Tillotson 212 versus Predator - Best 212 cc engine for performance mods?
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2020
- So what is the best engine to build up for a 212cc class engine, the predator or the tillotson 212r race engine (MKII)? The Ducar 212 is also a big competitor but between the predator which is cheap and easy to come by, and the strength of the Tillotson, I'm pitting Tillotson 212r versus Predator 212 non hemi!
I've spent a couple months testing the 212r MKII from Tillotson out, side by side with a Predator 212cc engine on the dyno, racing go kart, and mini bike. I sought to make sure I had a stock specification Tilly 212 to the best of ability, and I'm finally, after all this time, getting this video up, breakdown on the engines has begun, and I ordered a lot of performance mods and parts such as stage 1, billet rod, flywheel, springs stage 1 intake and exhaust and more!
I have also tested the Tillotson 212e engine side by side with the predator Hemi engine, the predator hemi versus non-hemi engine, and a few others such as the hisun from coleman mini bikes and the lifan 212 from mega moto mini bikes. The Tillotson 212 engine has 2 platforms, the r and the e. The Tillotson 212e is compared to the Ducar 212 hemi in a later video. Top speed on all engines is very impressive, but the predators are definitely far behind the purpose built race engines.
I like the cheap, biggest best bang for the buck, in case you've checked out my videos so far, you'll know I'm looking for the best bang for the buck! If you're strapped on cash, but want a performance build and see what mods cost the least and get the most for your engine, subscribe today!
Thanks for checking out my video, and I hope you have a great day!
-Me - Auta a dopravní prostředky
The Tillotson 212 engine here is the Tillotson 212r MKII, more on Tillotson 212e here: czcams.com/video/zXj7VSEMJ4A/video.html
Honestly paying that extra 70$ for the tillitson engine being better supported and the upgraded flywheel alone is worth it.
$112 vs $270 ?
@@briancullen5183 how can i find a $110 212
New and love these solid reviews.
So much better than dragged out videos .
Your channel is just the channel I needed right now to learned what I need to learn to build a motorized beach cruiser. Im addicted.
AMAZING Explanation and demonstration! Great video!
Love your videos keep'm comeing love it Easy to understand and you do things nice and simple thank you
You have great content, subbed for sure!
THE INFORMATION & DETAILS IN THIS VIDEO MAKES THIS ONE OF THE BEST EVER! I SUBSCRIBED
Man buddy you have some great camera skills buddy this video is top notch buddy definitely can’t wait to see what other great videos you have
Subscribed ! .. I need to do some research and build myself a dyno!
Great comparison 👏
Getting my Tillotson stage 2 motor in a couple of days, I can't wait.
Where did you get yours from? Most place I looked seem to be out of the stage 2 for them
Great video bro!
Thanks!
Thank you for the video
Like your videos. Did you make any mods to 212r? And did you remove the governor?
I'm using a 212 so it fits in phatmotos frame. This video helped me pick the Tillotson as I'm gonna build it as much as I can. I like all that extra support. One question though. Does the tilly support a charging system if I were to install it? I prefer that to a battery bank light system
The main difference I've found between the two platforms is manufacturing tolerances. The Predator crankshaft journal can be as much at .003 oversized and out of round. The clones aren't nearly so much. I know a few farmers, contractors, and kart racers who found this out the hard way. I've never used a stock Predator or clone engine as my intent was to disassemble and modify the engine when I purchased it, so I've always used a micrometer on the journals and polished them to desired clearance when necessary before I install the billet connecting rod.
Camshafts in the tillitsons has more lift and longer duration and my 212 e also came with stainless valves automotive keeper and locks and bronze guides
Awesome! I’d love to see some videos on the Lifan engine that comes on that mega moto. I have one.
I've had a few people ask today. Might look it over when I swap out the max engine. 👍
👍 I have the max but I added a toque converter.
lifan makes the predator 212 69730 and loncin makes the predator 212 60636 hemi just throwing that out there
my megamoto 212 came with lots of good parts stock!
Great video thank you
Thanks for the comparo
Would have been nice to see at what RPM maximum torque was at. A 212 Pred with a stage one kit should get over 9HP at 4600 RPM. Years ago I seen a dyno test result of a stock Pred with what is known now as a stage 1 kit. It got 13.5 ft/lbs of torque.
The Tillotson should have more power. It has higher compression out of the box than the Pred. No mystery there.
Out of the box the spring is in a different hole on the gov arm. This is why the Tillotson gets higher governed RPM than the Predator. You can do the same on any 196 or 212.
I would never buy a Tillotson unless I was building a monster 8000 plus RPM engine. The Pred 212 and 196 clones work just fine. I guess the Tillotson is nice for those who want out of the box power and don't want to open the engine. And by the way, these 212's are not clones. True clones are 196cc.
