How Chinese MiG-15 Pilots Entered The Korean War
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- čas přidán 1. 12. 2023
- When People's Republic of China decided to enter the Korean War, it's air force was a little more than a year old. Chinese leadership still estimated that their ground component was decisive and the air component would be gradually developed as they went. With strong Soviet support, Chinese MiG-15 pilots began to fly combat sorties over North Korea and in January 1951, they first met enemy aircraft. But the token force would soon be withdrawn and Chinese MiGs only appeared in combat zone again in September of 1951. The 4th Aviation division which fought for about two months claimed over 20 enemy aircraft shot down but how many of these can be confirmed? Find out in this video.
Main sources:
- Xiaoming Zhang - Red Wings over the Yalu: China, the Soviet Union, and the Air War in Korea
amzn.to/47BSEtg
- Stuart Britton and Igor Seidov - Red Devils over the Yalu: A Chronicle of Soviet Aerial Operations in the Korean War 1950-53
amzn.to/3GoijJL
- Thomas McKelvey Cleaver - MiG Alley: The US Air Force in Korea, 1950-53
amzn.to/3N75F5Y
.- Robert F. Futrell - The United States Air Force in Korea, 1950-1953
amzn.to/3N5ZY8a
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"Interloper" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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#militaryaviation #militaryaviationhistory #mig15 #plaaf - Věda a technologie
Not all the aircraft variants and markings are 100% historically correct. Original footage also doesn't represent the exact units mentioned. In both cases, the closest possible options were used. Thank you for your understanding.
Have you seen the list of flying aces in WW2?
Go take a look please.
Overclaim? lol
@@sbkarajan No, I've never seen anything like that. In fact, I think there weren't any aces in WWII.
@@showtime112 The list is in Wiki, take a look please.
Also Korean War and Vietnam War too.
@@showtime112 Also check out W4LK (4 = A)
@@showtime112 EAST in YT and tell me what you think of China after seeing that, thank you.
This whole era of aviation is incredibly interesting. I can only imagine the difficulty encountered when trying to train pilots in a completely different language and level of aviating experience.
Very cool (and informative) video as always Showtime.
Oh yes, the early jet period is incredibly dynamic. Language barrier must have been a serious problem. That scene where Chinese pilots can't keep up with the Soviets shows how hard it was to communicate and coordinate in the air as well.
There's only one language and that is understanding flight controls. Flying an airplane is applied muscle memory. When you pull back on the stick, houses get smaller. When you keep pulling back on the stick they get bigger. Stick right, roll right.
Stick left, roll left. Push the stick forward and you dive. Pull it back and you climb. 🤠
If you add up all the kills the pilots report. it usually figures out to be more planes than their enemy actually had.
There is often such tendency :)
Another awesome video...once again saturday just got better.👍👍👍
Thanks once again!
@@showtime112 most welcome ,sir.👍👍👍
Coming from the Cold War era it's hard for me to get a grip on all the intel we have now on what happened in Korea. For decades we had no idea the Russians were flying those missions. This is the first treatise I've seen on Chinese operations in this kind of detail. Well done.
Thank you! I think both sides found it convenient to pretend that Soviets were not there to keep things from escalating further. Chinese involvement is still less known than American or even Soviet but some sources in English can be found.
@@showtime112 : Exactly that. Once the Soviets detonated their own atomic bomb, open war between the USA and the USSR became politically very difficult, despite the US nuclear superiority in the early Cold War.
The public didn't know but the US military knew the entire time Russian's were flying and they could tell all the way down to the individual aircraft because of the way they were flying, but the US pilots were always told to keep their mouths shut about it because if the US military acknowledged that they'd been shooting down Russian's then Russia would have been obligated to do something about it, there's also the famous example we know of nowadays of the US Navy pilot who shot down something like 5 MIG's in an epic engagement that he couldn't be credited for because it was classified top secret.
