Justifying Eternal Punishment from an All-Powerful God | Jonathan-AZ | Talk Heathen 04.27
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- Talk Heathen 04.27 for July 5, 2020 with Vi La Bianca & Shannon Q.
SHOW TIME-STAMPS
00:00 Intro
03:50 Marlon-PH | Personal Miracle: My Food Replenished Itself because I Was Hungry!
22:48 Levi-MI | Nindo. In. Disguise.
25:01 Itto-AR | Psychological Damage of My Past Religion
39:52 Jonathan-AZ | Justifying Eternal Punishment from an All-Powerful God
1:02:00 Steve-AZ | My Wife Wants to Send Our Kid to Church Camp
1:16:02 Evan-OH | Religion & Hell Ideas Led Me to Drug Use
1:37:19 Michael-CO | Jesus Mythicism Seems Compelling, but Lacks Academic Backing
SHOW NOTES
Greetings Heathens! Today’s episode is brought to you by, please for all that is holy and unholy, listen to Dr. Fauci and wear your damned mask in public! The life you could save is a loved one or somebody’s mother.
Let’s get to calls. The first caller is a returning caller, Marlon from the Philippines. He would like to talk about how God has shown himself to him through miracles. Claims to have experienced the same increase of food that Jesus did during the sermon on the mount/loaves and fishes story. Shannon breaks it down for him. It could be hallucinations!
Next up, Itto from Arkansas would like to talk about their experiences as not only a blind person and an atheist from a very religious country. She wants to provide information about how religions negatively use disabled people and the psychological damage that is the result.
The following caller named Jonathan from Arizona would like to talk about Hell. He has a problem about the quote from Matt about how is it fair for God to enact eternal punishment for finite crimes. Shannon moves in to ask about how we are finite beings and only has a certain amount of time to ask for “forgiveness for sins from God.” The clock is ticking sinners!
Steve from Arizona called in specifically to talk to Shannon. His question is about how to safeguard his son in going to a camp that is overwhelmingly religious. He ponders if this will be harmful and dangerous to his son’s interest with critical thinking and science.
Evan in Ohio is up next, wanting to talk about the brain and the soul. He is also terrified of Hell due to previous drug use and doesn’t seem to want to let go of the idea of the eternal soul. Shannon takes the reins on this call and helps guide him hopefully to a good solution. Best of Luck on your journey Evan.
Michael in Denver our last caller of the day, he would like to talk about mysticism and the Jesus myth. He also is looking into the historical Jesus/Yeshua and whether he truly existed or not. Shannon and Vi really dig into this call and provide the knowledge and resources from an academic standpoint.
That’s it for today’s episode folks! Stay safe and healthy out there. Thank you to all the essential workers, you are here for us and we are here for you.
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WHAT IS TALK HEATHEN?
Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
Talk Heathen is filmed in front of a live studio audience every week at the Freethought Library of the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop & support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing & friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of government-religion separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists & to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
CONTACTS & SOCIAL MEDIA
Instagram:
Eric Murphy: Erictheheathen
Vi La Bianca: vilabianca
Twitter:
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Vi La Bianca: @AuthorConfusion
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NOTES
The views and opinions expressed by hosts, guests, or callers are their own and not necessarily representative of the Atheist Community of Austin.
Opening Theme:
Ethan Meixsell "Takeoff"
/ talkheathen is the official channel of Talk Heathen. "Talk Heathen" is a trademark of the ACA.
Copyright © 2017 Atheist Community of Austin. All rights reserved.
If god wanted us to believe in him, he would have existed.
Best quote ive read all day.
Diogo Emiliano Thank you. Unfortunately, I can’t claim it as my own. I first read it a few years ago. It was a woman who was involved in the running of the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. I’ve forgotten her name but never forgotten the comment!
Diogo Emiliano Here’s another good one - “If we’re all gods children, what made Jesus so special?” That one is from Jimmy Carr the comedian.
cease to exist Evidence for what?
cease to exist I’m sorry but I’m confused. First you request evidence for something, then you ask for an alternative. Alternative to what exactly?
There is a difference between punishment and torture. That nails it for me.
Punishing people for thought crimes is monstrous.
Master Ikem
It absolutely is a totally natural part of being alive.
It’s yet another nail in the coffin of this disgusting religion.
