History's greatest fall from fame - the most famous person you've never heard of
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- čas přidán 27. 10. 2022
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For many centuries, one historical figure was the second-most famous person in the old (western) world, but has since been forgotten. Who was it?
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Osiris image by Rama, CC BY-SA 3.0 FR creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Anubis image by Metropolitan Museum of Art, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Out-of-focus Ra image by Louvre Museum (typical, eh?), CC BY-SA 2.0 FR creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Nubians image by Charles Wilkinson, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Egyptian boat model image was donated to Wikimedia Commons as part of a project by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. See the Image and Data Resources Open Access Policy, CC0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Sophonisba images by:
By Giambattista Pittoni - Web Gallery of Art: Image Info about artwork, Public Domain, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Nicolas Régnier, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
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Yes! A 45 minute video of Lloyd just waffling about something from history. This is PEAK LindyBeige!
Wish there were more videos like that
AnUBis is CoOl
Agreed. However the destination video to that really old smithy or old bridge talking about the first rail cars was really good
Yeah life doesn’t get much better than this.
This is exactly the lindybeige that I want and love. Could there be more to come?
No, I can honestly say I've never before heard of Sophonisba. But after waiting 15 minutes to find out who it is I haven't heard of, I'm now thoroughly invested in hearing about why I should have heard of her.
The guys a genius at capturing an audience.
Thanks for the tip about 15 minutes. We'd been about to turn off the dreary intro when I saw your comment and we skipped ahead.
Mind you, it was still boring when we got there, but at least we learned the name.
I think there's enough here for a good 5-10 minute video.
@@captainidiot4301 not everyone! I didn't get halfway - and Hannibal is one of my heroes....
@@jonathonjubb6626 try smoking some pot and try again!
why does lindybeige always look like he's fresh from the trash can
I suspect another factor contributing to Cleopatra being more well known is the fact that even after having watched this video, I could not spell the names of the two guys that Sophonisba married, and certainly never heard of them before this. Julius Caesar on the other hand has to be one of the other contenders for "most famous people ever."
Hardly anyone can spell Julius Caesar, though
@@hungrycrab3297 Yep. _Really_ measuring historical notoriety by counting the original artworks? I'd say Stalin is more famous just by number of surviving portraits and statues, especially when you include photographic evidence of the ones that were torn down since. Other modern cult leaders are similarly famous, Mao especially.
Of course, if we talk about western classical/ancient history, then I'd argue this order: *Alex, Julius, Cleo...* and from then on your mileage varies. I never thought of Sophonisbe being _that big_ in art, so I did learn something here. She's one of two Carthaginian women I heard of, the other being Dido who is mythical however.
When you narrow down just to classical women... sure, Lindy makes totally sense with Cleo being first, followed by Sophie.
Yeh I think Caesar is probably more famous than Cleopatra, although not by much.
Lindy’s slightly high annoyance to using the exact same name for more than one person is so relatable
Can't get over how beige this video is from the outset
It's a fine color.
Weird observation but you're very right
Wouldn't have it any other way.
I'm quite familiar with Sophonisba. As an Algerian we get to study the history of ancient Numidia, especially the power struggle between Masinissa and Syphax that she was involved in.
It is easy to believe that she is still famous in Algeria. In the wider world, though, Cleo seems to have dominated.
Numidia is an air conditioning system you dipstick.
bro as an algerian do you think it's crazy that people bring up the french's occupation as some crazy crime against humanity and totally undue but the moor occupation and subjugation of the the native africans is actually perfectly fine
@@ogfridgeman5546 the French occupation is discussed more because it’s recent history, whereas the moors have been around for a long time to the extent that people have kind of forgotten they aren’t indigenous to that area. In the eyes of Europeans, the image of a litham-wearing moor is what first comes to mind when thinking about North Africa
@@ogfridgeman5546 or Spain for that matter
From the lead singer of Jethro Tull to a CZcamsr. What a fascinating career!
Bro, you just made me picture Lindy on a stage, flute in hand, singing Aqualung... Thank you xD
He does bring songs from the wood.
🤣
I had never heard of Sophonisba. In terms of those we've all heard of, I always thought Alexander was the most famous person. Liz 2 fulfilled her role pretty much faultlessly for an incredible amount of time but will she be remembered in 200 years? 2000 years?
I'd confidently say that Caesar, Jesus and Mohammed (among others) are considerably, considerably, more famous than Cleopatra from a global, historical stand-point. And Queen Elizabeth II? Michael Jackson and John Lennon were arguably far more famous during the 20th century.
On the one hand yes, on the other hand it works better rhetorically to point to two other examples of famous queens.
@@PrinceTrillian I somehow missed he was comparing queens.
@@gandalf1379 I only realized that halfway through typing a comment agreeing with you... ;D
In the same way we “remember” figures, who lived hundreds of years ago, yes.
I’ve must’ve watched 3/4’s of his videos… these long monologues are the best
Personal motives that Scipio might have had aside, humiliating an ally (just enough to put them in their place, but not enough to turn them against you) sounds like a *very* Roman thing to do...
