Why Aim Down Sights Is STILL A Bad Mechanic
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2022
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So apparently talking about ADS is controversial. So you know I had to do it again. This is a response to the previous video: • Why 'Aim Down Sights' ...
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"Do you want to take a shit in your games?"
Yes.
Yes we all do
I would do competitive shitting if you let me
Just look at all the needs mods for Skyrim like iNeeds. Hell, having to manage your colon and bladder is what sold me on Scum. It really didn't help that supporters could occasionally poop out a gun.
then boy is ark the game for you
The long drive at your service, lol.
"When in battle, always represent your enemies as neckbeard soyjacks."-Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Fr
This, but unironically
Frfr
Ackchyually, it should be pronounced "soy-yok."
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You are right dude, ads do suck. I can’t stand it when I’m watching videos only to get two 15 second unskippable ads in a row. Thank you for bringing awareness to this feature.
Edit: Don't worry guys it's a bloody joke, sheesh. Why can't y'all just have fun?
He got us in the first half, not gonna lie.
Bruh the two ads thing is driving me bonkers. Good to see more people taking a stand against evil google.
@@Ghostshadow112 Its needed for YT to pay its creators, there are so many nowadays YT just isnt making that much profit
@@bigfatcrocodile3271 How did you miss the joke this badly
@@chunkytroy There is no joke, a joke requires a punchline, that wasnt funny either since it had no shock factor, how did you not know what a joke is.
I remember a conversation on a gaming forum where someone wanted developers to add more realistic mechanics like involuntarily blinking your eyes and having part of your nose within your field of view, as if it wouldn't simply add another set of blinking eyes on top of your own.
Does that relate to ads or you’re just randomly bringing this up
@@LOKSTED It relates to the broader topic of adding cumbersome mechanics for the sake of realism, and the warped mentality players can have about game mechanics. So yes, it relates to ADS.
@@Lippeth You argue that blinking and nose view are absurd because they already exist with the person playing the game. That doesn't relate to ADS at all since you do not have ADS built in to your person
@@LOKSTED That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm comparing the need some people have for ADS no matter the context with the completely absurd and redundant mechanics of blinking. The commonality is the pursuit of "realism" with no regard for actual functionality.
@@Lippeth You know there's a purpose in aiming down sight right? Gun sights have a function they don't just look cool
I was in army, and always thought that ADS system is representing stance switching in real life, not just meaning HUD mechanism.
based giga korean
Depends on the game design
In some games it is implied that ADS is accurage because you change your stance
In some games it's "magic" that makes you more accurate, because you are both mobile and aim
@@piotrsajuk6435 "in some games it's magic that makes more accurate,because you are both mobile and aim"
are you referring cod mw3 stalker perk/bo2 stock attachment where it gives you no movement penalty while ADS so pretty much fast as jogging while hip firing?
gta 5 online on PS4/PS5/XBOX ONE/XBOX SX/PC also have that type of movement where you go first person camera
and also i still remember that people hate this playstyle with snipers because "tHat's nOt hOw SNiPerS wOrks iN rEal LifE"🤣🤣🤣
yes, but that is not at all the point of the video
Having respawning in games is unrealistic. It should just brick your computer when you die.
Lmao
And when your character dies from an explosion, your computer or console also explodes. Killing you as well.
@@xaptor8685 And when you suffocate your PC or console gets teleported to the bottom of the ocean
@@xaptor8685 also the blast radius whould be the same so if you die to a tactical nuke good fucking luck
Kojima would coom at the thought of implementing that into a game.
This made me think of the Roger Ebert quote on Battlefield Earth. "The director, Roger Christian, has learned from better films that directors sometimes tilt their cameras, but he has not learned why".
This shit happens when things are made for the collection of money, and not for the joy or art of making and enjoying it.
For me it's like this: If a game has a focus on cover mechanics (Far Cry, others I can't remember right now), I like iron sights, but if the game doesn't (Valve games, Doom, Bioshock, etc), I'd rather just point and shoot, or use the scope. One of the reasons I really like CS's gameplay is that the crosshair is always 100% accurate if you're not moving and not dumping your mag.
I’ll be fully honest the only reason I love ADS is because I wanna look down the sight, I just always find it frustrating seeing a gun in a video game with a cool sight and just not being able to use it since all my brain can think is “man if I was holding this thing I would totally look down the site it would be so sick”
Me playing CSGO in a nutshell
@@magmapixel8627 ngl i love ads but csgo with ads would probably suxk
Hey, same.
@@mjacknback8994 thats valorant lol
@@hi_its_jerry the thing with valorant is that its inspired by csgo but also very different from it
28:37 "Hitscan sucks and I dont think any game is improved by its presence"
That's one hell of a take to just drop in there with no further explanation
funny because most of the old school games "skill" weapons are hitscan like quakes rail gun
“Call of duty has one of the easiest sniping on the world”
Also, I think fps should have ADS based off the character you’re playing (and the weapon equipped).
FPS including spec ops or marines have ADS for obvious reasons.
Spartans from HALO or any other futuristic like game don’t really need ADS, due to their advanced equipment and such.
Or characters that don’t know how guns technically work (civilians as example) shouldn’t have ADS to be an option.
I think he meant in PVE.
@@DirtyDanRichards He said this quote in response to a comment about sniping in CoD multiplayer. Even if he did mean pve only, my point still stands that he just said "hitscan sucks" and then didn't elaborate at all
Even tho i read this comment far before he said It, It still Absolutely shocked me xD
The fact It was followed by "CoD has some of the easiest sniping in gaming" when i can snipe people from halfway across the map in Battlefield with anything ranging from a sniper to a handgun, but can't hit a clown on stilts in CoD, definitely added to the shock value.
My argument for ADS, as someone whos loved games with and without it, was stated directly by you in your first vid:
It turns the game from "run AND gun" to "run OR gun", the balance of how long itll take to aim is a big part of the game, and to state that not only should IT not have it, but NO NON SIM GAME should have it is narrowing the scope of what games can be
16:57 Amusing that he has view that "ADS contradicts Titanfalls Movement mechanics", this mentality that there is a "Right" way to play and that using ADS is "Boring" irritates me.
It would be like saying "Calling in a Titan is the wrong way to play; Pilot only by comparison is exciting" then making a massive video about how Titans are ruining the pilot-only experience.
@@soulsurvivor8293 Because it does. Take a couple of minutes to imagine how it'd be to actually be able to properly move around while firing.
The thing is that the pervasiveness of ADS is doing exactly that: limiting the scope as to how shooters can be.
Almost every mainstream FPS is now just run or gun because they all want to be CoD.
I'm just glad that boomer shooters are making a return, not because it's making CoD-like mechanics go away, but because they're widening the scope as to what sort of mechanics and pacing you can have with FPS games.
@@soulsurvivor8293because it DOES lmfao! U cant tell me a titanfall game with shooting mechanics more similar to doom and halo would make it worse then "stop moving tunnel vision lowered sens to get kills"
he literally didn't say no non-sim game should have it, just that they're better suited to not having it. Even clarifies that in this video...
Ads is only a bad mechanic when you implement it badly, it’s like shooting or jumping, that’s why I feel that it’s not a bad mechanic
Exactly just because some games don't implement well or HE doesn't like how it's implemented doesn't mean it's bad.
I miss alt-fire in FPS. It helped spice up a match if you had alt-fire over ADS.
Oh my god yes, alt fire guns are the shit its why half life is one of my favorite games ever
Another reason why games dont need to have ADS. Multiple guns in halo have an alt fire mode.
@@phoevo8898 Not that I disagree, but there are plenty of guns in COD that have alt fire as well.It's not really an either/or.
So you like promethean weapons from halo 4?
@@STNKbone Alt fires in CoD is like a second weapon that shares the same model as another one. True alt-fire is like in games like UT in which you could fire the different modes on the fly or even combine them. The classic example being the plasma rifle that had an orb as the alt-fire, and you could shoot the orb with the primary fire to make it explode mid-air.
I think for me the two games that most clearly demonstrate the efficacy of both the use or lack of ADS in a game are Team Fortress 2 and Insurgency. Both games benefit greatly from the design choice to either include or leave out the feature in very obvious ways.
insurgencies laser sight making hip fire pretty much as accurate as ads is also a pretty cool mechanic
@@BLACKBEARD-117 technically, if I'm not mistaken, you *could* shoot with perfect accuracy (at any distance) in hipfire without the laser sight as well - it would just take a lot of practice... lol
@@lightray405 damn that's sick lol. Might have to start practicing
honestly, ADS could be interesting in TF2, but... none of its guns, with the exception of Sniper's SMG, really... work? with ads?
