Life is a Proof for God, Right? (Abiogenesis & Biogenesis) | Jeff - PA | Talk Heathen 04.05
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Talk Heathen 04.05 for February 2, 2020 with Eric Murphy & Vi La Bianca.
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WHAT IS TALK HEATHEN?
Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
Talk Heathen is filmed in front of a live studio audience every week at the Freethought Library of the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop & support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing & friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of government-religion separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists & to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
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"I can't explain it therefore God"
Said by every theists
Gap bless!
mrjekyll andhyde and don't ask me to explain it lol
"I can explain it *to* you, but i cant understand it *for* you!"
In this guy's case it's so much worse than that.
He's outright saying, I refuse to believe this concept and definition that while not 100% certainly proven as to the exact way it happened yet but with very strong evidence for it at least being possible. And instead insisting on an idea that at it's core is disproven by EVERY BIT OF EVIDENCE WE HAVE. A consciousness without a corporeal form that didn't have a cause and exists outside of the universe.
We have absolutely every indication that all of these things individually each fly in the face of ALL the evidence we have regarding each of the individual concepts.
For him to be right, we have to be wrong about EVERYTHING we know and have misinterpreted ALL the evidence we have about EVERYTHING!
Theists are very fond of grossly misusing probabilities and statistical likelihoods, and even they would be hard pressed to make a case with their extremely sloppy misuse of statistics and probability for us being wrong about absolutely everything.
"Can life come from death?"
Well, when we die, our bodies starts to break down into base components and becomes one with the earth, which is then used as nurishment for new trees and flowers to grow so....
100%
The Circle of Life
Nourishment*
Caterpillars eat plants. Small birds eat caterpillars. Big birds eat small birds. Bac-ter-i-a eat the dead big birds.
Round and round, that's the way it goes. Life is like one big ring.
I love the fact that I come from a secular country and was not brainwashed as a child!
Jeff just accidentally argued that his god is a product of abiogenesis.
Why do I have to prove that life came from non-life if you don't have to prove life popped out of thin air because a magical sky daddy wished it?
It’s scary how common stupidity is
VlRGlL Yes, and dumb down people who watch children’s hour, which this program is
Tonald Drump 😂One must watch it to know. Be good now
VlRGlL true lol
Tonald Drump 😂One must watch it to know
It seems intelligence isn’t necessary to procreate so unfortunately natural selection is not helping us eliminate the unintelligent. We must do it ourselves. By education of course.
This is the depth of ingornace that propagates magical think that allows religion and superstition to continue
Totally agree with you. But you made a typo. I would fix it before some know it all would come and say that you whole argument is incorrect because your typo.
@@redeemedone8553 that statement itself shows that you're NOT his. And if god existe he's gonna punish you sending you to hell
I have this book, that was written hundreds of years ago from a copy of a copy, of some translated letters that nobody knows who wrote them. But the letters said that this guy put an even number of pebbles into a sealed jar. Some of the letters say they were sandstone peoples, another one says they were polished marble, and another says granite. It doesn't matter though, because they all agree that it was an even number!
We know it's true because other letters say that thousands of years before, somebody said that one day a dude would put an even number of pebbles in the jar.
So you have to believe me because I know that the number of pebbles in the jar is even, Ok?
Eric handled this beautifully. Jeff's religion & ego is in his way. I hope he listens to this video & learns. He is on the path to learning more. Keep learning Jeff.....
Jeff - PA "God is real because it feels good"
Eric "just because something feels good doesn't make it true, can you provide proof for your claim?"
Jeff " No because evidence and everything else feels bad"
"Consciousnesses is the source of all life"
I bet even the average christian must cringe when these callers represent them
Dan Ryan life is the source of consciousness but consciousness isn’t the source of life
@@michalblasko8740
The fuck are you in about All animals have conciousness. All life is Sentient however Sapiens among life is not equalent and it goes in degrees. Humans having deceloped the highest level odmf sapiens while apes, crows and other life in turn after us, with Dolphins being arguably equivalent to us.
Science does not care what you beleive. NEXT!
Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.
“I don’t think it’s logical that death can bring about life.”
And who said it did? It’s impossible to have conversations with people like this.
It's really sad and kinda heartbreaking when you hear a sweet, kind and by appearance a loving person like Jeff not understand his own disrespect in the face of that love and just parrot back the disrespect in pretty language.
I cant listen to this bollocks, I'm out.
Disliked this channel for the first time
mike dakin 😂Yes, it’s like children’s hour including the panel who make it happen
mike dakin I love it it is 100 percent hilarious
This guys “logic” is “If life comes from life then all life comes from life.” So profound. 😆😆😆
It's sad to see someone understand the gumball analogy on their first try, then immediately miss the point when presented with the fact that they are the one saying the gumballs are even in this situation.