There were even US military ground controllers who could tell by the way they saw the MIG's operating on their radar screens that Russian's were flying them, the most famous example being Albert J "Ajax" Baumler, he flew in the Spanish Civil War with the Republicans and afterwards as an AVG pilot in China then in the USAAF for the remainder of WW2, during Korean War he was a US Air Force ground controller who knew by name some of the Russian pilots who were blips on his radar screen because he knew their individual styles from having flown with them during the Spanish Civil War, he famously used to say "Those are my boys" when he'd recognize them from their maneuvers.
@@dukecraig2402 Great info. Thanks :)
Another great video, thanks.
Thank you very much!
Loved this video! Very fascinating era in aviation history. Also - great b/w filter - looking really good.
I'm happy to hear it, thank you! And I'm satisfied with the way the gun camera effect came out, although it can still be improved :)
Thanks!
Thank you very much for another donation!
Thanks for another great video .
Thank you for watching!
Sounds to me that the one thing the Maoist pilots learned very early on was how to pad their stats in order to look good when they returned home.
That's probably a part of it. Although historically, many pilots from various sides in wars claimed kills honestly believing them to be true. Or at least possible and their commanders might decide to 'confirm' them to make the unit look good.
or someone is just being led by the nose
Great video 😊
Thank you, Chups!
Overall, this was pretty good, from a historical and production standpoint. Like + sub.
Thank you very much for that!
Loved this video
Awesome! Nice video
Thank you very much!
Awesome video bro.. cool graphics👍✈️
Thank you very much!
Nice video 👍
How nice of you to say that! :)
Overclaiming is natural but I would not be surprised if such also had some political sanction as well. For such a fledgling service, giving them a morale boost was probably part of the considerations.
A good video.
Thank you! Yes, I agree that some morale boosting was probably considered a good thing by the leadership.
One thing I do not over claim is how many Showtime 112 videos I have viewed. Lots. 👍
Do you have evidence to support it? 😁
EXCELLENT as usual. The lack of proper training made the difference in many cases, as happens very often, Chuck Yeager mentioned it in his book. Thanks for bringing back this historical event in your GREAT WORK.
Once again, seeing your comment makes me feel good! Thanks!
Increíble, wuahhh!!! Qué buen vídeo.
Gracias!
Thank you very much!
Really interesting period when few classes of planes had an opportunity to engage each other. Propeller or jet driven, straight wings vs swept wings. Could you consider to preprare such movie (Mig 15 vs Corsair or Hawker Fury).
Some of the combat you suggested will be covered in the future, thanks for the comment!
What happened in the korean war was really interesting because we got to see newer aircraft getting smashed by older ones, because the focus moved from maneuvrability to altitude and speed
A lot was certainly happening in those turbulent years.
@@showtime112 yea, especially because of the great transition to fighter jets
Having the best fighter jet in the world (MiG-15) can't compensate for it being flown by an inadequately trained and inexperienced pilot - unless the technological gap is enormous (e.g. Chinese pilot in MiG-15, US pilot in P-51).
@@timonsolus true, but also maneuvrability was greatly reduced because of the speeds
Great video. Congratulations and thanks for the lesson
Thanks a lot for the positive feedback!
Great story on the air war in Korea. When communists first fielded jet aircraft, the UN still had prop aircraft. Would be interesting if you could make some videos on some of these jet vs prop aircraft encounters. In the movie Devotion, USN Corsair shot down a MIG-15. Not sure if that was real or modified for the movie.
Thank you! I intend to cover a lot more about the Koran conflict including some of those 'asymmetric' battles. UN forces were using plenty of prop aircraft throughout the War but in CAS role or similar.
@@showtime112 A USMC Corsair piloted by Capt Jesse Folmar did shoot down a MIG-15 but he was shot down by other MIGs. He became the first pilot of a prop aircraft to shoot down an enemy jet.
