Raymond Reddington's Identity - An Analysis of NBC's The Blacklist
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- čas přidán 24. 05. 2024
- NBC's The Blacklist has come to an end after 10 seasons. It's about time we had a definitive answer to the central question driving the story: Who is Raymond Reddington? In this video, I'll answer the question with evidence from the series, and I'll discuss whether or not that answer is the product of good storytelling.
This is my first video, so I hope you enjoy!
0:00 Introduction & Background
3:09 The Theory of Redderina
3:49 Evidence in Favor (Part 1)
4:55 The Story of Redderina
8:07 Evidence in Favor (Part 2)
14:00 Evidence Against
26:35 Thank you for Watching - Zábava
"this was my first video" WHAT?! it was awesome, keep it up
Except for the fact that he makes assumptions all throughout the video that supports his conclusion while ignoring possible answers that would actually make the show make sense. And, that he applies medical knowledge that is factually incorrect all through out the video.
I have watched all of the Blacklist seasons and I never for once thought or believed Reddington was Katarina.
That's perfectly fine. It's only a question because the show made it one, and then they made the answer moot by killing off Liz, who was the only character in the show who might care to find out... the whole situation was very weird. lol.
The writers were just trying to throw audiences off and they did. He’s an imposter.
I agree with Daniel that I never once thought that Raymond was Katarina!
@@MC-eu1hx Red literally says under truth serum that Liz is his daughter. It is confirmed through DNA, many people and Red that real Redington was Liz's father and dead. If you never once thought that Raymond was Katarina you weren't paying attention.
@@sabineblankschein3745
There is no uncle mentioned in the show ever. You can't just make up characters and then insert them into the story. Also in season 4 Red admitted under truth serum that Liz was his daughter.
There were so many clues during the show that Reddington is Katarina. Here are a few:
Kate said she put Liz in Red's arms 30 years ago. We see in flashback that was Katarina.
Kate apologizes to "Katarina" when she digs up the bones, which she is doing to hurt Red (and the bones are not otherwise related to Katarina).
Kate says Little Nikko helped her after Annie was shot, and Red responds that Kate knows that he was "away" (not that he had not met Kate). At that time in Kate's flashbacks, Katarina tells Kate she must go "away." Kate had not yet met ORR or the impostor.
When Red is introduced to Kate by Sam, Red tells Kate that he is not as unfamiliar as he seems and wants Kate to be the trusted voice she was to Katarina.
Kate justifies helping Liz fake her death by telling Red that she was keeping her promise to him and protecting his "interests", implying that she did not have an equal relationship to Liz even though she raised Liz as her nanny.
Red tells Kirk that he is not Liz's father but that Liz is his daughter. The episode's writer live tweets "bam. this is true" (and then takes down the tweet). How can Liz be Red's daughter if he is not her father? Only if Red is Liz's mother.
Kirk is determined to kill Red, even if it means not getting the cure for Kirk's own disease. Then Red whispers something to Kirk and Kirk does not kill Red and stares at him in shock. Logically, Red told Kirk that Red is Katarina and it was clear from the episode that Kirk still loves Katarina.
Red knows things that only Katarina would know. Red knows that when Kirk jumped over the hedge on their first date, he found Katarina dancing.
Red tells Liz how Katarina felt when she found out she was pregnant with Liz and throughout the pregnancy. Red often speaks to Liz for Katarina (in terms of how she would feel or what she would say).
The bones are matched to ORR and Garvey tells Jennifer that she has been hiding her whole life from her father based on a mistake. The bones must have been matched to Jennifer's DNA since ORR's DNA is not on file (Cooper used a private lab). Speaking with Dembe, Red privately refers to Jennifer as Liz's sister, so it is likely that ORR is the bag of bones and Jennifer and Liz are both his daughters. This has been confirmed multiple times in the show and by the showrunners. Red obviously cares deeply for Liz but not in the same way for Jennifer. This is evidence that Red/Katarina is Liz's mom and Carla/Naomi is Jennifer's mom, but ORR is the dad of both Liz and Jennifer.