Most of them just don't make sense, and, besides, tf2 is a cartoony hat simulator, so the realism wouldn't really work anyway
Blood
I'm an indie game developer, I have made games with both ADS and no ADS. The ADS loop is pretty satisfying to a lot of players and I think it is also pretty important to making console shooters more accessible, while not making it seem like aim assist is doing all the work (it changes movement and AIMING speed, allowing for actual aiming with the controller)
It also makes mouse controlled shooters more restricted, which slows down the pace and changes the rhythm from continuous 'move+shoot' to 'sprint, locate, aim, shoot' which is less stressful and probably more sustainable for most people, hence casual
The thing is casual doesn't mean bad and all the comments of the people that FELT more skilled makes it seem that the 'power through skill' fantasy you mention is at play, even though the game isn't actually rewarding what could strictly be considered raw skill. Basically by adding ADS and giving more players the ability to prevail you end up with more people doing better, having a better KD ratio and thus enjoying the game... even though they attribute it to their own skill, it is mostly a pacing issue and it fits a lot of people especially on console
My 2 cents, as you said use with purpose
It's funny as a player I hate ads on controller, and greatly prefer it on mkb. The ability to rapidly adjust my dpi on my mouse gives me the ability to finely tune my ads experience on the fly and build settings for each weapon I use in each game I play (I typically just like a few and don't stray from those). Whereas with controller I feel completely restricted with ads. I already have a less fine tune ability to look around, and suddenly my MOVEMENT and AIM SPEED suddenly completely changes for ads.
Often times Devs don't implement an acceleration feature. (where a small movement is a slower rotation and slamming it to the side is a rapid rotation or even that the positioning of the thumb stick determines and locks the rotation speed, to be fair it wasn't all the viable without something like hal effect control sticks so it wasn't feasible outside dreamcast until now.) The aim speed is often static or has a very slow acceleration that I can not adjust, meaning I have a set speed that's either too fast for micro adjustments and too slow to catch players crossing my line of sight with a lack of movement speed to even compensate for it. Having to manage that with thumb sticks is frustrating.
Then I get doubly penalized as ads is a thing, and now we need to balance that by making hipfire almost worthless. So despite the fact I can track and keep up with my opponent in regular movement I can't utilize that advantage due to most weapons having no accuracy. At that point I just give up on the gunplay entirely and go for a melee centric build or a shotgun that doesn't care but it's the only weapon remaining that isn't overly penalized which means now not only do I feel limited in my physical options of approach, but now I feel limited on my weapon choices.
To give reference to what I feel with controller versus mkb. I feel like with controller I have far better movement control being able to a move a full 360 degrees of movement where as with mouse and keyboard I am limited wasd. So limiting that ability suddenly feels like my primary advantage of playing controller which is having analogue movement and analogue camera controller is taken away to forcibly slow me down into a position that is better suited for digital inputs and micro adjustments that a mouse just does better. For reference I don't play any tactical shooter with a controller on my pc. I play arcade shooters on my pc exclusively with my controller same with any movement based shooter. And games like bungie era halo just feels weird with mkb, like something in the engine is just built for controller, where as 343 halo feels very much like mkb game and the controller just feels bad to use in their games personally.
Admittedly I am probably in minority. I also feel like at this point it's less so that's its satisfying and more so that console players are conditioned for it, as for years there really hasn't been solid alternatives for consoles that were massively popular like there has been for mkb. Mkb has for the majority of it's life span had a game like counter strike where you had an option for not using ads, Then still getting games like cod, where you could play games that were ADS centric. With console, there was so few arcade style shooters and movement based shooters after COD became huge, that there are now gamers that literally don't know anything else. They have played most of the life time with that style of play. It's not that it feels better, it's that it feels familiar. Familiar is good and safe, It doesn't matter if another style of play is better suited to a controller to them it will always feel off because in their mind all shooters should have ADS. It's basic psychology at that point.
my mvp, you have typed my thoughts out in a comment for me, bless you
28:42 Those are fighting words. The doom 2 super shotgun and the half-life magnum are some of the best and most satisfying guns in any game ever.
them's fighting words*
@@BusinessWolf1
I smell some Hylics
@@Matheus-ki9zo well yes but the way I said it is the origianl
I would add quake 3's plasma and titanfall's kraber to the list. Unfortunately kraber doesn't really fit the list because it's mostly used w/quickscope. And for God's sake I wish titanfall 2 had a common iron sights or holographic sight for kraber. Of course Wingman Elite works well, but it doesn't give that kick and a hand held artillery feel.
Marathon Dual Shotgun is the most badass gun in any boomer shooter
Critiquing the over abundance of ADS is no different than critiquing regenerating health or any other game mechanics for that matter. It works in some games, but it's not a net positive.
Hate regeneration
@@FardtilUshid
Depends on how its implemented really
@@redline841 it’s just not implemented well at all in many games. For power fantasy games, it slows you down immensely and encourages the player to “take a break from combat”. Doom doesn’t do that. If you’re low on health, it encourages you stay in the battle and gain back your health through battle.
For more slow tactical games, it’s just as bad. It takes away the realistic part of the game and it takes away player accountability. If you put yourself in situations where you got yourself injured, this should have gameplay significance. The player should not be able to be like it’s just a bullet wound, give me 5 seconds to heal. That’s why Tarkov has an excellent design on their health system. It’s dependent on where you get shot and it requires resources to get injuries fixed.
@@jesspeed That's why I love Doom as a whole, they never implemented health regeneration, they didn't even reset your health at the start of a new level until Doom 3, 2016, and Eternal. With Doom 1 and 2, every point of damage you took was technically permanent (save for medkits of course), and if you died, you got sent back to the start of the level with just the pistol, so playing recklessly had consequences.
i wouldnt say those are the same. far fewer games have regenerating health when they dont need to while there are far MORE games that have ADS for no reason other than to have it
it makes sense in military style games, because no one with a brain fires weapons from the hip.
games like doom and quake don't need it, they're fast paced fantasy style shooters.
it's not a bad mechanic by any means, it's logical for some games, and unnecessary for some others.
That was his point.
@@CoolName5383 but he said in a stupid way he acts like every game with ads is bad
@@moistygg Clearly you didn't finish either of the videos.
@@CoolName5383 that's what get for having a click bait-y in both your videos. People come and shit on the video, then leave.
@@_wayward_494 he even stated in the video he said it'd be stupid to name it something else cause of the yt algorithm
What I don’t understand is how ADS is a “frustrating mechanic.”
Now as an avid D2 player, I need to say some things about what was brought up in this video.
There is only one weapon in the game which relies on ADS to change its function, and that is Duality: a shotgun which changes from a pellet to a slug by aiming down sights. Would it be a better weapon if you could instead choose when to switch the mode on command? Absolutely not. There are a few weapons in Destiny which have that mechanic, and Duality wouldn’t feel as good were that the case. You would basically just be choosing slugs 99% of the time in PvP for the added range and accuracy bonus.
And regarding Hip Fire Grip. This notion that you would rather take something over nothing so it must be the better option over a core game mechanic is… confusing.
In game, Hip Fire Grip isn’t a popular choice at all. Can it be okay in certain niche cases? Maybe? The Last Word is the only thing people actually use HFG for, everything else is more of a gimmick.
Hip firing in D2 can feel marginally better with the addition of HFG, but that does NOT make it an essential part of ANYONE’S loadout.
Hell, even having 100% no bloom hip fire accuracy isn’t even enough to get people to use a weapon with that trait. Look at Dead Man’s Tale, a weapon that is wholly accurate from the hip, has increased rate of fire from the hip, and suffers 0 detractions from using it.
How many people use that weapon nowadays? A few, that just like the aesthetic and unique nature of the gun itself. The ones who like the feeling of being a space cowboy with a futuristic repeater.
Even Tommy’s Matchbook, a pretty powerful auto rifle with the ability to have 0 bloom and 100% accuracy from the hip, sees almost no use in any content, even with Solar reworks.
Having a “bad hip fire” cannot be the problem then in this case, where having this option negated makes the weapon feel somehow worse than your usual option.
I feel that ADS is featured in most games as a sort of feel good thing. You are actively taking time to line up your shot so that you have the best chance of being accurate, and hitting that shot inherently feels good.
Hitting a shot from hip fire, while rarer in most games where you are almost required to aim to be accurate, feels even better. Call of Duty for example sees many high skill players hipfiring a lot of their weapons, from SMGs to ARs to even snipers, and citing an incident where pro players are maximizing their success using a mechanic that is entirely based on their skill alone to rely on getting their kills is overlooking exactly how much thought goes into each engagement.
About movement shooters not needing ADS, I can agree to an extent. In something like DOOM, a movement shooter where your skill is based on your knowledge of controls, your abilities, and your limits, ADS isn’t required. As such, they don’t have it for the most part. It doesn’t make much sense to take the time to aim in for a game where you are meant to feel like a nonstop hellbent blood soaked killing machine.
Let’s take something like Titanfall 2, a little topic of discussion in this and the previous video. The *choice* to stand on a roof with a Kraber getting snipe kills isn’t inherently a bad *choice*. It’s all about your *choice* to do so, and allowing players to have that *choice* is part of what makes TF2’s sandbox so varied, even when a lot of weapons are very much similar in function.
Now by this same vein, you could make the *choice* to run and gun with the Kraber. No sacrifices to your movement ability, no reliance on RNG, just making sure you have the aim good enough to hit your shots while you move as fast as possible. This is a very valid *choice* to make, easily being one of the higher skill ceiling options, but with a much lower skill floor. Your *choice* to do this takes into account the risk that you’re taking, getting closer to the enemy, not having the stability of standing still, and being well within the bounds of your weapon’s intended range.