Another thing to remember here is that the Tillotson is an out of the box mini bike and go kart engine. The Predator is an out of the box utility engine.
Planning on a predator 212 to power a stick welder. Wish me luck with the charging system.
do you have a recommendation on wether it would be worth the money to buy a stock predator and put the Gopowersports stage 2 kit on it (cam, rod , flywheel #22 springs) or just buy the MkII 212r from EC carbs and throw some #22 springs on it. about 80$ cheaper for that.
I already have a stage 1 kit to put on either motor.
Need to do a test on a stock (Blue) Tillotson 212' Supposedly More Torque than a Predator 212
Nice video, could you do a 301cc predator test/ build not a lot of data on the 301s
Almost picked one up. Have had more interest in it from people but I've got about 12 more videos in line I've already been filming! lol I'm even uploading one now while editing another. It might make it to the list though! Others have interest as well!
What do you think is the best cam for the 212r To take advantage of the parts already on there like the flywheel, head, and piston. I know the one that is in it is better than stock but I'm sure as ur RPM goes up it will start to fall off.
Was wondering your recommendations on an adjustable carb for a predator hemi 212 cc engine, thanks
How much of a difference will having a governor vs not having a governor make on the predator 212 non hemi and tillotson 212 and then the Ducar 212 and then the predator 212 hemi?
I recently purchased a Trailmaster 200-2 and it comes with the 196cc Chinese clone engine, Jhiang Dong I believe. I'm thinking of replacing it with the Tillitson 212r. Could you do a side-by-side comp of these 2 engines? I plan on keeping the engine stock, but will be replacing the 46t rear sprocket with a 60t for better low end torque.
Could I take the crank, rod & piston from my Hemi and use it in a Tillotson block?
That’s crazy $30 dollars more gets you the whole engine
The higher compression of the tillotson seems to explain dyno results in my eyes
Around here we run tilllllys up to 9,000 rpm and above .. 💪open modifieds wing karts 🤠
Did that Tillotson 212r come with the TCT carb?
What is the difference between the Tillotson 212R and the Tillotson 212R MKII?
Can you do sme big block predator tests maybe the 301cc vs the 420cc or maybe the 420cc vs a duramax 440cc. Would be cool to see
Currently have a 420-440 video in mind. The Zombie catapult go kart might be getting an upgrade, but I've got about a dozen videos in line I'm working ahead of it. ;)
@@megoingfast Hell yea man, keep up the good work
Thanks for the information.ove the vid,.
Burn that mich. So much popping. Maybe a predator air filter would help.
Is that black heat shield made of plastic are metal?
I would have liked to see a comparison of the piston rods. Major failure point on predators.
Internals for the tillotson 212 are shown in the first video before doing the compare. The rods are about the same.
You should have shown how far pistons were " in the hole". But good video. I have the 212r mkII version
This is the MKII version
Those engines are not the "hemi" headed ones. Those ones generally have more torque stock but really open up when you put a stage 1 on them as they flow so much better.
FYI: Harbor Freight look for part #60363 which is the hemi version. they mix them as all 212cc engines.
Preditors have very weak valve springs stock also and just a stage 1 it's recommended to upgrade them as with the higher RPM's they will float a bit even with the governor.
The hemi head comparison can be found here: czcams.com/video/zXj7VSEMJ4A/video.html
Any reason to put a mikuni carb on the 212r also what about a different exhaust to see gains in HP? I put a 212r on my yerf dog 3203 with a juggernaut and noticed a considerable difference compared to the techumseh 6.5 and comet clutch. Just wondering if I should spend the cash in the mikuni and exhaust for added hp gains?
Great question. I have a header on mine with stock airbox (since it's high flow) and it gave a nice little boost. However, unless you replace the piston rod with billet, up the valve springs, remove the governor, then you don't want to put too much more power into it. You've gotta make it safe for the extra rpms, first. If you remove the gov, switching to a smaller mikuni makes it easy to have a tidy throttle setup. Wish I could give the perfect answer, but you have a few paths you can go. Without governor removal, the carb won't do too much but itself. The header and a jet swap on the carb will be your biggest impact at that level.
@@megoingfast Thanks, honestly with the 212r on there and juggernaut it has enough power and torque to spin the super turf 20x10.0-8 and we get up to 35mph on the dirt with 2 people. That’s fast enough for that small frame. Thanks again for dropping the knowledge! We will keep watching and love the videos especially the intro song....lol
What about piston to deck ht on the 2
So if one were to slap on stage 1 upgrades and leave it at that...which is the better choice?
