"Abuser" at Home - "Respected Christian Man" at Church.
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- čas přidán 9. 08. 2022
- I don't pretend my advice here is going to "fix" things for everyone suffering an abusive spouse. I'm just trying to give the best answers I can, which I believe are biblical, to offer some measure of help. Please seek godly counsel from multiple people if you're in an abusive situation. It's ok for you to get help.
My website BibleThinker.org
Twenty years ago, my husband left our family for a long term affair. I went to the church. Three elders spoke to my husband, but he blew them off. This came before the pastor, who brought it before the church. My husband was ejected. I was supported by the congregation through my divorce. This was the first time I ever felt believed and affirmed in my life. Thank God for Godly brothers and sisters in Christ. Ill always appreciate the strength that was given to my children and myself.
This has just happened in South Carolina. It’s all over national news. He divorced his first wife, started a new church and literally drove the second wife over the edge. He fooled his church for years. My Dad always said that men know men. The men in the church need to stand up even if it’s against a “pastor”.
I was that husband. Praise God people were praying for us. My wife was praying for me and deep down I knew I wasn’t walking in the spirit. I had a friend who corrected me after hearing me speak to my wife in a demeaning way. I was upset but couldn’t deny the truth he spoke. It’s been a long road but this book called “ The Meaning of Marriage” completely demolished my idea of marriage… I cried, repented and prayed for change. I love my wife! I have joy in this marriage! I live to serve her and our kids. The Parallel between us the Christ is so much like my marriage with my wife. This video is on point. God is so so good❤️
Thank God for your humility and repentance. You are one of very few…
What you say actually highlights another important point, that Christian husbands also benefit from their brothers (another male, really) in the faith that help them stay anchored and accountable.
@@framboise595 and Jesus said a man must love his wife so much that he would lay down his life for her. A biblical marriage is a man and a wife together to glorify God and have love for each other. It’s a servitude to each other, not the woman toward the man or the man toward the woman
What if the man only sins. Is the woman to sin also? You think God will give her a pass or is the husband leading his family to hell?
Thanks for sharing. I think we are all capable of becoming this person. Especially without real authentic open relationships with other Godly wise men.
It doesn’t matter how you confront an abuser. They will not tolerate being called out. They’re narcissistic and refuse to take responsibility for their behavior.
@preyr631most abusers are narcissistic tho. you kind of almost have to be to be to abuse the one closest to and most intimate with you (your wife/hubby)
I would say that you still need to go through the Biblical process of church discipline
@@Tennysystem except when all the church leaders are in on it. if they are, run.
Prideful abusers can harm you behind closed doors after being called out at church. Fast & pray 1st.
It's important to ask them if the two of you can get help or counseling. If they say no, resist and get angry, make a decision(!) The general practice is to get to physical safety first with a plan(!). Learn the pattern. See if your situation/behavior aligns w/ the pattern. If so, you know what is likely to happen. If you are being abused, they left already.
I was married to an abusive man. There was a nice facade he put on at church, but another person at home. I think some of the other wives could see a problem when he was so controlling that he would not let me drive myself to the monthly dessert night at a local restaurant. He had to control when I got there and when I left. I tried talking to the senior pastor one day to get a "there, there, now" and be sent home. Eventually he tried to kill me, and the church's response was that they just needed to get us all to sit down together to talk everything out. I asked what part of this man wants me dead did they not understand??? He also immediately filled for divorce right after that. I was the one forced to leave the church for asking that question. I was told that was insulting an elder of the church.
One point, Michael...a woman can put herself in more danger from her abusive husband by trying to talk with him about the abuse no matter the tone or circumstance.
If the store had not intervened that night when he tried to purchase that gun, I would not be alive to write this.
Now 20 years later that church has grown up and realized the severity of it all and helps abused women.
I'm sorry you went through that! I escaped abuse too but I had no church, it was just God who rescued me after 20 years!
Nice to hear if a church maturing. Understand you completely. Only God kept us alive.
My wife is just about as bad as your husband. Whenever you see a hot-tempered person, the chances are high that they are an abusive person....probably a stone cold Narcissist. It isn't always the man. I'm in a hotel as I am writing this, to get away from her abuse. People too often expect/demand that men just sit and take the abuse...because they are usually bigger. I can defend myself well enough, but I have to show complete restraint (even when taking sucker punches, kicks, thrown things, pepper spray, etc) while everyone around me gives her a free pass to act like a monster when she is angry.
What about abused men
@@LinkfromTLOZ28 abuse is wrong period! I only shared my traumatic experience. My experience was so horrible that I don't even want to date anyone lest I fall for another wolf in sheep's clothing. I hope no man or woman has to go through an abusive relationship like that. I hope if someone is caught in one that they can count on the support of their church. If anyone needs help and support through a situation, it is someone in an abusive relationship, terminal illness and grief. The physical, emotional, mental and even spiritual struggles of these groups are very difficult and isolating. That love is crucial.
I'm tired of people who go to church every Sunday just to feel good about themselves then leave and be the same terrible person before they walked into church.
Says something about Protestant churches if you ask me...
It says something about the person and their belief in Jesus/ walk with Jesus.
Yes the 'church' is full of sinners just like us.
What does a Catholic church do differently so their members don't do this?
@@WolvesBaseballNine - watching how people behaved in the church versus how they behaved in the parking lot is why my husband left the Catholic Church. They couldn’t even control their ugly human nature long enough to get home. This is not a Catholic or protestant problem. It is a human problem. Incidentally, one of the most devout Catholics that he knew was an adulterer, Bigamist, and abandoned a wife with six children and no means of support, nor any clue of where he was. And he lied to his new family as well. Heartbreaking. He felt an incredibly strong connection to the virgin of Guadalupe.
Most people don't realize that when you're dealing with a controlling narcissist, the conventional approach can backfire on you. If you reveal your feelings, they use that against you. You need genuine support from people who understand this dynamic.
You need trauma informed therapists.
Yes. The ideal counselor in this situation would be a Christian who's been trained to understand personality disorders and trauma. It's so complicated.
Amen! Most pastors and counselors just don't get it. It's all too easy for the narcissist to fool them and make the suffering spouse look like the crazy one.
@@Anita-sn3ug exactly!!! But a narcissist can’t fool a really good therapist!!!
Even then the woman is the only one who can really change the situation.
I don't think the woman can change the situation. She can change her response to the situation, but if the narcissist doesn't perceive a problem they're not going to change. It's so common for women to be counseled that they're causing the narcissist to act the way he does, and that it's all on her to change. Of course, the gender roles can be reversed--I'm speaking in general terms.
A narcissist is incapable of listening and actually hearing anything ever. They love you and think you are the sun and the moon if you agree with them and do what they want. If you disagree you are worse than the dirt on the bottom of their shoes. They scream, they gaslight, they give the silent treatment. Whatever they have to do to get you to comply. Watched my mom live this out for all my 45 years. She died 2 months ago; thank God she's free of him. He says he's a Christian, but no one knows he's this split person. Sweet as pie outside of the home and a monster in it. If he's a Christian where is the Fruit of the Spirit?
"Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and don't do what I say?" - Luke 6:46
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ - Matthew 7:21
I’m iffy about adding labels to people’s sins, as if it’s an inseparable part of their identity.
The person who shows these traits are being weighed down with sins and are not in obedience to God in any way.
They should be treated as unbelievers who need the Gospel preached to them so they can repent.
Only then can God do His work of transforming them to look more like His Son.
kind of hard as God created us to be sexual beings.
@Don’t come for me unless I send for you 🤷 the Muslim will take over if Christian stop having kids its double edge sword.
@@francismarion6400 but you got tools to stop.
I had an abusive Wife. First marriage. I gave it all I had. She was bipolar and loved it . Yet when I went to our pastor , I just didn't do enough. Finally she bit me hard (faking a hug) and saw the Doc who suggested leaving. I did. She was going to kill me.
Remarried to the love of my life. Who passed away àfter 32 years. God blessed that marriage. I look forward to heaven and seeing her again.
To me, that was abandonment (on her part). As soon as she intentionally inflicted physical injury and made you fear for your life, she demonstrated that she cared as little for you as someone who left the house for "cigarettes" and never came back. I'm glad that you are safe, and I'm sorry for the loss of your second wife.
Not to be a downer, but I hope you know the context in which you will meet your wife in heaven.
There is no marriage given in heaven, so you will not meet as lovers but as fellow believers. Even still, I hope you can see her again.
@@jakelee7083 yes I know but we will be there. With the Lord.
@@jakelee7083 ...not worth saying. I lost the Love of my life also. Very much know the scripture you misquoted as it isn't applicable. The person said they looked forward to seeing her again. Didn't mention marriage again. We need hope in these days more than ever. I hope we know our loves again. Maybe we won't specifically. I know my husband is in heaven and not in a chair anymore. That is it as the Bible isn't specific but we have inferences. Maybe we love everyone so much with a spiritual connection (being God Himself) that we won't know them specifically. I sure would like to hug a few people and give my gratitude to them for being who they were here.
Especially a problem when the spouse is a professional Christian like a pastor.
Yes ,the man I am referring is a Pastor but finally see behind the mask ,I was horrified !
Exactly!!!
I've never heard that term, professional Christian! 😂
:(
@@GestOfAll I mean it’s their job to teach about Christianity which is a profession
I lived through this. Everything was done biblically. I went to multiple Pastors and church leaders who didn't believe me. 1 former Pastor told my husband (now ex husband) if she was my wife I would divorce her . I also disabled. The marriage ended . Years of forced isolation, verbal and physical abuse. My ex is now serving time in prison. He says he is a Christian now. It's taken many years to get to a healthy head space . God's love pierced my soul. I'm currently at a place where I'm willing to consider marriage again. But not with my ex. Oh noooooo. I've forgiven him and the past is the past. Only bring this testimony up very rarely.
God's always with us no matter how hard or long the troubles last.
😭
I'm so sorry you went through so much!! I'm glad you are in a better place now. God is always with us. It's just so weird that so much bad stuff happens in the setting of the church, but the stuff that people do may be bad, but God is always good and always with us! God bless you!!
I regret not reporting my ex to the police. The church has historically not managed these situations adequately and has failed to protect victims. It may sound unchristian to report extreme behaviour to the police and I thought it uncharitable and a step too far at the time (despite suffering a miscarriage due to physical assault by my ex). But actions have consequences and it sounds like, if your ex has truly become a Christian, going to prison was the best thing that could have happened to him. Unfortunately, as long as the church continues to be a safe haven for abusers, nothing will change.
@anta3612 totally agree. As hard as it is for us to come forward unfortunately some in the church don't understand. Maybe it's a generational thing I'm not sure. When my mom was growing up women were wrongly taught this was accepted behavior by some men. We know know it's abuse .
I can say I'm about 80% sure my ex know the Lord now but only God know for sure. Still we live with the scars. I wish no one would have to go through this. I am glad that God has helped me talk to others going through abuse .
Christians aren't perfect but God is and no one went through more than Jesus. Grateful Jesus loved my through the pain . Always was and is with me .
God may strengthen your soul and help you up. What a horrible story.
This works with normal people. It backfires with people diagnosed with personality disorders: NPD, BPD, etc.