A harder option, but one that rewards your dedication and skill with satisfying kills while still moving at top speed. Using ADS in this case does not hurt the gameplay in any way, seeing as it is entirely your *choice* to use it.
If I remember correctly, TF2’s Kraber doesn’t even have any bloom to it. It is completely and wholly accurate from the hip, so long as you can line up the shot properly.
Some comments mention ADS being about immersion. This is partially the case for some games, but very much missing the mark for others. Battlefield is an FPS who’s spectacle is based on how invested you can get in the battle. Having ADS in this case is not only a balancing option, but a design choice to make one feel like an actual soldier partaking in a massive battle. Getting that tunnel vision feeling is neat and all, but many high skill players also only use hip fire at closer ranges.
Hip fire in this case feels useful, and exists as a means of getting more efficient kills while moving.
ADS in Battlefield feels more in line with how one would usually feel in battle, using your own marksmanship to hit targets at longer ranges. In this sense, Battlefield can have some “realistic” gunplay.
Battlefield and Call of Duty are similar in the sense that they can both theoretically function just fine without ADS on certain weapons, but it would take away some player agency in most, if not all, player engagements.
I know for a fact that this man isn’t going to go back and read this long ass comment 2 weeks after the video was posted, but this seemed like an argument worth refuting.
Actual thought is put into designing these games, and having a title like “ADS is a bad mechanic” is a terrible way to convey your actual thoughts about the mechanic as a whole. It isn’t a bad mechanic, it just isn’t meant for some games. There aren’t many games out there where I would say it just doesn’t belong outright.
Just so you know, none of the TF2 snipers are accurate from the hip
@@codexstudios Alright, thanks for clearing that up
It actually pretty simple. It makes all games feel the same. We have essentially been playing the same game since COD4. It's basically run, then gun. As an avid Halo player, since CE, I could not get into Destiny. The movement is similar to halo. The sprint served a similar function. But the way the weapons played, made halo type movement and combat options useless. The optimal way to play Destiny is to play it like COD except for the using super powers every so often, almost like borderlands except less funny and chaotic. Im not bad at COD either. I've been playing since Finest Hour, and have tens of thousands of hours in multiplayer from 4 to Cold War, alot of it stomping pubs before SBMM was so strong.
@@korcommander can't relate on that one. While I believe ADS doesn't detract from destiny's game play at all, I still don't use it except for when engaging targets at medium to long range. I tend to stay mobile and just hipfire in that game because I like to play it like halo vs COD.
Hey, you can't forget Skyburner's Oath, that's my favorite weapon in D2.
I fondly remember how much i struggled to even get myself to ADS in the first place in mid 2000's games. Even when I played COD-4 it didn't really register to my mind to ads, I was used to shooting and recoil control from Counter Strike, so the concept of ADS for every weapon was alien to me.
The same thing happened to me, although my FPS experiences were limited to N64 games and Halo. I remember trying the demo for Call of Duty and dying over and over again because I couldn't understand why my bullets didn't register unless I was within spitting distance of an enemy. I had no idea what the purpose of looking down the sights did, and thought it was some weird, restrictive zoom feature, so I never used it. As a result, I never figured out how the shooting mechanics altogether worked, so I eventually gave up on the demo. Playing Call of Duty 2 on my uncle's new 360 finally made it click for me, even though I found hip-firing to still be more satisfying in some of the smaller levels.
You guys and the guys who can't grasp no ads in games were born wrong.
Honestly I don’t really mind ads but it can be absurd like shotguns somehow ads makes the spread tighter. Thats why I like games like insurgency sandstorm where theres hardly a difference between ads and hip-fire. Even though I haven’t watched all of the video Im starting to understand your viewpoint about ads :)
yeah its absurd how when ads in some games the guns has almost no recoil and the bullet spreed while just became tight when spraying your gun maybe people like ads too much because its noob friendly and it requires less skill where as in csgo there is no ads and it requires more skill to control recoil and bullet spread dont became tight when spraying
I mean, shotguns in fps games are absurd anyway, so I don't mind that.
The worst game I've seen for that has got to be Dead Effect 2, using hip fire on a shotgun makes it near impossible to hit your target but going ADS somehow turns it into a sniper rifle. It's honestly ridiculous.
If you look in the view of shotguns for ads then yeah it's dumb how a gun that is supposed to be for close range changes into a mid-range chip damage
One game, one gun. Remington 870, Black Ops 2.
For me it depends on the game. I can take or leave it.
A good example of a game that needs it is battlefield 1 for the immersive experience.
Another game that DOESNT need it was left for dead. Look at how shit back for blood was. They tried to "modernize" the L4D formula and ruined it.
So it just depends for me. I think Cod Is shit and does influence stuff too much. Like B4B.
You give them too much credit, left 4 dead 2 with ADS would be still better than back 4 blood with no ADS.
@@viktorvlasov483 my example was it doesn't need it. But yes that's true B4B is Garbo through and through
@@sangheilicommander1056 Joke is that Left 4 dead 2 did boost your accuracy and reduced recoil when standing still and/or crouching. So the game was realistic and authentic where it did actually matter.
Addendum: First game where I did like ADS was red orchestra 2. They didn't take shortcuts.
@@viktorvlasov483 I'm in different about ADS. It depends on the game. If it's supposed to be an immersive gameplay experience like battlefield. Then I want it. If it's not then I'm fine without it. Probably because I played so much halo.
That's what he said...
ADS does serve as a counterbalance to rapid-fire hitscan weapons, given that outside of the FEAR series you can't dodge bullets like you could normal projectiles
Y'know there's this thing called burst-firing, right?
Idea: remove ADS *_and_* hitscan.
Now we don't need ADS! That was easy! :)
And what about Halo?
@@caramelldansen2204 brilliant
That's why games like Quake and Unreal Tournemant is build on a variety of different weapons, not just hitscan. In Quake III/Quake Live there are two hitscan weapons and they're among the least used in the meta.
I fucking hate how we lost movement flexibility and now shooters (except milsims) are "see enemy, ads, crouch (or don't), wiggle (or don't), shoot". The main thing (firing a gun) became so boring developers had to add grenades, perks, gadgets, gun parts etc. When the whole idea of ppl liking your game revolves around the rush of unlocking shit...
I often wonder how Doom 2016 would have been accepted if the pistol didn't have ADS. Very few of the other weapons do, but the first one you get does. Almost like they knew there would be a knee jerk response to a game without it, so they had to ease you into the game, show you how fun it could be before they started giving you weapons without ADS. I'm sure many people who went on to love it would have dropped it in the first level without that ADS easing. Sad state of affairs really.
It didnt have ads. It had secondary zoom function for the alternate fire.
It didn't have ADS, though. That was a zoom, like in FEAR. ADS means your camera looks through the sights
It had zoom like Halo's pistols (in 1, 2, reach & 4). It's a little different and a much better choice for a lot of games like Doom and Halo and probably way more games like Destiny and Titanfall if they were willing to buck trends. One advantage is, like you mentioned, that you can make it non-universal quite easily without breaking immersion so people aren't aiming down sights on a bloody shotgun. Second it's snappier and doesn't limit base movement in most implementations although I'm aware that some ADS doesn't. Third, when you don't have a zoom function it leaves the button open for alternate fire modes. The list goes on. The Doom Eternal Assault Rifle is another weapon with Zoom and I will take it over being forced to use iron sights for every interaction any day.
@@oliverdowning1543 @Jose Dorsaith @Christian's Meme Factory doom 2016s pistol did have ads but it was identical to the charge shot i believe. it might be an optional thing but it was there
yeah it was the multiplayer pistol and i could be wrong but i think it may have also been in single player as an option in settings
You know for the most part I actually agree with you. I see the issue however with implementation rather than just the idea of ADS. One of the only non tactical or sim shooter games i actually think ADS enhances is Apex Legends. ADS may be a hinderance to movement mechanics in Titanfall but apex is a more methodical game. My evidence for this is any professional Apex footage. To be effective in apex, long range 'poking' encounters benefit from the narrowed field of view and a nice reticle to track opponents at a distance (on account of the large maps with plenty of cover), but when you get into those close or close-medium range gunfights, hipfire is especially useful to focus more on movement and strafing. Sure Cod doesnt have a choice as you ADS 99% of the time. something like Apex is more like 60%-40% ads to hipfire. ADS is ACTUALLY a tactical choice in that game and makes the difference between an intermediate and advanced player. Overall yeah I agree and DOOM Eternal is a perfect example of the potential a shooter could have without things like reloading or ADS but once again if the implementation is right it could prove to be a valuable asset as sometimes you want that good tunnel vision to focus. (Halo was a quintessential part of my childhood so i have plenty of experience with the shooty gaemz)
That's his point exactly. ADS itself isn't the problem by nature, but how and when they're implemented.
It sounds like you agree completely with his point of view.
What's particularly funny to me is that CoD, Medal of Honor and other games going more for realism (historical accuracy in their case, originally) were what established ADS as a thing, and it was just done for the sake of realism. They were games about experiencing the "reality" of WWII (at least for the early 2000s). Meanwhile games that were more focused around pure fun didn't bother. But then the multiplayer started to really catch on in it's own right for... some reason.