With every video , Lindy looks more and more like an insane homeless man
I swear he's a researcher for the hitch hiker's guide to the galaxy.... or possibly even the encyclopedia galactica.
but in a good way
I'm actually a historian and had never heard of Sophonisba before today! And my thesis was on ancient history! Damn Polybios and damn you, Lindybeige!
The problem with history is we just keep making more of it.
Well, when he said Sophonisbe, I DID know she was a Carthaginian woman who was betrayed by Massinissa when he switched to the Roman side. So, the latter I believed to be more famous.
I don't think you included the original meeting between Syphax, Scipio and Hasdrubal. Both Scipio and Hasdrubal were courting Syphax, and Scipio had arrived on a single ship, while Hasdrubal had arrived with several. Scipio hurried to enter the harbour first and thus come under the host's protection.
During the subsequent dinner including all three, Scipio befriended the other two. Which unnerved Hasdrubal, as if even he, Scipio's major enemy, liked him, Syphax was guaranteed to be lost to Carthage. Thus he secured Syphax by giving him Sophonisba.
Plus Masinissa’s people had descended into turmoil with political unrest of GoT proportions. He wasn’t seen as stable an ally as Syphax at that moment.
That is a tale worthy of it's own video, I thought. Indeed, I'm planning to make it one of the Tales of The Punic Wars.
@@lindybeige
12:30
The Macedonians were Dorian Greeks. They claimed they were descendants of Hercules. Olympias [the mother of Alexander the Great] was from the House of the Molossians.
I can't believe you reiterated word for word the propaganda of our North Slav neighbors who claim Alexander was a Slav.
Most Greek City-States fought one another at some point. I'm certain you are familiar with the Peloponnesian War, between Athens and Sparta.
The Macedonians were without an iota of doubt 100% Greek. Please correct this blunder ASAP. Thank you for your [otherwise] very informative and entertaining content.
@@JohnGeometresMaximos I never said that they were Slavs, and the Dorians were invaders, don't forget. We don't know a huge amount about the Macedonian language, but it is thought that it was related to Greek. The upper classes of the Hellenistic Macedonians adopted Attic Greek as their language. Once you speak Greek, you are Greek, as the term is a linguistic one, so Ptolemy was 'Greek' in that sense. Yes, the Greek city states fought each other a lot, but they would unite against external non-Greek threats like the Persians and Macedonians.
@@lindybeige
The Slav part was badly phrased I admit. My point was not that you claimed Alexander was a Slav, but rather that you used the same rhetoric and reasoning with those who do claim Alexander was a Slav.
The Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect much like the Cretans and the Cypriots. Also, in the video you specifically state that Alexander and his family were not Greek. This is your big mistake here. You didn't say that the Kingdom of Macedonia had non-Greek subjects. You specifically made a point about Alexander. Alexander was as Greek as the philosopher Aristotle, and Leonidas the king of Sparta.
Greek is not a linguistic term like Arab or Slav. The Greeks were all related by blood/ancestry, language, and worship of the [same] gods. Regarding your last point, I would like to remind you that Sparta allied with the Persians against Athens. What does that prove regarding the "Greekness" of the Spartans? Also, the Spartans refused to fight against Alexander at the very important Battle of Chaeronea. Moreover, you did not mention that in that battle, Alexander had the city-states of Epirus, Thessaly, Aetolia, and Phocis on his side! Is that proof that these four city-states were also not Greek?
It's at least nice that you stayed away from quoting the politician/orator Demosthenes whose speeches our Slav neighbors use constantly to make the point that ALL Greeks hated the Macedonians and considered them Barbarians. Of course this is not the case since we have proof that Macedonians participated in the Olympic Games - where non-Greeks were absolutely forbidden to participate!
Last but certainly not least we have Arrian's report of Alexander sending 300 pieces of Persian armor back to Greece [as war spoils after the victory on Granicus], with the inscription:
"Ἀλέξανδρος Φιλίππου καὶ οἱ Ἕλληνες πλὴν Λακεδαιμονίων ἀπὸ τῶν βαρβάρων τῶν τὴν Ἀσίαν κατοικούντων."
"Alexander son of Phillip and the Greeks apart from the Lacedemonians from Asia the land of the Barbarians."
What a lovely surprise! Dr. Fears was my senior honors thesis advisor back in the 90s, and I took several of his courses in my undergrad days. "Lectern Casual" is definitely a good description of his teaching style. He passed away about 10 years ago, but I strongly suspect he would have enjoyed your channel.
That's cool!
What did you get to hear from him?
Boomer Sooner!
Lindy: Sophonisba is the subject of the video and admit it, you've never heard of her.
Me: I definitely feel like I have heard of her.
Lindy: Many of you are very good at deluding yourselves so by the end you will say you already knew about her.
Me: Actually, I bet I'm thinking about someone else. Yep I definitely haven't heard of her.
Sometimes it's Hardcore History, sometimes it's Lindybeige. Sometimes I want a bourbon, sometimes I want to share a pint. Always a pleasure to visit.
