Predator 212 Hemi vs Non-Hemi Engines
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- čas přidán 27. 04. 2021
- Everything you need to know about the differences between Harbor Freight's Predator 212 "Hemi" and Non-Hemi engines. An in-depth look at the advantages of each engine, as well as the disadvantages.
Hemi boxes have staples and are made better. Weird but true.
Holy crap. You are correct.
Not completely true california engines are all stapled boxes and they are all non hemis to my knowledge after calling several shops in my state
@@naturechanel209 a lot has probably changed over the past 2 years.
Dude your videos are so much more informative than many of the videos already out about these engines! The one on the makuni carb was awesome too! Thanks so much for sharing!!
definitely
Great video, and a very in-depth explanation between the mod-ability of two engine types.
Great video - lots of great info. I just installed a hemi 212 Predator engine from Harbor Freight on my old Troybilt Tiller and was wandering about the differences - very good vid - thx!
Hemi box uses compressed cardboard to protect engine. Non hemi uses styrofoam.
Thank you for a very nice detailed description. You’re very good at teaching.
Looking up videos on my honda clone water transfer pump (not sure what model clone) and somehow ended up here reminiscing about my karts. Wish I had this kind of information when I was younger. Great video.
I have the RtC6 third generation head, with 27 Millimeter 25 mm stainless steel valves . With regular car valve keepers. Then we milled 80,000 off the head and used a 9000 head gasket. With a little mod 2 cam, And a Mikuni VM 22 carburetor thank you to you I was able to tune it perfectly it doesn’t have one hiccup or one pop when I decelerate. And of course whatever billet parts for safety. That little motor screams I’m 250 pounds and the bike does 58 miles an hour with me on it with 12 inch wheels, All on a 1970 JC Penney bird Minibike frame with front and back suspension. What a trip
This is the best explanation of what the real differences are. Thanks!
Thank YOU! Hope we’ve earned a !
You have answered all of my questions, thank you
Best comparison I've seen!!! Very informative thanks got a new sub here!!
Thanks for the crash course this videos great! 😁
John you are the "Pi Mei" of harbor freight engines at explaining all the differences between a Hemi and Non Hemi engine. Well done Sir. The Hemi has a larger combustion camber which makes for lower compression ratio.
Sort of.. The Hemi engine comes with a flat top piston that helps to mitigate that big chamber; I think the advertised compression ratio is really close between the two versions. But you’re absolutely right in the sense that it more challenging to go to substantially higher compression ratios with the Hemi head.
Great overview and very informative. Thank You.
Thanks Paul, appreciate the feedback. Subscribe; we’ve got new stuff in the works.
Incredible video, super informative. New sub!
That was a knowledge bomb thank you!
I wish this channel was alive. This video was excellent. I wonder how much we could learn if there were more videos.
We’re not dead, just busy. More to come though. Any suggestions for a topic to cover?
Great video man thank you
Thank you for the clarification.
This is the best example of the difference between the two I've seen thanks 😊
Thanks! I’m a visual learner, so it’s always better for me to see something than to have it described to me. Glad you enjoyed; SUBSCRIBE!
thank you for clarifying, bought the non hemi engine-following the # on box etc. -and when opened the engine was a hemi....not happy...appreciate your info....heading back to store and opening boxes if necessary.....thank you again
Man first off thank you!!! I’ve never fully understood the difference, pros cons etc. seems like most people are either strictly hemi or non hemi. Me I just got into modding these engines about a year ago, first one was a non just by accident m, was the o one in stock. I just picked up a hemi couple weeks ago. Haven’t done much to the hemi yet just gov delete, oil del, 22# springs and a 22mm mikuni. My non hemi has billet flywheel, billet rod, no gov,no oil sensor, 18# springs and 24mm flat slide mikuni. I’ve got it turning 7,700 then I think valves float. Bout to put 26# springs. Anyways I would love a lil advice or tips on port polish and shaving the head. Not gonna lie I’m a lil scared. Love to talk with you if you could find a few min. Great videos man new sub by the way. Look forward to hearing from ya
Thanks, I’m glad the video was useful! I’m happy to help anytime, although messages to our Facebook page generally get quicker responses. Re porting, without a flow bench it’s hard to really do it effectively, although there’s a lot of “low hanging fruit” you can deal with. Stuff like smoothing out any casting defects, blending the sharp port/bowl transition and valve guide bosses etc. Give the short side radius some love on the intake, and the roof some love on the exhaust. As always, port match all gaskets. Resist the urge to hog out the actual ports which kills the charge velocity.
Re “shaving” the head, it’s worth it to have it properly milled (on a Mill). There are people who will tell you that you can belt sand it and crazy stuff like that, but it’ll never seal properly if it’s not dead flat, which is only going to happen on a Mill.