@@SwordGuy3924 I really think the dividing line i place vs what the video places is different enough to separate our views. If ADS was a justified mechanic from game to game (which is currently not the case) i don't see issue with it being in most games where the videos would rather relegate it to a niche feature that should remain in mil sims and tactical shooters to my understanding.
@@SwordGuy3924 Then why'd he title the video that? He's full of crap. You and him aren't clever.
@@bannedmann4469 Clickbait titles work.
Aiming down sites is good for thoughtful, strategic military sims. Retical-only is for boomer shooters and fast action fps that doesn’t have a huge focus on realism. It’s not that hard to comprehend. He’s saying that for a game to be good (mostly fun) it doesn’t need every single mechanic that has come before. It limits creativity and the notion that games absolutely HAVE to be a military fps with realistic mechanics is garbage.
I don’t get how people still don’t get it.
This is such insane copium.
This is a really good look at how people instinctively reach for any outlier or dismissal just to protect their state of mind/opinions without even realizing it
Yeah, I've watched the first one and this one in sequence just now and these replies are hilarious.
@@GonziHere indeed
the new "smart scope" on halo infinite kinda ruins a lot of fights imo. it actually does seem to change and improve the reticle and makes guns like the sidekick much better
There’s a very small percentage difference actually, that’s it’s not that much disadvantages or advantages to use it, but is actually best not too for close combat. For longer, due to its decreased sensitivity, it can be slightly better
it doesnt nothing about the gun changes exapt how zoomed in the screen is its jsut easir to hit a target that is larger cause it also lowers sens so it feels liek your moving at the same speed
Bro aim In halo infinite feels god tier, I be playing better in online matches than most shooters
@@soilthestillborn4949 bullet magnetism
@person imo certain guns are too ranged now. the sidekick and ar especially are able to fight much further. the sidekick can often compete with and be better than the commando which is meant to be a ranged gun
Playing Tarkov and using point-fire at close range, and experiencing how fun and intuitive it is, made me realize how ADS is a gameplay mechanic shooters don't need to add by default, but rather should be added when it makes sense. Doom Eternal uses it perfectly, using ads on only certain weapons, purely as a momentary precision shot for a special ability, like a grenade launcher or precision rifle headshot
Dude legit put soyjack as a counter argument lmao
Gets the tards to seethe in the comments and drive up engagement, very effective I'd say
You don't get it bro, standing still while holding both triggers/buttons is a fun mechanich and requires a lot of skill
Luckily you can change that to press once to aim press once(again)to no longer ads
maybe your aim sucks
@@MagnumLoadedTractor that's really unintuitive dude like seriously I like that hip fire mechanics and such but ads is good dude they both are great but the arguments that he used is prettying meh it's more of a history of a ads not a real point as to why there bad plus it's ads more to the game
@@MagnumLoadedTractor ads more how you may as it adds more depth it's good for promoting hip fire and will at the same time giving practical purposes to it
@@rapterslayer tf I was only saying that you can change the controls of a game I am not saying I agree or disagree with this mf
I think 3rd person shooters are guilty of the ads mechanic, some have you enter a gun scope to take out enemies while some just hone in your reticle.
The best ADS has to be GW2, it’s there but good aim is possible without it. Not even sniper classes have major ads in that game
GW2? You're talking plants vs zombies?????
@@necromax13 Yes, the best game ever made
This gane is so underrated. It was so fun when I played it.
Uh... ever played Resident Evil or The Last of Us? ADS is needed for a few reasons, largely ammo conservation.
@@KageAkame that's actually a bad example.
Dude, I played Splatoon 3 for the first time and I see what you mean. Like holy crap, I was forced to switch my tactics and change my perspectives. No scoping isn't so much a grandiose feat but just the norm.
"when someone disagrees with you, mock them"
-Al Capone, probably
lmao at the comments that basically say "ads is good when its less ads". Reminds me of the sprint threads on waypoint when 5 launched, and all the Pro sprinters were RAVING about how sprint was "balanced" in Halo 5.
its just fence sitter behavior. centrists belong on the cross
Halo 5 had a great movement system
You didn't play halo 5 if you think sprint is the best movment option
@@flaming7488 I did, and I think the thrusters and sprint creates a fun movement system
@@araara8605 Thats great but its still not Halo. Its gone now, so if you want ADHD button mashing movement go play Halo 5.
I sat through both videos and my takeaway is that every argument you've made is valid for why ADS is good and ubiquitous.
@@pogers625 I had a fucking stroke trying to read that, learn to use punctuation ffs
Ubicwadis*
@@pogers625 I think I just had a brain anurism trying to comprehend this.
@@pogers625 no, big text needs comas and periods to know where a sentence starts and ends. Ex: "... look at cod doom hard..."
@@pogers625 loll you are rambling about nonsense. spam isn't intelligent
We need an alternate fire renaissance.
27:20 I play a lot of valorant where hip fire is better most of the time, but there are still some uses for ADS. Mainly to take longer range engagement, especially when you're holding down a line of sight. However, I feel like this advantage is only really useful on some guns, mainly snipers and ones with the capabilities of one shot headshot at any range. On other guns the ADS is just not worth it. I feel like on those guns the only reason there is ADS is to cater to the market to make it more accessible to new players.
I also agree that some games doesn't need ADS. Game developers need to seriously consider if adding ADS will benefit the game or not.
I’ve always loved the rare game that does one thing: Makes ADS optional. You can aim with every weapon, but there’s merit to not aiming, and merit to aiming. Sometimes, in the heat of battle, you need to slow down and get a look around. Other times, it’s going gung-ho and you shouldn’t get an accuracy penalty for hip-firing.
Also: That Trolldier word is from TF2, it’s said like Soldier, not deer, so troll-jer.
I feel like trading mobility for accuracy is fair when ads. And vice versa for hip firing. It gives merit to both and a reason to use both when situations benefit them.
Titanfall 2 did it the best imo
Valorant is probably the perfect modern example of this.
@@charlesmartiniii1405 did you even watch the video? It really didnt.
@@s_for_short2400 I'd and I disagree with it. Amazing hip fire and an aim down sights for people that want it. It's the best of both worlds
5:30 is dead on the money. It became standardized for consumers so when a game doesn't have these "essential" features they see the games as defective or archaic just like you said. The only way that ads and features like it become un-standardized is when more games don't include those features but that won't happen purely because it makes the game "less accessible" and the games that do go out of their way to not include those features end up not selling very well besides the rare exception here and there.
solution: have ads and alt fire, but make ads not compulsary at all, like just a cosmetic feature. all it should do is zoom in.
then you just give an option to unbind ads and boom, the normies get ther ads, and the real ones dont have to interact with it at all
@@acethemain7776 redditor moment
Like how people shit on the old Halo games for not having sprint even though you still move at a fine pace and sprint would only make the maps feel needlessly tiny.
@@bansheebarlow2092 huh?
@@AuroraAce. he called people who want ads normies and called people who dont the real ones. Redditors are stereotyped as elitist
Thanks for these videos, they gave me something to think about.
Well as a Battlefield player I do find guns that need less ADSing to be better guns.
The point about the games selling the need for less ads as a boost to be very valid.
Battlefield is getting into borderline milsim territory though
zoomers growing up with COD think games without ADS are defective. I’m no zoomer and 007 Goldeneye is one of my all time favorite games but I won’t play a FPS without ADS anymore
Honestly the implementation of aiming in the Zdoom mod Hideous Destructor is one of the few that make sense. You are a trained professional soldier,so your rifle is at your shoulder and ready to go. Movement obscures your scopes on weapons with scopes,but otherwise you are ready to shoot unless your hands are occupied.
Its also a quasi parody of mil sim games like ARMA.
HD is something else man, filtered me hard
As I've gotten older and older I've realized how much I actually dislike ads and even sprint as a mechanic in most games. I can see the affect it has on the games design fundamentally.
That being said I think it has its place in gaming after all I still play Escape From Tarkov on a regular basis.
Lets take Left 4 Dead and Back 4 Blood It's not a perfect comparison because there are lots of other problems with back 4 blood but its the best I can come up with as a compare and contrast.
In left 4 dead you are encouraged to be looking and shooting in all directions so you can cover and protect not only yourself but your teammates all while moving forward at max speed.
This allows for frenetic frenzied encounters where you are constantly positioning yourself around and away from enemies to keep moving away as you mow down a path in front of you.
Meanwhile in Back 4 Blood due to not only aim down sights but also sprint you are instead forced to hunker down in one spot to ads and clear the way before sprinting up as far as you can before having to stop sprinting ads and hunker down again. You keep doing this over and over again and its just tedious and unfun.
Now I know a lot of that also comes down to a lot of other things like to the level design and the ai itself contributing to this play style but. I think its a fair bet that ads and sprint caused some of the concessions that made the game feel and play as shit as it did.
I like how you took one of the best games of all time, then one of the biggest flops of all time, and literally said "yeah there's lots of stuff but I think running and ADS is the problem". Nah man. Make a mod, remove ADS, boost hip fire precision, remove sprint and add more to the base movement speed. It'll still fucking suck.