ORR was an American military naval officer. Red appears to be Russian from the books on his shelf, his choice for his last meal, and his close childhood friendship with KGB agent Ilya Koslov. The theory that Red is ORR does not hold and the showrunners have told us it is not true.
When Red thinks Liz has died, Dom asks if Red is coming to him for sympathy, not to give Dom sympathy. That only makes sense if Red is the parent and Dom is the grandparent. Dom compares his loss of his daughter with Red's loss of Liz. Dom complied with Red's wishes to stay away from Liz for her protection. Dom defers to Red as the closer relationship to Liz, even though Dom is Liz's grandfather. Dom blames ONE person for making choices that resulted in Dom not being in Liz's life as she grew up. Initially, Dom directly blames Red for this. After Liz betrays Red and Dom is explaining why he forgave his daughter, Dom expressly blames his daughter for this. The ONE person that made choices that forced Dom into isolation is Red/Dom's daughter.
Dom initially accuses Red of killing his daughter, but this cannot mean literally because they clearly care for each other. Red tells Liz before his execution that his father was conservative, did not accept him or his choices. Yet Red keeps his most important survival box with Dom and runs to Dom when he is distraught upon believing Liz died, to burn the bones, and upon finding out Liz betrayed him. All of this is consistent with a father who cannot accept that his daughter is transgender and became a man. Dom treats Red as someone he loves but resents, not as someone who killed his daughter. The metaphoric killing was Katarina becoming Red. Nothing else would explain this difficult relationship.
After Dom is shot by Paris Katarina, he does not reach out to his granddaughter, he reaches out to Red (to apologize for not understanding him). As we die, we reach out to the person closest to us, which in the case of Dom is Red.
We see Dom, Katarina's father, sentimentally attached to his Wagoneer. Red sentimentally describes how his dad drove a Wagoneer. Both Katarina's father and Red's father are shown to/described as liking peanuts, being authoritarian, and excommunicating their child (although Dom forgave Katarina - because of love, and clearly seems to have forgiven Red).
In Cape May, Red sees the prospector has a locket and recognizes it as the locket that Katarina put down on the beach in Cape May. Red says it has great sentimental value, and it turns out to be engraved to Katarina from papa. This is what sends Red running to see Dom (although Red keeps the locket so he must feel ownership of it).
Ilya is Katarina's childhood best friend and Red's childhood best friend. Paris Katarina knew Ilya, but he seems to have been manipulating Paris Katarina at the request of Dom who believed that he was protecting Liz. Paris Katarina resents being used to protect Liz, even if she understands it, and still plans to kill Dom as vengeance for this. The Townsend Directive seems to be aimed at Dom's daughter and it appears they only want Paris Katarina to find the master spy Katarina (Dom's daughter). Paris Katarina is going to all the people closest to Red/Katarina (Ilya, Dom, the person she thinks is ORR) to find Dom's daughter so that Paris Katarina is free of danger from the Townsend Directive.
Katarina loves and trusts Sam to raise her daughter. Red loves Sam and financed and directed Sam in raising Liz.
Minister D tape shows Fitch was Katarina's mentor and Fitch wanted ORR dead. Fitch uses his dying breath to tell Red how to find Caul to protect himself and decode the blackmail files in the Fulcrum.
Ivan and Ilya are both childhood/old friends of Red and of Katarina.
Townsend wants to kill Liz in front of Red so Red can experience what Townsend experienced when his wife and child were killed in front of him.
When Dom is delusional, he tells the vision of his daughter that she is N-13 and Reddington is N-13, but we know N-13 is one person. We find out from flashback of Katarina and Ivan that Katarina (Dom’s daughter) is N-13. Red admits to Liz that Red is N-13.
In the final conversation between Agnes and Red, she says “Pinky, you are being such a mom” Red replies “Yeah, I guess I just can’t help it.”
Unfortunately that still left it pretty opened ended in the sense of not coming right out and saying he's Katarina which would have been the only way to put the issue to rest imo. Red could have easily meant it in the sense of I can't being a parent which I have seen people try to explain it away but it's obvious he's Katarina.
It is possible that Reddington had specific memories hidden in his mind and others inputted to fully create a different person and the information he needed to fully become the Reddington we get to know. This would explain how he can tell vivid stories but somehow they do not match up (because he has inputted memories).