Hawker Seafury enters the chat
Excellent presentation by Showtime 112 with vintage gun kill camera film views. Love the nostalgic look of the presentation. Job well done! ♠️🎩🎯🎱🏁🇺🇲🇮🇱🇺🇦🔱🌻🏵️💮🌸🌼🌺🏴☠️🏹
Thank you, just like all the time for the early view and comment! I'm quite happy with the gun camera effect although there's still room for improvement :)
I just finished Chris Shores books on the Malta air war in WW2 and was astonished by how much over claiming was made. The Royal Navies Fleet Air Arm seemed to be the most cautious regarding kill claims, however.
The "Overclaim" was a rule for ALL in Korea......About the chinese planes in combat a very good book is "Red Wings over the Yalu" of Xiaoming Yang, follow the CCP line of course, but have a lot of new information.
So it seems. I'm sure plenty of those were not deliberately false. The book you mention is quite interesting, it was one of my main sources.
My uncle was a soldier in the US army in Korea. He said the Chinese army chased them all the way down the peninsula.
Yes, the initial Chinese assault was quite devastating.
The Chinese pilots, many were trained for American prop planes such as the Mustang in the United States for the Nationalist forces who then “switched” over to the communists. Pappy Boyington, the Marine Ace of WW2 , noted this.
Yes, plenty of assistance was given to the Nationalist forces during WW2. I guess many of those pilots probably thought that the only alternative was death or prison. Some of them might have been communist sympathizers but it's a complex issue.
But they did have MiG-9's as well.
They did but apparently, they were never used in the War. It would have been interesting though. MiG-9 vs F-80 would have been nice to see.
Seem to remember a couple being shot down by British pilots flying propeller powered tyhoons or sea furies
Such claims exist. I hope to cover those stories in the future.
With all the German Swept Wing Technology captured at the end of WW2 and the U.S. builds Jet Aircraft with straight wings, Einsteins best Quote "Stupidity has no Limitations".
Excelente 👍👏👏👏👏👏🇧🇷
Thank you very much!
Showtime112 it must have extremely difficult to fly with Chinese and Russia fighters in a joint combine air action battle over North Korea imagine speaking Russian and Chinese languages confusing to the both side pilots while the American and British commonwealth Airforces speaking English.
Yes, even if Soviets learned some Chinese as some sources suggest, in the heat of battle it might have been hard to remember the correct phrases and pronounce them well enough to be understood over radio.
US personnel listening to their radio chatter said the Soviets would accidentally blurt out calls and curses in Russian when things got hot. Understandably.
Did any of the Russian pilots fly Mig 15s in Soviet AF markings, or were they all in North Korean or Chinese markings?
Soviet insignia wasn't used, it was North Korean. Initially, I think they used Chinese.
@@showtime112 : I read that the Soviet pilots even dressed in North Korean flight suits, and learned a few Korean phrases to use over the radio.
@@timonsolus During a hot battle, Russians are very easy to distinguish XD
Everything I have ever seen about the numbers claimed, or even recorded, by both sides during the Korean war (and even the later Vietnam war) are highly dubious.
After decades, some more credible figures start creeping out - but the degree to which both sides outright lied about any sort of real numbers is pretty staggering.
"Official" numbers simply can't be relied on.
The ol saying... The first casualty of war is the truth.
Official statistics are always interesting but yes, they must be 'filtered'.
It is wrong to suggest the only, or main, reason for overclaiming was 'outright lies'. A tiny minority of pilots did lie to get glory. But air combat is insanely confusing, fast and difficult to track. Intelligence officers after debrief have to try to make sense of what they are told.
Now we can often compare claims against recorded losses, and in many theatres in different wars, inflation rates are very high. Please don't be annoyed that you don't have accurate figures- it's not personal.
At bed with stinking cold, now go to TV
Sorry to hear it, I hope you get better soon. It's that time of the year I guess.
@@showtime112 yes à big Cold. Now in way to ..cure Have seen on TV your vidéo. Very vintage. Next time mig15 vs B29💥
Great graphics, interesting story telling, not a great narration voice.
Can't help you there, it's the only voice I have :)
Hello mate, i sent you some info found in aviation safety. Now are in your email with official report.
