analyze others in RB
ok.
Oh Jesus, you're the reason I play this game. Please, comment on all of my videos and tell me I'm a no good spawn camper too. Your rage induced insults make my day :)
we need a series about this but too bad the last video he made was 2 years ago
WT changed their replay system such that you can no longer see precisely where the user had their camera pointed - its movements are laggy. That stopped me making Analyze This videos I'm afraid. Even if I was still playing the game and making vids, if that change hasn't been reversed then these vids would still be out of the question.
long5hot at least you’re here because no one knows if you’re gonna make new vids again
yep, I don't know either :)
i often outdive spits by breaking their wings
Hello Long5hot I need some advice I had told you before that im a ps4 player and the problem I am having the most is I have no rudder control using the controller and I have a hard time looking around because you have to hit 2 buttons to look around and you fly straight while doing it( which gets me shot down) so my question is do you have any tactic for someone who can not use the rudder? ( last time I talked to you I was trying to get the wife to let me buy a mouse and keyboard.....Hehe im still working on that) Thanks
Your best option would be to fly dedicated boom & zoomers / interceptors. Some examples - P-47, F4U, P-51, FW190, Ki-44, Ki-102, J7W1, Typhoons, Tempests. Planes that rely on flying at a high speed and require very smooth handling, that you'd never want to dogfight in but instead focus purely on hit & run tactics which is what boom & zoom is.
I guess im stuck with BnZ tactics too bad bombers die in 2 shots now I was enjoying doing bombing runs when I got bored with Air to Air combat. Thank you for the information
Yak and spit dive wing rips have let Germany win many matches.
Its 270 ias actually, for all the 109 G's and K. Its 280 for the F.
And its up untill 4500, after that you should go down 10 kmh per 1km.
So at 6km its actually best to climb at 255 you really should correct this.
Good info, thanks, but its impossible to make any changes to a youtube video once its uploaded :\
some time we need to do stuff we don't like doing in work, ( a job with an hobby can be enjoyable if a person is willing to take the extra step ) .....
the more a person laugh the more more people get attracted !
why ... they want a good time too ....
all successful you tubers use it , it's obvious they put it on.
I know there is nothing in video games can make a person laugh but hye ...
you can lie & get what ever u want .
how can i finde videos of pilot you mentioned messerschmit
Here's his channel - czcams.com/channels/4CMQAxmWBi9wigqmMsTLyQ.html
And the maneuvers I referred to are demonstrated in this vid - czcams.com/video/f5B_G1VdO-o/video.html
Great video, m8! I hope all has been well with you! Is everything going alright? I noticed you haven't posted too much in the last couple weeks unless I just cannot see the videos for some reason... Just worried about you, m8! Take care!
"He should have played more arcade...."
I love it! Straight into the face of RB snobs who are looking down on ABs as waste of time that will teach you nothing other than how awful arcade players play and fly their planes. How wrong they are ...
This. Plus, third person view is not realistic at all...
I suspect AB gets its reputation because... well in most battles half the players are pretty awful. But the key point to note is that in terms of actual PvP combat, AB will have far more opportunities for good tussles. You'll often get to fight the other decent pilots a few times per battle, and don't have to worry about the rather repetitive and slow moving nature of RB. It's not wonder lots of excellent pilots play it.
Yes, lots of opportunities to fight, plus a more crowded environment that will punish you for failures in situational awareness. There's always someone to shoot you down if you don't keep a close eye on your surroundings in AB.
Eric Zehner
Agree!
hey, hey, not all people are snobs about AB. i'll give AB pilots that you are 10x more aware about you're surroundings than i am. but if it came down to a *_dogfight_* i think we would win.
how do I send my replay in
its a 7 kill rb match in the i153p or a 5 kill match in the spitfire mk 9
Those would be more in the category of "ace masterclass" vids for which I'm usually wanting original footage rather than replays, as that shows me ammo, throttle, engine & flaps usage along with g-forces and the minimap. For replays I'm looking to add to the analyze this series, which focuses on where things go wrong & how players could have done things differently to improve the outcome.