That's what I'm thinking. He played around with Masha's memories, I think he could've had some implanted into his mind. And the doctor could've did a complete sex change on Katerina so all those women thought he was a man.
When Dembe says "Elizabeth will never be ready to learn what you did to Katarina" that isn't a confirmation that it cannot be her, because Raymond in a sense did Kill katerina. He killed her when he decided to become who he is today. Dembe would obviously know this, considering he got a major in english, he's just using a linguistic tool when talking to raymond.
This sentence from Dembe actually makes it feel like Reddarina isn't correct. Why would Elizabeth never be ready to learn that her mother went so far to protect her? Unless Dembe had already seen the full show and is aware of how unstable Elizabeth is :D
@@dzramen no, but learning Reddington was her mother, but became her father might get her upset.
This katarina theory is the biggest pile of bs in this show lol first off its literally impossible to undergo a transformation like that especially like 3 decades ago, 2nd of all red is a literal womanizer and been with tons of women meaning he has male genitals u dont just go gay out of nowhere, also why would he care so much for jennifer his 2nd daughter who is not related to katarina, if red was katarina he wouldnt give a shit about her get real alrdy with this ridiculous theory
I think Dembe was referring to the woman who became Katarina and been chased around, who she thought was her mother later killed by Red…
I think for me there are two things that makes this theory more plausible. 1. When Alexander Kirk wanted to kill Raymond, he said to Raymond, there's nothing in the world you can say that will change my mind as he stuck a needle on Raymond's neck. Raymond whispered something on Kirk's ear and he spared his life. That was a defying moment for me. 2. When Raymond had devised a plan to have Liz kill him, he wrote a letter which he gave to Dembe to give it to Liz only after he was gone. It was later revealed in S9 that Dembe had given Liz that letter which explains why she couldn't kill Red. I think Raymond is Katarina 😊
All by 1/2 way through season 4
Red told Liz her father was dead
A paternity test was done from an old DNA source confirming Redington was Liz's father
Red admits Liz is his daughter.
All the information needed to determine Red's identity was there 1/2 through season 4...people just chose not to believe it.
Three staff members have confirmed that Red was Katarina now.
Honestly, the show is so extreme, I'm not surprised they didn't show some Wolverine Weapon X scenario where Reddington had all his bones slowly replaced.
Really, really nice job. This was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for taking us through everything.
When the story is told in flashbacks for Liz (at the Latvia “fish company”), Katarina tells her she created or constructed someone to be Reddington. We see Dr. Koehler performing an operation, followed by the new “Reddington” putting on a coat. The music played in the background is , “It’s a Man’s World”, by James Brown. I thought this was a very clever way of signaling the new Reddington is actually Katarina, having “become” a man.
“It’s a man’s, man’s, man’s world, but it wouldn’t be nothing without a woman, or a girl.”
Great work! i was discussing this with my family, it is sad that at the end the show end up without a coeherence along the 10 seasons. thou it was a really fun to saw it. For a first video this is amazing! Keep it up!
Their is one thing that you forgot,
S1E12 - The Alchemist could change someone's DNA and that is how Katarina could become Raymond Reddington.
It could also explain the unanswered illness that was killing RR. It would seam having your DNA altered could possibly kill you in the long term. Only makes sense, and the treatments that RR was going for to help weren't working, well thats my guess atleast.
On a different point. The writers and film editors definitely made a statement with Elizabeth's death scene, it's Elizabeth's life as seen through Elizabeth's eyes and then finished off by Elizabeth's life ending as seen through Katarina's eyes. Finally, Raymond symbolically transforms into Katalina by taking his hat off and putting it down and having to be helped to a car by Dembe to leave before the FBI gets there.
What do you think?
I think Red is Katarina
1. Do you remember in season 2, Reddington told Liz that he had her memory wiped to protect her from the trauma of killing her father and in season 8 episode 21 we learn that it was Katarina who had Liz memory wiped not Reddington.