Put in a bigger cam and flat top piston and after market resistor free ignition coil and after market rocker in your non hemi you will love it
What about the rotating assembly like the crank,the way it rotates size etc. tried to rebuild a hemi using a predator rotating assembly and piston and rod and the Oil pick up on the rod bearings hit the wall
I have a 301 in my Gator. What i have researched is it makes 2 more hp and 2 more pound feet than the origanal kawasaki engine. Its a work horse only mod is exhaust to clear belt drive with better flowing muffler.
I didn't have a lot planned besides a little better cam, billet rod and flywheel with a decent carb.
I imagine since I don't have headwork planned aside from roughing the intake and polishing the exhaust ports it's not going to make much difference?
Makes perfect sence that the clone head is a lot easier to port and shave.
My box has a Hemi valve cover with the other part number and a Hemi inside, It's what I wanted anyway so I'm happy.
Good video! Thank you
Thank YOU!
So what is a good safe build for a hemi to get max HP and rpm
Thank You!
Very informative, thank you. Do you know if the engine side cover on the output shaft side is interchangeable between the two engines or are the different?
They’re different, due to the different cam journal size. The Hemi cover could interchange with a Clone engine though, just make sure the crank and cam end-play are acceptable.
@@bahnzai7313 thank you for the reply, that makes sense. I appreciate the great videos and info, subbed for more!
The Hemispherical head design also provides more overall piston surface area than the uncanted valve head version. For those looking to eek out as much power as possible, I believe the Hemi's the better choice due to this design and its ability to provide more quench during the combustion phase.
Respectfully I disagree:
- Both engines use a 70mm diameter piston; so the “surface area” is the same. If anything, by virtue of it being dished, the straight-valve engine’s piston would have a greater surface area than the Hemi’s flat top. It’s sort of a moot point though, from a performance standpoint.
- The Hemi head has *zero* quench area, instead using canted valves to introduce swirl; that’s one of the primary characteristics of a Hemispherical combustion chamber. The quench area is fertile ground for making a lot of power in the straight-valve engines, we do a lot of work there, and without divulging secrets, suffice it to say that I would miss having that area to work with..
Having said that, there are definitely plenty of people who agree with you regarding the Hemi, and indeed; we’ve built some rowdy Hemi’s for folks who’ve insisted. They’re not *BAD* engines, and I love the intake port. It’s just that (as I said in the video) for the average builder, without access to serious machine shop equipment and lacking fairly substantial knowledge, it’s much easier to heavily modify a straight valve engine.
Thanks a lot you are right I got the 69730 box but it's got the hemi head
Great info👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I bought 3 on Black Friday. 2 are standard and 1 is a Hemi. The pics on the box are the only way to tell the difference. The numbers are all the same.
So frustrating, huh? Harbor Freight could have left them as two separate “interchangeable” part numbers but instead *chose chaos*. Baffling.
Not that it really matters, because now the 224’s are superior to either of the 212’s in every conceivable way. THERE; I SAID IT! FIGHT ME!! 😉👍😊. Thanks for watching!
My experience with the hemi vs non hemi 212 engine's is this- the two plants that make the engine's are just that! Two separate plants- the hemi plant has lacking qc and allows poor quality to pass! The non hemi plant takes pride in their work and produces a much stronger engine! The tolerances are bad on thehemi head engine's and bearings on the crankshaft tend to wear out fast! Under high loads the hemi head gaskets fail due to warping of thehead's!
That is very true. The part number doesn’t matter cause I just bought one from Harbor freight today and it said part number 69730 and it was a hemi engine inside so look at the picture of the box.
I can say that valve clearance on a hemi won't be a concern for the vast majority of people.
Have a hemi head milled .065", .010" head gasket, flat top piston with a CM265 cam and I still got .120" clearance on the exhaust side. Intake side didn't even touch the clay I put on top of the piston.
I am also running 26lb springs on that cam and head (.265 lift 236 dur @.050 on intake and exhaust) and I have no coil bind issues. Engine spins to 8,600 reliably. The ideal combo would be a hemi with a quench chamber welded in.
What one is more reliable if you keep it stock and just remove the throttle limit spring. I am looking into eventually getting one to swap between a few pieces of equipment and a mini bike randomly. No other mods besides maybe someday a better carburetor.
Both the Predators are ok stock,just don't rev them too high with the Governor removed: revs kills engines: upgrade the Valvesprings at the very least to # 18 pound ones so the valves don't tickle the head of the piston.Id stick to around 5,250 rpms max, 😙buy yourself 1 of those little Chinese rev counters that gets its pickup from the # of sparks firing, dead easy to set up.Trev New Zealand
I went to 3 Harbor Freight stores the other night, literally driving over 100 miles between the three stores and my home, looking for a non-hemi engine. The manager at the third and final store I visited, assured me I was buying the straight valve engine, despite the fact that it has the cast valve cover and the 730 part number. Now I'm thinking I did indeed get the hemi version, which only really pisses me off, because I WANTED the straight valve engine. It's MADDENING that I'm not able to walk into any HF store and easily buy what I want. Granted, I'm only going to use it to re-power my tired-ass 5-horsepower MTD snowblower, but FFS!