Such people might have to reach "rock bottom" in order to realize the error of their ways, and even once they get turned onto the right path, it'll be a battle for them not to revert to those old patterns again.
Basically they are unrepentantly evil.
Agreed. This approach works for a logical, normal person, who just needs to adjust their behaviour. If my mother had exposed my father’s abuse, I am certain it would not have ended well for her.
Can one be indwelled with the Spirit and show these traits? Once the Spirit is within you cannot go on sinning without a deep conviction of it that sends you to your face in repentance.
Anyone, regardless of whatever labeled disorder they have, can be changed by the Spirit once they have come to faith in Christ and confessed their sins.
Those who return to their sins over and over without sorrow are not believers.
From such turn away. Leave room for wrath. Overcome evil with good.
Exposing/embarrassing an abuser will almost always lead to retaliation towards the spouse and/or children (hurting the children to retaliate against the spouse). Narcissistic rage is dangerous for those closest to the abuser. We went to counsellors and pastors, and the last pastor I discussed this with was convinced that my spouse had “really changed” that time. No, he hadn’t, he had just put on sheep’s clothing to convince that pastor, and that pastor was of no help to me. My spouse told me that if I ever left, I was not taking the kids. I did leave, and tried taking the kids, but he gaslit them into thinking I was the bad parent for leaving; one by one they started returning to me but it took YEARS, and I’m still waiting - it’s been almost 7 years - for my last little lamb to come home to me. I’ve watched several videos you’ve done on abuse in marriage, and I’ve come away with the sense that while you understand the serious sinful gravity of the situation that needs to be addressed by the church, I don’t get the sense that you understand how deep the abuse and control go, and how utterly manipulative and destructive abusive people are.
I agree.
I agree
I also agree, the true narcissist is a nightmare, there is no change with these people, if it takes years for them to put up a front to keep control they will do it. And unfortunately kids learn some of this, my heart goes out to you. Going through those steps with a church or outside source the narcissist will decide his family needs to change churches after trying to convince everyone it’s the abused that is the problem. And behind closed doors is an absolute nightmare.
I'm so sorry you went through that. I suffered, yes, but he never tried to take our one child away from me. That's the worst thing a person can do to a parent and I think a lot of people stay in really horrible situations because they know they could possibly lose their kids. When one parent weaponizes their own children against the other parent--you know--that is an evil person.
Agree as well
This is how bad the 'church' has become.
I DID exactly what Matthew 18 said about confronting an hateful and abusive 'sister in Christ' only to be abused FURTHER by the elders and ejected from their midst!
It's disgusting, today's 'church' is full of narcissists, all flattering each other!
Yes, Christianity breeds an astonishing amount of narcissism. But they follow a narcissist God so what do you expect?
No, the church is not full of narcissists - in 55 years I've only met one or two at church. If the church that you went to has many narcissists that are not Christians there...
@@bevstephens8425 Yes, I know.
Perhaps you need a little more discernment then? Or Speak the Truth in love when they are promoting false doctrines and EVERY 'church' these days mixes Truth with error.
As Jesus said, "A tree is known by it's fruit" and today's "Christianity" is the bad fruit borne from the Catholic AND Protestant denominations, yes, even beginning with Martin Luther - the 'great saint' of the "Reformation" RE - formation?
Martin Luther posted his so-called 95 Theses (also ignorantly referred to by "Protestants", with no clue what is actually contained therein) on October 31, 1517
and he published his despicable and hateful treatise - "The Jews and their Lies" - saying they should be exterminated as subhuman vermin, MUCH LATER, in *1543* !
@@bevstephens8425 Yes, I know.
But with respect, perhaps you need a little more discernment then? Or Speak the Truth in love when they are promoting false doctrines and EVERY 'church' these days mixes Truth with error.
The apostle Paul said, "A LITTLE leaven leavens the *whole* lump."
As Jesus said, "A tree is known by it's fruit" and today's "Christianity" is the bad fruit borne from the Catholic AND Protestant denominations, yes, even beginning with Martin Luther - the 'great saint' of the "Reformation" RE - formation?
Martin Luther posted his so-called 95 Theses (also ignorantly referred to by "Protestants", with no clue what is actually contained therein) on October 31, 1517
and he published his despicable and hateful treatise - "On The Jews and their Lies" - saying they should be exterminated as subhuman vermin, MUCH LATER, in *1543* !
HITLER loved Martin Luther and quoted him, giving rise to his OWN vile blood bath.
@@bevstephens8425 I had a mennonite girl say the same to me. Her church is absolutely full of narcissists. But you know, I don't think she knows what narcissists are. So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. Christianity is about narcissism at its core, and this God is a narcissist. So is it really a surprise.
I appreciate Pastor Mike tackling this complicated subject. His tactics might suit a situation where the husband is a relatively normal person, or at least strives to be, and he has some behavioural issues that need adjusting. I grew up witnessing serious spousal abuse. Had any of us done anything so bold as to expose it, it would not have ended well for my mom.
Yep, it’s pretty dangerous stuff. People who haven’t lived with a violent person just can’t comprehend the consequences. The very real consequence.
So many Christians are so uneducated on narcissistic abuse and how it works. I grew up with parents that not only have narcissistic traits but are also constantly fuelled by our culture (im Indian). People don’t understand the level of manipulation. After I left my home, they called all the people that were close to me and cried and acted like victims. I still have my old youth pastor and a few other people calling me and telling me how im hurting my parents.
It’s amazing how nobody will see your pain for years and years. These people are master manipulators and escaping them is extremely tricky and has to be very strategic. And you better be ready for the post escape abuse, not just from the abuser, but all of their flying monkeys
@@nicolechristian9389 Reading your story led me to pray for you ❣️💛 Nicole, you matter, and there will be no undermining your trauma that you went through growing up. God loves you dearly ❤️💖 and we as the body of Christ love you so much 💕 May you be healed and whole, in Jesus name. Amen 💛💘
I've dealt with trauma and am still slowly healing from it, but seen as the outcast, as a weird person. But I choose not to give in to the lies fed to me. You are beautiful, and our Savior is strong. Don't lose hope, don't be discouraged. God is with you, and He will make a way. Amen
Exactly. He has no understanding of abuse.
I was in this position, but my husband WAS the pastor. I was so brainwashed into thinking I was defective that I eventually had a nervous breakdown. He quit the ministry, blaming it on me, eventually had an affair, and then left. It took a lot of time and a lot of work, in the context of God's faithfulness to me, but I now love the person I am and continue to grow into being the best version of myself that I can be. God is FAITHFUL and will fill your "yes" and help you through your "I can't." I know this from the perspective of nearly 25 years, later.
Your husband was never a believer but a con artist. Many pastors are.
I grew up watching spousal abuse. God is faithful! We can still have the scars, but God is so good in restoring our souls! God bless you!
@@pollywog92 yes!
@@flowerpower3618 You should not just believe random people on the internet...
@@arnoldvezbon6131Why not? We’re in a comments section with fellow believers and at least one of these stories was bound to have happened. I know it’s hard to believe but normal people don’t have the time or energy to type out a paragraph that very few people will read, not to mention that there’s nothing to be gained from likes. Unless you magically have evidence that she’s lying, it would be better if you simply remained quiet instead of accusing someone who’s already gone through a terrible situation of making it up. There are people online who live different lives than you. Just because you can’t personally imagine a reality besides yours doesn’t give you the right to tell a complete stranger that something didn’t happen to them.
My father was like that. He actually was a preacher who preached the love of God on the pulpit, but there never was any love in our home. He was physically and emotionally abusive in the home. We feared and avoided him.
I'm sorry.
The advice Mike gives here, which appeals to the good sense of the abusive spouse, would only work if the spouse is basically a decent, godly person and are going through an identifiable bad time and they are normally good spouses. The identifiable cause to their behaviour would be external to the relationship and clearly identifiable as 'out of character'. E.g., the husband lost his job, a parent just died and grieving, he is undue stress due to a bullying boss and has taken up drinking and gets a bit aggressive and nasty etc. Anyone can go off the rails sometimes and be unnecessarily harsh or even cruel with words to those nearest and dearest, and may even lash out physically if under extreme stress and they might even take up substance abuse. But these spouses will feel remorse and eventually will apologise and feel apalled and repentant toward those they abuse. This is the type of abuse situation where being non-confrontational approach would be wise because it would work. The bible advises wives in this situation (and it is normally the wife) to act 'with a meek and quiet spirit' (don't antagonise and fan the flames). In that situation, the female spouse - suffering though she is - will not want a divorce, still loves her husband and wants all to be well once more. She just wants her godly husband back. With patience, prayer and church support she will win him back, and will want to wait for however long it takes (which won't be a very long time if the husband is keen to get the help he needs or to remove himself from the toxic environment giving rise to his abuse).
But this sort of biblical advice - to seek help from him, then the church Elders and then the whole church - will definitely not work when the abused spouse (normally a wife, but could be the husband too) is married to a personality disordered coercive controller or routine abuser - physical and/or emotionally with signs of entitlement and disregard for his/her spouses needs. These abusers are criminal abusers, more often than not or very close to being that. The Mr Hyde behind closed doors and Dr Jeckyl in public is normally this type of person not the first type I described above. They will try to get out of counselling too, claiming that they won't help. Biblical advice to the abused to be 'meek and quiet and to submit to his leadership to win him around' would be an open green light for the abuser to continue abusing - and they will. Narcissists despise weakness and capitulation, they don't respect it. This biblical approach would be like handing a beef steak to a dog, convinced that with enough steak it will eventually get fed up and prefer grass.
Going to the church equipped with nothing other than 'he said/she said' allegations of behind closed doors behaviours that no one witnesses won't work either. Best thing is to garner hard evidence of his/her 'at home' behaviour with tape recordings, body-camcorder interactions if necessary, especially if they deny bad behaviour first by lying. Personality disordered individuals or those with abusive traits will always lie about their culpability, blame the victim spouse and when the abuser is remarkably charming and believable, the church might then believe them and not the abused. This is a depressing reality for narcissism victims. It is the abuser who is believed not the abused. So hard 'red handed' evidence is vital.
As it is, church counsellors are often not equipped to deal with complex personality disordered individuals who are not really truly Christian, but faking it - as some church goers clearly are. Just because someone attends church and carries a bible around doesn't make them a Christian anymore than someone wearing a tracksuit ou jogging is an Olympic athlete.The counseller will be well out of their depth believing that all spouses fall under the first category as they are truly believers and Christian, when they really belong to the second and are Pharisees, Goats, Tares and Wolves. So they give poor advice, believing that all the answers can be found inside the Bible prescriptively. Furthermore, if in a Conservative church - but any possibly - they will be prone to blame the wife for not being a good enough support to her husband (implying that she secretly deserves her poor treatment) and they will quote from scripture to reinforce the idea that the male is head of the household and entitled whilst the female abused is not doing her support role properly by not submitting as she should and, consequently, making him behave badly toward her. Therefore she is to blame and she must fix the problem by submitting to his headship more effectively. This is shocking, potentially dangerous and cruel advice and just re-victimises the victim. This is precisely what happened with John MacArthur's GCC and his own input in response to the David and Eileen Grays case where he publicly humiliated her for leaving her abusive husband who is serving 21 years for spousal and child abuse. It is truly shocking what GCC did to manhandle this situation and continued to do so over a very long stretch of time.