God is sorta like Big Brother in George Orwell's 1984.
The catholic church's favorite gotcha, Thought control is an imperative.
Anyone who tries to justify Hell is disgusting.
@Almighty Jesus He would punish you too for using his name
@Almighty Jesus : The point of a punishment is to learn a lesson. Hell is devoid of that and it's not even that you go because you were a bad person, but because you didn't believe in God...when God should've been the one to make his presence clear if he really wants a relationship with humans.
@Almighty Jesus : This confirms that you're probably hearing voices in your head and you need psychiatric help. Or you're a troll with no life who tries to get an arise from people instead of actually giving arguments.
@Almighty Jesus: I mean if he truly WANTS people to know he exists, he should be more than able to do it. However, he instead plays a game of hide and seek most likely for eons upon eons allowing enough time to pass to where mankind makes other gods and myths.
@Almighty Jesus your god says he is all knowning that is a lie
Repeat caller Jonathan has the ability to have incredibly cheerful discussions justifying a literal fate worse than death, and I find that incredibly chilling.
This is one of the scariest parts of religion. To be so cavalier about *ETERNAL TORTURE* means that nothing horrible is off the table. If your god tells you to do horrible things to others i do not know how you can sufficiently persuade me to believe you'd actually do the right thing and ignore that request.
"Punishment for punishment's sake". You nailed it, Vi.
@Almighty Jesus : Well, if you had a kid, would you keep them trapped in a basement that's on fire?
@Almighty Jesus What is hell? Where is hell? Show it to us. Show us a person in hell. Hurry, the whole internet is waiting, and you might get a small prize. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
@Almighty Jesus You may need help.
@@andrebrown8969 "may"? He's 6 kinds of batshit crazy!
@Almighty Jesus
No, if you're going to pretend to express a logical choice, It would have to be Jesus or not-Jesus. I choose not-Jesus.
How can anyone who has been watching the Atheist Experience for ten years still be a Christian?
they weren't bright to begin with.
By going 'tralala I can't hear you' for ten years.
And he even says at 19:26, "...my belief in Christianity has only become stronger given the arguments that I've learned in the past." What!? I know the blinders of Christianity are very powerful but I'm really having trouble understanding how this can be, too!
@@briand.reynolds474 I think his belief must grow stronger because of the "circle the wagons" tribalism effect. When a group feels threatened, they react by bonding more closely together and further emphasizing tribal identity, the differences between "us" and "them" (e.g., national "pride," Jewish traditions held dear during diaspora, Muslim women choosing to wear hijab because group pride in opposition to Islamophobia is more important to them than freedom from sexist oppression, etc.). I suspect this had survival value for our ancestors, unfortunately, so the behavioral, genetic predisposition was passed down and spread in the gene pool. ////Bunny kisses for all!
Motivated reasoning. At least not plain good ol' fashioned reasoning.
God keeps us 'alive' for ever to keep punishing us.
Torturing. Punishment is only punishment when it's deserved.
Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he didn't want us to have fun in paradise for ever, but he loves to torture us for eternity in hell. Nice guy, jahweh.
@@peteralleyman1388 SIN IS NOT WHY TORTURE IS JUST WRONG WHY CAN YOU NOT SEE WHY !!!! IM CHRISTIAN BUT IM SORRY BRO ITS JUST WRONG IF I DONT WISH IT ON NOBODY I WOULDN'T CREATE THE FLAMING ROCKS AN PITCHFORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE IM SURE YOU WOULDN'T CREATE SUCH A PLACE CAUSE OF SOMETHING YOU CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE
Vi and Shannon are each so incisive and articulate, yet come from different perspectives. Great team.
I love these two. They’re brilliant and a lot easier to look at than Matt 😅
Don't talk to me about Hell! I lived in Tennessee!
Me too bud 😂
It seems like the "yeah that's a good question, I'll give that a lot of thought" is the new way apologists use to seemingly disarm and dispatch questions that are designed by atheists to point out the flaws in their positions, and to continue on script without a hitch.
Stunning how there is a technique for this.
Jamal Grant, That IS getting irritating. I used to think it was used in good faith. But not anymore.
Yes, it goes along with the “I used to be an atheist, then I found god” rubbish.
Nobody is fooled by that.
@@budd2nd I sometimes believe it, because people are atheist for all kinds of reasons, some of them bad.