2. At the end of season 1 episode 7, we see Reddington standing in front of a window and remembering standing there before and watching Liz play in the grass, that scene can be seen in season 8 episode 21 with Katarina standing at that window and watching Liz play in the grass with Jennifer in her arms.
3. The way Red and Kat folds their coats, check the first scene of s1ep1 and Cape May. The way they both kiss Liz, you can see when Liz was dieing, she knew they are the same person.
4. In season 4, when Red was talking to Liz about the Cabal, KGB and the CIA, he said they were after him. From season 6 going, then we got to know that they were after Katarina not Reddington.
5. Everytime he talks about Katarina, he says he knew her better than anyone. And knows even where Katarina put her things in Dom's home.
Why do you think everybody who got to know the truth wanted to hurt Liz, if Red wasn't her parent. We now know that the real Reddington (Liz's father) is dead and Katarina is alive, so what makes you think it's not Reddington.
These are my own analysis that convinces me that Katarina is Reddington and when you say Dom hates Red but loves Katarina, that's somehow true but don't forget he hates Red because all the time he says what you did to her, what you did to Katarina. My explanation is that he loved Katarina before working with the Cabal but hates her for working with the Cabal, for bringing all these things on herself and her family, so when he sees Red he remembers Katarina she betrayed him and worked with the Cabal and changed her gender. So he no longer recognises her daughter but sees a male criminal who brought destruction to his family.
If you think Red is the real Raymond Reddington still then I don't know what to say to you. The question is why will he kill people who discovered his identity if his identity is Reddington which everybody knows. Why?
This means he is not the real Raymond Reddington.
And those people also saying maybe it's a twin brother or a cousin of the real Reddington, that's also crazy. How come we've watched a show up to season 9 with almost 200 episodes and no one has ever mentioned you. How?
Although I don't like the idea of transgending and don't like transgenders but If Red doesn't turn out to be Katarina, I will be very disappointed. After all these sacrifices and help, who would do all these if not a parent.
And those saying, they want red to be the real Reddington (Liz's father), do you know why they revealed that Katarina got burned in the fire season 8 episode 21, it was to debunk the fact that Red is not the real Reddington because from the start of the series, people were saying he is the real Reddington because of the burns on his back. They made it possible so that people can't use that to debunk the fact that Red is Katarina.
efectibamente, ademas de
6 la carta que que pensaba entregarle a Lizz,
7 el, "lo siento Katarina", que dijo Kapplan al desenterrar la malea,
8 que en el final de la temporada 10 cuando se despide de Agnes diga que actua como una madre, y Red responda que "nunca lo podra ebitar",
9 que a la operacion entraran Iliak y Katarina y Red sea un gran amigo de Iliak en la actualidad
10 y todo el episodio 21 de la 8aba temporada que cuenta por cuatro y (en el que yo pensaba que ya no quedarian dudas al respecto, en el que cuando acabe de verlo dije: bueno, ya esta confirmado entonces ¿no?)
@@ibaisanchez3230 I don't understand
More arguments 😂
I forgot which season and episode it was, but you remember when Constantin Rostov tried to kill Reddington and said, nothing could stop him from doing so? Red said, he should tell him from Katharina and whatever Constantin said, Red ended the sentences as if he was there with him - but Constantin was there with Katharina. As soon Constantin starts to poison Red, he whispers to him and at the end, Constantin didn't kill Red. This only could have happened, if Red told him the truth of being Katharina.
@@pakabe8774 I find it funny that people focus on what Red whispered...when Red literally admitted under truth serum that Liz was his daughter. It has been established repeatedly that Liz's father was dead...Red admitting that Liz was his daughter was revealing that Red was Katarina. and most focus on a the far more subjective part of the scene.
I think the network was too scared to actually let the audience know that the greatest gentleman criminal in history used to be a woman so they teased it over and over and never revealed it fully. But despite everything else they threw at the audience, its the ONLY logical answer. Red IS Katarina. She said it herself she "created someone who can be there" for Liz. Why would she word it that way and in the flashbacks its obviously a woman dressed in a suit and a womans arm on the operating table. The hints are all there. At first i wasnt on board with the twist, now i love it and can see why Red was so flamboyant and nurturing all the time. That will always be my only logical conclusion.