Lt Simpson was dead later. But dont know reason.
Thank you for vintage gunsight
Thanks for the mails. Yes, Simpson apparently ejected but eventually died. I like the gunsight effects too. I need to study real ones and see what else I can do to improve them.
Fun fact the highest scoring Korean war ace was Russian
One have to wonder if the Chinese ever shot down any aircraft at all during their early involvement in the Korean War.
They definitely did shot down severals Sabres in 1952-53 when they finally ready to replace the Soviet pilot as the main air force operating for the communist force.
But their early "kills" seems sketchy as fuck.
Of all these claims, the first F-84 seems like the most probable one. Some of these American airplanes might have been damaged, perhaps even written off after landing but kills are stretched.
@@showtime112 There's a blog I like to hang out at, where this and the USSR claim for F86s is teased out pretty thoroughly. Long story short, the numbers of operations Sabers was rather low, so any losses even remotely close to what was being claimed would have wiped out the two wings pretty quickly. On the other hand, the USSR had a VERY substantial numerical advantage, a substantial performance edge (altitude by the MiGs, early on) and ground control radar (as well as that Manchurian sanctuary of dubious safety) and they got pretty badly shot up==maybe not as high as the 13 to 1 claimed during the war, but still pretty substantial.
Usually at a higher altitude.
😂😂😂
Allied pilots also overclaimed to a ridiculous extent. 12-1 kill rate in Korea?? Ahhh not so much. Maybe 2:1...Maybe...
Initially, the claims were nowhere near that. In later stages of the war when there were no experienced Soviet pilots, the claims were quite favorable for the UN side.
The day we can get a Korean War map...
Put me down for the preorder :)
Chinese telegram “ 2 inexperience Chinese pilot vs 100 enemy plane “
Surely the enemy plane would have 20 mid air collisions
You know how totalitarian regimes always exaggerate :)
@@showtime112 Definitely 😄 my grandfather immigrated out of China in the early 30’s and we understand the CCP hyperbole
Another excellent video. I am not at all familiar with the air war over Korea, much less the exploit of the Chinese pilots.
Thank you! It's a relatively 'forgotten' conflict but it took place in an incredibly dynamic era for military aviation.
to this day, north korea uses these jets 😂😂😂
I heard the same thing 😁
I noticed that you initially began doing air combat in the jet age and have gradually run out of interesting dogfights from the late Cold War and post-Cold War periods. Now you are doing some Korean War air combat. Why not research some more obscure piston-era air combat from lesser known conflicts like the Russian Civil War, the Russo-Finnish War, the Spanish Civil War, and the Sino-Japanese War of 1937-41? These would highlight some more hidden developments in air combat between the two World Wars.
Not exactly. There are plenty of topics to explore in the later Cold War era. Some of them weren't covered because I'm waiting for proper assets to appear (such as F-4, MiG-17 or MiG-23). But the Korean War was first covered years ago. I do it because I find it interesting, not because I nave nothing else to do. As for your suggestions, I did a couple of videos about the Russo-Finnish War focusing on Oiva Tuominen. There will be more. The Sino-Japanese War and the Spanish Civil War are considered and they will be covered sometime in the future.
👍
Hvala na komentaru!
1 to 10, that's what they say in Top Gun
Dog fights in Korea were very similar to jousting matches on horseback
US fighters never flew into China
Chinese never flew south of the DMZ
American pilots did on occasions fly across the Chinese border. They weren't allowed to do so but they did nevetheless.
I would be a little less critical of some of these bombastic claims, if there was any gun camera footage to confirm! Or any other evidence evidence for that matter.
I really don't think this is overly critical. Xiaoming Zhang, author of the book which was the main source (a Chinese national, his father served in the PLAAF) says that these early kills are questionable, it's not just my personal opinion.
are you serious????? It’s all very easy to “draw”, especially today. czcams.com/video/CMM0YkjgcZI/video.html
Hasn't changed much.