Being an atheist does not equal having (or using) critical thinking skills.
If you don't use good thinking skills when also you just don't happen to have an active belief, stands to reason you could easily "find God" through the same kind of coincidences, brain glitches, and 3rd party anecdotes that some theists are convinced by.
But the ones who describe themselves as an atheist who was angry at God, etc.... Yeah, they are full of crap. No one who is an atheist says they are angry at god, or testing god, or praying to a god they don't believe in. That's something that theists put on us, pretending we say it, so they can shoot it down. Very dishonest.
I have a feeling he'll "give it thought" by trying to reconcile it with his holy book.
Shannon Q is drinking from the TARDIS. Brillint!
He’s really good at avoiding answering their questions. “Let me think about that and get back to you.” and then back to his taking points.
Vi's eyes are insanely pretty
Yeah I see it 👀
When a parent starts thinking they're a god, and punishes their kids for every imaginable infraction, we stick 'em in prison and throw away the key.
God isn't the alpha or the omega, he's a total beta.
Nicolas Broszky Apparently you don’t speak intelligently or understand nuances either. It’s okay; it’s a frequent occurrence on the internet.
@Nicolas Broszky who pissed in your Post Toasties today?
@Nicolas Broszky k hope that works out for you then bye
@Nicolas Broszky praising of whatthefuck? Are we even having the same conversation?
@Nicolas Broszky I've never known less about what I've done to piss somebody off than I do right now. This is weird and I'm out.
The answers were nice, but they missed some good points. Torture is immoral. We don't do it, even to the most heinous serial rapist and killer. God would do it, simply for the "crime" of not believing in illogical and immoral stories. Human beings are more moral than this "god." So even if he were real, we should not follow his example, much less worship him.
"Enhanced Interrogation" at Abu Ghraib wants a word....We do it.
there's this place just south of florida....I think there's a move called rendition, as well as the documentary upon which it's based...open your eyes
you don't do it to the most depraved killers, but you do it to people with brown skin if they have even the whiff of suspicion (as regards the Big T-word)
If Jonathan is going to truly take time to think? He is inches away from Atheism, because Christians are aggressively trained and encouraged to not think. Welcome Jonathan! It's a lovely and moral place to be!
Damn....shannon dropped the coldest question I think I've ever heard on talk or experience....nice...
MindCreatedAll playing fast and loose with the discussion highlights again?
The discussion topic hinges on the fairness and use of punishment, so when a god allegedly creates you and imbues you with critical thinking that you come to the conclusion that, with the evidence before us, there is no reason to believe in a god and yet said god still chooses to punish you for simply being and acting the way that he/she/it/ meant for you to be, then why punish you for it?
How is that fair or useful when there is no redemption or rehabilitation?
Your argument implies that this life is some sort of test by which in the end we will all be weighed and measured when you have no reason to believe that; unless you choose to follow an antiquated ideological system that preys on people’s common fears, rather than go down the rabbit hole and find that there is no way of critically knowing what is, in fact, true.
@MindCreatedAll, if God created us and our souls and some of us live 100 years and some live a day why bother creating us at all. Why not just create a soul and let us go to heaven? Why force us to live and prove we deserve to be in heaven?
@MindCreatedAll "NO ATHEIST CAUSE (e.g. star dust, moist rock, mud puddle, soup) has the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE OR MEANS to create/design the human being or anything else."
Prove first we need a creator.
@MindCreatedAll "Well, we all know that by cause and effect, all things that come into existence, has purpose. And I submit to you that we are here on purpose. And like it or not, our purpose is not to make money and pay bills all our days. Our purpose is to decide in whom will we serve: Satan or G0D. And true “life” begins in Heaven, because everything here on earth is temporary; therefore, meaningless and worthless."
Except the bible make no mention of people going to heaven after they die.
@MindCreatedAll That's dishonest. You're talking about causation, not a creator. You need to prove the need for a creator.
One of the problems with the concept of hell is that it serves no purpose, it's nonsensical.
Generally speaking, punishment serves two functions. It discourages someone from doing a particular action again, and it discourages _others_ from doing that action as well.
Hell is described as a place you _never_ get out of. It's punishment for _eternity._ Since the person being punished never gets out, that negates the first reason we punish people. This person is now only existing to be punished for punishment's sake, which I should hope people understand is an atrocious, monstrous thing to do.