Your analytical skills are quite remarkable. I watched all seasons at least 3 times. You've really opened my eyes to some things I didn't even consider when watching it. Kudos!
He is just making assumptions to support what he has already determined without considering other possibilities (nor that his information is incorrect) that would make the story be more consistent.
@@bverjimy dude is proving one theory in one video. He is not saying there **arent** other possibilities.
@@passive-aggressive
proving requires the absence of contradictory possibilities. His claim also goes against specifically what the show creators, Spader, and members of the writing staff have said to be true. So, his interpretation has a much higher bar to be considered proof. He must show how what the people who made the show said was true couldn't be true and he does this only by ignoring other possibilities that would actually support what the staff claim, while claiming his interpretation specifically has contradicted the staffs claims. His analysis has not contradicted what the staff have said what he did was exactly what I claimed "He is just making assumptions to support what he has already determined without considering other possibilities (nor that his information is incorrect) that would make the story be more consistent."
He asserts that he has proven the staff was being untruthful and these assumptions ignoring other possibilities is not congruent with your assertion that "my dude" is presenting one theory and there aren't others. He says he is contradicting what the staff says is true.
I said through the whole series that he was the real Red because at some point the blood would have showed female. It would have been a great concept either way but I still say he's the real Red ♥️
@@sallyhead6536
That isn't how blood tests and DNA tests work. When you go to the doctor and have a blood test they just test what the doctor asked for , with your permission, they don't come back confirming to the doctor your sex. DNA and medical tests only test what is specifically tested for. This is because of medical standards, legal privacy issues, cost, time and specialization of labs. The idea that when a DNA/blood test is done it comes back with a list of characteristics is false....That is not how these tests are done.
Red is 100% not the real Redington
The real Red knew where the Fulcrum was, imposter Red didn't.
Redington would not need to get plastic surgery to be look like Red.
The bones in the bag where proven to be the real Redington through DNA.
Red was completely devoted to Liz and Jennifer was an after thought
DNA proved that the real Redington was Liz's father and imposter Red straight up says to her he is not Liz's father.
Red straight up tells Liz her father is dead multiple times.
Red destroyed his empire, friendships, and his relationship with Liz to keep anyone from identifying the bones.
There is no reason for Red to fight so hard to hide his identity if he is who he says he is.
The show went out of it's way to show that Red died in Katarina's lap to show he was actually dead.
Red said he had Liz's memory erased to protect her from the memory of killing her father, if he was alive no reason to do that or to lie that he was dead.
One of the first things Red says to Liz is that everything about him is a lie.
Imposter Red is shown many times that he grew up in Russia, the real Red did not he grew up in Michigan.
There are several scenes where he talks about being an imposter with Dembe, Dom and Liz.
Many people confirmed that the real Redington was Liz's father and he tells her straight out he is not her father
The show creator confirmed in interviews after the season 5 final that Red was an imposter and the bones were the real Redington.
Nothing is more obvious than that "Red" is Katarina. She felt that the only way she could build her empire and protect Lizzy was to have a sex change.
17:47 As soon as I saw Cape May watching the show, I concluded he was Katarina. I didn’t know about any theories online. There’s no point after where I didn’t think it wasn’t the case.
They deliberately left it slightly ambiguous at the end of the show because for some it’s rare or even impossible to accept their own understanding or conclusion was wrong. That’s in essence why you dislike the “theory”. That and they had to mix it up to drag out the series.
1st season they’d have no reason to come up with a big back story as the show could easily have been cancelled.
Spader said definitely that he was told red’s real id on the first day of shooting and it didnt change throughout the entire show.
You nailed it. Best explanation I’ve ever seen.
I think exactly the same.
"This is a man's world, but it wouldn't be nothing, nothing, without a woman or a girl..."
I’m rewatching the show and in season 2 in the 21st episode, Red is talking with a mother of an infant and he says “you must be exhausted” and her response is “you have no idea”
To w hitch he says “you’d be surprised” I find little hints that are easy to miss such as that all throughout the show to be interesting to say the least.
I appreciate your savvy and the intelligent exposure of the unraveling threads. As a longtime watcher who occasionally missed some episodes I would have been blessed to listen to the whole explanation in the final episode.