Frankly, any church that is privvy to criminal behaviour and does not do its duty to report the crime to the authorities, if the law demands tha they should in their jurisdiction, is not a church to keep attending.
Whether they report the crime or not, the first duty of a criminally abused spouse is to seek their own personal safety physically and emotionally and to keep safe their children from emotional, physical and sexual harm permanently. If divorce is the only solution then I don't think that would be an ungodly act when by remaining in a highly toxic marriage, sin is also rampant and left unresolved.
Good points you raise
Wow that was such a thorough response. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insight.
People who suffer from personality disorders are not inherently abusive, are not inherently compulsive liars and manipulative, and abusers are not the majority of those who suffer from these disorders. I have Borderline Personality Disorder and I have not abused my wife nor lied to her nor lash out in violence or cruelty nor tried to manipulate her. The truth is that people with BPD (I don’t know about the other disorders) are more at risk for being the _victim_ of abuse, and I’m a living statistic of that from a past relationship because we end up being so afraid of loneliness and abandonment that even if we are knowingly being abused, we will stay with the abuser. We don’t know how to get out of that situation, or at least it’s much more challenging than for someone who doesn’t suffer from the disorder.
It makes me so sick to the stomach when anyone tries to label me these types of things just based on the fact that people have no idea what the true symptoms of the multitude of disorders are. They go off of what they hear instead of doing actual research. Or they go off of stories that make up an individual instead of the whole, yet label the whole as such. Personality disorders especially affect individuals differently. Stop demonizing people who suffer these things. Call abusers what they are: abusers. And don’t automatically attach personality disorders to it.
That was so refreshing to hear from someone who gets it. I was married to a woman who in retrospect was one of the most severe narcissists my Christian counsellor had ever heard of. If it is hard for a woman to speak to someone, it is hard on a whole other level for a man. Almost no one believes a woman can act this way, and most Christian’s just say “you just need to lead.” She cheated on me more times than I know of, once with a family member of mine. She would force me to have sex with her and threaten to physically abuse me in front of the kids if I didn’t. As well as being a severe high functioning alcoholic, she was controlling with money and drove us $150,000 into debt. I stayed with her for 10 years before she eventually left me for another man. I have since remarried my high school sweetheart. We have two beautiful kids together. It is still very isolating because I can’t speak with anyone besides my counsellor about my former marriage. The few times I have, I have been dismissed because it sounds too extreme for a woman to do such things. We were saddled with the debt from my previous marriage, but I didn’t have it in me to fight her. Dealing with the shame of divorce is difficult even though I am forgiven. It makes it harder because most people just lump me in with those that leave marriages for frivolous reasons. When people meet my wife for the first time and hear that I am divorced, they default to, “oh did he cheat on her?” My wife has to correct them. They often nod their head but you can tell they don’t quite believe it. You cannot reason with a narcissist. mikes advice is good, but only for those that can actually self-reflect, and really love their spouse.
Perfect comment!
“My husband is very different at home.”
“Oh no honey, I’m sure he didn’t mean it that way. I could never imagine him doing that. You have to understand, men are just different.”
I got the “at least he comes home every night” consolation.
@@scratchoriginalsdh 😩
Men are not that different from women. Sure, we're noticably dofferent and have dofferent roles, but both genders are human beings. Men are actually from America and women from Canada.
@@linkskywalker5417I don’t think you understood the comment. No one is talking about gender roles.
🤮🤮🤮😑😔
This and unfaithful “Christian” husbands are such massive problems in the church that often end up further victimizing the wives bc those meant to help are blaming them or they’re being told to hush and not cause strife. My parents were so adamant that we heard and learn of these issues and the wolves that protect these garbage men who refuse to be held accountable, so that we knew how to protect ourselves or seek proper help. So sad that it has to be taught not only out in the world but especially among the Church.
Just to be honest. Christian women cheat 2 times more than secular women. I don't think so you know the stats.
I'm really glad they prepared you and yes, it is sad that it is necessary, but it is!
When the likes of "St John" MacArthur take sides with the abuser even as a children's leader in his church and 'counsels' the wife to stay with him and be a 'good example of Jesus' to the children who were also sexually abused, HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM!
(the Eileen Gray case)
Its not always so simple as coming with an exact example of verbal abuse. Narcissists make crazy conversations, go round in circles to create confusion and use accusation, until you are broken and then can blame it all on you. They accuse you of the actual thing they are doing and i think are so deluded that they might even genuinely believe it themselves, such that you question your own mind. Its all a game of control. Its like survival of the fittest. Not easy to spot because they are charming and convincing.
There’s a lot of Christians in name only.
Amen.
EXACTLY 💯. Abusive spouses are hypocritical embarrassments to Christianity . ATHEISM AIN'T GOT NOTHING NEW OR BETTER TO OFFER THAN THE VERY RELIGIOUS BELIEFS THEY'RE CRITICAL OF SO IT'S HYPOCRISY AT IT'S FINEST 😂. Hello this is for all you Atheists, unbelievers and skeptics. I'm going to address a few misconceptions and lies about God's Character and His Word. The Bible doesn't support chattel slavery or anything else Immoral. Ok so Atheists and unbelievers say God is either Immoral, incompetent or not responsible so let's see what The Scriptures actually say. God revealed himself and created a nation in a real, historical context. It was a world with a slave-based economy, with city states often at war with each other, with polygamous marriages to ensure the continuation of family lines. The laws of the Old Testament regulate this behaviour. Slaves are to be treated humanely (Exodus 21:11). They are given rights and not seen as mere possessions. Hebrew slaves were able to buy their own freedom. Human trafficking is condemned (Exodus 21:16). In contrast to the law code of Babylon, Old Testament Israel was a light to the nations. The Old Testament law and narratives do not stand alone. Jesus is now the best example of what we read. So the moral teaching of the Bible cannot be summarised by a quote taken out of context from the Old Testament to demonize God and His Word. Slavery was permitted in Old Testament law but it was regulated by God giving the Israelites instructions on how to fairly and humanely treat their slaves (it was like indentured servitude where someone could work for you if they owed debts or needed income not cruel like chattel slavery). God allowed the people of Israel to own slaves since they themselves has already experienced over 400 years of generations of Egyptian slavery and knew how inhumane it was to be beaten, overworked and taxed so God set them apart from other nations and cultures around them by giving them a fair way to treat their slaves since slavery had already existed in the world but it doesn't mean God condoned it just used it for His Will to bring Good And in the light of the whole scriptural teaching, we find the reasons for its ultimate abolition (Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1-3; Philemon 15-16 and Galatians 3:28). The Word of God provided the moral standard against slavery in the Roman Empire and against the slave trade in the New World.
But what of genocide or holy war in the book of Joshua? Several things could be pointed out. The use of warfare in the ancient world did not always mean literal total destruction, even when events are described in such terms. Furthermore, the book of Joshua does not describe a genocide. It is not a race who are being wiped out, as in genocide, but a religious practice which was often appalling and degrading. Those who repent (like Rahab from Jericho or Ruth) are not destroyed but become part of Israel. It is not the racial group that is in view but their "detestable practices".
However, after all is said, we must still acknowledge that God brought judgment on the nations of Canaan. It is not our place as believers isn't to sugar-coat the Bible. For some skeptics, this is enough to make God a moral monster. But the fact is that Jesus continued to affirm that God is a Judge who will bring a future judgment on all peoples and all nations. God’s judgment will be just. The list of Old Testament stories rejected by critics often leads to a similar dismissal of the New Testament teaching of Jesus on the existence of hell.
After all, what was the Flood of Genesis or the conquest of Joshua if not a glimpse of future judgment? Hell does not demonstrate cruelty on God’s part, but it does demonstrate His Holiness and our moral accountability. Perhaps this is the real reason many people rail against the God of the Bible? It is not that they think He is a moral monster, but that they are afraid He is a moral Judge, and that has implications for our behaviour now. God is an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being and we as His creatures have Eternal souls and spirits so the punishment for our sins against Him must therefore also be Eternal but so must the reward for righteousness that's why He sent His Son Jesus to live a perfectly righteous and sinless Life (which none of us could ever possibly expect to do) suffer the humiliating and torturous death of crucifixion to shed His Own Blood willingly so that all who willingly accept His gift of salvation by grace through faith in Him will be saved and given Eternal life because that's what God wants is for us to willingly accept His gift of salvation and choose life. Exodus 21:20-21 literally speaks about capital punishment befalling anyone who mistreats their slaves so yes people are taking Scripture out of context to demonize God who literally promises that slaves who are mistreated under someone else's authority is to be avenged. When we hear the word “slavery” we think of innocent human beings, kept prisoner for life, having no rights under law and so reduced to animals. This is clearly immoral because it is unjust: the slave has done nothing to deserve the treatment.
The situation described as “slavery” in the Bible was nothing like this. It is more accurately described as one of indentured servitude. Many “slaves” were indentured servants, working for a term of years
Some other “slaves” were prisoners. There were no prisons. Prisoners had to work to live like everyone else. Some had life sentences. Some served a term and were released.
People didn't beat their good slaves but treated them well and protected their assets thus.
But no matter how rebellious a slave was, you couldn't just beat them to death. And if you knocked out their tooth or damaged their eye then you had to set them free. (Exodus 21:26). God wasn't using what other nations did because He wanted to set His Chosen People of Israel apart from the cruel, inhumane and unjust systems other cultures had so He gave them a fair way to treat their slaves and servants.
There is a lot of ignorance on this topic which is understandable given the age we live in but it's not the nefarious set up we think of when we think of modern slavery. The question Atheists must ask themselves is how come the Jews aren't being accused of slavery and human trafficking if they're guilty of it in The Bible and why would white slave owners rip out pages from The Old and New Testament Scriptures to justify their owning blacks as slaves if The Bible already justified slavery?
Got to look for the fruits of repentance. It's biblical. You know a tree by its fruit.
Jesus will one day say “Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you “ very scary .
Why does the whole new creature, holy spirit living within Christians fail if it's true?
For anyone dealing with abuse and thinking nobody would believe them: you would be surprised how much people realize when something is wrong. You may go to a wise trusted friend thinking they'll think you're crazy, and they may reply with, "I knew something wasn't right."
Some spouses will literally kill the other spouse for disagreeing and exposing them. If nothing works and that spouse continues with verbal and physical abuse, treat that individual like an unbeliever. Many spouses have tried and tried to work things out with their spouse, but the verbal and physical abuse is to heavy to carry. No one likes broken bones and ribs and being made to feel like nothing, walking around in fear and on eggshells in your own home! Sadly, there are times when you have divorce and go your separate ways for your own safety. 😢
I was a child with an abusive father who was a leader in the church. Unless you are in the situation it is impossible to understand. You are embarrassed and afraid to go to anyone in the church. When I confronted him I got my head beaten against a wall. But the Lord has freed me from the pain and now, at 69 years old, I am able to tell my story.
My dad was this way, he was an abusive narcissist to my mom and my siblings. Sometimes it becoming physical. He had a very charismatic attitude so many people (unless you knew him personally) didn’t know how he would behave. I’m still recovering from it myself (and even caused me to leave the faith at some point because of it) and it still has wounds in my family. This needs to be brought to the forefront and exposed. This is all too common for many people
that is almost exactly like my husbands dad growing up. so scary.