I think Jesus is probably the most widely known person on earth. Not in his life time but to this day certainly.
I would count Kleopatra as one of the most known historical figures. If you ask people about antiquity (or however it is written in englisch) you'll hear Ceasar, Alexander the great, Cleopatra, Asterix and Obelix and one of those many Roman or greek Philosophers.
You left out Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor of china, who was known to billions of people in Chinese history. As much a contender as Alexander or Caesar.
You spelled antiquity right, but not English
@@TocsTheWanderer sorry, the good old german "sch" writing. Will just never get out of my system. :F
@@leone.6190 yeah, English language is pretty messed up. Ph=f, c=k or s, etcetera
@@phredphlintstone6455 you're watching a video about Greco Roman history and blaming English for the ph and k problem? Hmmm, etymological studies for you.
Lindy, I'd just like to thank you for getting me into history. You showed me 4 years ago that history can be fun, that you can engage with it in a passionate way, and that it is a dialogue that requires critical thinking. You really are doing the world a public service.
Every time I hear stories about Carthage I get a twin feeling of "wow this was a really interesting place" and "it feels like somebody (somebodies) spent a *lot* of effort making sure as much information about Carthage was buried as deep as possible."
Like there was a massive, massive effort to make sure nothing remains of Carthage besides "they fucked around with Rome and found out; good riddance."
Rome and Carthage, both brutal in their own way, however Carthage had normalized child sacrifice, Rome had not.
Well ifyou knew anything about the Punic wars and Rome you would know that that the "someone" who spent a lot of time and effort to erase Carthage from history was Rome itself. That Rome totally destroyed the city of Carthage burnt it down and then salted the land it stood on should have clued you in.
@@luisrey4904 fair enough, however in the case of Sophonisba, the only reason we know about her is the Romans passed her story on to us. Also, there's no need to be needlessly dismissive of the knowledge or intelligence of others. Treat others, even those you hold in contempt, as you would want to be treated. Take care.
@@chadparsons50 I mean tbf we only have Rome's sayso about Carthage's child sacrifice and it's not out of the ballpark to assume that's war propaganda; they said similar things about many other cultures too like the Druids - another culture/religion that they made a great effort to completely wipe out. The Romans also tried to do something similar to the early Christian faith citing it as a death cult and persecuting its members until Christianity managed to worm its way into Roman high society.
It's fair to say, one of the things which allowed Rome to survive so long is that any real threats to them were dealt with mercilessly - meaning instead of wasting time and lives with the classic generations of rivalry held by other nations, they could one-and-done it with a total genocide and move on with no one later judging them because there are no children and no written texts to tell the story of the fallen nations. Compare it to say the British Empire which is now viewed with contempt across much of the world despite having a similar impact to the technological and cultural development of the human race as the Roman empire because they allowed their enemies to continue to live and tell their side of the story - continuing to propegate anti-British sentiment which still affects modern Britain. If the British Empire were more evil, we would likely view them now with more sympathy because we would only have colonialist propaganda to tell us of that time and the people who fought against foreign invaders. You can appreciate the long-sightedness of their slaughter even if you abhore the immorality of it.
"Anubis is cool!"
Lloyd is a lot of things, but I never expected him to be a Goa'uld agent.
I suspect he's a fan of Paul Spooner's automata and the Caberet Mechanical Theatre.
Indeed, Andrew Felsher.
Historical Macedonia included way more than the modern country of North-Macedonia. It also included the parts of modern Greece that are not coincidentally called Macedonia.
Thanks! Always enjoy your work.
Always good to hear from you Lloyd. Hope you're well.
Anubis is cool! Lloyd is tackling difficult topics again...
Thinking about Hall Caine now - one of the biggest novelists of the late 19th Century and early 20th Century, selling millions of books and having tons and tons of early movies made about his works, now largely forgotten outside of the Isle of Man. Fickle fame!
thanks for the book recommendations. I've never heard of him.
edit
I would add that there are a lot of popular and successful authors now, a few who could be studied in literature classes to some degree, but most aren't.
I could see Stephen King being largely forgotten in the future.
one can read a Stephen King novel or read The Great Gatsby, Of Mice and Men, maybe some Hesse or Kafka. All that would take less time than reading some of Kings novels.
So I think posterity favors quality over quantity.
I am not disparaging the quality of the author's work, which I haven't read
I thought of the same person. I live in Douglas, IOM and one day was sitting in the public garden where he has a statue. I had started reading Dracula and noticed the Manx-sounding dedication to “Hommy Beg”. After a quick Google I discovered this was in fact Bram Stoker’s nickname for Hall Caine.
It was baffling to me how such an iconic book could be entirely dedicated to this hopelessly obscure man from my little island, whose likeness was standing right next to me.
Shout-out to the Egyptology kids who were there whole-heartedly when Lindy said Egypt was cool.
Never thought i would hear lindy say "cuckolds". My respect for you has risen.
One of the hallmarks of well spoken people is that they use the right words at the right times. I've often come across this strange opinion that people who have a vaguely posh way of speaking would refrain from speaking about essential biological functions and the parts of our cultures we've constructed around them.