Since entering that comment, I've been in touch with two more stores, for a total of five Harbor Freights. Not a single one of them has a straight-valve engine in stock. Even when their computer shows say, five engines with a part number of 60383, they really have five of the 69730s. Oh, well. I guess I know what my answer will be when someone asks me, "That thing got a hemi?" 😂
In the future, consider getting a 212 from Box Stock Project (.com). It’s a far superior engine for the same price.
witch one is faster out of the box? i am pretty sure the rules in cycle karts forbid doing machine work. great info, thank you.
The Hemi's advertise with like .1 foot pound of torque more, but really, it's kind of a wash if you're leaving it *really really* stock, not "racing stock"...
I have a predator 212cc hemi and I put a "stage 2" kit on it. Yesterday the valve spring broke and sent a valve through the head. The place i bought the parts said I had everything I needed to run and it did run good for a minute then I heard a thud and the engine shut down and locked up.
Bummer. Valve Springs really are the Achilles Heel of the Hemi. Hope you get it back together.
Gopowersports...right ? Trev NZ
And this time Korey grind some clearance notches in the pistoncrown, especially if it's an interference engine & by that I mean the piston top/crown & valves interfere with ea other if for eg a pushrod pops out of place or bends etc...you can do this yourself with some clay or plasticine laid on the piston crown & temporarily assembled,push your valves down into it at max lift & grind at least .060"- .080" Clearance into the piston top ,you can do this with an old valve with notches cut into the valve rim.Goodluck Trev NZ
I did the hemi with clone 14cc head milled.080 high compression must run on race gas’s
I have a hemi and I put bigger springs on and all that fun stuff but I have a seat portion of my piston head cut out for my valves
But yes you are right it takes more work to modify a hemi but if you know what you’re doing it’s worth it
Yup. But you’re always going to be constrained in ways that a straight valve head is not, by virtue of things like the rocker pivot height, exhaust port roof thickness, and large combustion chamber. I love Hemi’s for torquey mini bike motors, and fast yard karts and such, but the straight valve engine is my go-to for really serious stuff for the reasons I outlined in the video.
Do you think I will have any issues with a Go Power Sports Stage 2 kit for a Predator 212 Hemi? The hemi version is the only Predator 212 engine that my local Harbor Freight has in stock, ever.
Ask Go; I’m not familiar with their “stage” stuff. Maybe just get a 224; they’re all straight-valve.
Thank You, that was very helpful. I know I have the right engine to modify to stage one.
So, can you use a non hemi head on a hemi motor?
A valve about .750" longer, in a hemi. Then weld up the the head above the port, weld it up till nearly 1" thick raise the rocker location .750" also, along with the push rods, and make a spacer for the rocker cover. Maybe epoxy it on. Machine the spring seats . 750" taller, with the port possibly made nearly . 700" taller at the inlet possibly, and the lower welded up, making a new inlet location .700-.750" taller for a straighter shot at the top of the valve, and the exhaust can be raised also. Only .500" to allow extra thickness on top of the hot port.. the heigh ports flowing much better, possibly gain 1-1.5 HP @,4k rpm, with no other mods, besides a exhaust, at 6k rpm it should be 3+HP and gains from idle to the to the moon!
Im confused.. by your logic the stage 4 Hemi I have in my go kart running at 19+HP with the flat top piston should have damaged itself sometime in the past 3 years I've been running it, yet it hasn't. how very odd..
You've. Depending on your camlift ,only got a few thou piston to valve end free clearance & have been lucky: float the valves in anger & it might be different....the factory leave a lot of clearance std.Does that help.Cheers from NewZealand
I boight a pred 212 back when $99 ... left it in box for couple years decided I wanted to play with it and learn about small engine ...first thing learned was two different versions ...pulled out new and still in box pred and was happy to see it was a hemi ...until l learned it sucks for learning about small engines because can't play mod game as well with it ...is it OK to just swP out for pvl flywheel and do a stage one upgrade with hemi I've been so unlucky to have now??
The Hemi’s are fine motors, and respond well to a few simple upgrades. Do the “stage 1”, and yes, swap in a PVL. Be aware that the PVL (if I recall correctly) only has 28 degrees of advance in it, unlike most billet flywheels which are 32-33, so maybe grab an offset key too.
If you’re removing the governor I always recommend a billet rod along with an aftermarket flywheel.
The Hemi loves compression. Swap out the .045 OEM head gasket for an .009 or .010 steel gasket. You can also mill the heck out of the head, although you’ll need shorter pushrods eventually. A longer rod and/or taller (.570) height piston are also possible ways to built compression, which is challenging on a Hemi because of its big chamber. Of course, the silver lining on a Hemi is it’s lack of a typical quench area; we can get that piston way up closer to the deck height (Pro Tip: or, *carefully*, above it) without having to sweat our quench clearance so much. But that’s way past Stage 1…. 😉
Do you think if you swapped the non hemi stock exhaust on to a hemi you could get more power? I have to run the stock exhaust.
They’re both pretty bad.