Yes. My husband.
Sounds like my life. 19 years of abusive father who was a minister. My mother still won’t publicly admit it even after he’s dead. She’s afraid of ruining Gods testimony by letting people know how awful he was
I think the other issue, church-related or some other social club, is that people really value their social reputation over their personal lives. Hypocrisy. Some would argue the “real” them IS their reputation. It’s this strange detachment when people say “Well, I think your mom is great, so you’re wrong; therefore, you’re a brat”.
It’s like you get gaslit/condemned that you’re just ungrateful or selfish because the hypocrite is very likable.
@@eflow4786 What benefit to anyone or to God would it be to let people know how awful your dad was after he's now dead? It's over. Your mother sounds like an honorable woman, thinking about the others over her own bad memories.
Can I tell you @Mike Winger. If the person is abusive that person will not sit and listen and won't read the letter. He will just blame you for being the one to cause whatever it is you are trying to talk about or try to find some way to turn it around and make it about you. And if you do go to someone outside you will be subjected to even more abuse. Guess how I know....
Yes, that is very, very true. I had the same experience.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I think it depends on the level of abuse and the emotional maturity of the person. My experience has been, that addressing my concerns was actually received well. The person who was emotionally hurting me, was not intentionally wanting to hurt me. But he was a very abused, hurt little boy deep down inside. Never learned to work through that baggage, and how to verbalize his feelings. So he would subconsciously push people away and self-sabotage. I do understand that not all scenarios are the same. I'm very sorry that you've endured abuse. I have also experienced relationships with people who definitely have low character and zero desire to change. When someone is incapable of true remorse and empathy- that is a scary person to stay involved with.
Exactly how it goes...
@@mbwilson8592 my father had a bad temper. (he was never physically or mentally abusive, except for laughing off my mom's concerns.) She found that by writing her concerns in a letter worked VERY well. That way, he didn't laugh, to try to deflect the concerns. But he was never intending to hurt her. He was just insensitive. He appreciated my mom forcing him to face the issues.
@@diananeuman6222 that is great. My mom would do the same for my father and this worked as my father’s intention was never to hurt. Unfortunately with severe abusive men, they know what they are doing hence the control over their public vs private personas. They sadly do not care to change or modify their behaviour because they perceive that they are justified in doing so. Unfortunately with these type of men, they feel entitled. It’s dependent on the person of course.
Talking with the husband would be helpful for incidences of “bad behavior” or moments of control; but not for patterns of spousal abuse. They already know what they are doing. But I agree with the opening up about the abuse in a calm and specific manner and exposing the abuser. That part was great.
Thank You Mike for opening up discussion on this matter, something that shouldn't be swept under the carpet. Expose it to the light, then understanding, restoration, and healing can start. Wonderful!
Matt 18 applies. The problem is that the behavior was not addressed so it becomes a pattern.
I agree. How does one discuss issues that have become long term ingrained personality traits? You cannot blame the spouse for being non-confrontational. A husband who has made a habit of cheating and getting away with it will branch out into abuse, neglect, and hate.
I lived through it. I was naive because I didn't believe he would do such a thing. He had several affairs, I found out later.
Yes, I was devastated. After an incident of violence, I got a restraining order which eventually ended the marriage.
This is how I grew up. It’s SO damaging to children.
I started by confronting my husband, then writing two letters. In marriage therapy he played the victim. Our pastor refused to believe me or the other witness who testified to his ill treatment of both of us. He wasn’t interested in hearing from my mother, who my husband verbally abused. I had to leave my church as a result, but God us my Husband, regardless of what anyone else believes about the fake persona my husband portrays.
Sound like you are impossible to deal with. Really wanting you husband to listen to your mother? Your mother needs to learn her place and so should you.
Mike, have you ever been around somebody that's hiddenly abusive? They're not going to sit and listen much less read a letter from you. They can rage and become dangerous at any second. Most women are afraid to move let alone speak. Something will trigger them off and eventually physical harm can be so bad it can take the life of a spouse.
My advice to a woman in an abusive relationship is to have an escape plan first and then that way there is a safe place to meet and talk in front of others later.
Mike is an abuse counselor. Also, it should be noted that this is for someone who is verbally abusive, not physically abusive. The response would be totally different if we were talking about someone who is physically abusive.
I'm sure this applies to some husbands too, being at risk. It concerns me that some pastors counsel abused spouses to stay in that situation, and some are even murdered by them. Only a few days ago I came across a comment after a video like this one, telling that a wife was more than once not given adequate support by her church leaders - and her husband killed her. It happens to men too.
@@mkirulesVerbal turns physical and there’s only one way to find out whether that will happen…
Mike does not care. He rather victims are bound to their husband
@@mkirules Oh God Mike is an abuse counselor? "Now keep being a good abused wife honey. That's what God wants!"
My ex- was a 2-faced abuser. I called in his 1st Sgt, I called in the MP's. He finally "lost it" in front of his CO & was put out of the Army. After that, he began to be more physical & after much prayer, I divorced him before he really hurt someone. My question is in regard to your closing statement. How does one "respect" a person like that? I DO still love the man I thought I married, but he killed all the love & respect I had for the person he had become.
I would add: keep a journal of when the
spouse was abusive and also who you tried talking to at church. Note dates and times so that if you need to recall an occurrence, you have it exactly as it happened.
Also keep notes on when they are abusive. My abuser’s (hate referring to him as my spouse) doctor told me that I needed to keep records of when he was abusive and escalating as there would be a definite pattern. There has been. The same doctor urged me to leave and divorce.
When we met he was on the worship team and I assumed that he was safe because the church had (I’d wrongly assumed) vetted him to be in leadership. After years of going to therapy and trying to fix the marriage, I realized that I couldn’t fix what I hadn’t broken. I’m struggling to find a way out financially as he is still abusing me financially.
I was married to one. There was no talking to him because he never did anything wrong. Mental abuse is awful.
right on ! I hear you !
Me too.
@@doryknits6741 I’m sorry 😢.
I went to the church and they did not believe me. They told me I was being an ungrateful wife. Sometimes abusive people are really good at looking good. It is also unfair that I can't be emotional. I can't help I feel hurt and defensive.
The part where one "needs to try" to keep calm while exprosing an abuser, or even just hurt in general, or they won't be believed got me. That's just a bandaid for the situation. When will the church confront the unbiblical viewpoint that one is "dramatic" or "overreacting" for showing emotion in any situation, but especially due to a traumatic/abusive situation? I'm so sick of hearing that someone "wears their feelings on their sleeve" and that being used as a means to completely dismiss emotional, mental, and verbal abuse. Abuse gets overlooked because the abused shows emotion. I've even personally heard the whole "a fruit of the spirit is self-control" argument as a way to justify asking someone to not cry or "be emotional" when confronting or talking about abuse...which is abuse in and of itself. Sick.
Being specific and exact like testifying in court helps your case. Harder to believe when anyone is making generalities. As Winger in the video says.
You're not an ungrateful wife. If the church won't believe you, find a counselor or another church where nobody is emotionally tied to your husband. Remember that God loves you, and that Jesus didn't die for you to let others manipulate you into drowning in fake guilt. He redeemed you, and you are loved no matter what, and your husband is supposed to love you too, not try to get you down.
@Isabelle M so are you like a Bill Gothard simp and a Calvanist who thinks Jesus only died for the perfect wife? Cuz guess what, even if she was a horrible wife (which I highly doubt she is), she's still loved. And yeah, dealing with literal ABUSE isn't being ungrateful.
I had the same thing happen and then the pastor decided I was so broken and it was his job to "fix" me......cue weaponised scripture and spiritual abuse. (That was pastor #2 whom I sought for help.....the first one did that AND started sexually harassing me!!) I find it difficult to trust ANY male and even MORE so if they are a part of "the church!" I can't help but wonder if my sole purpose on this earth is to be abused.
It’s so hard when you feel like you have no one to confide in. I have been in a similar situation.
This is how my abusive wife was. Or is, now divorced and have my kidd 100%, living my life free of the abuse.
i was told blame is always 50/50 i left that church and my husband
This happened in my household growing up. It took me a very long time to get over it. I learned being mentally abusive is just as bad as being physically abusive and I do my best to not replicate that in my own marriage in any way.
Thank you for sharing
I watched a friend of mine go through this with his father. It takes a lot of trust in the lord to follow these steps. Ultimately our church helped him to find safety away from his father. It wasn’t easy for my friend to reach out for help and stand his ground, but the Lord gave him enough courage, strength, and self worth to leave his abusive father behind and restore his relationship with his mother and sister. God is good, and he will never lead you astray.
Narcissism or NPD is a common problem and these people cannot be changed.
Narcissism can be changed. Look at Nebuchednezzar for a biblical example. The secular world, who created these definitions, offer no solution for people diagnoses with NPD, but that doesn't mean they can't be reached by Christ. A narcissistic person is self-centered, prideful, arrogant, defensive, deluded, overly sensitive to criticism, etc. The root of these issues is pride and self-centered. The gospel of Jesus addresses people at this level and can and does change people. Granted, these are notoriously hard people to crack, but I don't believe that anyone is beyond the transformative power of Christ. Look up David Wood's testimony to see a murderous psychopath radically saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ. It happens. It may be rare, but it happens. Be careful with the absolute language, though I don't doubt you may have had experiences with such people, there are those who can and do change.
@@nickgrandy6924 no, he wasn't suffering from NPD, he was suffering from basic human pride. NPD is a mental health issue that has zero evidence of being healed, these people know what they are doing and their sense of entitlement won't allow them to be healed cause they don't want it. God 100% can change anyone, David Wood is a diagnosed psychopath, but chooses every day to change his actions but he is not healed of it. There are plenty of self aware narcissist who are psychologists who want to be rid of this mental health disorder, bit will never break free of it. I have a BPD diagnosis and I'll never be rid of it even though through counseling, medication and the grace of God I can manage it I still have to work on it every single day. They are all those things, but they are under the fall and the curses that come with it. It's true that people in hell will know why they are there, but can never be saves from it because they will never repent, that's a narcissist, they don't care about anyone but themselves and will never change cause they're sick.
@@nickgrandy6924It is VERY UNHELPFUL to state these things to ABUSED WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!
A Narcissist CANNOT CHANGE. They are DEMONICALLY CONTROLLED!
They are TOO FAR GONE.
They are EVIL.
Yes they can change but its rare and only if God wants to but that does not mean that the victim needs to keep suffering by staying close to them
@@iknowitwasyou8488 Are you God?!
Do NOT speak for GOD!
Just shut your mouth…you are helping NO ONE!
THEY CANNOT CHANGE
NOT EVER!
They are A LOST CAUSE!
Forgot them!
From what I have learned in the last year, if someone tells you that their spouse is abusive, the fact of abuse is a virtual certainty, the only thing in question is who is the abuser and who the victim. Narcissists will often accuse people of what they themselves are guilty of.
Yep that's why its hard to take women seriously. most of them are narcissists due in most part to the societal pressures that put them on pedestals and over inflate their already inflated ego.