This is exactly the kind of Lindybeige video I enjoy watching most of all.
Please, more of this.
Though, a bit light on the cradling part, I must say.
If your measure of historical fame is artworks inspired by a person, shouldn't a certain Jesus of Nazareth be somewhere in the running?
You did it again, lindy… absolutely exquisite absolutely phenomenal production.
Top-class stuff this Lindy...
Thanks! ☺ 👍
I haven't counted, but I am very, very certain that Jesus of Nazareth has had more artwork done of him than Cleopatra.
I only came here to note whether anyone else has Lindy pegged as one of the handful of pseudointellectuals who claims Jesus wasn't a real historical figure.
@@fisharmor IIRC he has been agnostic about the existence of the historicity of Jesus elsewhere
There are very few artworks of jesus prior to the 7th century cause of the banning of icons in the byzantine empire but yeah prolly he outweighs her
jesus wasn't white
@@arc-sd8sk He was fictional. Pick your flavor
I actually expected him to talk about some random british aristocrat for an hour. But clicking randomly into the video I heard him say something about Rome and Carthage. This is going to be good!
Damn, I should consider myself lucky. I did know about her but not a lot. In Spain, we get taught about the carthaginians a lot more in-depth than most of Europe, for obvious reasons. Didn't know about her fame, though; I knew about the couple of peaks in interest regarding ancient history all over Europe, but had no idea she had inspire just SO. MUCH. ART!!!
Awesome video, as always.
I had indeed heard of her, because the Punic Wars are my nerdgasm button, but that's literally it... I recognized the name; she was mentioned in passing in one passage I read once upon a time. I knew nothing about her, and certainly had no idea that she may have in fact been pivotal in explaining that famous defection.
I'm having a hard time imagining that Jesus Christ isn't the most famous person in the world. During their lifetime the queen has a bid, but overall...
Fictional characters don't count.
@@azdgariarada There is no doubt at all that he was a genuine living human being, and no serious historian disputes the simple fact of his existence.
Whether or not you believe in everything ascribed to him is another matter entirely, although you can't possibly dispute the number of artworks or the proportion of the world's population who have at the very least heard of him. Even in Islam, he is recognised as a prophet, so that is two, and arguably three, of the world's major religions (Judaism because his coming was long prophesied in their religion).
I suspect Thor is currently more famous than Jesus.
@@Milamberinx
Everyone has heard of Jesus, Thor is a bit less widespread.
@@phillee2814 That's a massive statement. I have seen multiple articles from well known scholars that cast doubt on the existence of Jesus being an actual being. Add to that the many more articles that also claim that he was probably a mixture of various rabbis wandering the area around the same time. The fact that there is no direct evidence and the first writings are many decades after a supposed death means that yes, there is serious dispute. The fact that 3 religions mention a prophet in totally different ways doesn't help the matter at all and wouldnt provide any evidence. But as you say it doesnt matter if a man existed or not, it matters if the feats ascribed to him happened or not, and for that there is zero proof
.
The small town of Cartagena in Spain celebrates its history of the Punic wars in its local fiesta in September. Practically the whole town (well lots do!) dresses up and they do parades and reenactments of battles.
There is a picture of Sophonisba at the Thyssen art gallery in Madrid, which we are going to visit tomorrow, I shall look on it with far more interest now.
Thanks for the history lesson👌👌
Good luck from Spain!!
You mean Cartago Nova? In Murcia?
@@NocKme No, it's Cartagena but yes it's in the province of Murcia
@@NocKme this gives you an ideaczcams.com/video/6kDRL32gTrI/video.html
@@davidberlanny3308 looks awesome. My girlfriend is from Murcia and every time we in spain I try to tell her I want to go to Carthagena, but she keeps telling me there is nothing to see or do and that no one cares about that place 😂
@@NocKme Hahaha .... It obviously depends on what you like doing!! Its home to the Isaac Peral one of the first modern style submarines, a Roman amphitheatre an underwater archeology museum with lots of old forts that defended the city. It's off the beaten track for most tourists though. Lindy would love it I'm sure ..... Ive worked there for over 20 years but since COVID work from home. Good luck y saludos a tu novia!!
I usually skip the sponsery bit of others' videos but out of deep respect for your content I always watch yours. Thanks for making them enjoyable for us, the viewer, as well.
I think Jesus beats the Queen for fame, as Time is also a factor: The Queen has only been famous since 1952 . . .
Historical people, not fan-fiction people.
@@Milamberinx So Jesus didn't exist? That's a new one.
@@Milamberinx Jesus is historical figure. Even soviets acknwoledged that.
@@Milamberinx There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than anyone in history apart from Chris Chan
These entertaining history rants were why I subscribed to begin with, good to see it 👍 😀
Also, any update on your friend that went to be a driver in Ukraine?
I was wondering about him too.
psycotik..i feel alot of pain and dispair..autism on big scale
@@verac6731 he´s sick
hes dead
Used as cannon fodder by Banderite neo-naghties.🤣🤣
I'm pretty sure a certain austrian painter was once the most famous alive person in the world.