What a wonderful person Jeff is. I think you guys and your show examplafiy treating people with respect while treating their ideas with the respect they earn based on evidence. Wonderful conversation.
Jeff does seem like a nice guy. It did seem like he finally got the gumball analogy. Hopefully he'll continue his search.
Is nobody curious about what was going on in the background?
Absolutely dying to know!!
I'm betting the audience member was having a cow when the cohost said there were lab experiments in which life was produced.
@Jonny Sevent
She may have been referring to the Urey-Miller experiment which, of course, produced amino acids, not life.
There was also that time microbiologists replaced the genome in some bacteria with DNA they put together (mostly from another bacteria) and the science news headlines read, "Scientists create cells/life in the lab" which was very misleading.
I hope the audience member got a chance to correct her off camera, if that's what the ruckus was about.
@Stefan Dingenouts
LOL, me too!
ron clark yea probably. As soon as I heard her say that I was like “nope we only got to the building blocks so we can’t go that far just yet.”
Preceding ad is for a bible college. I find this hilarious
MrPtruxio right, had three theistic ads recently. Funny thing is they often recite the same shit being rebuffed in the video but more concise.
Love the show and the vibe you guys have. So patient! Point of clarification- Vi said there are lots of examples of life coming from non-life in the lab. It's true that the study of how complex chemistry can produce the building blocks of life had simulated primordial Earth and produced amino acids and protein chains but not life itself. But we're getting closer to understanding how chemistry becomes biology.
Luckily we have the likes of advanced scientific innovators like Kent Hovind looking into the matter. We are lucky to have him as we need the finest scientific minds the world has to crack the puzzle. Ray Comfort is donating some prayers to the cause which will also help massively.
So what do you call it when we stick an egg and sperm together and make a zygote?
atheist = abiogenesis
theist = biogenesis
the extra a in the word is what we get when tested, theists need to study some more before they get an a
@Stefan Dingenouts The caller didn't believe abiogenesis was possible so 'ehm' yes, what happened next after that wasn't being discussed.
Are you just trying to sound smart for the other children while reading and copy pasting from Wikipedia?
Maybe you can explain human reproduction next, try to include pictures this time.
@Stefan Dingenouts And just what's wrong with on how the evolution of life started?
Theists claim that the evolution of life started with biogenesis and atheists claim it started with abiogenesis.
You just decided that the answer was wrong because it didn't say what happened next, you sound like a teaching assistant.
You are one of those guys that thinks he's the smartest one in the room and feels the need to explain it in more detail because the rest wouldn't understand it otherwise.
We've heard quite a bit from Jeff, over many calls on various shows. It's always one baseless assertion after another. He's so confused, but he's too invested in his own ideas and beliefs that he can't see it
Trees are conscious! Ever heard of an ent!?
Life can only come from life ?
That sounds like an infinite series to me.
All whole numbers are preceded by another whole number.
So there is no first number. There is no first life. Therefore the creator does not exist.
life could not have existed at the singularity. If at no other time in history, we can be absolutely certain that there was no life then: life is defined in myriad ways, but all involve life supervening on matter. There was no matter at the singularity. There was no matter for a decent bit of time (in the scale of cosmological epochs) before matter could condense out of the chaos that was the universe above the Hagedorn temperature (above which hadronic matter cannot condense). There is life now. Therefore there *WAS* a first life.
Also, if you're going to claim that an infinite series/regress is some sort of deal breaker, it's on you to provide evidence that it is a vicious regress. There are virtuous regresses and vicious regresses...
@@TheSnoeedog
I agree with you, there had to be a time when there was no life (gene copying machines).
Probably the first forms of life were complicated chemical structures that multiplied somehow.
You probably wouldn't class them as living organisms until cell walls developed.
How that happened is a mystery, but I'm sure it wasn't magic.
@@TheSnoeedog
I don't believe "life can only come from life".
But it is a common mantra of creationists.
They forget that their creator has a life, albeit a celestial one.
Ask them, where did his life come from and they suddenly change their tune.
I think sometimes Eric is overcomplicating stuff
Matt Dillahunty does a similar thing to get people to see their own mistake in logic. It's necessary some times.
@@franktherealist481 meh, I feel like he could get to the point far more quickly and clearly sometimes. In those instances I'm critical of I feel he hurts his purpose and actually manages to also confuse the caller further.
@@cemrecevikoz I kind of agree but it still does serve a purpose.