Exactly. My wife is like that. When I call out her physical abuse with her frequent outbursts of anger, she always blame-shifts by flipping it around and says I EMOTIONALLY abused her, in order to justify her violent episodes of anger. It is an outright lie. I am a very laid back and non-confrontational person. I hate arguments and conflicts. Our arguments are always over something small and insignificant, and it ALWAYS starts with her approaching me to scold/scorn me with harshness and anger. I sometimes would raise my voice (along with her) when she talks over me...a control mechanism of hers, or if I absolutely cannot take anymore of her quarreling (ask her repeatedly to stop). To her, that is emotional abuse. Go figure.
@@dnashj33yep, been there. It helps if you don't react, which gives them supply. Not the "silent treatment" that they're infamous for, but just not reactive. Avoid showing your anger towards her, or your frustration. It's called "grey rock" because a grey rock does nothing, and is boring. Essentially there should be no difference in your response between her insulting you, and her telling you the weather. The reaction is what she is after, don't give it.
If marriages are this hard, as a single person, Ill just continue to struggle with my sins and have Jesus help me step by step. Don't want or need it. Having a good marriage is one. Someone in a good marriage will never understand someone who is in an abusive one. My prayers are with those being abused. Follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe God is asking anyone to remain forever in an abusive marriage.
It's always a good thing to focus your time and energy on strengthening your walk with Jesus. Paul spoke about the blessing of single-hood for the ability to focus on Christ with less distraction. If one is able to do that, and abstain from getting caught up in temptations from romantic relationships, then that's amazing. But don't let a fear of sinful people, keep you from allowing yourself to be vulnerable enough to love. God blesses the single, celibate life dedicated to Him, and does the same for marriages that are striving to be more like His example as well.
@@mbwilson8592 Single-hood is not a blessing.
@@realhusbandslovetheirwives7912 celibacy is a blessing. As is marriage. The problem is, most people don't spend their singleness devoted to to God, spreading the Gospel, and serving the church, which is how the Bible outlines the life of a celibate person. But both are, biblically, referred to as good things.
@@umbrellathegreatdetective5423 It's not a blessing, and neither is it stated as being a good thing. Only the opposite.
Genesis 2:18
And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
I hear what you’re saying. My dad was abusive to my mom. He is passed now. She has said that “there are worse things than being alone”. But, I have married a good man and would recommend marriage. Pray that God will give you wisdom to make a good choice. Also, make super sure you know him well. If there are any red flags before you marry him, do not marry him. Unfortunately, my mom ignored those signs and ended up in years of very significant abuse.
Another point I wish to make is, it's not necessarily the man who is abusive. I've seen very angry and hateful abusers who are female.
Facts
Amen wives can be abusive as well
I was listening to my parents talk about a couple the other day and ...wow... Evil has no gender. She was also leveraging the rights that women have fought for (to be heard) and the stereotype that women are always the victim in an abuse situation by threatening him with police every time he breathes. ☹️ Anyone's life can be screwed by these people.
Any mention of problems only brings on more abuse.
A friend of mine grew up with an abusive dad who was a deacon in the church. It took her decades to get over it.
Going to the pastor very rarely works, because the husband puts on a mask of goodness & holiness!
True, that is what the ex did and still lies about family behind the pulpit. I ask God to change him, he was forgiven by me a long time ago. God will someday bring the leopard that doesn't change their spots to the light..
I relate to so many of the commenters. My father has been two-faced my whole life, mother hid his sins and enabled. When I grew up I ended up in a 5 year relationship mirroring my parents marriage. Church counselors, mentors, and leaders didn't believe me, and worse they promoted legalistic views that facilitated the abuse. I dealt with all the ridicule, false accusations, mockery and misquoted verses when I got a restraining order but I decided my survival was bigger than their hateful arrows. They all fell for my ex's pathological lies and fake smiles. He threatened to use a gun multiple times, his violent behavior towards me was rapidly escalating, and I didn't want to be in tomorrow's obituaries to appease the self-righteous pharisees in my life. God rescued me from that hell hole and gave me a new life in a totally different state and brought genuine believers in my life. The difference between true biblical counsel and authentic Christians vs the fakes I grew up around is HUGE. Do not stay in an abusive marriage and do not listen to ungodly enablers!
I'm so glad you did what you did, no matter what anyone said!!!
@@lesliewells1062Aww thank you Leslie, the support I've received through that journey and on the other side has been so comforting and encouraging! It's like God sent messengers to assure me I did the right thing to drown out all the lies of the enemy trying to break my spirit.
@@Lilacs4 You are so welcome!!! Don't let them beat you down or break your spirit--you are a child of the King--and all the people who have hurt you and done all the wrong, terrible things to you--have messed with a child of the King. Our Father in Heaven did not create us to be used and abused by other people, whether those people are our husbands, pastors, ministers, it doesn't matter who. I'm praying for you!! Love!! Leslie
@@framboise595 So you think it's ok for one sinful human--a husband, to abuse another sinful human--a wife? We're not talking about God doing it. We're talking sinners that are hopefully saved by grace. Humans are subject to the urge to abuse the power they have over others who are more vulnerable.
You say there is "no such thing as abuse...but there is something as rebellious wives." Your screen name is female. Are you a female or a male? I would like to know the answer to that.
@@framboise595 Did you not read what the Israelites did in the Book of Ezekiel? How is this comparable to these men being violent towards their wives?
I used to fight with my wife until I found Jesus and realized everything my mother told me about forgiveness and love I should have listened to I didn’t learn until my mother was gone now it’s like every dumb thing I fought about is just not in my head or I don’t think about anymore Jesus honestly saved my marriage
I’ve worked in full time ministry for over 8 years and I’ve seen this story play out so many times it makes me want to vomit 🤮. It’s usually husbands, but I’ve also seen abusive Moms, as well as adult children who abuse their parents, & people who abuse their siblings. Abuse isn’t always physical or sexual. There’s emotional abuse & spiritual abuse too. A lot of abusers excuse themselves because they aren’t committing the first two, even when they’re regularly committing the second two. Pastor Mike is absolutely right when he says abusers will try to cut you off from any outside voice, in order to protect themselves from criticism.
This needs to be talked about more and more.
I was married for 10 years to a "christian" who abused me in every way. He told me it was my fault when I confronted him. He didn't change. He isolated me and threatened to kill me if I told anyone.
I brought a couple of friends home to confront him since they had seen how he treated me when he thought nobody was watching. They left in tears because of his subsequent behaviour and told me we couldn't be friends anymore.
Next I went to my pastors, calm and concise. They accused me of gossiping, I burst into tears, and that avenue was lost.
I then told other Christians in the church who told me I chose to marry him and couldn't leave because I was a Christian and God hates divorce.
So, I stayed.
I only left when our children became badly affected by the abuse.
Result? My reputation ended up in tatters. He continually stalked me and threatened me. The courts forced me to continue to send the kids to see him. Everybody I knew rejected me. I was told I had lost my salvation. I felt like even God had abandoned me because He didn't cause anyone to come to my rescue.
I forgive everyone involved because I think they were all just doing what they thought was right. I just hope and pray that anyone else in that situation will be taken seriously so they don't have to go through the same thing.
I praise God because He is faithful and He has protected my and my children's lives.
Oh Rachel I'm so sorry you had so many people fail you. Praise God He is faithful and rescued you and you still trust in Him. I really pray you have a better life now and are safe. Thank you for telling your story.
@@vickifreeman02 Your compassion and kindness really comfort me even though we've never met. Thank you so much 🙂 God bless you!
Same here.
@@veritecarry7142 I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I hope and pray you will have what you need to be healed. I will keep you in my prayers.
@@rachelhayhurst-mason7846 Thank you. I will ask Abba to help us both in our healing. It is a lot to work through even with the right help.
I am not sure how good of advice this is, in a serious abuse situation. It seems like a good approach if there's some other failing that isn't abuse, like unfaithfulness, a gambling problem or so on. But abuse is dangerous enough that it should really be handled by a crisis specialist.
This is doubly true in cases where the church can't be trusted to do the right thing. Unfortunately, this is pretty often. Too many churches have decided to cover up abuse rather than correct it.
You can always trust God, but you can't always trust the church.
Agree 💯
I 100% agree
It's straight out bad advice. It makes me question whether Mike understands what constitutes actual abuse which is about power and control. The nature of an abuser is that they have to dominate and therefore will not listen to or respect what their spouse has to say (no matter how they word it) since that would involve a degree of mutual submission which, as we know, is not how abusive people work, think or behave. Confronting them privately can be dangerous as well as doing so publicly and too often churches have given the benefit of the doubt to abusers and created a safe haven for them. You are correct: often churches cannot be trusted to do the right thing.
This advice is unbiblical in domestic violence situations,a battered woman "confronting"the abuser may 100%lead to her being murdered.
Is amazing how church continues this love affair with abusers.
If there is a crime,call the police and report it,period. Romans 13:1 to 6.
I have a friend who was in an abusive marriage. She went to the church for help, and she was told to submit more and be a better Christian wife. ;-(
(She’s okay now, happily married to a kind Christian man.)
Edit: Mime’s advice is GREAT. A person who has endured years of abuse may be too beaten down to seek help so assertively, but it would be the best thing for those who can.
Was that John MacArthur who 'counselled' your friend to submit more and be a better Christian wife?
That she would be showing a good example to her children of 'being like Jesus' even thought the children were sexually abused too?
@@framboise595 So you along with "St John" MacArthur only prove that you are not born of the Spirit because the WORD says, "There is no male or female for we are all ONE in Christ" - but only IN Christ otherwise, women are still under the CURSE of the garden of Eden when the MAN shall rule over HER.
The Bible is REPLETE with examples of women in MINISTRY both Old and New Testament, some even being prophets (which btw, much to the indignation of egotists like MacArthur are above teaches which is why he lies about some 'cessation' of certain members of the body of Christ - HE wants to be the top of the tree)
@@framboise595 WHERE does the Bible say, "how the wife is way more responsible than the man of the harmony of a household because the house is the place she belongs" ? Certainly not Titus 2:4.
Seems you are still under the OLD Covenant but "God is Spirit" and IN Christ there is no male or female and as the woman comes from man so MAN comes from the woman also.
And THESE days? FALSE teachers/preachers/prophets/authors etc in MALE FORM are swarming the planet and churches!
The jezebel spirit is alive and well in both men AND women.
@@framboise595
You have simply gone off the OTHER side of the path and don't seem to be able to reason properly from the Scriptures.
IF and when an husband is like Christ is to the Church, THEN you may have something to say.
However, in all my born days, this does not happen.
Your callous, self-righteous rants are shocking to tell you the truth.
GOOD CHRISTIAN women are also abused in case you didn't know and this has nothing to do with them being all those horrible things you describe.
You need a reality check I think and learn to read rightly divide the Word of Truth, seeking the WHOLE counsel of God for "There is NO male or female for we are all ONE in Christ"
Woman for man, man for woman but if you are still under the curse of the Garden of Eden, the of course a woman is subject to an overpowering, ruling husband.
Not so in Christ.
Oh, and clearly, you either don't KNOW what a true narcissist is, or you are one but they are demons who wreak havoc wherever they go.