@@LoneWanderer905 Ok well think about why the game sucks? It isn't just unfun because the public said so. there are REASONS why it sucks and it comes down to game design decisions some of which is your movement and shooting mechanics.
Yes we can talk about the other two things that I think made that game suck which were the deck building focus and the uninspired ai and enemies.
But as someone who loves l4d for the coop not the versus the main thing that wrecked my enjoyment was the lack of flow in the game which I realized was down to sprint and ads being incompatible with the type of game that was being made.
@@LoneWanderer905 I could never imagine getting so upset over such.. over used, uncreative and crutch mechanics such as sprint and ADS. Let's be real it probably DID contribute to the game being bad, what he said made perfect logical sense. But your only counter argument was "L4D good, B4B bad!".
Agreed 100%, didn’t even need to mention the catastrophe that is trauma damage
I honestly just fucking hate having to hold shift to get anywhere faster, specially when it's the cycle of "sprint, wait for stamina, sprint more", because then the map's design is bad to support that cycle or the game's stamina is too limited; in contrast, games where you just move at the same speed are much better to control and even free the shift key for other things, such as crouching (which I use in Team Fortress 2). Then one could ask "but Sterling, do you not use a toggle?", to which unfortunately many toggles work in many different ways and many of them are downright awful, with things like being too sticky, not being sticky enough, not disabling the toggle if I press shift again (yes, that exists), not disabling if I ADS (hold ADS button and keep sprinting automatically instead), among a myriad of other problems. It's like they just knee-jerk sprinting into games because people can't live without running faster for 5 seconds every 15.
"I like my games like this and anyone who doesn't is just wrong"
-everyone
One of the things that's really jarring at first is getting used to the Gun not being in the center of the screen when you shoot.
i like aim down sights but i agree that it does nerf hipfire unnecessarily and shouldnt have such a big affect
It very much for Balancing reasons But it should be dependent on games after All If milsims Use that it wouldn't be a milsim
@@nothingherezero7182 didnt arma 2 allow you to not ads if you wanted too
@@shadesinsertlastname1631 arma 3 as well.
It is quite ridiculous when you try to shoot someone with a sniper and the bullet flies at a 20 degree angle out of the barrel
@@wumbosaurus9121 yeah, I like how in TF2 and halo you still have good accuracy without ads with a sniper
Imagine Titanfall without ADS. Beaming kids while running around like a crack fiend completely unchained.
Truly sounds like a slice of heaven.
And the coolest part of that would be opening up the left trigger for alt fire. Like imagine the LSTAR having an alt fire that charges up some kind of explosive. So much wasted potential.
yeah then all the unskilled players will leave, kinda like what happened to quake and unreal tournament. just a community of very dedicated players, which raises the skill floor so much that it becomes near impossible for anyone who doesnt have 24 hours to actually engage
@@acethemain7776 Except quake didn't have modes like attrition and bounty hunt, which are designed specifically with casual players in mind. The SMGs are already like that, anyways, so it wouldn't make much of a difference as far as peoples ability to pubstomp.
you can already do it, many players use SMGs and shotguns and they pretty much never ads
@@acethemain7776 Unreal Tournament had a lot of modes for the more casual play.
“Cod is not about playing carefully - it’s about running around like a headless chicken”
lol you made me realize why I like cod. It’s just mindless fun
I’ve always played COD with the class built around ADS speed. And it’s always served me very well.
Recently though I’ve shifted some classes away from ADS speed and more to a hip fire accuracy/sprint to fire speed build… nothing focused, but my monkey brain said “this must be more effective.”
The previous video essay has definitely shifted me to decide to built a dedicated class around sprint to fire/hip fire accuracy- a full turn away from ADS speed… and see how it performs.
How'd it go? Did it do better on some games vs others?
I can accept ADS if it is designed only as a zoom option for guns. I don't want to be obligated to pushing the ADS button just to be more accurate
Or as a way to easily reduce aiming acceleration.
So you don't wanna use a gun like a gun in a fps game?
@@zozzledwolf4653 What's your point? Game isn't always realistic lol
@@GregorianMG His point is you dont want a gun to behave like a gun. You want to remove the mechanic of looking down a sight be it iron or optic that is literally made for the purpose of lining up a firearm for accurate hits.
God forbid your character aims in order to be accurate lol
From the perspective of someone who shoots guns IRL, if I don't have a front sight or optic reticle with which to form a sight picture, I feel "off." From a lore perspective, the HUD reticle makes sense to me for a spartan considering eye pieces linked to cameras are so standard in the UNSC that the magnum in CE has a camera in place of a visible front sight. Then again I play the campaigns and read the books, so I care more about consistency between games, lore accuracy, and ballistic realism than how a weapon's characteristics affect multiplayer.
Nobody cares about lore
@@citizen3000 Speak for yourself.
@@DM_2145 the idea that game design should be determined by lore is absolutely hilarious. I will never, ever understand this obsession with lore.
“Ballistic realism” in a fucking video game, I’m dying over here
@@citizen3000 sensitive fella ain't ya? Have some doritos and whine about your game some more while telling us how much you're laughing, as you complain in a reply.
One thing I hate about ads in most games is how often it FORCES you to use it by killing your accuracy whenever you don't use it. I'd be fine if ads just zoomed you in on your crosshair so you could see better for most games and if not being ads didn't have such a penalty on your accuracy and especially bloom DEAR GOD BLOOM.
You should've brought up doom 2016's multiplayer, it's great and it Integrates the alt fire is also the zoom button feature like you said, with the sniper having a much stronger shot when zoomed in while still being able to be hipfired for considerable damage. And the burst rifle having a more accurate shot with less damage dropoff when zoomed but still being completely viable when unzoomed. A lot of the guns in the game don't have a zoom or ads feature but ones that do still make you think on whether it's worth it or not, depending on the situation.
One concurrent argument I’ll make is that ADS is a great feature if your goal is to disempower the player.
It works great in Resident Evil 4, The Last of Us, Squad, etc.
I think that’s why it worked well in CoD, up until around MW2. The design and aesthetic of those games used disempowerment heavily. Go play CoD 2 on veteran difficulty. The core aesthetic is not power fantasy.
This is a perfect explanation. In Halo you play as a superpowered 7 foot tall Spartan in a giant suit of armor, but in the earlier WW2 cod games, you are just another random soldier that no one gives a shit about.
Could u explain the disempowerment ? I don't think I quite understand what you're saying.
@@danialyousaf6456 ads limits your options while you use it, you're very vulnerable in the situations you use it in but it makes a decent risk for reward system where you holdback on abilities like throwing grenades or moving faster for the advantage of better accuracy
@@Sing_LoveWRS ok
@@danialyousaf6456 In RE4, unlike the later titles you could only shoot while standing still. This made you extremely vulnerable as most of your enemies were either melee, or fired (relatively) slow moving projectiles that you could dodge if you moved. Pulling out your gun just to aim required you as the player to stand still and make a tactical decision based on your placement relative to threat, the environment, and limited resources if you should even shoot. Enemies had zones (head, leg, etc) you could shoot that would stun them in various ways which you could do a follow-up melee attack that rewarded the player by using less ammo, and could possibly be an AOE giving you more space, hit multiple enemies, and it could interrupt an enemy attack moments before you got hit. Aiming to make these shots took time (risk/reward) or if you thought you had the resources you could mag dump-but that could result in you not having enough ammo later. All of these gameplay decisions were very rewarding to the player because you KNEW standing still to line up the shot was always such a large risk of getting hit by an enemy. As a new player, you couldn't judge the amount of time, spacing, or resources required to make these decisions (when/where to shoot) based on your limited experience with the game, as a result you were punished and really felt disempowered; but by the end you "got good" and that feeling of disempowerment really turns into a feeling of genuine mastery. If you could move while aiming (like in RE6) you felt much more in control of the situations, (ie, empowered) and your decision to shoot/not shoot was less impactful. Resident Evil 4 is a 10/10 game, go play it. Leon is a total chad who turns down bonking the president's daughter.
I think that this is not only ADS is shooters. A lot of game studios decide to leave out their product identity to just include mechanics which are currently popular therefore creating the same games...
I like your ideas and a lot of the points in the other video are really good food for thought 👌
The only ADS I liked was an iron sights mod for Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield that would bring up blurry-ish iron sites to simulate focus. It made sense in that game where you had to carefully move through rooms and shoot with pinpoint accuracy.
It seems some people have confused "being able to do everything at any given point" with "only being able to do one thing at a time."
the fact these two things are so far apart yet so closely confused by game devs, just wow. or how.
exactly wtf if you don't like ADS then don't ADS? what's the problem?
Shredded Nerd has managed to articulate what annoys me about modern military shooters. Playing Halo infinite's felt really great in comparison. I couldn't quite figure out why, but how it treats Ads is a big part of it.
He's also managed to illustrate what's wrong with CZcamsrs in general. Continuing a long line online BS.
Well, here's a general truth for Halo Infinite:
Aiming down the sights and sprinting put you at a heavy disadvantage, full stop.
yeah, i guess it is, i never really thought too much about ads, and your video really changed my perspective, good job.