I got a hemi engine for my ct200u mini bike and as far as mods go I got an Exhuast for it. Will I have any reliability issues?
You may want to change out the main jet to adjust for the free flowing exhaust, but otherwise should be fine.
What about removing the governor on the Hemi, bad idea?
No, good idea.
Is using copper washers/shims with stock valve springs better than 18lb springs for lightly modded straight valve engines?
Unless you’re restricted by a rules package, where you’re working closely to a specific “installed height” and spring rate, I would upgrade to 18’s or 22’s. The stock 10.8’s wear out quickly; it’s not uncommon to replace them after a few race nights.
@@bahnzai7313 What's your opinion on running 16lb GX140 springs on an engine that will not see more than 5500 RPM?
I don’t know if 16lb springs are really much better than stock 10.8’s when put on the heavier (larger) 212 valves. I personally prefer 22’s on stock 212 valvetrains; they do a fine job of keeping float under control without wiping out soft stock/re-ground cams or breaking stock valves and retainers, and are less likely to coil bind than the 18lb OEM Honda springs that some folks sell. Toss a pair of 22’s on it with some dirt-cheap stamped 1.3 ratio rocker arms and you’re good to go (for a “lightly modded” engine).
@@bahnzai7313 Thanks!
What about using longer valve stem valves??? Don't know if anyone makes the off the shelf , but take a set that are slightly bigger and grind them down. I replaced the big 14 hp cast iron Briggs on the antique Sears Suburban with a 212 Predator Hemisphere head. Had to use a hormonic balancer from a small block Chevrolet for the flywheel action. You hafta machine an adapter on the lathe to mate the hormonic balancer to the Predator crankshaft. It also take out most of the vibration from the engine as well. I mounted the engine on thick rubber, but the balancer soaks up most of it. The heavy cast iron engine turned half the speed and weighed like 1000 times as much so it didn't vibrate at all. Was stalling the engine when letting out on the clutch too fast or engaging the blades. Anyway these engines are activating to start after they get hot. Most times you hafta choke them. The straight valve doesn't do this. Not sure why this would be.
Using longer valves is only possible when one can also shim the rocker arm pedestals for corrrect geometry, which of course is impossible on the Hemi head. The only way to go is deeper on the spring pocket, which also on a Hemi head is impossible. (You’ll be through the roof of the exhaust port before you know it..).
@@bahnzai7313
But couldn't you raise the rocker perch to whatever height , and machine a set of lifters to proper length? I know we're getting into a lot of $$$ or machine work for folks with a lathe and mill. But in the end it's a hobby. Also machine a domed piston , so you can cut eyebrows for more cam lift. That way you won't loose compression. Or are you talking about the offset of the rocker arms if you higher?????? Then how about making more offset rocker arms?
Think about the rocker pivot on a Hemi; it’s a shaft, in a boss that’s cast as part of the head. There’s no way to move that shaft higher to raise the pivot point. I don’t know if one could theoretically fabricate special Hemi rocker arms with one “tall leg” to accommodate taller valve stems, but it’s sort of a moot point; once you go past some very basic modifications, the tiny flow advantages of the stock Hemi head vs a stock straight valve are negated. Sure, with extensive fabrication and machine work you might be able to build a high-compression, high lift Hemi, *but why*?? It’s just shoveling against the tide.. And that’s why I recommend Hemi’s for purely stock or extremely mild performance applications, and non-Hemi for anything more serious.
@@bahnzai7313
I've had so many other engines go down that I've "had'" to attend to rebuilding that just haven't had time to play with these little girls. Have wanted to for a long time. Have installed probably a couple dozen since they have come out. Starting with the blue Grey Hound brand.
Since you're really up on performance upgrades on these , have you ever tried to bore and sleeve a block? I assume a piston would be machined from a billet of 6061 or try and match up something with the correct dimensions.
I want to build a predator 212, Its gonna get a header, air filter, .036 main jet and .020 pilot jet, GX140 E-tube and 18lb valve springs. Is a hemi or non hemi better for that? I was thinking of doing a non hemi cause I want to put electric start on it as well
But they both have electric start
@@marcustrue1213 true but I called GoPowerSports and they say that the Hemi has a different taper on the crank than the Non Hemi so it needs a different flywheel. You have to use a Kohler flywheel and ring gear on the Hemi’s and a Honda clone flywheel on the Non Hemis. Also I found out that for bigger modifications the Non Hemi is better and with stuff like a header and air filter the Hemi is better.
Are crankshafts interchangeable?
Kind of…. You would need to use the correct flywheel for the crankshaft, as the tapers are different between the Hemi and Straight Valve, but otherwise you’re good to go. Rod journal size is the same, as are the case bearing diameters. As always, check your end-play and adjust with the side cover gasket thickness if necessary, but otherwise it’s a bolt-in.
Question.
For a straight valve 212 engine, ((being ran for normal industrial use at 3,600 on the original governor.))
With dedicated fuel of propane, 105/110 octane is normal for LPG.
How much can a head be shaved with a change to a 0.010 head gasket.