The second problem is that we have _no evidence that hell exists._ It's a place that _only_ exists in stories and according to those stories you only see it when you're dead, and thus it's impossible for anyone to serve as an example to discourage others from doing wrong, which negates the second main reason for punishment.
So even by the basic, simplistic methods we go about punishing people, hell is nonsensical. Claiming "justice" as a reason besides those two is just bloodlust, that's barbaric and not even worth addressing.
The Christian hell only serves to scare Christians into compliance with their mythological beliefs.
@@pauligrossinoz Basically, yes. If you can't make them believe with the carrot of infinite happiness, scare them with the stick of infinite torment. Yet so few seem to realize this...really, really basic manipulation. That, or they've been indoctrinated from such a young age that their ability to recognize this manipulation has been greatly hindered.
A forever punishment for any crime done by a mortal is by definition heinous
I think Jonathan is very indoctrinated in the meaning of justice.
@Almighty Jesus You are also heavily INDOCTRINATED!
@Almighty Jesus You just called me a fool, so therefore you are far from enlighten. Now what do wanna talk about?
@Almighty Jesus Return to the children's table and enjoy your delicious plate of dog feces with mayonnaise, same thing served at The Last Supper. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
We're did he Go? I had something for him!
Same
Wasn’t prepared for the question? Maybe because most don’t give to much depth in thinking this all the way through. I’m glad he said he will give this more thought.
It's because it was off topic from his planned responses
@@kaila2932 sort of... But it seemed like an honest _"I don't know, and rather than give a half baked, knee jerk answer, I'll think about it and call back when I have sorted it out in my head."_ It is possible that that is the question that breaks his belief, as Shannon said it was for her.
Very disturbing the lack of critical thought on the matter, especially after listening to his 'testimony' at the end. I know I thought about both those questions, and then some. That he didn't.. doesn't pass the smell test.
@@ConcealedCourier yeah, the end is a bit... hmmm... fishy.
@MindCreatedAll God can go fuck himself - "believe in me for no good reason!" is the motto, and "I made a rule that I can't show myself". This is basically an (imaginary) God screening for gullible people - only the gullible are welcome in heaven.
Wow! Shannon Q has blown me away! I've watched Atheist Experience for years and know every argument. She's come up with something fresh and new. All of a sudden, I'm missing Tracie and Jen less.
Imagine Tracie and Shannon on the same show tho
I really appreciate Vi's first description about the goal of punishment, and how eternal punishment doesn't really have one.
God is our father.
We inherit sin from our parents.
Jesus died to save us.
Great !
Shannon q laying out perfectly my biggest objection to Christianity. Why can Hitler go to hell and the most moral person to ever walk the earth that does not believe in God cant? It just makes no sense at all.
@Adam Roberts yep
Great discussion, and I love Shannon's mug!
Great convosateions :) enjoyed the dialogue
Great job you two!
Vi's argument of comparative punishment by God and our courts was solid and logically sound. The caller was trying to equate both when they are clearly not.
Love this caller.... and Vi+ShannanQ are a BANGING team
I love these hard, moral questions!
This guys personality was extremely refreshing
Rationalizing infinite punishment for finite crimes, especially the "crime" of non-belief introduces a cognitive dissonance that only a theist can embrace.
Can you imagine going to hell for not believing in God , I wonder if the other God's have the same system? It would be worse than any prison sentence for just not believing in something wow!
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3'17-18)
@@Mike.Freeman No,what they haven't believed are words, (written by humans)
in an ancient book.
Mike Freeman So what about those who die as babies, or the aborted or miscarried? THEY did not “believe”, so according to you, they are “condemned” . Is hell full of babies then?
@@Mike.Freeman - what about the untold millions of humans born before Jesus was killed?
That's not a fair system. Obviously it's wrong.
If we actually organized our justice system ethically, prison wouldn't be a punishment. It'd be a quarantine/rehabilitation center. Sating our primal desire for retribution is proven to be worse in the long run not just for the people undergoing that treatment, but ourselves. A system that abuses inmates only hardens them into a life of crime as their only option, making the prison door a revolving one, while a system built to lift them up out of the situation that forced them to turn to crime, shockingly, will lower crime overall.