If cost does not matter go with the Tillotson. If you are on a budget go Predator.
Here's my opinion.... The only way I would buy a Tillotson is if I wanted to build a high compression high RPM engine. Anything 7500 RPM and under and lower compression engine I would get/use a 196 clone or 212 Predator.
When you put that 212r on your BT200x bike did it have a torque converter?
Nope. My mega moto has the TAV currently.
What did you mean by the $70 upgrade flywheel on the Predator ???? I've been wandering about a flywheel upgrade without having to spend lots of $$$. Not going to spin one mega PPMs but still don't wanna explode one.
The PVL flywheel is an alternative to a billet flywheel. It costs about $70 and has a range up to 17,000 rpm.
Can the 212r stock pushrtakes rods,, champion rockers ??
watch a comparison of 2 gasoline engines on video. Like I saw the machines I owned were branded RATO and branded DUCAR.
I chose the best Predator machine, because it is similar to the rato machine that I have.
I have tried almost all engine brands.
Original Chinese-made gasoline engines like Rato & Loncin are very strong, able to fight famous brands such as Honda, Robin, Yamaha, Mitsubishi, Briggs & Stratton, Kohler.
Meanwhile, other brands of gasoline engine made in China, according to my experience and knowledge, are not as tough as Rato & Loncin
yeah get the Tillotson block and just build a 212 with what you want. save on stock parts you'll scrap anyway like rockers, pushrods, valves and springs, etc.
Hey I recently bought a Tillotson 212 E from gopowersports and I had the same problem you had but the opposite if that makes sense. My exhaust valve was staying shut while my intake would open because the valve lash was not set correctly and was too loose and it pushed my exhaust push rod out of the rocker arm and for a day and a half I was baffled as to what was going on until I check the valve lash. It runs fine now that I put the push rod back in and it wasn't bent set the valve lash and she was good. I didn't get much information as to what the valve lash was supposed to be I had to try and find it on tillotson's website. If there is a way to contact them would you possibly let me know how I have a few questions because I bought two brand new Predator hemis, a stage 1 Tillotson 212 e, and a Tillotson 225 Stroker that just came out
.003 for valve lash. Best to ask through where you bought to start if any issues. Otherwise, I go through tillotson Ireland sure and us tillotson e.c. carburetor. Best start with who you bought from in case they changed specs or did mods pre-sale.
@@megoingfast I would prefer to buy from Tillotson straight. But my only source at the moment is gopowersports as far as Tillotson go oh, I haven't had any issues with the 225 is actually a pretty stout motor it's gotten my mini bike up to 75 miles an hour out of the box with the right gearing and jetting. Thank you for the information and is that .003 for both the intake and exhaust?
@@mindovermatter3988 both
How about a HONDA 212 vs the Tilly 212?
Does the tillotson air filter box accept the 33mm as well? Just curious if a 33mm k&n filter would be a good move?
Air filter comes with the Tillotson would be more surface area and is a high flow pleated.
Air filter box has rod going through center. Modifications to the filter would be needed.
I would have gotten this engine (the Tilly 212R) but not in stock so I got the old blue Tillotson 212. Hope it runs good in the MB200-2. Seems like from videos on YT is makes a little more power than the Predator stock. 🤷♂️
I also wonder if the Blue 212E has stiffer valve springs than 10.8 lbs stock.
Having worked on both of these the Tillotson blocks are so much better. Take a bore gauge to your Tillotson vs the Predators.
I have a Predator Hemi transplanted into a Tillotson block. You can't with a non hemi. Since the heads don't transfer without machine work.
Have a regular 212R bought as a fully assembled engine. Works a champ.
I won't be buying Predator stuff ever again.
same here - EVERYTHING is better
Did you say 33mm air filter?
Are pushrods the same ?? ¿
Would these engines make more horsepower of they had a OHC design vs OHV?
Overhead cam doesn't inherently increase power it just depends on the design.
Question for you. I have a Tilly 212 and juggernaut on my BT200X. I've seen a lot of videos where they cut the gas vent tubing as part of their stage 1&2 mods.
The EPA filter box or whatever it's called is in the way for my TAV. Can I just cut that tubing? Or do I need to get a filter for it?
Thanks, love your stuff!
If you're referring to the tube that comes out of the valve cover? I put a 12mm filter on it to keep dust from getting in if I don't throw to a catch can. It should have pressure coming out when running, but stuff can always find a way in (bugs and dust). www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0146I3MJC
@Whoop!
So if you put a flat top piston in the pred it's going to out perform the til by a lot is what I'm hearing. The pred is a much better buy.
How does the Tillotson compare to a stock techumseh 6.5hp for a yerf dog go kart. Just looking for more torque and a little more top end. Thanks.