Oh
That said, I guess I could look at doing a "replay of the week" looking at the best replays sent to me during that week, but ... I'm so stretched for time as it is. If I were either retired & didn't have to spend 10 hours a day scratching out a living - or was a huge Jingles-esque youtuber who could earn an income from advertising revenue, then I'd have no problem doing this.
+long5hot I may have a match for u to look at soon. If your ok with this of course.
Awwwww
side climbing........ do it
Or climb properly, on 260-280 km/h IAS, he could have outclimbed the P38. The spit would be above him but he could try and outspeed the spit and get a option to start a attack.
Hey longshot how can I send you a replay^
Has anyone pointed out he was isolated and by himself and the situation he was in could of been nullified if he had a wingman?
i would have ran away and then gain altitude advantage. also this dude needs to learn climbing angle at diff alts
There's not much he could have done there. Especially when your the last one left.
True, but by squandering his energy he made it much easier for them to shoot him down than he needed to.
+long5hot true
Had he used his speed to fly over the airfield he could force the Spitfire to dodge away from triple-A, then set himself up so he is not in such a disadvantage. Its what I would have done.
how and where to send replays?
iamlong5hot@gmail.com
However, if the replay isn't accompanied by comments/questions showing where to look in the replay & what specifically the player would like to know ... or its just a replay of a "good game", I can't guarantee that I'll even get to watching it let alone making a video. I do receive a lot of replays, sometimes half a dozen a day ;)
would like to review sim replays?
Sure, however as my exposure to Sim is very slight, I might struggle to identify anything of value to comment about. I'd certainly take a look at a Sim replay, but I'd only produce a video if I thought I could add something of value & interest.
yeah u can view it in third person too, almost like RB, and thnx a lot man :)
every 109 is same mach for every spitfire exept the LF mk9, that is the only spitfire that will in 90% of time outturn a 109, other then that is down to pilot skill
I've only performed rigorous flight tests for Spits up to the IIb, and 109s up to the F-4, but those Spits easily out-turn those 109s.
i ll have to disagre f4 is same as spit if not even bether 1v1 not problems at all
The Bf 109 F series onward (IIRC) can *compete* with Spitfire in turning at high speed, but it can't keep up for too long though. Which is why Yak-9 players were often surprised when a 109 out turning them.
+Lai SY yes but with landing flaps on 109 u can keep up with spitfire for 2 3 turns
HEX King Landing flaps! Didn't thought of that! Isn't that quite risky though?
He could of eject it was a no win situation
The best way to fly against spits is to take them into vertical engagements at high speeds, their performance suffers while the 109's at its element.
Dive away with the spit behind you until you hit a high speed and then kill throttle, pull up around the spits rip speed (he will also have to pull up) and you'll usually be able to get a shot off on him. I've found this only works on stupid spitfire pilots, but there's plenty of stupid pilots in WT.
The only time this wont work is when you have to fly againt more than 2 enemies or against something like a 47 which you can out turn but not outdive.
hey play jet
first! Also am i the only one who's video was playing only on 720 and 1080p?
CZcams hadn't processed all the different resolutions yet - give it time and they'll all be available.
long5hot ohh thnks
+long5hot How can I get a reply file to you so that you can tell me what I should have done. I just flew out my p51 and got my butt kicked
Sorry GG, just realized I hadn't answered your question. Send an email to iamlong5hot@gmail.com.
He was dead anyway
Only he could do is make spitfire rip
why are you everywhere
than again, that makes me everywhere.
BUT STILL
Lol no. He was facing a shitty spit pilot, and 2 PS4 players (having played the game on console, i know they don't stand a chance against a decent KB/M user, granted you can use KB/M on PS4, but i doubt they are)
I'm not knocking the 109 pilot, but he isn't good at the game, at least not yet. Any decent pilot could've won this game alone.
Really? Shitty Spit pilot lol- I don't know about you but I think someone who knows the basics of energy fighting isn't that bad. He did several well-performed chandelles and never broke his wings off either.
g6 vs lf? hardly any point trying. the g6 is so outclassed
leeboy29680 yeah the g2 is a better dogfigter