@Almighty Jesus Yes, I agree that the way our criminal justice system is set up is anything but just. That's why I said if it _were_ ethical it would be something that it is not.
In order for rehabilitation to work, you need some way to test if a person has been rehabilitated. Perhaps someday we can do that, but I don't see a way at the moment.
That's how most of central Europe, especially northern Europe sees it's prison system.
I went to jail and spent 5 days and nights in solitary confinement as I was on suicide watch even though I had spent 2 weeks in a mental hospital with 24hr observation.
It was not pleasant.
I love what you said at 5.40 Shannon
Jonathan.... Charles Manson, in a couple of interviews towards the End of his life said 'dont let me out.... I'm NOT good for society'....
However I STILL would treat him humanely
In fact.... I think he should have gotten MORE 'perks' for expressing that UNDERSTANDING of his own Mind....
Billie has beaten up his sister
Father: Billie if you say sorry to me I forgive you and I will buy you an I Phone. If you don't say anything you are no longer a member of this family
Billie : Sorry Father
Next day
Father : My son here is your I Phone
Billie : Thanks
Sister 🤤
The sister was sold into slavery that very afternoon.
@@rageofheaven She deserved it.
Shannon's 'one for one' argument/explanation is genius. wow.
Bravo shannon, absolutely brilliant 👏
6.07: That’s a good question? I’ll give that a lot of thought and I will call back after I have had more time to think about it. Meaning ‘I need some time to make up something so I can give an answer that still agrees with my beliefs’.
What irks me about God's Justice, is that if a pedophile serial killer is finally caught, and sentenced to death for his two to three decade spanning rape/murder spree, and he is Christian, he is going to Heaven. However, his victims won't be. They may be innocent, but if they aren't baptized, or pass the correct criteria, they are going to Hell.
Applause for everyone involved in this.
It seems Jonathan's fear of hell has kept him entrenched in Religion.
15:51 Amazing.
Was there ever an show (whichever of the different ones) that had Tracy (Tracie?) and Shannon on together?
For me, a literal heaven would be hellish to endure.
I agree. I mean, what is one supposed to do in heaven? Just lay around and marvel in God's presence? How boring is that!
I also don't understand why, if there is a hell, that Satan would choose to punish someone who is sent there. Obviously being sent there means you went against God's rules, which pretty much means you're on Satan's side. So why would Satan punish you? Seems to me he'd be congratulating, and rewarding you!
@@jszlauko LOL! Good one.
The overarching point which I was hoping they’d get to is when we put people in jail we’re not torturing them for the remainder of their life sentence. 0 torture in jail whilst eternal punishment is viewed as torture forever.
Helleluya
I've only heard Shannon a few times but she might be a great model for the prototypical atheist going forward. Both crushingly logical as well as humanistic. Of course others have had a nice combo before, but I don't think many have put it quite together like she has.
Shannon! Wow. Very interesting person
He is trying to wiggle his way out of it in the end, because he knows how stupid he sounds
He thought he would have it all worked out, and underestimated Vi & Shannon.
Curious how a person can be punished for all eternity by a being that exists outside of time.
John: "I feel like I'm arguing with two ex-girlfirends"
Shannon Q: "Except that only one of us is a girl"
John: "What's that? No, I'm saying I feel like i'm arguing with two ex-girlfriends"
Shannon and Vi: [decide not to belabor the missed point]
@@seasonedbeefs they are both girls, but only one was born biologically so. Nothing wrong with that at all. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to diminish either woman's identity.
i am confused.
An eternal punishment for someone who God refuses to give enough evidence for is justified? If God refuses to give enough evidence that it does exist, how is that the humans fault?
A life sentence isn't eternal. In some places it's 25 years.
The point is to remove a dangerous person from society so they don't harm others. If we had godlike powers, we'd come up with a better solution.
Exactly, here in the U.K. We have mental health prisons for unreformed prisoners like James Brady or Myra hindley. Even then they are treated with fairness and compassion, not tortured everyday
Back when I was still a theist and still fairly young, I began to view Hell in the way Peirs Anthony portrayed it in the "Incarnations of Immortality" series.