Without being under the 0.080 space rule?
.
Also.
awesome video, thank you for taking the time to make it.
A lot. I’d be reluctant to give a specific number without measuring what’s there, but really, a lot. Easily 100 thou, although you’re going to either need shorter pushrods or to shim the rocker pedestals to get the geometry right again. Keep in mind, the straight valve motors are generally 020 in the hole, with a dished piston, and a cam that is only lifting .220 or something with minimal duration; valve to piston clearance is not going to be an issue unless you take a really enormous cut on the head. Also, if it’s a straight valve the head gasket is already 009 or 010; only the Hemi’s got that 040 fiber gasket, so adjust your calculations accordingly.
I’m curious what the goal would be in cutting the head in an industrial LPG application. Adding HP? Routine rebuilding? What are we doing here?
Thanks for the kind feedback, we appreciate the support. Like, share, subscribe!! Cheers.
@@bahnzai7313 its a wood splitter and it lives out side in a coastal environment, under a tarp.
that regularly hits the dew point.
the cost of ethanol free is around $6 propane is $2.60
Even with the ethanol free, im still dealing with water in tank every spring. From the condensation.
Even with a drained tank.
.
Other then that recovering some of the lost hp from using LP.
combined with a increase in work load from a change from a 11gpm to a 16 gpm pump.
So yea more hp, LOL.
.
The other small detail is.
it was originally sold as an engine with the 2" water pump. The water pump died and i repurpose it.
I dont think that makes any difference, but mabe one piston type over the other is all i can think of.
@@BGWenterprises I have a small generator with a Ducar 208. I didn't lose any power on propane. It handles loads as high 80% just as well as gasoline. I never tested it on NG but I'm sure it would lose some power.
Thanks for helping this guy; I have the best viewers on the interwebs!
@bahnzai7313 I've learned about a different approach.
That a gx160 head will work with a hf 212cc short block.
And I just happen to have a gx160 engine, with a blown pressure washer pump. For me to get a good head from.
Is this the same with a predator 301 Hemi and non Hemi
Yes, the advantages/drawbacks of the Hemi and Straight-Valve heads are inherent in their designs, irrespective of application.
Can you mount a non hemi head to a hemi block?
You can, and you should! That gives you the combination of the arguably nicer Hemi block casting with normal Clone type cam journal size and a flat top piston, with the clear performance potential advantages of the Straight Valve head. You’ll need the Straight Valve pushrods, and you’ll have to deal with the 1 dowel pin difference (diagonal vs straight across), but it’s simple to just drill that one head bolt hole a bit bigger. Or, a lazy man might just leave that dowel pin out completely….
But yeah, do it.
So which one is better to modify, meaning to do upgrades? I wanted to go to a stage 4 upgrade kit using my stock Factory Hussein Clone Engine 196cc oh, but gopowersports told me that when you go into the internal parts sometimes you run into problems with the Honda clone engines oh, so he told me to go with a predator 212 Hemi or non Hemi, he said either one would take the upgrades and that they could get it to work. But I want to know which one is really better, because they say that the non Hemi engines are better for doing upgrades than the Hemi Predator engines are. What do you suggest before I go and buy the Hemi? One other thing, go power sports said that they don't have any billet side covers with the dual bearings for the non Hemi engines, which I would like to have the side cover put on, it just looks so much better, and it is better than the stock side cover. Thanks
Like it says in the video, I like the Hemi’s either out of the box stock, or *wildly* modified (think LOTS of machine work). For the average “guy in his garage”, the Non-Hemi is easier to modify.
@@bahnzai7313 Ask you for the good oil & will probably buy from gopowersports..... annoying isn't it ! T NZ
gopowersports is full of shit. There's nothing wrong with clone internals. As an example, the 224 crankshaft is a clone crankshaft. Just with a 58mm stroke. Has a clone rod journal and flywheel taper just like GX200 and clones.
I bought a 69730 and it turned out to be a hemi. An intake and exhaust system would probably be as far as I go with it. Can u take the govener off and change the flywheel on these w/o causing issues?
Yes, you can, but try to keep the RPM’s under 6k if you keep the stock rod. Changing the flywheel will bump the timing to 32 degrees advance;get a 6 degree offset key if you keep the stock flywheel (again, under 6k RPMs). You can also bump the compression a bit by changing the .045 thick Hemi head gasket for an .010 gasket instead. An intake and exhaust will require a jet change. The stock pilot jet (the plastic one under the idle screw) is probably adequate, although a 17.5 is better. You’ll want like a 35 or 36 main jet (at sea-level-ish. Those simple mods will really wake up a “stock” Hemi. Hit us up on Facebook if we can help.
@@bahnzai7313 thanks for the info man, very helpful.
I'm planning on racing the predator 212 box stock class. .31 max high speed jet .19 max low speed jet, 10.8 valve springs, stock intake and muffler and the governor has to be intact and working, 5500 max rpm on stand. Is there anything I can do to get more power with out cheating? I'm leaning towards the hemi after this video.