Even logically, in a crime say, if someone is murdered or robbed, having NOT provoked any of this in any way, there IS really a VICTIM. And a perpetrator.
How about CHILD abuse?
Yeah. Then shut up.
@@framboise595
I totally agree, that the feminist movement and jezebel spirit is running amok these days but that doesn't negate what Christ has done for us when we are born again.
You need to be careful here because had you been around in Old Testament times, you likely would have stoned Sarah, Miriam, Deborah, Esther, Jael and many others who were doormats for no man.
Consider also that it is often MEN who hate women and want to dominate and abuse.
The world can't get it right - on one side of the coin, women are worshipped as goddesses and on the other side, they are hated and abused - even murdered.
Only in Christ, is this correctly rectified.
And what if a woman is NOT married?
Finally, it is disgraceful that you would condone MacArthur without any idea what is behind his comment and the shocking story of abject abuse, even child sexual abuse at the hand of a 'christian' youth leader of their church!
If you CONDONE evil, then you are also guilty of such and will be held accountable. We are to DEFEND widows and orphans, look AFTER the vulnerable and weak, not feed them to the wolves!
It is such high time this is talked about in the church. We need leaders who call out the wolves and protect women and children. When my sisters husband revealed himself as a psychopathic narcissist and abuser his church still welcomed him with open arms and tried to get her to "forgive him." He had left, having purchased a house beforehand for himself, stolen most of the money, locked up his businesses tight, and planned a court case of lies trying to prove she was an unfit mother, without any prior warning. She lived through HELL for years trying to keep her kids as a wonderful mother, and the church deserted her completely. He had money. That was good enough for them.
Thankful you are aware of this and it has opened the door for discussion but when the spouse is abusive, traditional therapy doesn't work.
I am married to a woman who fits this description. She was previously married to a man who left her five days after the 4th child was born. I come into the picture and now endure the manipulation and mind screwing of her words. I am not innocent of my own behaviors in this relationship. But I am not the one who starts the nonsense and the false accusations.
She has worked her way into areas of leadership at churches. But I’m the bad guy. She’s even mind screwed the children. (Except those who can think for themselves).
She lives in the world of unforgiveness. Makes many sideways-snide remarks. Forced me to delete my Facebook account. I can only hangout with people she approves of so my immediate relatives are off limits.
She has major jealousy issues. Hates my Mom because she feels she has played favorites between the grandchildren. My sisters kids and ours. My Mom doesn’t drive and has no way of visiting us unless someone brings her. My sisters kids lived with her for a while. They call or come by to say hi. My wife has not taken the time to invest in a relationship with her mother-in-law. Therefore our children don’t know their grandmother who lives 20 minutes away.
She uses the back half of genesis 2:18-24 as her foundation for relationship with me. I’m supposed to leave my mother and cleave to my wife. But she totally ignores the first part mentioned in v.18 ‘helper’ v.20 ‘helper’ is used again.
Dear wives. Some men are jerks. Some women are jerks. But we are all supposed to be ‘helpers’ (helpmate) in the pursuit of the Kingdom of GOD. not checkmates that derail that pursuit.
A little long. Sorry.
I had a family member like this . Physically, verbally abusive at home but loved at church . Turned a couple of the family members from Christ.
Now that I'm older I realize that person wasn't saved , but still a damaging witness
This is from a blog, Poema Chronicles. Thought it to be profound in the arena of toxic and unhealthy spouses.
Leave your abusive spouse now. Before anyone protests the sanctity of the marriage vow, let me say that I don’t take this answer lightly. And let me qualify the term, abusive spouse. Most people are occasionally emotionally ‘abusive’. These days that term is loosely bandied about and it can be difficult to ferret out what one or another individual means by it. Ironically, many abusers accuse their spouses of abusive behavior in an attempt to deflect their own wrongdoing.
So let’s be clear by what this term really entails. Many people shut down, withdraw, lose their temper, and sulk. As humans, we are sometimes passive-aggressive, over-step a boundary, or let an inappropriate word fly from our mouths. These immature behaviors need to be addressed, cause others pain, and generally set our relationships back a step or two. We can all be a jerk at times. This doesn’t make us an abuser.
Like most everything else, abusive behavior resides on a scale from slight to severe. If you feel genuine remorse, are able to take responsibility for your actions, and stop doing that behavior even if it takes a couple of tries, you are a normal human being with a conscience. Chances are you are not an abuser. So what does a genuinely abusive spouse look like and why should you leave now?
1: Abusive behavior escalates.
As we look over the life of a relationship, abusive or immature behaviors generally de-escalate. We mature, we grow together, and we learn to love better. Unless one of us is an abuser. If the name-calling, attempts at control, manipulation, threats, and gaslighting have noticeably increased, then the behavior is not due to a lack of self-control or youth. Abusers rarely begin a relationship using their fists. They use charmabusive spouse and love-bombing. Abusive behavior slowly grows over the years, starting out as merely uncomfortable and hurtful. As time goes by, the abuser grinds his or her victim down like a glacier grinds out a valley. Slow and steady.
My ex went from threatening the girls into good behavior to eventually setting fire to their things. See what I mean? And still, he didn’t physically harm them. As time goes by, victims become desensitized to abuse. I don’t mean it has less of an effect. I mean that the ability to respond becomes diminished. So we need to check our relationships. If they grow steadily worse over time, then chances are that we are dealing with an abuser, not just someone who is moody.
2: Check your mind and body for the effects of abuse.
Abusive behavior exacts a real toll on us. If we live in fear and experience regular trauma, our minds and bodies suffer real damage. Are we consistently miserable? Do we hide things from our spouse because we are terrified of their reactions? Walking on eggshells is a perilous way to live. Choosing to live in a war zone will culminate in war wounds that may not heal in this lifetime. For a couple of years before I left my ex for the last time, my internal mantra was I wish I were dead. I said it hundreds of times a day to myself and I meant it. If we find ourselves wishing for death, it’s time to reevaluate our lives. This is not God’s will for us.
Some people believe, like I used to, that if somehow they can insert themselves between their spouse and their children and take the hits, then the kids will be spared. This is not true. It is as traumatic for children to watch a parent suffer at the hands of another as it is for them to suffer the abuse first hand. Actually witnessing abuse is first-hand trauma. I wish I had known this sooner. We often believe the lie that somehow we can mitigate abuse if we toss our bodies onto the grenade. But no shortcuts are available on the highway of abuse. Watching someone experience trauma is traumatizing.
3: Staying enables abusive behavior.
Somehow we Christians began to swallow the lie that turning the other cheek meant never standing up to evil. But even Jesus did not deliver himself into the hands of the Pharisees until he was ready to do so. Matthew 7:6 says:
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Guess what? Each of us is holy, made by God to serve Him alone. When we stay with an abuser, we are casting our lives, our pearls, before swine. And make no mistake, if you are being abused, you are being trampled.
So what does the Bible say?
In Galatians 7: 15-16, Paul writes:
But if the unbelieving partner abandons the other, let it be so. In such cases, the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
If your spouse is knowingly causing you trauma through emotional, verbal, physical, or financial abuse, have they not already abandoned you? They may hold you prisoner within the confines of a relationship, but not as a person made in the image of God. They have abandoned your humanity, as they have also abandoned their own humanity. And abusers know the harm they cause. They do it on purpose. It isn’t immaturity, but cruelty.
In such cases, the brother or sister is not enslaved… And yet often enough in the Christian world, we act as if that were the case. Remember when Jesus was rebuked for picking some grains of wheat from the field to eat on the Sabbath? He said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. This is true of marriage. Marriage was made for humans, not humans for marriage. God did not invent marriage and then create some humans to fulfill His idea of it. Rather marriage is meant to be life-giving and covenantal. Unfortunately, not all marriages can be described thusly.
It is Escape, not Separation
abusive spouse pinMy purpose in writing this is to answer the question I am asked every week by a heartbreaking array of women who live with violent and/or narcissistic husbands. I even get this question from men trapped in marriages with emotionally abusive women. “Should I leave?” they ask after telling me about horrific episodes and decades of unhappiness.
But this is where we get to the crux of the matter. “Yes, you should leave,” is such an easy answer to a question that most of these women have circled for years. If it was a matter of walking out the door without fear, then probably the spouse isn’t an abuser. To leave an abuser is not about an act of will, it is about an act of warfare and a desperate escape. Without family support, without church support, leaving a dangerous spouse is no easy task. Two out of five women who are murdered were killed by an intimate partner. See these links for the latest research. Intimate Partner Violence Intimate Partner Violence Stats
As a woman who was urged to stay with my ex despite the pastor describing him as ‘a wretched human being’, I urge the church to take another look at its position. If true religion, as James says, is the care of the widow and the orphan, then we should consider putting abused women in this category. They are abandoned and for some, their spirit, soul, and body have been terribly wounded. Instead of asking women why they want to leave, we need to ask “How can I help you escape?”
As a devout Christian who is also a Batman fan, I approve of the thumbnail.
Hahahaaaa!!! I love this comment!❤️
When I talk calmly to my husband about our issues he just blows me off. He only listens when I tell and cry and possibly threaten consequences.
Sometimes what is happening in a marriage is subtle and hard to explain to someone else so they understand.
@@framboise595 Funny you automatically assume I'mbnot submissive. This is the problem with some Christian thinking,, that it has to be the womans fault. I have done my best to work on my own issues. It's time he took some responsibility to work on his.
@@jeanniestaller797 Ya people are inclined to not take you seriously when you make vague accusations...
@@arnoldvezbon6131 What are you talking about? She's sharing her experience and saying that it's difficult for anyone outside a marriage to know exactly what's going on between the married couple. This seems sensible.
Why are you and Isabelle attacking her character?
@@MM-jf1me na she has a comon complaint of a woman that does not obey her husband but expects to be listened to. And if he doesn't listen she threatens consequences. Not very Christian.
@@arnoldvezbon6131 it seems to me you and isabelle are the problem here not the woman telling you she’s being abused, I wonder do you two read yall bible at all. This is not demonstrating the love of Christ.
I was married to a narcissist before I realized that I was also raised with one, and most of you likely know that once you stand up to one, all of them crawl out of the woodwork and shut you down, shut you out, and all that nonsense.
Praises for God reminding me of what is valuable, (Me. Well what do ya know? 😀). And for the strength to forgive, and for the courage to hope there is a good man for me. Thanks Mike for seeing us, and speaking hope to busted hearts. ✝️
Narcissistic people can't take constructive criticism. They always see it as an unjustified attack on them. They can't see that they ever did anything wrong.
Letting them know they hurt you will bring mocking, ridicule, gaslighting, and doubling down on the abuse.
I feel like sometimes separation is the only real way to get healing.
I am a veteran suffering extreme mental illness and PTSD and I have had relapses with violent episodes and have hurt those I love. I was also severely abused growing up. I feel as if I became the monster I feared. I pray about it often, but it has not gotten better. It has actually gotten worse. I spend time in and out of mental lock down at the VA hospital. I do not want to hurt anyone. Help...Please!
Hi. I don't know if you are a follower of Christ but I'm going to suggest that as you pray, give Him your life totally. Ask the Holy Spirit to fill you and to remove all the spirit of anger, anxiety and all the other things you are facing. Every moment you can get read your Bible and feed on the Word. Also fast when and how you can.