Dirty Bomb had ADS, but it was pretty much just a zoom in, hip fire was almost as precise and ads was almost as fast as hip fire, so you ended up never using ads, snipers were the only exception, I think there were one or two semi auto snipers with excellent hipfire, that shit was fun.
I do think the immersion/feel is a pretty important game mechanic that ADS can provide, even if it doesnt physically change a lot within a game. Player-side gamefeel is just something that is hard to quantify.
Boy I love how being a fan of Bungie’s Halo games has lead to so much vitriol over a shit mechanic that was introduced for invading fans. Imagine going to bitching that you don’t like Monopoly because it isn’t like Trouble so you bitch to the creators of Monopoly until they change it and then talk shit to the people that already like Monopoly.
Lol. My older sister calls me that name all the time as a joke, glad to see I'm not alone. (My name is Gabe)
I actually like the idea of having less ads in fast passed games, or at least remove the additional state bonuses on ads. I play a game called up gun, which is an fps where you get upgrades as the game progresses. One particular upgrade is being able to ads by your weapon, and I never used it. As it didn't give any state bonuses (and didn't slow you as well) and only gave you a slight zoom, I never used it and it felt way better using hip fire than ads. The ads encouraged a campy style of game which was effective at times, but not as fun as run and gunning in the game.
(I posted this in the other video but I might as well post it here)
Just remembering how Half-Life Alyx's enemies had to be dumbed and slowed down so players who weren't into games with ADS wouldn't rage quit...
Making a game accessible can be a double edged sword but you can't just assume thats the only reason they were tweaked sometimes its an engine limitation or other factors assuming "bad players made them dumb the ai down" makes you come off as a narrow minded asshole for a lack of better words. Heres another thing half lifes ai was never "advanced" at all in the base games largely all they did on the higher difficulties was make them have more hp and do more damage and healing items and energy for the hev suit pickups were all reduced case and point half life 1 all healing stations and energy stations only gave 25 back. Half life by all accounts is a linear game on most fronts that had a positive and negative effect on game development as a whole such as being too linear and forcing you into a fixed path thus reducing map creativity i would cite more examples but your dismissive tone in your comment makes me not want to try any further considering you really don't seem like you know what your talking about when you bring up half life.
But that’s vr dude
Overall I agree with your points, ads isn't needed a lot of the time. Though I did find it a bit weird that you think you're not punished for camping in Titanfall, because in my experience sitting in one place is the absolute quickest way to get rushed down and die. Maybe that's just my experience, but that point just didn't really hit for me. But overall a great video!
Camping is titanfall is the fastest way to die.
Yeah, when he mentioned camping with a Kraber I was reminded of how many many times I've used holo pilot and alternator to kick the shit out of people who' don't understand that when you sit still in titanfall, I'm gonna bamboozle your shit so fast you won't even know what happened
Yeah, sitting still tends to lead to a very quick death via smg
I will say this situation seems very similar to the quest marker issue in a lot of RPG games where they can be used to help with a game's design but they are usually added as a weird gameplay bandaid that can feel shallow when overused. It seems like developers love to stick in mechanics as bandaids rather than considering if they really add to a particular game.
I think it depends on the game, we take ads as a golden standard but I do agree that alot of arcade shooters would be better off without ads
too many games try to be arcede tacticool shooters
and the end result is trash
I think the style of game is going to influence whether or not ads will be added as well. When it comes to super fast paced movement shooters, I don't think ads is always required and can be just as fun and skillful.
In games like CoD and Destiny, it is nice to have ADS but there's definitely weapons you could build and pair with skills/armor that'll turn you into a hip fire monster. This same mindset can actually apply to builds in Escape From Tarkov as well and is insanely accurate in close to mid range.
I've watched both of those videos and I've also played many old games without ads and many new games with it. I must say that I don't care if game has ads or it doesn't. I don't see any problem in both because ads is useful game mechanic and I can aim succesfully without it in lots of situations. It also doesn't affect my typical gameplay speed and I am very very quick player. You just have to learn how to use it with your gaming style.
I believe the idea is more that the presence of ADS encourages or discourages certain gameplay.
For example, in Doom, the game doesn't have ADS (aside from like, 1-2 sniper like weapons) because it wants the player constantly moving around and multitasking. As a result, the player is more likely to move around more since they don't have ADS as a crutch.
So it might be better for a game like Titanfall to consider dropping ADS all together for that reason
its just more fun if a game does not restrict your movement!
@@FraserSouris Titanfall is perfectly fine with ADS, it doesn't restrict movement unless you are on the ground like an idiot, you should always be on walls or in the air
@@skipperdipper5186 Unless you have played a build of the game that allows for accurate aiming without ADS, you have no way of knowing whether or not movement is hindered by its inclusion when compared to a hypothetical version of the game where the main focus is movement
@@skipperdipper5186 Yeah. With Titanfall, the game already encourages movement as usually the best option anyway. ADS feels more like "an option you have and can use if you feel the situation calls for it" rather than a crutch or necessity like in other shooters.
i got back into battlefield recently and while I love it and I think ADS is important to the gun customization element of the game, it definitely felt strange to me that such an otherwise fast paced game slows down during actual gun encounters because of ADS. Though I guess your enemies in battlefield are usually a bit further away which makes ADS more necessary.
As he sayed. Not all games should have and not all games shouldn't have . In bf it's works because bf is a Giant arcade shooter sandbox and whit graphics other visual design that's makes it feel emersive. And I'm not hating on bf I love bf it's my fav fps series.and I think ads works there.
If I'm playing battlefield 1 and I can't ads then that doesn't just speed up the gameplay but also makes the game less realistic. If I was fighting in WW1 and couldn't ADS I'd be completely screwed because ADS lets you more accurately fire a weapon.
@@hailsithis1401 Battlefield has never been realistic. It's not a military sim. We're talking about a game series that found mainstream success because people were ejecting from their jets, shooting another jet with a rocket launcher, and getting back into their own jet. Not to mention all the protytpe weapons in Battlefield 1 that are completely unrealistic to the era. Unless you're developing a sim, I don't think realism should matter at all if it comes at the expense of fun
@@yuvalgabay1023 I agree with you, just after playing Halo which was a relatively fast paced game without ADS, and R6 which was a slow paced game that I thought definetly required ADS, it felt weird at first when i got back into battlefield that at times the game feels a lot faster than Halo but when it comes to actually firing at people you have to slow down for ADS. I think the sheer size of Battlefield maps mean that it pretty much needs the feature though
"The before times" 😂 that had me rolling
As a Halo player I found it annoying in other fps to ads to hit the target because hip fire was so innacurate.
28:00 man spent all of 5 minutes on my comment alone, god damn bro. The funny thing is I agree with you this time. The other video seemed like a direct attack on the mechanic in all of its non-simulation implementations, something you noticed I had an issue with. This one talks about you not wanting every single game in the industry to use it, and I can agree with that. Just because I like how one game implements a mechanic, doesn't mean every game should copy and paste it. At least we agree CoD's snipers are complete bullshit.
How are CoD's snipers complete bullshit? I can only agree with you on Black Ops IV pre-nerf.
@@Kyrnyx Because 1 hit gun bad same reason the Kraber was nerfed in Apex people just hate fun or smth
I don't understand what the issue with it is in Titanfall cause it doesn't really detract from the pace of the game hipfire is strong on a lot of guns it actually is a legit tactical choice to do it or ADS cause they both serve different purposes hipfire for close to mid-range fighting while maintaining control of movement and ADS for long range beaming. Hipfire is admittedly dominant in Titanfall but I think it was just a result of the movement being taken a lot further than the devs expected if you look at demo gameplay trailers for Titanfall you can see it's not got bhopping or slide hopping or insane techs going on and it's played quite a bit slower, the titans also slow down the pace of the game for the pilots quite a bit which is something that could encourage more slower play if you dont have a titan. I think they made gunplay forgiving in the Titanfall games because of how much unreadable the movement really was to newer players but it ended up having an opposite effect of just further empowering the dedicated players
in Titanfall you need to do it quickly snapping to targets in between fast precise movements even if someone is using a CAR they will use a mix of hipfire and ADS. even more so in Apex with its more challenging gunplay like imagine if the game was just all hipfire or the Halo smart scope thing it would be boring the meta of Apex is interesting imo because each guns has different strengths and weaknesses a lot like an arena shooter actually. I suppose it could be done in a more old school way in Apex but it would be such a different game, id still like to see something like it tried for ltms maybe interesting
The CAR is a hipfire beast while pretty nice at range while the R301 has a pretty nice hipfire but an absolute beast when you ADS and get shots on people at mid-long range. Flatline is good damage but harder to control, Havoc hits hard and nice control but has a spin up time that needs a hop up to bypass. The Mastiff spread tightens a lot with ADS and the PK and Triple Take have the chokes, the different scopes and sights, attachments that effect weapon handling, and so much more like Seer's passive tied to ADS (fuckin OP respawn pls nerf) I feel like all this is only possible with the ADS mechanics as they are I do agree or at least empathize and understand a lot of Shredded's criticisms but idk... I do really like how he isn't afraid to come out with an actual hot take tho
@j4k8 Yeah. Seems like nobody understands balancing beyond TTK anymore. Completely ignore the fact that bolt actions have a long rechamber which provides more than enough time to secure the kill if the sniper misses.