In my opinion it makes sense if you only consider it from the bone arc forward. There’s too many holes in the theory before that. This leads me to think at some point the writers changed their minds and shifted where they wanted it to go
The Reddinggton Identity is one of those mysteries in the show that make NO SENSE! First of all, they HAVE Kate there along with Red. All they need to do is a Paternity test. It doesn't matter if they have his DNA on file, if Red is related to her, which the show all but confirms, the test will not only show that but it will show EXACTLY how. Second of all, the Red is her mother theory isn't possible. Ignoring the fact that those who have gone through transgender transition surgery need CONSTANT MEDICATION to maintain their transition to the opposite sex and prevent health complications, which all the times Red was keep in a cell for long periods of time WOULD have revealed, the FBI DID do a DNA test on him to compare his DNA to one of the only samples they had of Reddington. Now, it is easy to say the Red we know replaced his DNA on file so it wouldn't match our some other malarky to explain why it didn't match the original Red but the one thing that CAN'T be argued is that they were using the current Red's DNA for the test and that was what they were analyzing. Sex is one of the easiest things to tell in a DNA test and no surgery in the world is going to sway that result. If the Red we know had come up as female during the DNA test it would have raised ALL the red flags and it WOULD have been mentioned. So no, it is not physically possible for Red to be Kate's mom, even in the Blacklist universe.
They did a paternity test but the sample was from the real Redington and them not doing one wouldn't have been proof he wasn't Katarina.
He started getting sick while he was locked up because he couldn't get his medications and he did eventually die from some weird sickness.
It was never stated that the FBI gave him a DNA test. They did test on the real Redington's DNA.
There was no need for Red to switch his DNA on file...that was never an issue.
Sex may be easy to determine, but that isn't how DNA tests work. They only test what is asked for, DNA tests don't come back with a list of characteristics. That is against privacy laws and against medical standards.
Your arguments don't hold up, they are based on a lot of misinformation.
All the evidence from the show leads to Red having been Katarina and there is no evidence that Red is anyone else. Red having been Katarina has been confirmed by several staff members.
by the end of season 5
The real Redington is proven to be dead.
The real Redington is proven to be Liz's Father
Red admits under truth serum that Liz is his daughters.
If Liz' is Red's daughters, but he is not her father, Red has to be Liz's mother.
There is a ton of other supporting evidence but those three facts (along with the staff consistence confirmation) are definitive proof that Red was Katarina. The only way you can conclude otherwise is to ignore what the show has said/shown and ignore what the staff has said.
You really try to apply real world logic into a show where they can alter dna or all the other stuff we saw? come on….
Everyone needs to read and acknowledge this. Even if the producers don't understand basic biology and intended to produce this theory.
@@abrahamkohl
No this is nonsense. You can't just force someone to do a paternity test. That is why they used an older source of DNA for one.
When he was in the cell he got sick because he didn't have access to his medication. Red literally says this.
They never did a DNA test on imposter Redington. Grant is simply wrong.
He bases these assumptions on incorrect information because he didn't follow well what happened in the show.
thank you for an clearer explanation thoughts for myself on who Reddingtons identity is and the connection to Elizabeth Keen.
I think it was better from beginning that it was Raymond Reddington. This imposter bit never went anywhere, maybe the writers got cold feet or something, doesn’t matter - it went nowhere and considering how important this story thread is, is damaging to the overall story flow. Considering how far they went with it they should’ve gone all the way with things or never done the story thread at all.
They overcomplicated it for their brains and then when fans theorised about Redarina decided to embrace it and later built a season around "Who is Red" narative. Show would be much better if they stayed on one path,keeping mistery of who he is until the last moment, if they abandoned redarina hints totally,and also if they connected cold war spies from around the world with the story. They explained a little bit about his network in the last season but could have been better explained. Also almost 1/3 of episodes have a line "According to Reddington" which is kinda lazy writing. Spader did amazing job but Megan was horrible and casting director shouldn't work on anything ever after this choice.b
It wasn't really that complicated. Red admits under truth serum that Liz is his daughter. You later find out that Red is an imposter and the real Redington is liz's father and dead. If you cut through all the other noise this is the core to Red's identity.