It might be tough going through but it will happen. You will be delivered. Also listen to some Christian instrumental or music. Kyle Lovett is a good.
I'm praying for you.
I'm going through the same thing, Moose. I don't go to the hospital. I tend to stay at home alone. I don't have any advice except for what I do. I continue therapy. I watch sermons. No matter how bad I feel; I can grow. It is difficult. I don't know how to make friends so I can't help with that.
Love yourself brother. Jesus does. If you can learn to PROPERLY love yourself it will enable you to love others properly as well. I hope this brings you encouragement and that you will be able to recognize the grace that we as Christians are promised and in turn you will be able to give yourself some grace as you grow in Christ.
Please don’t give up on hope and please cling to Jesus. Life may never be perfect, but it is always so much better with him.
When you fall, no matter how, go to Jesus. Again and again and again. He will accept you.
My old church handled this so wrong. My ex-wife had an affair and wanted to leave our household, so she told some church family/friends that I was emotionally/mentally abusive to her. She was not completely wrong. I considered myself more abrasive with her than abusive because I treated her like I would a guy friend. I was growing and getting better, but I’m not going to lie and say I didn’t need help. So these people from the church help move her out without discussing anything with me in advance. She never came back. Some of them even helped her moved out permanently to a new apartment. They did not care about me, her, or our marriage. Our marriage ended in divorce and all they did was help her across the bridge to the other side. They reacted emotionally and carelessly.
Very sad 😓
7:38Be strong Brother. You are a sincere husband by admitting your area of fault s and your growing process too.
The Lord who searches the heart knows and sees all. I am a Pastor and I know how some women can sway you by their self centered lies, accusations against their husbands. In fact most times when you try to hear the man out you will discover you would have reacted wrongly or extremely unfair if you had gone by what the wife said not checking with the man. Although most men also may not make themselves accountable when reporting their wives but they don't try to becloud your judgement by what they say or the emotion they demonstrate.
Be consoled in Jesus name
Wow, churches just be handling everything badly. Church planting and funds needs to start including professional counsellors (like literally hire that's Christian)
I remember my mother telling about a woman who went to the elders of the church about spousal abuse from her husband, they told her to be a better wife. We don't associate with that community anymore.
Emotional, mental, verbal and psychological abuse can kill. I am currently escaping a marriage to a “Christian man” who was so, so good at always looking like the sane, level-headed one. He wore me down over 12 years to the point my health was completely failing in my early 30s. I think if I had stayed, the internal stress would have killed me, or I eventually would have ended myself. I’m so glad I’m free now :) soooo much better.
My family went through a very similar situation to this and the fruit that came from obedience to the scriptures is immeasurable. The entirety of my immediate family follows the Lord and has their trust in Him!
A family member of mine was being verbally and physically abused by her husband, and I think that he even stopped them from going to church because he believed only he knew how to truly understand the bible, which he used to gaslight her. She stayed with him because they had three kids, but when two were adults, the rest of my family helped her escape their house with their youngest. They waited for him to leave for work and then packed up all her stuff and got her out. She's doing better now, but it has still been a difficult road.
Thank you so much for putting out this video! The tittle describes my 22 year long marriage, except physical and sexual abuse from him towards me were present as well. When I got into therapy, my therapist said that some of the stuff my ex did to me is the same stuff they do to torture people in prisoner of war camps. I had no idea that Matthew 18 had anything to do with marriage--WOW!! But when you explain it like you do, it makes perfect sense.
But, my big fear when I hear about this is the retaliation that the wife will suffer after the 2 or 3 witnesses or the church leadership leave and you are again alone with your husband who is so angry and furious at you for exposing him--that is dangerous in a lot of situations. It certainly would have been for me.
In my situation, 10 of the 22 years of abuse that started on the honeymoon and ended the day I took my daughter and moved out of the house, my husband was the pastor of our church. It was a very small church, we didn't have deacons or a building or anything like. I was even more alone. And then, I couldn't have done the church discipline thing by the time I was finally getting ready to just leave, after several years of therapy, he had already left the church and said he didn't believe. I don't even know if he thought he was still a Christian or not. But for the last 3 or 4 years I had a husband who was not only abusing me, he would quote the Bible at me--his favorite was all liars will find their place in the lake of fire--every time I didn't agree with him or said something he didn't like. And He would have a cigar in one hand and a beer in the other, which we didn't do in our church, and give me long lectures about my failures as a Christian, submissive wife, etc, etc, etc--and he knew exactly where those verses were in the Bible, what they said, he could quote them. But he was no longer a believer.
So--be careful, anyone that does this. I think it's a great thing to do--as long as you know you will be safe when all those people go home and you are alone in a room with your husband. Don't do this if it would mean risking your life. Use wisdom. And I have heard Pastor Mike's stance in staying in dangerous situations and I know he is against that.
Love the clips from this conference!
A friend of mine was the daughter of a pastor who rapped her every night through her teenagr years (his wife went to bed very early). After she came out with her story or her journey to forgive she was even accused of putting dirt on the annointed one. When she forgave her father in the face he did not repent but asked her "what took you so long". People dont shut your eyes!
@@framboise595 I do not know thos detail but I guess so
Mom knew.
Thank you for sharing this! I’m living this right now. It’s been going on for a few years. I’ve been going through the steps, but the effort must be from both sides. I don’t feel very supported by my church standards because it hasn’t gotten physical. I can no longer subject myself and children to this lifestyle. Just waiting for my November court day!
I feel you and I will pray for you ❤️
I'm so sorry you're going through that. How awful, and traumatic. You are absolutely not expected to stick around for abuse, and your #1 priority as a parent- is to protect your children. I pray that you would find a strong Christian support system, and that your spouse would repent and come to Christ.
The church won’t help you.
Get out, help yourself. Stop enabling him to abuse your kids.
Find support from trauma informed therapists.
@@smash0005 What is your comment based on? I’ve seen people go to therapy and the situation doesn’t always improve..
such a Debbie downer lol
@@jherandsoleil6335 name calling? Wow nice.
we had a neighbor that we went to his church then when the plate was passed he took the envelope with the money we gave out to read how much with many people watching but nothing can be done because he gives so much to the church so he is untouchable!!
Every situation is different. So thankful for the body if believers. Good Christian counsel from godly men and women is beyond measure.
God bless, thank you for sharing this. We need to pray to Jesus for support and direction ultimately.
I regrettably understand from experience that this is still happening. Lord please help…
There IS a massive difference between a "christian" and someone that is Born-again! There are the sheep (the born-again) and then there are the Goats (the religious"christian") There is also the "church" and there is the Bride! Big difference! God bless!
Why doesn't God work his magic ever? All the same good people would be good without Christianity.
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr NO ONE IS GOOD!!
"AND YOU BEING EVIL,STILL KNOW HOW TO GIVE GOOD THINGS"!!
WE ARE ALL EVIL BEFORE THE HOLINESS OF GOD!!!
AND WE WERE BORN INHERINTLY EVIL AS A RESULT OF ADAMS (HOLY MANS) TRANSGRESSION!!
HENCE,THEREFORE THE NEED TO BECOME BORN-AGAIN IN CHRIST JESUS BY WAY OF THE INDWELLING OF HIS HOLY SPIRIT BY HIS GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE IN THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST ALONE!!
@@stephenbarningham330 Yeah the whole you are a piece of scum until you submit to a narcissist, isn't a healthy mentality and seems unlikely to be the wisest way to live from our creator. Not buying it.
Very timely upload! There is a situation right now in the marriage of my friends, and it seems very hopeless right now. Enemy is trying his hardest to break up this marriage.
If there is physical abuse, maybe it should be broken up.
Someone who works with an abuser program, as a support worker for the abused partners, told me that the consensus of opinion among them was that emotional abuse is worse than physical.
Any consistent pattern of abuse is grounds for divorce.
I'm not sure the situation, based on what I can see, it seems jealousy, manipulation, and control are a big part of it.
@@aprilballard4798 If you think it’s possible abuse is involved, you could try giving the one who might be abused a book about abuse, like The Emotionally Destructive Marriage by Leslie Vernick, or Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. They could see if they recognise anything described. (Maybe hide the book though.) If they don’t, they still will have learnt something, that abuse is not involved. If they do, it will be like the lights coming on.
Leslie Vernick is a Christian (and she’s on CZcams).
@@Jill-jb1jg I appreciate the resources!
You keep mentioning that it doesn’t have to be a pastor.
What happens when it is the pastor that is the person in question, and he has fooled most people in the church with his lies and manipulation?
Life is complicated and no solution is one-size-fits-all. Many options should be considered and weighed. Can you bring accountability to this pastor through some reasonable means? Are there other believers you can find support with even if the general community is under the sway of that one man? How bad is the abusiveness? Is it a situation where the police should be called? Do you need to suddenly flee for safety and hide? Are children involved? Is there an abuse hotline or resource that’s locally available? If so, are they solid or weird? Is the abused person seeing things clearly and being lied about or is it dreadfully complicated because they are being genuinely abused but also exhibiting signs of manipulation and abuse coming from them as well? Is there an avenue for showing the elders/other leaders in the church that the man is truly this bad at home? Would that increase abuse and cause reason to flee or would it expose and create accountability? Every situation can be different and no advice I’ve given can be taken without thoughtful and careful consideration. I often refer people to get wise counsel from a local, godly, trusted person. I’d suggest that’s a good place to start working through this stuff. If such a person isn’t available then I’d reach out to the best option you can find and try it.
It’s impossible for me (or anyone) to provide all answers to all these questions for all the variety of life situations possible, by merely making videos. I just hope that my answers teach some principles that make people wiser about their own situations.
Sounds like he may be a narcissist. And sadly talking to a narcissist rationally about the things they've done that have hurt you doesn't go over too well. I pray for those that are dealing with abuse. It's hard to deal with and get out of.
I know SO many people this happened to. An Insecure Narrsasist can do so much damage when unchecked.
@@framboise595 I grew up with it. They don't want to be challenged but they don't want to change.
Wow this was actually super helpful! Thank you!
This is all great advice. From experience I’d like to point something out though. I once worked at a church where a member started sharing gossip about me that was slandering my reputation and was completely false. We had someone come forward to me who knew the person doing the gossip. When bringing to my pastor’s attention the situation and ask how to proceed his advice was to let it go and that “we can’t do anything “. Perhaps I could’ve approached said person lovingly myself first , but I went to my pastor who I worked directly under for advice and was left hanging. I was church planting and eventually had to leave because the situation was so out of hand. That guy is still at the church while I’ve been “black listed “ by everyone without cause.
My point is that even though this is how we’re to live as a body within our congregations, it doesn’t mean everyone involved is willing. My experience with the churches I’ve been at is sadly leadership is rarely prepared for these kinds of situations for confrontation, and are largely unwilling. Im not saying never try or to expect the worse, but be prepared that many churches have Luke warm leadership and even though this call is in scripture it doesn’t mean they will act on it. I was once a church planting pastor and the church training my lead pastor and I had a situation. A couple got divorced, and the wife began claiming horrible things about her ex. The situation was ugly, and she ended up catfishing a man I discipled and was stalking him in the church. The church leadership was aware and wanted to do nothing. It took me calling them out on it for them to provide help for her, and taking matters into my own hands to speak with her about how horrible her actions were to cause her to stop.