@@cemrecevikoz confuse the caller ?I think hes already confused enuff ! I genuinely remember when I was a teenager being stoned as fuck and thinking what I reckoned were deep thoughts,suddenly I knew the answer ?consciousness was the root of everything it was obvious it was perfect,I knew how everything worked,then I tried to remember how I got to this conclusion and it melted away,I couldn't remember anything,I reckon this dude was still wasted and was doing the same false bullshit brain farting that I did,lol !mine only lasted seconds but wow what a feeling,top o the world man !!! Hahaha
Eric said "Put your God on the phone" Haha Hahahaha you are crazy funny bro lol
Premise 1) Life only comes from life
Premise 2) The first life was a life
Conclusion, the first life came from a life
Hmmm. That's a contradiction. Something is wrong.
I was hoping Jeff could construct his argument this way. The problem seems people who casually consider these concepts are not well equipped and I fear it's a failing of education to not give people the best tools to go through life with.
@Stefan Dingenouts
If consciousness can only come from consciousness, you get the same problem.
If life only comes from life, then we have in infinite series, which means we don't need a god.
If life can come from non-life, then we don't need a god to explain life.
Many arguments for a god can be demolished by the same simple logic.
@Stefan Dingenouts
Butt they love logical arguments.
They have amassed hundreds of logical arguments that prove the god of Israel exists.
Mind you, the same arguments can also prove that the god of Egypt exists.
In fact, it a simple matter to prove there are an infinite number of gods.
“Tautologies are enlightening”
Wow, wet things are wet. So profound. 😂
Chemistry is amazing. We can create life from non life in labs now... we've done it. We have no real way to know what the chemical state of earth was a million years ago. For all we know the type of life needed to start a base for our evolution can only be created under those conditions and life on other planets under different conditions will create life in different ways. Evolution supports that idea
We haven't created life in the lab. We have created custom genomes and injected them into cells which had their genomes removed. That is not abiogenesis. Vi was incorrect when she stated that we had created life in the lab.
Clarke Craig venter didnt? That's news to me
"Can I put my god on the phone..."
I got a good chuckle from the way he said that 😆
nice conversation
The sly smile on Vi's face when Jeff said I don't know....
Is Jeff's God alive? Isn't life something that has a beginning amd an end? Technically, even in that model, life comes from "non-life"
Life has pretty strict defenition and Christians god doesn't meet that. It doesn't eat, doesn't breed etc.
@@ImperatorofNonsense actually that's one of the problems i see with creationist. "Life" is a tag that we put on things that have certain processes. But the further we go we found things that don't fill our definitions but are also not "death" like virus, technically they don't eat.
@@juangarza320 it's part of bigger problem with creationists. They never have real definitions so they could move goal posts again and again using shit like kinds etc.
Lol he walked right into that gumball analogy. Didn’t even realize it until it was already too late. 😂😂😂
This is necessary. Life breeds on life, breeds on life, breeds on life...
Eric at 3:09 is literally me whenever I attempt to have a discussion about the Christian god. I’m just like 🤷🏻♀️ what!?
How does a person screw up the gumball analogy so badly
jeff is going to call you back ... i am definitely going to fast-forward through THAT call. i feel dumb enough having listened to this one in its entirety.
Organic materials combined in the right conditions over a long period of time to make amino acids and proteins, which became increasingly complex. Simple.
You got this guy confused 😂 like he’s struggling with the gum balls now lol
"The reason I'm doing that is because I don't know what I'm talking about, and have not talked to a biologist about this"
There, fixed it for ya.
Any attempt on search of any sort of proof of existence of God might lead to undesirable psychotic disorders. Just live life fully with righteous mind and joy. Life is a rare pearl during our short journey on earth. If we keep solving the unsolvable problem: existence of God, we will surely miss the pearl and bliss of life. Opinion or not, try to meditate on it!
We must always remember that half the people on the planet are below average, and about seventy MILLION are in the BOTTOM ONE PERCENT.
Jeff is a perfect example of the failure of our education system. The internet can really help bridge the gap between ignorance and knowledge. Jeff needs to do some homework.
Sean Jones homework about what?
@@Mrpargmatic Oh you sad, pathetic nothing.
@@Mrpargmatic All the questions he has. Science has answered most of his questions. The world is a wondrous place and the internet can help you learn more about how amazing it really is. No magic is necessary.
@@Mrpargmatic can u pray to your god and make a new circuit board? Or some kind of prediction?
Derek Mizer nope, why would I do that? If I need technology I’d ask engineers. I don’t understand your point
Did a mind create Jupiter ?
How about Alpha Centauri ?
How about the billions of galaxies that have been discovered in the last 100 years ?
It seems like a lot of work for very little outcome.