“Box Stock” can mean a lot of things. Can you “massage” the air box? It’s super restrictive. Same thing with the muffler.. The Hemi comes out of the box with an .040 composite head gasket, that you might want to swap for a .009 steel gasket for some additional compression. If you’re allowed to change the timing, I’d shoot for 30-32 degrees of advance, and use an AR3910x plug. The jetting is going to limit you, so I’d make the most of what you have with a 140 emulsion tube, as well as drilling the jets myself to make sure they’re absolutely as big as legally possible…. (Maybe bigger…) Finally, if you want to be really slick, swap the crank for a 212 Clone crank, which gives you access to a wide variety of oversized cast rods to get the piston closer to the deck. But that’s definitely way, way far into the “Not The Spirit Of The Class” territory. If you really want to stay in the rules, maybe focus on tires and chassis setup. They will contribute more to reduced lap times than any fractional HP increase you might tease out of the engine.
@@bahnzai7313 can I put a non hemi head on a hemi and would that give me any more power stock?
Yes, you can, and yes, the higher compression that will result from the smaller combustion chamber and flat-top OEM Hemi piston should benefit performance. You’ll need the shorter (5.200”) non-Hemi pushrods, and the dowel pin/tubes are on different head bolts, but you can make it work. Think about a set of 1.3 ratio stamped rockers while you’re at it. Although, be aware, that all of that is “out of specification” (that’s diplomatic for “cheating”) in a Box Stock class
@@bahnzai7313 just a thought, I dont wanna cheat to compete. Thanks for the info.
Ah, the ageless quandary; to cheat or not to cheat? As “Big Time Professional Engine Builders” we don’t build blatant cheater motors; it’s bad for our reputation and consequently bad for business. However, as Big Time Professional Engine Builders, we don’t leave anything on the table either, and carefully read the rules with a Smokey Yunick approach. If it doesn’t say we CAN’T, specifically and explicitly, we do. “Stock” at some tracks means “straight out of the box”, while at other tracks it means “only the parts that came out of the box”. Those are two wildly different engines. Personally, I find all that really tiresome, which is why all of our in-house team karts run Outlaw/RWYB. Flat kart: check. Slick tires: check. Everything else is wide open, and nobody ever leaves at the end of the night feeling like they were cheated. No rules = no cheating.
I accidently ordered a 212 hemi cam for my 224 will it still work ?
Yes! They’re both normal Clone cams.
Dang. If you want a big cam in hemi, (in which the stock cam lobes already wear out quicker) you gotta add an extra head gasket and lower the compression so what's the use?
Edit: because you can then add a turbo
I have yet to see a turbo work well on a single cylinder; if you think about it, the intake valve is closed when the turbo is getting the exhaust pulse, so there’s nowhere for the boost pulse to go. On a multi-cylinder engine there’s always a hungry intake valve open somewhere. However, a little AMR300 or AMR500 supercharger can be made to work.
@@bahnzai7313 NO, you just need an extra volume intake to store the energy! ))))
I hear a lot of things that was said
Hemi head air flow is better?????? Is my only question
Can the carburetor be interchanged between the two?
Yes! The stock carburetors are virtually identical.
@@bahnzai7313 Thanks
Say you have a stock hemi, gotta (must) keep the air box, carb and muffler but you want to put a few bucks into it. What do you get? Springs? Cam? Cut the head?
22lb springs, replace the .045 head gasket with an .010, advance the timing, increase carb jet sizes. If you’re allowed to use a billet rod and flywheel, do so.
@@bahnzai7313 Well put ,! Trev NZ
Torqe converter
Can I put a straight valve head on a hemi engine
You sure can, and it’s a good thing. You get the (in my opinion) better quality Hemi block casting with its clone-cam compatibility and flat top piston, and the far more modifiable straight valve head with a smaller combustion chamber. Use a .009 head gasket and the whole thing results in a nice compression boost. The dowel sleeve positions are different, but you just have to drill one to size on the head. (They’re across the bottom on the Hemi, and diagonal on the non.). Start paying attention to valve/piston clearance around 350 lift, and pay close attention to keeping .030 quench (piston to head) clearance, because now, instead of those big forgiving Hemi chambers, there’s an actual deck to hit. Most Hemi’s are around .017-.020 in the hole, so measure that and use the head gasket thickness to get back to .030. Maybe a thousandth or two less, but these pistons have a lot of rock to them, so try to keep .030 for safety.
So what you have is a "hemi head" engine, versus a true hemi, with a hemi-spherical piston to make it a true hemi.
Nice video! I own 1 of each of these motors and you gave me great insight into modifying them!
Question; Keeping the Hemi close to stock, (Governor in NOT removed), can you suggest a good upgrade for a carburetor? Or, should the stock carb be kept and re-jetted? I'm using this motor on a small duck boat and would like to boost intake and exhaust for a little better performance.
Non-Hemi still in the box.
Thank you for any help you can provide!
James
Some witch one would you buy to modify.