All of this to say this kind of thing doesn’t always go the way it’s supposed to.
Seriously the opposite happened. I was told I was gossiping about my husband. The same woman told me I was to be a sacrifice for my husband. The church took his side and labeled me the unbeliever to be disciplined. Even the pastor who was responsible for interfering in a very abusive marriage and told the wife’s parents to send her back to her husband. If you disagree with this pastor the whole church turned on you. I have a really hard time in church. The other family moved to florida. I did too. I have family here. Everyone I went to went back and told the pastor. Who in turn told my x. Me and my Bible at home.
T Prada, I am so sorry. I hope being near your family has helped
My ex had one of the elders be a witness in our court case. He knew nothing about me and I had to represent myself. I was able to refute , with evidence, everything in his testimony . Sad thing is- until we learn to have appropriate boundaries and develop self worth- we continue to find ourselves in the same types of relationships , over and over again. It’s most likely due to the fact that we were mistreated as children and probably subconsciously believe that’s all we deserve. We can be too empathetic and forgiving and a narcissist will use this to its full advantage .
i’m so sorry that you were hurt I believe that God restores our heart as we move along keep your eyes on Jesus and not the people of this world. Many people get sucked into religion ideology. That includes pastors. Follow the word of the Lord and be part of the unity find yourself a healthy church near you that focuses on healthy living. The 12 steps also come in handy for help in this abusive behavior become a pattern in our life don’t wanna take all that junk into your next relationship God bless you and keep you safe from harm.
It’s infuriating that this happens in the Church, but I rest in the solace that God deals justly with spiritual abusers, because those who hide, laugh at, or do nothing about abuse when the info had been entrusted to them are in fact complicit in abuse. May the Lord heal your heart and spirit. May He be your peace.
I haven't been back to church either. I tried and went to what seemed like a good church about 4 times, then I stopped again. A year after I left my abuser I left the cult I was in for 28 years--22 of those were the 22 years I was married. I joined it when I was 16 and left it at 44. It's too much. I know I am God's Child and He loves me, but right now, I am not going to church.
BETTER be divorced than unequally yoked with an unreachable, mean and abusive unbeliever! Divorce can certainly be a gift from God; a way of escape from the yoke of the enemy.
Amen, sister
Yes!! As a Christian marriage and family therapist, I routinely see firsthand how much the church needs your wisdom on this subject. VERY well said. Thank you!
For people (mainly women, simply because that’s who her ministry is directed to) who need more in-depth guidance and support on this topic, I highly recommend looking up Leslie Vernick (her CZcams channel is an excellent resource).
When my Mum was married to my Dad he used to go out every night to meetings and leave my Mum with 2 little children. He didn’t ask her and often ended up as his Mums having supper. He said once “you’ll never leave me, you’re a Christian”. He didn’t lift a finger nor in his second marriage. He was an elder and respected man to his friends and church family.
This is a good lesson to just not hide who you are in church. You're going there because you're sick and need healing, so don't block yourself from it with a false front of positivity
Someone who is being abused is often coerced into putting on a fake smile or facing more wrath from their abuser when they’re alone with them. Abusers aren’t going to reveal to anyone in the church that they are abusing their family. They believe they’re right and entitled to act in whatever manner they choose.
Unfortunately, you can not trust every body in church. Some people at church fail to see when someone is truly hurting. There’s wheat (true believers) and there are tares (false believers/unbelievers) in every church. So, in reality, it’s hard to be vulnerable around everybody, especially those who should not be trusted (the tares).
Not everyone in church is trustworthy. That’s an unfortunate reality.
This needs to be talked about more. Especially with kids. I wish someone had told me how to do this when I was living with my mom. It did end up ripping my family apart and it would have been so nice to have church to fall back on instead of feeling alone.
My dad was EXACTLY like this to my mother. He was the man at church everyone loved him there, reasoning does not exist with him though, the moment you start reasoning he simply starts physical abuse. After 21 years of marriage she was able to separate herself from him, after I heavily persuaded her to do so. The amount of verbal abuse and isolation from this man towards my mom was extremely heart breaking.
I was cheering you on til the end Mike. I 100% agree with everything that was said until the resolution is basically “and then you’ll need to just live with the abusive spouse if there’s no luck resolving this with your church.” I think we have to think critically. During that time, women had to remain in the home or be destitute. Realistically, back in bible times you couldn’t just find a cheap apartment and pick up an extra part time job. That’s not the case anymore. The abusive spouse needs to own making changes to their behavior and if not, a separation should be instituted. If that doesn’t cause the spouse at fault to take stock and make changes, I’d argue the marriage covenant was abandoned.
💔😢 DUMB LAUGHTER AND GIGGLING is EXTREMELY INAPPROPRIATE while talking about excruciating painful things like this 😢💔
True, but sometimes fear and embarrassment due to the subject matter comes out as laughter.
Started nicely with gender neutral language like "spouse" but devolved quickly into the "husband" being the abuser. Was in a pastor's Sunday school class a couple weeks ago and he was talking about adultery. It was a pretty even mix of men and women in the group but the audience input was quickly devolving into a "man bashing" session due to a few ladies. Read about a study that found women cheated more than men up to the age of 30. After 30, men cheated more than women. My point being that abusers and the abused are found on both sides. Once the discussion starts dealing with only one side, it's only dealing with half of the problem.
My understanding was they had a specific question from a wife about her abusive husband that they eventually started referring to.. it seems this is a clip from a larger video so I'm not sure we have the entire context here. Hope that helps..
Thought about and accept those things as real possibilities for the context, but the vast majority of these discussions default to an example of an abusive man and almost never include one of an abusive woman. I know a man who was physically abused by his wife. When that husband spoke up, he was asked what he did to her to make her do that. You may initially think that is a valid question, but now imagine that was a wife being asked what she did to make her husband do that.
@@johntc8840 funny you mention that... I was asked that very question, what did I do to make him do that, by a man no less!
Today my crime was waking up with a broken leg to a dirty house..
Why can't we as humans be kinder to one another? That goes for both males and females ..
Thank you, well-needed advice.
Without waiting for the 2nd time for it to occur where I had to be hospitalized,,,,,I FLED!!!
I lost my baby my home and confidence in my husband who was a deacon,,,,,,,
It's been 40yrs now and I'm alive and well AND loving the right man,,,,
JESUS THE CHRIST
10 may 2024@ 8:28am
It’s hard with women to do. Especially if your spouse is a gaslighter. Then with his charm and charisma weaves his version of the story into your circles so you end up being the bad guy and you end up isolated. I’ve heard this story more times than I care to say.
I think very few pastors or church leaders are VERY Ill equipped to deal with matters of abuse. Especially since most pastors are men. Men have a very unique way or manipulating men. The o’l boys club if you will. Eye rolling and making jokes about how emotional women are “wink wink” …you know….. she totally over reacted “must have been on her period” on and on.
Churches need specially trained councillors to deal with such difficult matters or it just all becomes he said she said.
I agree--if the pastors do not have the training for dealing with abuse they should send the couple to a counselor who does.
You sound very bitter! I'd love to hear his side of the story. I'm sure you're not the innocent lamb you make out to be. Christ tells us to forgive those that wrong us as many times as it takes. Beside that, how are pastors or councillors supposed to know who's exaggerating or lying? Every single person in the world is two faced. It's tough to know. Your happy feelings are not the end goal of marriage. Your holiness is. Sometimes that means putting up with "abuse" (not physical of course) because you vowed before God that you would.
@@mattdillon4398 actually I’m in an amazing marriage to an even better man. He is more honouring than I could have dreamed of having . My reference is to the woman I’ve come across over the years who are terrified of their own shadows from the abuse they have experienced. And emotional manipulative abuse is as intolerable as physical vows or not. I believe vows include to honour and that behaviour is not honouring.
Oh and fyi, forgiveness is not a magic wand. It’s a process that for most people, especially those abused, years of processing, counselling, healing before it is achieved. I’m a sexual abuse survivor who knows first hand about how long the forgiveness journey takes and after having a nightmare of the abuse, laying it at the feet of the Jesus and forgive once again.
@@kaceyharms3135 Forgiveness is NOT a journey! Where did you get that from? Christ COMMANDS us to forgive and to do good to those that abuse us! You are also VERY wrong to equate mental abuse with actual physical violence. You really belittle the actual abuse that many women suffer by compairing it to mean words! Also, you now being in a happy marriage does NOT justify your previous divorce! You vowed for better or worse! I don't know your whole situation but it sounds like you're trying to justify leaving your first husband. What's done is done but don't try and justify it because he was mean to you, there is NO scripture to back you up.
@@mattdillon4398 We are commanded to forgive, yes, but especially in patterns of abuse that forgiveness can take time. You can choose to forgive but it will take time for the rest of you to heal. One month you’re just fine and the next minute you feel like it happened a second ago and you need to process that all over again.
Also, forgiveness holds with it responsibility. I can choose to forgive, but still hold a person accountable for their sinful patterns of behavior.
I LOVE THIS POST. Good job Mike!
I'll add this. It goes both ways in marriages (women abusing men) but the biggest area where I see an "outside Christian" personality and "at home abusive" personality is how we as parents treat our children. There are reasons for this that require empathy and understanding, but they should never be excuses.
So true. I thank you for bringing attention to "christian parenting." It's very concerning how accepted it seems to be, to not extend patience and grace to our children- yet we expect it in adult relationships. Parenting is so hard, and I have found that it's the biggest area of my life that reveals my own sin to me.
@@mbwilson8592 I have had to really work on my temper. There was a time when I would blow up once a year or so. I constantly watch over myself on this now and have improved lots and lots. For me, I had to take better care of myself (rest more) and also tell myself out loud and tell the kids that I'm starting to get frustrated so I need to take a break and then come back to deal with whatever normal family situation I am dealing with.
But to go to Mike Winger's point, I did get help from close friends at church too.
This is both of my parents. My dad's always been abusive, less so after he began going to church regularly, but he's still verbally demeaning and hyper-critical. After he started going to church, my mom began drinking heavily and finding ways to retaliate against him. She's openly admitted to me that she finds joy in his suffering; if he's angry, she considers it a victory for herself. She also eventually started going to church - "What would everyone think if I was the only one in the family NOT going?" - and is now also leading a double life, acting pious on Sunday mornings and then going straight back to drinking, swearing, blaspheming, etc. as soon as she leaves. She refuses to spend time with "judgemental old hags" from our congregation, because then they may see her true behavior. I've sent her verses that detail how to be a godly wife, and that those women can bring their husbands to the Lord also, but she ignores them. I've brought it up to her twice, both times she justified her actions by saying that he deserves it, and she doesn't need to change anything because she knows she's saved. I've showed her the bit in Matthew 18 so she can be aware of what's going to happen if she refuses to acknowledge her behavior. I don't know what's causing the disconnect in her mind, our church preaches doctrine pretty well and the "double life" issue has been brought up multiple times in sermons...she thinks that only applies to Dad, not her. It's time for me to approach her with the only other person who knows what she's doing, and try leading her toward reason. I'm not looking forward to it, but the Father has convicted me to talk to her.
such a great message about relationships