Is Jamie coming back to the show?
My IQ is dropping so hard listening to this guy.
its OK just dont let your soul drop to hell
Big Cricket What evidence do you have that a Hell even exists?
Kilotip1 The earth's core is hot and conscious _-|-_
@@jeziscricket4448 Earth's core is conscious...? You've gotta be a troll.
life causes life is superficially satisfying(deepity or whatever), if we look closer at the apparent historical behavior we see that the trend is life gets simpler the further back in time you go and extrapolation would indicate the likely existence of an abiogenesis event.
Does talk heathen have a podcast or is that just atheist experience?
They are a Podcast similar to the Atheist Expirience
"Deepity" was _not_ coined by Daniel Dennett, but by the teenaged daughter of a friend of his. As I recall, she used it in a dinner conversation, at which Dennett was present.
Eric "You don't get to put that in us, that's not okay" Murphy
Eric should have gone down the road of 'my loved one told me that the gumballs were odd' then 'my loved one and I are so interconnected that I can feel that they know that the gumballs are odd' but then to have left it up in the air as to whether there actually was a loved one
Most painful gumball analogy ever. Sheesh
We get a lot of the building blocks of life including most of the elements on the periodic table from dying stars exploding. So yes Jeff, life does come from death
I don’t know of an experiment where we saw life come from non life, I think I know of the experiments she’s referring to but it would be much bigger news had they generated a living organism from nothing. Afaik they have shown how some precursor molecules to rna etc could come about in an early earth environment.
Abiogenesis is a huge red herring. There are a lot of unknowns. The current scientific hypothesis may be completely wrong, but that doesn't make creationism true. The reasonable response to "God did x" is "so you don't know?".
We have already set up experiments that results in proteins, building blocks of animal life, from chemical compounds held in conditions similar to what earth was like prior to it's atmosphere. Is it 100%, probably not . . . is it enough to warrant and continue further research, yes.
Oh geez this caller
It kind of annoys me how religious people almost demand an answer for everything while they can't provide a straight answer for anything, we don't have an answer for everything we probably never will. I don't know is an acceptable answer to a question.
what was that word for something that sounds profound but isnt please anybody ?
I kinda admire your patience in dealing with these non-sensical believers who delve into all sorts and variations of the God fantasy to argue their "faith" into a reality that others (like you) will believe.
I kinda like how Matt loses his patience at times and just "let am have it" before hanging up ( then giving them some more).
The simple question is "how did life begin?" natural causes or supenatural (God). Science tries to explain all things by natural causes, including life. This is the theory of abiogenesis. There are several mechanisms proposed for this which are being tested. The God theory lacks any mechanism and is therefore untestable and unhelpful.
Supernatural cause doesn't default to a god... Just saying.
Biogenesis and abiogenesis are the two options of the origin of life ON EARTH. An example of biogenesis is some life form arriving on Earth via asteroids and spreading all over the planet. Eventually though I don't see how everything should not reduce to an original abiogenesis. Even if a god was involved, I do not consider a god a form of life anyway.
@Jonny Sevent Definitely.
Creationist logic:
Life has never been created, therefore life must be created????
Nos that shit messed up my heart...I might be drinking it wrong
Can the color red come from something that's not red?
This further proves how shocking a lack of education is to observe
This wasn't a bad call .. he was a kool guy
Lets all agree that "consciousness" is not a thing that was ever created.
It is a term used to describe a certain kind of complicated process in the brain.
If you have a brain, then there is a good chance that you are conscious some of the time.
I am not conscious all the time and I certainly will not be conscious when my brain is dead.
As that motorcyclist who hit the tree too hard, going too fast around a bend can surely attest to ! Now, where's the nearest medium ?
I thought abiogenesis hasn’t been discovered yet. That only amino acids have arisen from organic materials. Which is a big step! But... am I out of date with more recent scientific discoveries?
Jeff is as sharp as a bowling ball!!!
He keeps using the term biogenesis as an opposing proposal to abiogenesis. Biogenesis was the opposing idea to spontaneous generation that eventually led to germ theory.
Biogenesis is just life from life. When you were born, biogenesis pretty much
Are plants considered life?
Life comes from death all the time, this man forgot that everything alive needs to eat and very few things survive that process
Even if he believes god created life.
He still believes in abiogenesis, albeit a magical version.
Just lol @ people in the comments. 4 billion odd years is nowhere near enough time to randomly stumble upon the information required to build life. There is a finite number of life forms(generation), because time itself is finite in relation to life on the planet. It's not possib
When a Forest burns and kills all living vegetation, the next season it starts to grow back, life from death
I've never seen the gumball thing take so long to get through.