Neither; I’d buy a 212 from Box Stock Project and build on that. Same price, way better engine. But between the two Predators, non-Hemi is easier for most people.
@@bahnzai7313 What are you seeing that makes the BSP 212's way better than Pred? That would be great info for everyone.
The BSP 212 has a number of advantages over the Predator engines. First, in terms of overall quality, the BSP is clearly better; nicer castings, heavier sheet metal, nice Black Oxide hardware. Beyond that, the BSP engines are true “Clones”, meaning that all of the parts interchange with standard Clone parts instead of the oddball Predator rods, flywheels and cams. The BSP engines are intended to be race engines, so not only is there no governor to deal with, but it also comes out of the box with a BSP4 camshaft, a nice .005 over cast rod, and a non-smog (adjustable) carburetor. As vendors go, BSP is far better than Harbor Freight; if you need support you’re dealing with racers/engine builders at BSP, whereas at Harbor Freight you have knuckleheads that literally know nothing about engines at all. BSP also gives you the opportunity to configure your engine with some of the more popular kart cams (I really like the EV6) and flywheels right out of the box, whereas with HF engines you’re basically paying for a bunch of parts that you’re just going to throw away to upgrade. Personally, I also prefer supporting a small business.
There are a few caveats though, it’s not all skittles and beer: Their website isn’t always up to date on quantities and such, so it’s always better to call them. The engines don’t include a gas tank (we don’t use engine-mounted tanks on karts); if you need one they’re standard clone tanks which are cheap and plentiful. And of course, as racing engines, you can’t just blow it up and take it back to HF for a replacement.
@@bahnzai7313 Yep. Would have been so much nicer if the Pred was just a big bore clone from the very start. Thanks!
So just go with special spring 26lbs ones work and are not going to need any more head work they know where and how much room needed to make 26lbs spring they don't make springs that dead out before the max lb mark
Will a hemi flywheel fit a non hemi flywheel ?
No, the flywheel taper is different on the crankshafts.
I have had both hemi nonhemi 420cc generator personally the nonhemi runs smoother longer and is a better overall value I mean people get all offended about that but the fact is that the hemi version makes the exact same amount of power but with the hemi version I had a problem with a gnarly ticking like it was in properly timed and a major living condition but most of all the bearings started squeaking within 3 1/2 months and I broke them both in the exact same way personally I think the only reason that they even make the hemi and non-hemi version to sell more engines which the predators are pretty good engines overall either one I just now found it the non-help me is finer tuned and a little bit more durable
Hemi's should be DFI anyway.
OK we knows that, go on.😮
Hemi or non Hemi for just a stage 1 kit?
Like it says in the video, I prefer the Hemi for stock or very mild builds.
@@bahnzai7313 Thanks man!
Hemi
15:36 so wait do I have this correct?
The Hemi has a dish/bowl groove to the roof of the combustion chamber and the Non-hemi roof is flat.. but the Hemi has a flat top piston whereas the non-hemi has a dish/bowl topped piston? So basically the combustion chamber is the same shape on both motors. The only difference is where the "bowl" /dish portion of the combustion area is located. On the Hemi its located in the roof of the combustion chamber, and on the non-hemi it's located in the base of the combustion chamber (the piston top/"dished piston").
Is that true? So the non-hemi has a "dished" piston... That I didnt know about. So does it actually matter where the dished shape of the combustion chamber is located roof vs floor? Judging from what I've heard in the comments with the dyno machine the hemi doesnt seem to bring anything more to the table that the non-hemi doesnt already deliver.
Very interesting and informative video. Thanks for sharing. TILSN
Yes, the overall volume of the combustion chambers end up in the same ballpark. Hemi gets a flat top and non-Hemi gets a dished piston. The short block I use in the video is a non-Hemi, with the dished piston.
Chris...the non hemi-head has a raised 'Pent' or ' Wedge' head like most of the 50's,60's & 1970's cars with 1/2 the combustion chamber in the dished piston top - Olds used in very effectively.T
@@bahnzai7313 You cencored the other thread with ' fatbuffyguy' user before I could have the right of reply to someone I was intentionally helping out. ,( My mail spoke for itself) removing the thread before I could give a brief right of reply is communism at its finest & not how the fore father's built America😶 Trev NZ,Talk about bias !
Actually, friend, I didn’t edit anything. Perhaps CZcams has some comment moderation algorithm? Cheers.
@@bahnzai7313 wouldn't surprise me, thanks for the heads-up & no offence
What is the difference in flywheels and crankshafts? People that want to add electric start from Hondas would like to know.
The size and shape of the taper is different. Predator flywheels don’t interchange with each other, nor with standard “clone” flywheels.
@@bahnzai7313 what does the honda flywheel fit, the hemi or non hemi. I want to convert a predator to electric start. I have several non hemi versions.
Neither; clone is a different taper. I’ve heard of people really aggressively lapping clone flywheels to fit non-Hemi crank snouts, but would not recommend it; no matter how well you lap it on, there’s going to be an oversize bit that draws down onto the taper when torqued, which could cause the flywheel to crack and shatter. I know I’ve seen Predator flywheels with charging magnets, but haven’t seen any with an electric starter ring. (Where would the starter mount??).