It's so funny watching CoD players use the "quickscoping is exploitation of the aim assist" excuse. I'm pretty sure it functions like - oh I don't know - *every other gun in the game.*
Yeah quickscoping is a bit ridiculous for an infinite range gun and I think that should be a slug shotgun thing while snipers have ~500ms ADS in a ~200ms TTK game, but when there's guns like the AS VAL in MW2019 that delete in 130ms - without any headshots by the way - and everyone chooses to bitch about the KAR98K/SPR-208; it just makes me wanna make fun of them for the incredible level of ignorance. I saw that slug shotguns in Battlefield 2042 can't even one-shot to upper torso even at point blank and I just wanted to throw up in my mouth.
I agree with Shredded on most cases. The ADS argument is a big one for me because you can clearly tell it was shoehorned in to keep simpletons happy on Halo Infinite. It does fuck all on guns like the Assault Rifle and takes up a button that could be reserved for an alternate fire mode. I like the concept of limiting player capability, but there's a time and place for it.
Warframe has a sprint button but there's no point for it because everyone toggles it on anyways and it doesn't really add to anything. It'd be better if it was just tied to max stick input that way you could walk if you're doing a Spy mission or something that requires stealth. If anything, the existence of a sprint button in Warframe tends to get in the way as opposed to just being default. I'll go to slide but instead just crouch and eat tons of damage in a Survival mission where it's actually impossible to do any form of stealth outside of using Loki for Invisibility.
Also, if the Kraber was nerfed; I've truly lost faith in FPS games. That is a meme gun at best.
@@Kyrnyx
Actually the aim assist exploit is probably a blessing in a way. If CoD and the console market embraced gyro controls as an option, quickscoping would be even more nightmarish since it is just showing how snipers are railguns at thay point
@@Lin_Eileen
In Titanfall you can respawn unless you are playing the sweatfest one life mode. In Apex you ONLY get one life, so everyone gets giga filtered
I few things I'd like to comment on:
1. I think ADS or ADS esque features can work in games like Resident Evil 4 or Zombie Army, I consider it a tactical decision in those games, since it slows you down.
2. People like to think a game with ads is good even if it has no point. Serious Sam 3 has ads for the pistol and assault rifle, it does nothing, no increased accuracy, no slowed down speed, nothing.
3. Speaking of Serious Sam, I'd like to use it to address the aim assist argument. I play games almost exclusively on console, I play Serious Sam without aim assist, I barely use the aim down sights and I play the game perfectly fine.
4. A Father Ted clip, this man has good taste in sitcoms.
5. I don't see how ads adds "skill" to a game. In Killing Floor 2, I use the ads to lock onto enemies, is that skill?
ADS works as a disempowerment mechanic in games like RE4.
Also in Rise Of The Triad 2013, ADS and reloading mechanics are there as a joke. It does nothing, your aim and movement speed are still the same, and your guns have unlimited ammo that don't need reloading yet Interceptor choose to implement to troll players who are too used to these mechanics
@@Jayalen thats actually really fuckin funny, bro said "COD reload and you die"
One of the reasons I love Resident Evil 7 is the lack of ADS. The gameplay is just so refined and good!
I think ads is like a jump button, sometimes, you don't even need it, but every game should have.
I feel that if ADS/zoom is integrated into a game, it should be integrated similar to halo 5/infinite. Doesn't restrict base movement, doesn't increase the range of your weapon too significantly (with exceptions being scoped and melee weapons) and does not punish gameplay for not utilizing ADS at all (within reason, you aren't likely to win a sniper duel at long range if you don't ADS while your opponent does).
Obviously, whatever people think, it's all down to personal preference, some people like certain things, and that's fine
Edit: yes, I understand that shredded need covered the topic, but I'm going a bit more in depth into why it works a bit better than some others out there
If you don't need to use ads, why have it there? It's bad game design to have a feature that doesn't impact the game, and that was his point.
@@RoachCutscenes I didn't say it doesn't change gameplay, I never meant to imply it either. I simply said that the ADS of infinite/5 works really well because you aren't forced to use it to be viable in combat
@@armstronggaming8566 I'm personally in the camp of it shouldn't be integrated into a game like Halo 5 at all, but I just wanted to say you're valid.
The whole "all or nothing" argument being used against you with the game mechanic is fundamentally flawed and just plain silly. I'm a little sad it was used in the video
uh halo 5 had wepon bloom when not ads
@@frazzledapplesvr124 and weapons also have (exactly the same) bloom when using ADS
What was your point exactly?
I agree.
You know, when I practiced the Wingman on Apex Legends I always got super annoyed at how much the gun model takes up in the centre of the screen.
And then I noticed that a of bunch games have ADS weapons where you
barely see your target if you aim a little higher. I think that’s another con for ADS. ADS can not only tunnel-vision your FoV but the ADS gun model also has the potential to hide a considerable portion of view from the player and thus blocking your sight.
I think that's an intentional balancing element a lot of the time. While aiming, you're easier to flank.
@@mrvenom88 I never actually thought about that actually but it makes sense
So. Casual shooter fans will complain when a game doesn't have ADS because 'muh realism' but they're still okay with 9mm having the impact of a bee sting, shotguns having the range of a sledgehammer and bullets somehow teleporting from magazine to magazine?
I like ADS and if I'm being honest it is mostly for the pretty animations and gun look cool. I definitely prefer it to the zoom in thing Halo did, even though it makes more sense in context. I like it so much that I want them in my 3rd person shooters, like in some of those Tom Clancy games. But I do agree, we need more games like Doom that don't do it.
I get your point🤚. Basically, we need to be careful about not letting every FPS becoming COD. The problem is COD, due to its success, it's making other games copy its style making the FPS genre as a whole feel less diverse and more boring, more of the same stuff and making it feel forced instead of a needed feature. Of course, in this case, we are talking about the ADS aspect of COD or any other games with big influence.
cod now sucks btw
@@gumidumi4604 does it? No one wants to play Apex or Halo with me🥲. My bros only play Warzone.
@@gumidumi4604 CoD always sucked.
exactly, imagine if every shooter had to be like DOOM.
@@ananon5771 They tried in the 90s with the DOOM clones.
Yeah, I agree with the points you made here. I also think one of the common points brought up in some of the replies, notably the idea that ADS is an "evolved" mechanic and that games that lack it are therefore inherently worse, is an attitude prevalent in respect to a lot of other gameplay features and mechanics in other genres aside from FPS. The implication that older games without ADS were solely designed that way out of ignorance or limitations on the part of the developer is clearly not true, otherwise they would have completely disappeared as soon as ADS became a thing.
It's a pretty common attitude in the RPG and strategy genres with stuff like turn based combat or real-time-with-pause combat, if you'll excuse the tangent. A good recent-ish example where this debate reared its head in the RPG genre was the Final Fantasy 7 remake, and also rumours surrounding the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic remake. Those games originally used turn based, and RTWP combat. Why? Because it's a combat system that allows for a high degree of strategic play when controlling multiple characters. You can't make a game like that fully real-time without compromising the player's ability to micromanage their party, and as a result of that any game that takes a more real-time action-orientated approach will inevitably reduce that aspect of its gameplay. I'd argue that is an even more significant gameplay divergence than adding ADS to Halo, yet the prevailing attitude towards those games, even from fans, is that the combat needs to be made more action based in the remakes because the combat systems in the originals were "dated", "bad", "archaic" or some other vaguery.
I know this video is about ADS specifically, but I think you've stepped in something there that actually pervades most of gaming. It's an attitude amongst gamers that in my opinion is one of the biggest culprits behind the homogenization of games in _every_ genre.
Also liked just for the Father Ted reference.
Funny, if Final Fantasy 7 Remake was made to please _some_ of it's "fans", it would be another Medieval game with standard Medieval tropes, something that for a new audience would feel another brick in the wall that is 1-5 +9, 11, 14 and now 16 (ignoring Tactics for the moment).
Noting wrong with Medieval itself, but Final Fantasy has been stuck there for over half of the numbered entries, we've only had 2 sci-fis: 6 (yes steam punk counts as sci-fi), and 13 (save for yourself the comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis, it was _never_ funny, not to mention we traded content on Halo Infinite for "aN oPeN wUrLd" that ended up creating a whole new mess), 15 is it's own beast, even if you hate the "too much like real life", it's ONE title, of SIXTEEN. And I went on this tangent because we apparently neede to go back to classics. Fuck post-apocalypse, fuck alternative history, fuck exploring new stuff and correcting course on _actual issues_ because Final Fantasy is Medieval because *NOSTALGIA* demands it to be Medieval.
Same for the gameplay, I've seen far, _FAR_ more people demanding a "return to form" aka Cancer Ball Z Quest un-refined, little to no QoL features and old "classic" story (like blaming the player for stuff the game forces them to do, uhmm, wouldn't that be _bad linearity_, hell no, because HEIL TORIYAMA apparently...) cliches that make Cancer Ball Z Quest 11 feel like a game that is over thirty years old a la Duke Nukem Forever.