Lol Tecumseh is not even a comparison in Torque an Reliability compared to Any Tillotson.
You need to dyno the new stock Wild Cat 223 from EC carbs it has a 58mm stroke an hemi head. For Only $200
7.5 hp out of box. Besides that, anything in particular you're curious about?
@@megoingfast Torque"
@@jacobsebastien3910 the charging coil has me tempted but I'll have to look at what flywheel specs it has to see if that's any good for a build or flywheel only rated to 5k and would be replaced anyway. Looks like the Lifan 212 a little.
@@megoingfast confirmed by EC carb email I asked which hemi head Flows better between the Wildcat hemi head an the blue Tillotson 212 hemi head an they said out of the box the blue Tillotson Hemi Head Flows Better out of the box.
@@megoingfast I'd like to see a detailed comparison of the various hemi heads. Valve angle, material, valve lengths, stem diameters, keeper types, cc's - that sort of stuff. It's easy to get info for the non hemi's [to me]. I'm trying to upgrade a wildcat head and it seems valve angles are different. Valve length too. Seems to be quite the bastard but i like the bowl machining!
I'm about to cuss in this next clip! Hilarious!
I'd rather just have the Predator 212 or 224 reason being is you pay $279 for $179 you can get a stage one kit maybe even a stage 2 Kit
My Predator 212 had a plastic cam gear in it. Guess they finally switched 🤷♂️
Thanks for the info! I've not bought one yet this year.
are the tillotson and predators both honda clones?
Any issues with gas tank venting? I heard of sum of those issues.
Myself, no, but I have heard from others that this was an issue. That cap is a common cheapo I've seen a lot in lawnmower use for $5. Very budget.
@@megoingfast I'm wondering if a Tillotson 212 (blue) tank would fit on the 212r
@@megoingfast me personally I would want to change the tank for venting issues an seems like it would be easier for dust/dirt to get suck in from cap from dusty conditions the way it vents. On my Tillotson 212 blue I have a filter on my gas tank vent. 🤔 Just thinking..
Don't know, but I do know that a champion 196 gas cap is a premium cap that fits on my 212r right now. Just tested a few caps I had around.
Predator hemi does, non-hemi does not. Hemi cap the same for as the champion.
Please remove the governor completely and redo the test please and thank you.
How much hp does the tillotson 212r mk2 have?
this is the mkII - I'm a little curious on the latest batch though as they have a different carb listed this time
Just doing a go kart to drive around
I'll make it last
Would you buy it again? Is it reliable?
Yes, I'd buy it again if I had a specific thing to run it on (which I do). It has been reliable with a header and muffler. Really fit into the stock jetting well and now runs very smooth.
@@megoingfast so would it just be plug n play for my gokart with a predator 212 with 30 series and juggernat cvt?
@@coreyd7060 I have swapped the two on a few things so far. 99.8% yes. Very tiny dimensional differences length and width.
@@megoingfast thank you very much youve been most helpful. Another question is do you know why gopowersports stopped carrying them??? Maybe because its killing their predator product line lolololol
Wish the Pred was a Hemi for this comparison . . .
I put up a hemi -vs- non-hemi video that has a few more comparisons between the two and dyno results.
Was this the 212r mkii
yes
Next time remove the governor completely to see how much of a difference between the horsepower and torque and rpm's and max rpm possible
Guess
Im waiting for the tillotson engine. Shit.
How does the Coleman engine compare in quality?
Quality, hard to judge. Most feel it lacking in power and the governor kicks in low. However, the parts on it are actually very nicely made from a quality control perspective.
Except the carb linkage issue. That typically should be addressed.
@@megoingfast Thank you!
if you have the small journal crank they suck!
you sound like engineering explained
Dude the Predator is a non Hemi
the Tillotson is a 10 hp
That what it said on Amazon to
the hemi 212
great movie first off here in europe we have a karting competition called the 9hp in short you have to use a honda gx200 engine governor removed en the exhaust valve has retainer of an intakethat is it those things produce about 7000 rpm (to high) about 5000rpm is the sweet spot just under 9hp we rev max under load and short burst at 6400 rpm as last year we have a new catogery the tillotson series off factory 212 engine running 15 hp STOCK !!!!! get some information on this you will learn a lot off great stuff for your vids like learnd from yours i am gonna build me a dyno i wanna be as close to the 9 hp as i can website off our comp is www.gk4kartseries.com/
Good video.
Lose the helmet.
Thanks! Everyone has their reasons for hiding their face and having a little fun. My reasons are free now and the helmet is gone ;) A helmet is often used for needed protection.
You sound like Hank Hill lol
I was very trusting in this. Then I seen fackin ryobi tools.