We use a handheld electric starter on our high-compression race engines, perhaps that might be a simpler solution?
What about the difference?😮
Is it just better to buy a 224?
There’s no replacement for displacement, and it’s a great value for the money. It’ll still need some modifications, but as a straight-valve engine it’s much simpler.
My box has a picture of a hemi, there is a hemi engine inside, but the box has part number 069730 (not a sticker).
Yup.
NON- HEMI FOR THE WIN
The non-hemi had a hemi in the box! Box was sealed! Even the sticker on the engine is the wrong sticker! Problem is I bought an electric start for the No-hemi! Dang it!
The hemi head should flow more especially at high rpm! The valves open into the center of the bore!!. Definitely unshrouded. If the valves were much larger or the bite was smaller, the hemi would make more of a difference
I wished I knew about the handhold or I would have not got screwed! I had to drive a long way!
Can I swap a non hemi head to a hemi ?
Yes; however the dowel pin locations are different and you’ll need non-Hemi pushrods.
@@bahnzai7313 thank you this video was very informative
@@bahnzai7313 how do you overcome the dowel pins being in different location?
@@bahnzai7313 so can you swap the flat top hemi piston into the non hemi? without problems?
Yes, but performance will suffer, as the Hemi piston is 20 thousandths shorter, so using it on a standard length rod in a non-Hemi block will result in excessive depth in the bore, and very low compression.
To use the Hemi piston in a non-Hemi block you’ll want a +20 rod. Alternatively, find a flat top piston with a .570 compression height instead of the .550 Hemi piston.
i bought a predator online with the nonhemi part number,i ended up WITH a hemi that even had the nonhemi part number on the fan shroud,after i had allready ordered a shitton of parts for a nonhemi...pissed
Yup. Thanks Harbor Freight, *you bastards*!!!! I’m just buying 224’s from them these days; it’s a way better engine in every way.
TYTYTYvm alot answered : u da man !
Here from fb
Clever Cloggs....so what ? At least he doesn't pump his ego, answers his mail & doesn't preach the Lord though his tutorials ! Trev New Zealand
I got a hemi with the item number of the non hemi
Yup. Buy 224's instead; they're better engines in pretty much every way.
The parts for the non hemi are easier to find and cheaper.
That hasn’t been my experience; if anything, because the cams and flywheels interchange with 196 Clone parts, the Hemi’s are probably easier to find parts for. About the only thing on a Hemi that’s more expensive would be the category of “Cheap Rocker Arms”, which are much more expensive for a Hemi. However, once you get into the “Not Cheap Rocker Arms” territory, the prices even out. Again, just my experience.
Harley's have hemi heads they run ok !
I love Hemi heads, they have a number of significant advantages in terms of port shape and valve shrouding. They just introduce a lot of clearance issues on clone type engines.
I'm bucking the system because everyone that says a built hemi can't be as good as a built straight valve. Check out my vid of running against a Triumph in dirt drags. Good informative video though. 👍
One of my fastest Outlaw Kart builds is a Hemi! It’s also got at least 15-20 hours of machine work in it though, which would definitely be beyond the scope of most folks who are new to the hobby. (I mean, the audience for this video is people who don’t know the difference between a Hemi and Non...).
Thanks for watching, feedback is appreciated!
I got a “modified” class hemi myself. I love the hemis. Lots of calculating clearances and what not but I’m happy with it.
Definitely, a novice isn t going to get the same results from the hemi without blowing a few up and assuming their junk. Or just giving up after getting parts that don t work because they didn't "math".just like people that say a turbo can't work on a 212, they can but rules must be broken.
@@drakrazerclaw5146 Build it once, build it right, you don't have to blow them up in the process.T. NZ
Well, I dropped my head at the machine shop to get the spring pockets cut for 36lb springs. The 26lb springs didn't like 0.318" lift and 8800 RPM and started breaking, not that I'm really surprised. I'm sure I was getting valve bounce, and if anything else I can get duals but I'd be leery of pushrod deflection.
Just pop a non hemi head on a hemi block
Haha the rest of the free world, love it
You're very biased against hemi motors.. now I know not much about either one.
I guess your point is the hemi cannot build to be high performing. So why confuse the two motors? Then again I could be wrong but I hear the bias against one from the other...
Yes. I hate Hemi motors, with a deep, almost all consuming passion. I hate them in the same way I hate broccoli, the word "moist", and Donald Rumsfeld. I hate them for their stupid limitations, for their unlikely popularity which seems to be due solely to the marketing value of the term "Hemi", and for giving me a little Love/Hate Boner because of their nice castings on an otherwise Wrong Headed Engineering Exercise. Your Ol' Uncle Pink: Biased, for sure.
This video could have been 2 minutes!!!!
Awesome video very informative I subscribed to the channel. I’m just getting in to small engines and will take any advice especially from an engine builder like yourself.