Infamous
He clarifies around 3:50 that to have the most people hear of you, you have to be alive now, 2 Billion in 1940 vs 8 billion now
@@LewisB3217 still famous though
A bit lacking in the opera/poetry/restoration drama department maybe?
If only Klimt had taken Paris in 1940!
Excellent work Lloyd
I like how unscripted your videos are it feels like I'm just having a conversation with a guy at the pub lol
That's not a conversation. It's being stuck in a nook and the local eccentric picks you to come and monologue at whilst taking all the space you need to escape. Make sure your glass is full otherwise you'll be very thirsty very soon.
marc anthony wasn't Julius Caesar's rival, but his right hand man. she hooked up with him after Caesar died.
I think he meant Octavius
@@Alamyst2011 , yes he was to quick, I think he confused something (I know Octavius also took G. Julius Caesar as full name)
35:16 Masinissa would not have had to love her to be extremely mad for losing her. After all, her father did promise her to him, only to give her to his greatest rival instead. That there is probably one of the biggest insults anyone can ever recive.
Thank you, I quite enjoyed your video.
i'm laughing my head off...drama and sexiness...and dying slowly while singing an aria...
As always on all matters - entraining, informative and intelligent . . .
When I studied Classical Greek for GCSE we (all three of us in the class) joked about how we had a Roman mosaic of a Macedonian man on our Greek textbooks.
Man I love very particular historical rants by charismatic people. That background looks interesting, I wonder what it means.
I'm not really surprised Cleopatra's more famous, she got involved with the most famous Roman in history and his sidekick, Sophonisba had two guys most people have never heard of. And somehow 'Cleopatra' just looks better on posters and book covers and sounds better in movie trailers than 'Sophonisba'.
Lindy seems to have deliberately cut off "history" in the year 1900. Before then, educated elites and artists were all highly trained in classical knowledge, including Sophonisbe.
The 20th century's mass media created entirely new classics. Imagine the buffoon who admits in society to never have heard of Mickeymouse and James Bond.
But _really_ measuring historical notoriety by counting the original artworks? I'd say Stalin is more famous just by number of surviving portraits and statues, especially when you include photographic evidence of the ones that were torn down since. Other modern cult leaders are similarly famous, maybe Mao is more "famous".
Maybe the similarities between Cleo and Soph suggest that this was basicly the North African Classic Eras version of a telenovela?
Lloyd u have an amazing following even my self and u mostly ramble but we love it keep it up
All my friends kept saying lindybeige was running out of stuff to talk about but I knew a video like this was coming
I can’t make you understand enough what a magnificent orator you are.
Careful,
This is what I love about Lindy, within the first ten minutes he talks about the Queen, England, television, Obama, Cleopatra, Fame and how it often happens, Egyptian gods, Caesar, Antony, (Caesarian though barely) Alexander, Romeo and Juliet, Battle of Actium, Ptolemy and Carthage. All without getting onto the true topic of the video, as of writing this comment 10:08 I still have no clue, my guess is… Kublai Khan? Or one of his successors/predecessors.
It's obviously the guy who designed the Bren.
Excellent video, Lloyd!
Yeeeees, a classic Lloyd ramble upload, these are my favourite 😍
I too am drowning in obscurity
If we're talking about historical figures few people know of that had insanely dramatic life stories, my vote would go to Iya Nacuaa Teyusi Ñaña, or 8 Deer Jaguar Claw, a Mixtec conqueror from the Mesoamerican (Aztec, Maya, etc) Early Postclassic period, who we happen to know quite a bit about due to 8 surviving books from that period in Oaxaca: He was a noble born in the city of Tilantongo in 1063 AD, and early in life acted as a general for another city, Jaltepec. In Mixtec society, various Oracles wielded political power, sanctioning wars or political marriages, and 8 Deer was permitted by one to conquer some towns in the neighboring Chatino civilization along the coasts, and he founded his own city, Tututepec there. Tilantongo's king ends up dying with no heirs, and 8 deer is granted the crown.
In 1097, a year later, 8 Deer aligns himself with 4 Jaguar of Cholula, a important city up in Central Mexico which had widespread religious influence, and where far off kings travelled to sort of like a Mesoamerican mecca. With 4 Jaguar's blessings, 8 Deer sidesteps the Oracles, and goes on a conquering spree, conquering almost 100 cities in 18 years, uniting 2 of the 3 major subregions of the Mixtec civilization (and some Zapotec, Chatino, etc centers) into an empire, and around 1101-1103, 8 deer massacres royal family of his rival dyansties, including Queen Six Monkey, with dominion over both Jaltepec and another key city, Huachino, who in her own right is an interesting figure who shrewdly consolidated political power before 8 deer pulled out the rug from under her (I might update this comment later to incorporate more of those details), except for her son, 4 wind, whom he leaves alive.