It wasn't meant to be a place of eternal torment or punishment. The intent was that anyone who went there was only there as long as "evil" still persisted within their soul. A serial killer would be in hell a lot longer than some random person who was sometimes an asshole (a regular person). Once all the evil had been purged, they were allowed to ascend up to "Heaven". The only reason they didn't was because of story reasons having to do with Satan, the incarnation of "Evil" manipulating things from the background.
Then I stopped believing it was real at all, and I was much happier.
"There's no hell. There's only France."
- Frank Zappa
😊😊😊
I asked my husband if he is fine with the thought that I am going to hell, according to his religion, and he replied that it is between me and God. Basically he seems fine with it, not his problem.
Edit - for clarification, I was a fundamentalist Christian before I became an atheist.
Right at 0:48 does he say Hebrew Christian really fast?
If God's want was for us to have free will to disobey him if we wanted to, why then is the main goal of the religion to have it stripped away from us? Either you remove your sense of self worth to follow His word entirely so that you can continue to do nothing but serve him in the afterlife, or you don't and are punished for all eternity.
I guess free will comes down to this...you are free to do whatever you want, as long as you do what god wants you to do!
An ultimately evil omnipotent being doesn't exist or one does and we're all screwed because ultimately we can't defend ourselves against it. We'll see, that's all.
I find it really strange there isn't a good god and an evil god, if god is all good and also omnipotent and perfect it would make sense that anything he creates would be unable to be anything but all good.
"Ahh but he gives you the choice to be evil"
Why in bob's name would he do that if he's all good?! "I'm going to create some beings in my image but I'm going to give them the ability to torture and murder each other coz it just wouldn't be fair otherwise!"
He's also perfect and omnipotent so it wasn't an accident...So really you need an 'evil twin' in the story and then you run into the problem of them both being omnipotent but that's easier to hand wave away than the very evident fact of 'evil' y'know...existing.
The whole thing falls apart on such a basic level it just baffles me how it's lasted this long...I guess that's why I watch this channel, it's like that car crash that has nothing to do with you but you can't help but look.
If Nature demonstrates polar opposites why shouldn't a theoretical SuperNature demonstrate the same?
Instead of the existence of only one omnipotent being that is ultimately good or ultimately evil, why not the respective existences of two omnipotent beings in which one of them is ultimately good and the other of them is ultimately evil?
And inasmuch as both of them would be omnipotent beings, neither of them would be able to have the other at a disadvantage. But neither would either have an advantage against the other except to the extent that if these omnipotent beings were also creative beings, neither of them could be prevented by the other from creating in his own mind as he would see fit.
The implications of this would be disturbing if not intolerable.
Why does he keep calling? He gets his ass kicked everytime.
Masochist?
@@karlrschneider maybe he really wants to know if he's right.
I don't mind people calling again with sincere new questions.. It allows them to learn.
I want that TARDIS mug!
His comparison to life punishment to eternal is also flawed. They aren't the same thing.
There is something that the Christian idea of hell cannot avoid. A good person who never does anything bad, who pays their taxes, kind to others, volunteers for charities, loves their wives and children, but who does not accept Jesus - that person is condemned to eternal punishment. How is that ever moral? It is compounded by the fact that a monster who murders large numbers of people and rapes children, only has to genuinely accept Jesus in their dying minutes, and they go to heaven, and therefore escape punishment for their crimes. There is nothing about justice or punishment in either of these situations - it is only ever about petty retribution for not submitting. As a philosophical construct it grows out of the attitudes of people in the Roman period (hell was not a Jewish idea, it was invented by Christians). Anger, bigotry, and binary thinking was common at that time, but philosophy has been on a long journey since then, and we expect more of ourselves and our communities. Humanism is far more moral than those old religious ideas.
I've often seen the human equivalent to God sending people to burn for eternity in hell as a parent sending a child into a burning shed for refusing to eat their vegetables. The major difference being that the child would eventually die and be put out of their misery. The eternal part of Gods punishment is infinity worse than what this parent does as he asserts infinitely more pain on a person. So in my mind, the parents punishment is more moral than Gods, which sounds crazy, because it is. And yet i doubt their is a person on the planet who would justify the parents actions. So why should anyone justify God's?
Because they're scared.
@@kate-sf6lo I feel like if you're scared of God, or think he is immoral in any way or that his plan sucks, you haven't really accepted him and you will likely go to hell like the others. Fear shouldn't be a excuse to believe it should be a reason to disbelieve, as it all points to God not being the person the Bible portrays him as.