I'm not saying turn-based games are outdated, I'm saying: "If fetish RPGMaker games feel both more polished and better written than whatever the hell is Generic RPG #1561969919496, you've already lost without even starting".
Overwatch and TF2
@@JuanLeon-oe6xe ff7 is sci fi tho?
@@Azure9577 Yes... and no...
Barring some stuff that is unsure of being sci-fi or fantasy (SOLDIER, materia) 7 pretty much matches real life, at least I would guess a point betwen the Moon landing and 9/11.
Granted, I'm using 15 as a reference, which falls on a post-smartphone pre-pandemic period; I'm also taking the early environmentalist message, (80's to early 10's?)
@@JuanLeon-oe6xe hmmm
Haven't watched both the vids yet, but if you REALLY want to just absolutely break your brain on all this ADS stuff, try the classic doom mod "Hideous Destructor", a tactical-shooter adaptation for doom where you need to carefully clear rooms full of demons with believable character limitations and more advanced equipment. There is no ADS, but there also is no "hip-fire" or "crosshair". Instead, your marine adopts a state of "High-Ready" wherever possible, centering your weapon in the lower middle of the screen just like in the original game, but planting a small "Sight-picture" sprite in the middle of your screen, representing your ironsights. They bob around as you walk as though you're ADSing, but don't require a button press or hold to maintain. I like this system because it means the ADS in Hideous Destructor doesn't restrict your movement at all, but rather your movement restricts your ADS; you get the clearest sight picture remaining still, it bobs around a bit when you walk, it jumps around more and very occasionally disappears as you jog, and if you hold the sprint key (Hid Des distincts between walking pace, jogging pace, and sprinting pace), your weapon lowers and your sight picture is completely gone. You have the believability of needing to adopt a stable posture and use your weapon's targeting and sighting implements to truly get the best shot with the freedom to move around exactly as you need to, and just because your accuracy is degraded doesn't mean you can't learn to use your weapon effectively while moving around.
After playing ultrakill for few hours my right click's only use is to toss shit like granades and coins into the air, so when the gun commits ads after my right click click it's just sad.
"do you want to take a shit in your game"
yes
I've watched both of these videos through. I like the points you've made, and they certainly made me rethink my perspective on the topic. Having played both old school shooters as well as newer ones, I'd say that I agree with you. You've encouraged me to go back to some of the games I used to play like Halo or DOOM. Thank you. :)
P.S
I'm partial to ADS myself so my opinion on this could be a bit bias, but i try to keep an open mind.
I would love to see your take on VR shooters!
what are you expecting him to say? "aim down sights is the worst thing ever in vr, why is it even a thing"
@@ruimario.productions most vr fps don't have lasers or crosshairs, you've to aim for range boyo
@@grundierungtaglich6241 i was being sarcastic because aimdown sights is pretty much a must have in vr shooters
Ultimately, aim down sights is a tool for a developer when balancing a game's sandbox. Like any specific tool it isn't inherently bad or good on its own; its value is based on the context it is used in. You don't use a Philips head screwdriver for every screw, and while you can use a flat-head screwdriver on screws designed for a Phillips head, you won't get the best results and will probably damage the screw a bit. The same broad concept applies to game mechanics like ADS. The issue isn't the mechanic itself but the overuse of it in places where it isn't as applicable. That doesn't mean ADS is only applicable to mil-sim games though.
Call of Duty in its later years may be an example of ADS going against a game's design with advanced mobility conflicting with it or extreme weapon customisation lessening the mechanic's intended effect but, early on, Call of Duty's use of it was a perfect example of how it can facilitate a unique gameplay experience compared to other games and it popularised the mechanic because of that.
In a game like early Call of Duty titles, ADS time paired with other mechanics ensures that each weapon class encourages a specific gameplay style with benefits and penalties, which adds an element of tactics and player agency to gameplay as you choose the right weapon for the right objective, location, counter play to another's tactics or just for the sake of playing the game at the pace you'd prefer to play. An LMG is usually very accurate once in ADS and has a fast rate of fire, but slow movement speed, wide hip-fire spread, and a long ADS time ensures it can't beat an SMG at close to medium range if you're running and gunning, which pushes you towards holding down objectives and sightlines while stationary, which is the LMG's purpose. Meanwhile, shotguns allow you to move quickly and you can hip-fire to get kills at close range far quicker than an SMG thanks to a wide pellet spread, but at medium range you won't beat an SMG or an LMG holding down an objective as you now need to ADS to make your weapon effective, can no longer get one-shot kills, and can't fire as quickly as they can even if you land all your shots. These design choices not only create far more distinct play styles with entirely different pacing and all within the one game, but also force you to commit to those play styles for them to be effective, which makes weapon choice a far more important decision. It sacrifices a lot of the more spontaneous elements of gameplay found in things like Halo with less decisions being made during gameplay itself rather than in the class menu, but it isn't trying to be like Halo.
The issue isn't that things like ADS and sprint are at their best in mil-sims and dumb everything else down; those mechanics just lead to an experience focused on something else, and while they can lead to more casual experiences they don't have to and the dumbing down of game design is part of a far larger issue with the industry as a whole that's for a different discussion. The issue with these mechanics specifically is that too many game use them and to do so they inherently have to be designed similarly to every other game that uses them, which leads to less unique experiences.
19:30 the beanbag shotgun in swat 4 pvp isn't a crutch. you get a bunch of points for your team if you arrest someone with it, but you have to be careful not to kill them by accident, because if you do, you only get one point for your team.
funny that people who tried to say that it is a skill issue are revealing that they themselves have a skill issue in games without ads lmao
Fr, I don't understand how do not wanting to depend on a aim assisted laser is a "skill issue"
@@hospuk1714 more things to do means it requires more skill. with ads you have to know when you should hipfire and when you should aim. without ads, you see someone at any range, possibly find a bit of cover, shoot and crouch. as for the aim assist, it is only for console players to help them against pc players who have more versatility with aiming and looking around
i still like how hideous destructor handles its aiming mechanics. would be interesting to see you look at how it handles it and give your thoughts.
Only thing i dont like about ADS is the lack of accuracy without it. For instance in cp2077 i cant fire my malorian arms 3516 from the hip and use its power weapon abilities because the bullets have a crazy random spread which you have to get lucky with. I just have to always use ads and use it only as a tech weapon
It's crazy how people act when you have an actual unpopular opinion; and not some dumb ass reddit thread stating the obvious masquerading as so.
Personally, I agree with your opinion; and you articulated it in a way that I couldn't.
With that being said, all those comments remind me of those people who go "We need a new game with different mechanics!"
And then shout down any idea of a game that isn't a clone of whatever is popular at the time.
He doesn’t have an opinion, he is aware of a fact.
ADS is a disempowerment mechanic.
@@deriznohappehquite this is just fundamentally fascinating
It's like saying having a jump button is an issue, it really depends on how it's implemented and where it's used. Though frankly I'm just getting tired of a bunch of gamers trying to spread "facts" about game design when they have no idea what they're talking about.
@@SherrifOfNottingham A Jump button would be an issue in games like Gears of War and Resident Evil 4. there are many games that do not include a jump button.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for video game players to talk about mechanics like ADS any more so than movie watchers to talk about the dolly zoom.
Lmao at the people who think ADS is about skill. Shooters existed forever without it, how the hell are much faster games with more precise aiming not also skill based
ADS is all about reducing the player skill needed to hit an opponent.
In ADS games, you cannot get shot by someone who is also moving. This means all of your targets will either be effectively stationary or unable to shoot back.
By taking away the player’s ability to move and shoot at the same time, ADS eliminates the need to multitask.
@@deriznohappehquite or y'know, that's how real guns work? You aim down your sights for a more accurate shot. Plenty of ads games come at a price of slowing down to ads as well as losing peripheral vision.
@@lumbagoboi1649 I’m aware how real guns work. Video games are not real life.
From a gameplay POV, Slowing down to get an accurate shot is the whole point. It means that you don’t need to worry about shooting and moving at the same time, or worry about moving targets shooting back at you. This reduces the mental effort required to play the game.
A “gun down” sprint mechanic further separates these two modes, shooting vs moving.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing, IMO, but it’s obviously easier to handle than being expected to move and shoot at the same time.
@@lumbagoboi1649
Experiencied shooters can hit a human size target at ~30 meters by just pointing their gun.
In most games you fight at those distances and for most of the encounters, you need to ADS
@@deriznohappehquite What if the game in question is trying to be more like real life as far as guns are concerned? (Like Red Orchestra, Hell Let Loose, Squad) I agree they shouldn't be in every game but it's really essential in more realistic shooters or COD where it's been around from the start and is even been implemented into the balancing.
ADS could be useful outside of multiplayer, like increasing intimidation on unarmed NPCs.
I actually do agree to most cases. ADS sometimes just feels trivial in most games. Best examples that I can think of ADS being used best is something like Metro Exodus. It's not simply just zooming in, it's because in that game ammo is precious and you gotta make every shot count. The aim mechanic I wish to see more often is Simple Iron Sight, that zooms in a little with a focused handle on the weapon but not jam a sight up to your face. Think of how it works in SW: Battlefront 2.