In a fitting twist of dramatic irony, 4 wind in 1115 rises up against him, and ends up assassinating (or sacrificing) 8 deer, shattering his empire into competing kingdoms and city-states again. However, Tututepec, the city 8 deer founded, remains a powerful kingdom that actually grows in the ensuing centuries, being the largest unconquered enclave inside the Aztec Empire at the time of Spanish contact, having successfully resisted Aztec expansionism, and only falls later when Conquistadors worked with the rival Zapotec kingdom of Tehuantepec to take it out.
Having said that I felt the need to add that those you speak of do sound like fascinating people and stories
You could have made all of that up and i wouldn't know the difference, but it's fascinating even then. I'd love to see a video about that story
I'd like to hear about the 8 surviving books. Been taught that the native Americans left no written records. Interesting to know if that is different.
@@grant1863 I'd refer you to my comment on TreytheExplainer's "Books You Can (Never) Read" video, where I talk about Mesoamerican writing systems and books more in depth, but in summary: Yes, writing was definitely a thing in Mesoamerica, and actually only shows up a few centuries after the very first sites (like San Lorenzo in 1400 BC) that have things like large monuments, class systems, aquaducts, etc: The Olmec Cascajal Block from 900AD for example has inscriptions on it. Other scripts like the Maya, Zapotec, and Epi-Olmec ones developed over the next few centuries. "True writing" actually has a rather strict definition that would exclude things like Egyptian Hieroglyphs, but at least the Maya script was for sure a true, complete writing system. Later Mesoamerican writing systems, like by the Aztec and Mixtec, tend to be more pictographic: arguably less "writing", and more sets of drawings that have standard conventions to be interpreted in a specific way. But that can still yield a lot of information (Like everything I said was from Mixtec pictographs), and even these still have some elements of more complex writing systems to them.
Like in a lot of ancient societies, writing and reading was mostly limited to nobles, elites, and scribes, and not all sites or civilizations have heavy use of it (but it certainly wasn't niche, either: hundreds of Maya sites have inscriptions, for example), but things like dates, numerals, and basic glyphs are pretty widespread and were used even in places where there's not evidence for heavy, extended samples of writing or pictographs. I'd also say that in a lot of cases, the lack of evidence of writing doesn't mean it wasn't there, since in a lot of cases ancient cities are buried under modern infrastructure and only small parts of sites are able to be excavated. Books also don't preserve well, so any from well before Spanish contact would have decayed already, and the Spanish burned pretty much every book they could find that was in use during colonization: We know multiple Aztec cities had large royal libraries for example, all destroyed. There's probably less then 20 surviving pre-contact books today: 8 Mixtec ones, 4 Maya ones, and then maybe a handful or so of some from Central Mexico (Aztec, Otomi, Totonac, etc). There ARE dozens of others if you include ones made with a blend of Mesoamerican and Spanish scribal conventions produced during the early colonial period, though: The Codex Mendoza for example has both Aztec pictography and Spanish text.
"Book" is also a loose term here, the technical one used is codex/codices. These were made from either paper, or things like deerskin, and rather then having multiple seperate sheets bound together on a spine, instead they were giant sheets that folded over each other like an accordion. So I guess they're more "scrolls" then "books". Some were also just single page manuscripts. Stone inscriptions were a thing too, but what method was more prevalent or if both were depends on the culture/civilization.
Writing in Mesoamerica generally dealt with political records (wars, political marriages, births/deaths of rulers, alliances, etc), astrology and astronomy (Mesoamerican calendar systems had heavy religious connotations and symbolism, with different days, months, years, etc having different meanings) and tax documentation. There are some examples of things like maps or land surveys too, even botanical/herbal documentation, but most/all of our examples of those are colonial period codices so it's hard to say for sure if those were a thing pre-contact too (I'd wager they were). Poetry, narrative style historical accounts, etc existed in Mesoamerican societies, the Aztec in particular had a huge tradition of phislophical poetry, but those were passed down orally: Even in the Maya script where you can easily record those sorts of things, they really didn't, and most Maya writing tends to be pretty dry "On X Day Y happened" sort of affairs without much qualitative descriptive or abstract text.
Outside of Mesoamerica, there's not much that people agree should count as writing even in a fairly loose sense. The closest contender would be the Quipu or khipu used by Andean civilzations (down in Peru, Bolvia, Ecuador, etc) such as the Inca: These were series of ropes tied to each other sort of like in a keychain shape, where the color, position, length, and number of knots on the Quipu indicates different information. Some argue these are more just like something akin to an Abacus, more just number counting/storing devices, but others believe and some recent research (Look up "We thought the Incas couldn't write. These knots change everything") suggests they could encode qualitative, abstract information too. There's some surviving Quipu (according to that article, actually around 900), but we can't really read them. (The Mesoamericans also had Quipu too, actually, but there's only like 2 historical references to it and no examples survive of Mesoamerican ones, so it's pretty obscure even to Prehispanic history archeology nerds like me)
Some argue that some iconography on other Andean things or Mississippian (which was the latest of a long line of cultures in the Eastern US that built towns and large earthen pyramids, the larger Mississipian sites like Cahokia are outright pretty much cities, albiet with wood and earthern buildings rather then stone ones) ones might be pictographic writing, but it's not agreed on.