@@michaeltunnicliffe4935 so the only way to not go to hell is to be stupid and brainless enough to actually eccept this shit?
@@kate-sf6lo You know what, yeah i guess so. If to get into heaven, you need to accept God, and i'm right in my suspicions that to think God is wrong is to not accept him, then yes, i guess the only ones going to heaven are the ones who blindly follow and don't question. I don't really care who goes to heaven anyway, i don't believe in it. But i do care about people who try to justify their god being immoral, because that kind of thinking could be dangerous if they allow this level of morality be recreated on earth.
Vi I think you nailed the argument when you said that hell was "you're just stuck there", it's just torture. It's the equivalent of god getting off on pulling the wings off flies. Torture for the sake of torture.
"That's a good question, I'll have to think about this.."
After he finally finds a fallacious bad faith argument for this question, he shall soon return..
How can a finite cause produce an infinite effect?
Your question is flawed.
@@NeverTalkToCops1 Enlighten me.
@MindCreatedAll That is where we differ. I see sin as a finite act committed by finite human beings, which an infinitely loving God would view kind of the same way loving parents view the bumbling mistakes of their infant children, as they grow, and learn. And we are growing and learning, appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. Somebody once said, 'I used to worry that God lets us get at the matchbox as often as he does, until I realized that the framework of his Universe is fireproof'.
@MindCreatedAll Wow, you sound really angry and threatening. If hell really does exist, it sounds to me like you're already there. Try and calm down, you'll live longer. You can disagree with somebody without resorting to that. And guess what? There are literally hundreds of different religions worldwide; guess what one of the most common things among them is? They each claim their version of God is the only true one, and anyone who doesn't see things that precise way is wrong, and 'going to hell'.
They then use their scriptures to 'prove' their assertions; my version of truth is right because it claims it's right. Circular logic. So spare me the bible verses, and your biblical understanding of cosmology. It's simply another belief system for people to either gravitate to, or not, your fanaticism notwithstanding.
@MindCreatedAll It's true science doesn't know what came before the Big Bang. We may never know. But that doesn't then imply that an all powerful god, an entity beyond time and space, must therefore have brought all of this into existence. Evidence appears to be pointing towards the possibility that the birth and death of the Universe may itself be an eternal process. Could an all powerful entity actually be in charge of this process? Or is it self regulating? No one knows; all we have is intelligent speculation. Scientists tend to go with god not being a necessary part of the equation. Religionists tend to to get their answers from their religious texts, and so for them it's an all powerful entity. So then Where did such an entity come from? Well, it's always been there, they say. To me that's no kind of answer at all. Simply saying something is beyond time and space and has always existed doesn't prove anything, it's simply a modern day version of saying something beyond human comprehension must somehow be operative, but we understand the entire mechanism, because our holy books have assured us so. In my estimation, Its far better to have questions that don't have answers, rather than have answers that cannot be questioned. And that still doesn't address the fact that so many different religions believe that their particular take on god is the only truth and everyone else is wrong, and 'going to hell'. And how do each of them know this? Their particular holy book assures them it's true, and is not to be questioned. What about people of other religions who are absolutely convinced that they are right, and Christians are wrong? They say YOU are the one going to hell, you're convinced it's them on their way there. Wars have been fought over this, and entire civilizations destroyed; think of the Crusades. But really, all of this goes nowhere. Every person perceives reality differently, and that's one of the things that makes life interesting. I do appreciate your responses.
Comparing hell to life in prison is unbelievably ridiculous.
Damned if you do go to hell; damned if you don't go to hell.
I'm not sure I know what's worse. Burning forever for any little thing considered "sin", or being in heaven knowing that 99.9% of the people who ever lived, including loved ones, is being tortured forever by the a-hole that I have to worship.
I think that it's terrifying that someone who allegedly studies religion constantly and watched and analyses the Atheist Experience can still see morality, compassion and justice in eternal hell.
The poisonous triumph of religion for you...[sigh]
I guess the reason why god rescinds forgiveness after physical death is that going to hell is a form of revelation, which would mean the immoral, hateful and pointless test of faith had been failed. I can’t believe there are still human beings who believe this to be true but I suppose we are still very primitive despite all our apparent progress
An example of someone that would need to be separated from society for the rest of their life. Jeffery Dalmer isn't going to be convinced to stop eating people.