Funny thing is, he understood it right away, and THEN struggled with it.
There is an idea abroad that there is a thing called "life".
Having admitted that there is such a thing, we then have to find out how "life" was created.
And the religious folk will leap on that problem and announce they have found the answer.
So, right at the start, it's best to deny the existence of "life". Problem solved.
I remember him calling in before..it's his voice and demeanor. But moving on.
Someone needs to explain to him how the human brain functions and operates. We know exactly where logic, reason, rationality, critical thinking and other like, process, operate, start and function in the brain and the nuero pathways they take to happen.
Those are left brain hemisphere functions and strictly and solely left brain.
We also know the same for religious thought, belief,faith, concepts, ideologies, idealisms, experiences, and feelings related to such along with thought related to within it. Those are right brain hemisphere functions and processes and solely right brain.
As far as has been tested, measured, observed and demonstrated..no human yet has been able to use the right brain areas and pathways and also be using the left side. Why? Because as said above each operate solely independent of the other. Without the other side being used. Ergo one uses the right side in any form of deitism, religion, ideologies from it..it is void of the left brain side that causes logic, reason, rationality, critical thinking and etcetera. The two can't work together. They work independently and the other side can't work with it.. one has to choose which side they will use.
If he wants to use logic as he claims..he has to forgo and forget the creator, god, deitism, religion concepts and other areas..and use only left side.. if he wants to use those right sides then he has to forgo and forget the left side..logic, reason, rationality etcetera. This is how the brain works for us humans. It just is what it is..it's FACT.
Many test studies have been done on it and so far out of many thousands.. infact thousands upon thousands have been tested and ALL fail to be able to use both sides together in these areas. The caller is no different..he used religious beliefs, faith ideologicalisms which are of right brain functions..thus it is void of left brain functions..like logic.
So he's christian and doesn't believe in abiogenesis?.
Did he read his Bible .. Genesis ? Pretty sure there was nothing.. Then life.
Life is proof of life
"life comes from life "... Great, so he accepts evolution. Progress.
Now that he accepts evolution, the old testament can be trivially proven wrong.
Now that we've proven the old testament wrong, is there any reason to believe in the Christian God?
i thought we were star dust is star dust from rock
Q: Did god create life?
A: Yes
Q: So there was no life before god created it?
A: That is true.
Q: That's abiogenesis. Now you need to demonstrate that is how it happened.
We see examples of life from non life everywhere and every day.
A plant turns non living dirt into living plant matter.
I agree that my example doesn't fit his context.
But also think about the implications of my example within its own context. Think of what it would mean to present this argument with all its implications and not allow it to be so easily dismissed.
We have an entirely natural example of non-living matter turning into living matter. In fact, it's so natural, so ubiquitous, and so common that we don't even think of it as anything special.
Plants mostly turn water and air into plant matter, but your point stands with the clarification that extant living cells are creating new living cells.
@@wabbajack2 yes, I wrote that 3 years ago. But plants are mostly water and the carbon from the air.
I've no idea what a 'dippity' is either... maybe something that goes in front of a 'doo-dah' (which, in English usage is another word for a ''thingumajig').
Isn’t it kind of redundant to say “intellectual honest”? What other kinds of honest/dishonest are there? Erotically honest? Aesthetically honest?
He basically contradicted himself and played the virtual mental gymnastics needed to identify God in the fantasy driven world Christians live in. This God of theirs, being omnipotent as he is, can crush the doubt in one thought but does he? More importantly, will he? Why I ask that is becuase if our souls and chances to make it into heaven is threatened, why does God expect us to jump through vague and ambiguous hoops of nonsense as proof of his existence. He knows what it takes to make us believe he exists. It is incumbent upon him to demonstrate himself especially when he's catered this world against us in not seeing the supernatural as we see the world physically. That's on him. No living being has ever seen this God. That's fact. So, it is what it is. Atheism isn't a denial of God. It's a disbelief. If God is real and actually gave a damned, we'd believe. We don't because the evidence is lacking... severely.
Ray comfort is from New Zealand. You just insulted us Australians
He lost it completely when he said the word " logically" lol
Gumballs FTW!
~4 minutes in: Without this comment there would be no comment. Did he really mean to say that...?
Without the Lord Of The Rings movies, there wouldn't be Lord Of The Rings movies.
Checkmate atheists!
Soooo...humans came from dirt? Is dirt suddenly alive?
my new favorite meme, id something is said that is so stupid you get spock eye!
And just like magic god said bionesi!
The blind leading the blind.
i see what you mean.
Did he call in high or drunk!? He was thinking that they was not going to educate them?