Interesting that my more pertinent comment seems to have been removed...
My favourite of your videos, thank you.
I really *really* love these rant videos
Well! I had indeed never heard of Sophonisba. But now that I have I'll wait until someone asks if I have heard of her and I will reply, "Oh, but of course. She was a sort of early day Cleopatra, a daughter of one of Hannibal's generals." So there.
Has anyone ever mentioned that you somewhat resemble Ian Anderson?
Go braves
I love the PASSION of this delivery!
Bravo! Bravo! You never disappoint sir.
I hope you do more videos like Tikal, it was fabulous, I love when you do archaeology stuff the most.
There are more depictions of Cleopatra than Jesus Christ?
Wow awesome video and knowledge, thank you! Very entertaining, I really enjoyed, and no I hadn't heard of her before. Glad I found your channel, definitely going to watch more. Keep doing what you do, it is appreciated. Also, not sure why but you remind me in looks of Richard E Grant, I think he's great.. hahah, anyway, take care thank you.
That end bit is comedic gold
Honestly - never heard of Sophonisba before, but we are here to learn new stuff, aren't we?
Great video, from start to finish (and I hope they don't make that film).
Would be nice to see whole video on topic of Alexander the Great and is he Greek or Macedonian, and he relates with modern day Macedonians...
Cheers!
I watched the Wondrium course on Ancient Egypt (inspired by Lindy's sponserships of them in prior videos), in which they dedicate a lecture on Cleopatra the 7th. It was put forth that Cleo seducing the romans was likely Roman propaganda rather than a hard truth. It wasn't clear if Lindy was saying that was what happened, or just saying that was the perception of her in regards to making her famous, but just wanted to bring up this other theory since I got it from your sponser.
I think Caesar fell for her as a part of his "I just can't wait to be king" campaign, as well as her connection to -- and posession of -- Alexander the Great. I didn't think she jumped to Antony until after Caesar's assassination, but that might be Hollywood influencing me. Antony likely saw her as a source of wealth, legitimacy, troops, and ships.
Also, many people don't know that Cleopatra is a very very Greek name, and clearly not an Egyptian one. Essentially, all Ptolemaic Cleopatras were named after *Cleopatra the mother of Alexander the Great* .
Fascinating as always
Nice ad for your graphic novel Lindy!
Hah, I did actually know Sophonisba... because I had read Ad Astra some years ago. Couldn't have told you a thing about her off the top of my head, but I had heard of her.
Is it Hannibal?? I’m still searching for him.
Good luck with that
Rumors have it he has been lost in Alps
Thanks for making my day Lindy, the walking like an Egyptian was top tier stuff lol.
One of the most honest youtubers, even says he has to say the video is sponsored for legal reasons.
This is peak beige. More of this please
Lloyd, I don't mean to disparage your beliefs, but I think that there might be more paintings, play as, films, and stained glass windows of Jesus Christ than Cleopatra.
Great video Lloyd
15:00 was the only time Lloyd stopped talking for long enough that the captions bar disappeared from the screen!
Great video. I feel bad that it took me 3 weeks to fit time in to watch this. I would love to see you return to 20 minute or less long videos
A point about Carthaginian names. Look them up on Wikipedia. There’s about 20. That’s why everyone is a Hannibal, Hamilcar, Maharabal, Hanno, Hamilcar, or Gisgo
They're the only ones we know of though, there was very probably more that weren't written down by our largely Roman sources.
@@myrddinemrys1332 plus all the records they burned. Still astounding that all that remains is just a handful of names from a state that intimidated Alexander and fought two close-run wars with Rome
About the same with the Romans. At least in the upper class there were very few different given names (and about half of them were numbers*). That's why we know most of them only by cognomen and/or nickname and quite a few Romans had praenomen, nomen gentile and cognomen in common (sometimes even nickname) which can make it very frustrating to look them
up. And often some given names ran in certain families, making it even more likely to find such multiples. Even Roman historians sometimes confused them.
*secundus, quintus, sextus, septim(i)us, octavius, deci(m)us (3,4 and 9 seem to have been left out). It did not matter btw, whether the child actually was the second, fifth etc. Only Postum(i)us was limited to kids born after their father's death.
@@Segalmed I’m not sure I agree with the claim the Roman’s had about the same amount of names. A quick google search of Roman first names have a result listing 160 male names for people looking for baby names
@@garrusvakarian8666 Yes but remember one thing, we have vastly more Roman sources and of multiple levels of society. Furthermore said sources originate mostly within the culture.
Am I the only one who wishes for a return of the Q217 videos?
Not that this wasn't great, it was. But stil...
4 months i havent seen a first page for lindybeige on youtube just reporting been subbed for years
I was just listening but when I heard Lindy say "you got pyramids, you got people walking like this", I had to grab my phone and rewind to see him do the thing and it was well worth it
I would have put Jesus pretty high up there.
These types of videos from you are the best
I feel like Jesus is the most famous historical person. I’m not religious but wasn’t Jesus a real historical figure, referenced by Romans only a few decades after his death?