Shannon is very BEAUTIFUL.
johnathan: "damn, wasn't ready for that one"
at least he realised he was out of his depth.
he missed that we have no choice in what we do (if only we could cure criminals :)) whereas god can snap his fingers and the prison system would be unecessary.
As an athiest, I have thought about this a bit.... all we perceive while we are alive is our "eternity".... but there are people who deserve to be locked away (punished) for their crimes, for their entire "eternity" (so essentially infinitely punished since this is the only life we have)
but I feel maybe this "infinite/eternal punishment" is justified since it's more for protection of others vs punishment for them.... .... iono...
His first question is "is that fair?" (Referring to eternal torture for finite crimes). Dude, if you need to ask that question, you need to continue to think about that concept. It's one of the most evil concepts ever. And also what a petty, egomaniacal narcissistic god that would need to create a system where we live such a short blip on the radar and anything we do in this tiny test of time results in eternal suffering. Forever. This god will never let up and never stop punishing you. It's insane to think that would be fair. Wtf??
A truly Just God would grant the wish of a truly good person. A truly good person would never want anyone to suffer in Hell eternally. That only leaves one question: Is there a truly good person in the entirety of human history?
Even if you could justify that a murderer or a paedophile should be tortured in hell for eternity the problem, as usual, is what the Bible and religious leaders actually say. The Bible doesn’t say you will only go to hell if you’re a murderer and a paedophile. It says explicitly what you will go to hell for and most of the things don’t even require punishment in a sane world let alone eternal punishment. Plus plenty of things in The Bible that are demonstrably evil are allowed. Also most importantly. As far as some Christian faiths are concerned as long as you accept Jesus as your saviour even on your deathbed you will go to heaven. Even buy the rules of the Catholic Church if Hitler or Stalin accepted Jesus as their personal saviour before they died then they get into heaven. You can make up all the post facto rules and context you want but by the letter of the Christian law and the doctrine by religious leaders this is the case.
An all powerful God could punish people in creative ways to keep them from hurting people. He could cause a person to get violently ill if they think about hurting others. Or removing offending body parts, without blood or surgery. An all powerful God could easily make life better by making the crime of SA impossible for men. God either chooses not to help us, can’t help us, or He doesn’t exist.
Ooooo...13:07.... ShannanQ going into a Rant
These religious callers don’t actually understand the meaning of unconditional love, but then neither did the so-called prophets who fancied they were channeling god. These callers are following the egos of men who lived thousands of years ago. Only when they grow to have a genuine empathy for humanity will the spell be broken.
Jonathan is the epitome of indoctrination.
what a cop out - Jonathan uses the 'let me think about that' card whenever he wants... take a stand.
For Jonathons sake.........some would say that eternal punishment would be to make people live forever.
If society doesn’t deal with the person who committed the crime and just waited for a “god” to punish them what would happen, nothing.
a good cliff hanger…
Hell and heaven are metaphors...even pagan religious myths believed in concepts of heaven and hell...
What I don't understand when we die our body is no more what facilitys would the spirit have I have hearing loss and have a brain in tact so when I die am I supposed to have all my facilities to go to heaven or hell yet I don't have a 100 percent while I am alive it doesn't make sence
Shannon's TARDIS mug holds 345,000 gallons of coffee.
Perhaps those we punish are created by the systems which religions endorse and promote,. EG: Kings, Lords, Masters, Nations, Warfare, Wealth, Ownership, Debt, etc....
At some point, either after a second or a few days, the pain you receive in hell meets or exceeds the pain you gave while alive. Immediately after that hell is immoral and highly unjust. Glad it doesn't exist.
I think a lot of problems with our Justice system could be solved by simply de- criminalizing non violent 'crimes'.
Torture is usually used to acquire information, the torturee can end the torture by giving the information. But in Hell you are alleged to be tortured for eternity. Thus nothing you say or do can change your fate. I'm really glad I don't believe any of that evil nonsense.
if both heaven and hell are forever and there is nothing in the middle or there is no transfer from hell to heaven then how does one measure the level of crimes one should have committed to go to either of these fictional places? where exactly is that non-fuzzy line?
I Jesus died to forgive our sins, why is anyone going to hell? Forgiven not effective after death?