Doesn't matter how they entered..They got their butts kicked big time!
German design....
Yes, there was very little Soviet know-how in the MiG-15 design. But then again, even Sabre relied a lot on German research.
The Mig s were better than the Sabres and could fly higher in the Mig Alley which cost many US planes. At the end of WWII only two nations had jet aircraft, the German ones were more advanced than the British and the Soviets had none. A Soviet official asked Stalin for permission to try to obtain a Rolls Royce jet engine and he answered :" What fool will sell us his secrets, but you may try." The British prime minister Clemens Atlee wanting to reduce US influence and ingratiate himself with Stalin allowed the sale of a RR jet engine with plans and the able Mikoyan and Gurevitch used them well. Churchill would never have done this treason which cost many Allied lives.
The UN forces also over claimed.
The military cooperation between the China communist of Mao and the soviets have started on 1936 during the civil war against the nationalist.
But on 1937, Staline helped the nationalist of Tchang Kai-check to fight against the japonese who invaded China, before the arrival of the american flying tigers of the general Chennault.
After 1945, Soviets helped exclusively the communist for winning the civil war against the nationalist and it was done on 1949.
On 1950, Staline was agree for helping Mao to give a hand to the North Corean.
And the reason why the CHINESE entered in war beside the North Corean is to protect their hydroelectric dam on Yalu river. For the same reason, the capture of water, the Chinese have invaded the Tibet on 1950 which is one of the country of the world that have a largest quantity of pure water in the world due to the melting of the himalaya glaciers.
J'ai fouille un peu aviation safety et ya compte rendu du 21 septembre 51 et du 25 septembre. Par contre le Lt Simpson est mort peu de temps après sa capture.
Les premiers pilotes russes se faisaient passer pour des chinois ou des nord coréens. Ils avaient une tablette avec mots en phonétique pour correspondre mais leur accent tranchait et dans feu de action pour prévenir un ailier ... passer au russe. Et même quand un mig était abattu, au bout du parachute le gabarit russe était différent du chinois
@@dominiqueroudier9401
Les américains appelaient les pilotes russes les "Honchos", un mot qui ressemble à cela.
@@jeannezehner9450 je confirme le mot Honcho
@@jeannezehner9450devrait continuer la vidéo en faisant Mig15 vs B29 ,..Le mardi noir
Stalin's support of Chinese Nationalist forces is quite interesting, I hope I'll cover some of the fighting done in Soviet aircraft against Japan. Stalin thought it would be good to destabilize and war down Japan.
I didn't know the story about the Yalu dam.
I doubt if the -UN- US Air Force will admit to those loses.
They generally don't change such things but there are exceptions (Speicher's F/A-18 in Desert Storm for example).
@@showtime112They did admit one F-80C piloted by Howard E. Odell was shot down by a North Korean Yak-9 in 1950. Apparently, Odell is still MIA.
Nations like China have, in my opinion, rather severe inferiority complexes vis a vis other nations. One method of compensating is over claiming their ability when in conflict with other nations.
It's a very human thing to do.
China suffered what they call a century of humiliation by Western powers. It is possible that they wanted real hard to prove they can compare with them.
Over claiming was common in WW2. German and American claims were widely exaggerated. You fire in an enemy aircraft and you see smoke. Did it go down ?
The US Air Force’s Sabre pilots claimed a total air-to-air kill count that current evidence tells us was five to TEN TIMES higher than the actual score. Nations like america have, in my opinion, rather severe superiority complexes. Although it’s a very human thing to do, we’ve taken it at face value for long enough.
MIG 15 maintained a 4 to 1 kill ratio over the inferior Sabre US pilots admit it was almost impossible to shoot down often emptying their guns to no effect. And you all believed it was 10 to 1 for the Sabre gotta love propaganda.
American original claims might not be true but I don't think we should go to the opposite extreme.
Video decisamente croccante! 👍🍀👻👽🤩😈
Thank you very much!
👍
Puno hvala, Medo!