Edit: still half way through the video so maybe he mentioned him. Love your videos lindybeige!
He's mentioned by Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and the Babylonian Talmud amongst others
Ya I am not convinced he was a real person.
Definitely Jesus.
Also, there is more historical evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for Socrates. If we would count Socrates as historical we should be treating Jesus the same.
@@JMD501 there is enough historical evidence to conclude that Jesus was a real historical person. However there is much less evidence to corroborate anything that happened in the Bible (anything that is not "magical" obviously)
@@JMD501 yeah I mean there’s actual records of him being mentioned but it doesn’t mean he’s what everyone says he is just that he existed.
Man, David Bowie really was so good he didn't feel real
Best kind of Lindy beige video
In a roundabout way, Sophonisba has had a profound effect on the history of English literature. In 1515, the Italian scholar Trissino wrote a play called Sofonisba, which was the first tragedy written in blank verse, or versi sciolti. I have also seen it called “the first blank verse in modern literature.” So that the metrical form of all Shakespeare’s plays can be traced back, ultimately, to play based upon the life of Sophonisba. Trissino’s tragedy, however, would appear to be as little known today as is Sophonisba herself.
Lol no
The only Sofonsiba I ever heard of was Sofonisba Anguissola, The famous renaissance painter.
The small framed image on the wall behind you (to your left): is that from the Bayeux Tapestry? Greetings from Canada! I really appreciate your content.
Sophonisbe story and the Numidian power struggle are fascinating. The love story between Sophonisbe and Massinissa, him losing his throne,kingdom and fiancee to his rival Syphax. The betrayal of his ally Carthage who supported the coup in his kingdom and the invasion of his country. Losing all his aides and almost drowning in a river in his attempt to survive. Then finally coming back rising revolt and allying with Rome to restore his throne,his kingdom and his fiancee marrying her before giving her poison so she could die as his wife and not that of his enemy and rival. That's what I believe
I think, Scipio WANTED her. And Massinissa KNEW that. Love is a crazy thing, especially when the object of it is one of these girls that just make your blood feel like needles. Scipio had seen her before. As soon as he heard she was captured alive, he wasted no time. He thought he would take her to Rome, show her the good life, spend some quality time together, later maybe use her as a political token, set her up with some influential patrician and she would live as a matron in some villa in Apulia. Now that Syphax was defeated, Massinissa no longer had anything to withold to defend his position. Massinissa, on the other hand, well his heart must have sank and his blood ran cold when he realized he was losing her to the Roman. He figured she was never coming back and so rather than give her away to Scipio, out of rage and jealousy and desperation - he might have poisoned her, or, convinced her to drink it. Sophonisba, while used to having a certain effect on men, does not come off to me as quite the Livia type. A young girl who shows faithful loyalty to her country and her family does not need to manipulate - her sincere conviction is enough. She doubtlessly hated Rome, seeing them as cruel invaders and barbarians. The thought of being made property to the Roman general must have been enough to want to die instead, but she might have also felt contempt for Massinissa's weakness. Such a husband you are, that you give me as chattel to my enemy. Where is your manhood, lover. Etc. She might have just drank poison on her own initiative, to punish the both of them and avoid a fate she considered worse than death. Whatever the detail may be, I think drinking poison is not the act of a cunning manipulator or narcissist, who ultimately would sacrifice everything and everyone to her own needs. If she was a calculating manipulator of men, she would have stayed alive and tried to play the two against each other but she was far above that, it seems to me.
I thought at the start with QE2 you were going to make the point that more people knew her because the population of the world during her reign, and thus the number of people who have heard of her far exceeds the number of people who lived in the ancient world even over a period of thousands of years
The median human at the moment was born in the 1700s so potentialy the most famous person would be someone who came to fame around then and is still known today, maybe Napoleon? Alternatively the christians would argue Jesus which I honestly think isnt a bad argument.
@@DylanSwayneHughes I would probably say if not Jesus, then Muhammed who WAS a historical figure, while Jesus' existance is a bit more controversial
@@Unknownmonkey13 Roman's had records of jesus of Nazareth
@@Unknownmonkey13 Not really controversial. Even non-Christian proximal sources (Tacitus, Josephus) were very happy to say there was a man called Jesus to whom various miracles were attributed. The controversial bit is the resurrection (except to muslims, who think he wasn't crucified iirc).
That said, the Buddha might have a better case given the populations of India, China, Japan, and so on, and the fact that he was born a thousand or so years before Jesus, so has a bit of a headstart.
I'm certain that Jesus, Mohammed, and Siddhartha must be the most famous people on the planet, but if we set aside religious figures I think a case could be made for Hitler being the most famous person (or infamous, in this case).
I've definitely seen the painting you showed before, but didn't know about Sophonisba herself.
Side note: it's interesting seeing what the auto-generated subtitles are doing with these names. It's pretty good about Scipio, but Masinissa has been both "Massachusetts" and "masanism" among other things, etc.
Yayyyyy... Finally... Another Lindy vid...