Redarina is physically impossible. Kaplan could have meant "you" in the plural form. English is ambiguous like that. The person that became Red could be another childhood friend of Katarina. An uncle, a cousin. An ex lover who never got over her. Ilyia's brother. So many other possible options. The reason for the letter stopping Liz from killing Red could be that she is alive and Red knows where she is. The show had many instances of lazy writing and rug pulling that made no sense. The mess started when Megan became pregnant and they had to keep Tom on longer to exploit a side quest season. Towards the end, definitely from season 7 onwards, I got the vibe of improvisation. They lost all plot and sense of what they intended to do at the beginning.
It is not physically impossible for Katarina to be Red, it is also a failure to apply a sense of disbelief in a consistent manor for the show.
There are many clues that it isn't a childhood friend. There are many comparisons to imposter Red's family to Katarina's family. As for Katarina having a brother it was confirmed in 8x21 that she did not. The show is over trying to insert characters not alluded to by the show is not a logical way to try and determine Reds identity. That isn't how a mystery works...when people were doing that when the show was on-going they were referring to what could be revealed in the future, now that the show is over it is incumbent to use the information actually provided by the show...not write fan fiction.
Yes, all show have lazy writing but you can point those instants out that isn't a justifiable argument for ignoring information you don't want to be true unless there is something specifically that is arguably "lazy" that is applicable. The show also does several red-herrings but ultimately those are resolved.
At the end of the day all the evidence leads to Red being Katarina, there is no evidence for anyone else being Red, A show writer has confirmed that Red was Katarina, the show creators have said that they and Spader knew who Redington was since the first episode. Redarina is a fact it isn't a theory.
I was so disappointed with the ending, but now, hearing the explanation, I understand it. What I don't understand is hearing, '...was Raymond Elizabeth's MOTHER? " Can't get that one. I loved the series from startt to finish, think Spader was flawless and will miss Blacklist unless I start all over again!
great video essay. Keep those up!
The best explanation for Red's identity was Ilia Coscov being the "red" which producers blew it, I think they've realised ssecrecy of red's true identity was such an intriguing idea that they somehow regretted revealing at the end of season 6, so they twisted and by this blew whole thing
Thats why i have a problem with Rederina. Red is almost depicted as a womanizer and has definitely slept with some of these woman who would have definitely seen some sort of surgical scars and could use that knowledge to figure it out and blackmail him. You can tell in the first few seasons that Rederina wasnt the plan. Simply put i dont think they were planning on going 10 seasons and to draw it out had to go down that road.
You realize the point of plastic surgery is to hide scares?
Raymond Reddington is Katarina Rostova
I came to the show day one and have seen it many times, I never accepted the redderina theory when I first saw it pop up years ago.
Makes no sense to me whatsoever, Red might not have been Reddington, but to me he was never Katarina.
Also Megan Boone and Liz has just infuriated me theorughout, bad actress given a very complex and deep role and a poor character.
That's fine. If Redderina is true, the show gains very little if anything, and if it's not true, nothing is really lost. Enjoy it how you like.
@@Half-FaceCinephile for sure I do and everyone can have their beliefs and theories I obviously have no issues with that I was just giving my two cents.
I was always a believer of him being an imposter and thought that the fact that people supposedly "in the know" like Diane Fowler called him "Red" was a hint from the show writers.
But what do I know.
I first thought Red was Katarina when he whispers to Constantine and he was let go
It was a dead give away when Red admitted that Liz was his daughter under truth serum.
By that time it was established that Liz's father was dead. That had to mean that Red was her mother.
Great video! Thank you for the time and effort it took to make it.
I have seen every episode of the blacklist and I really forgot all about most of those callbacks and a lot of the episodes. I did binge watch a season at a time and I still forgot overall, I found the show intriguing and quite enjoyable I suppose I suspended my disbelief for most of it I did, however truly enjoy your analysis of the series.
Glad you enjoyed it!
There is numerous times when Red basically says he is Katerina 1 of them being when Liz says we're you the one who took the picture of her and her mom he doesn't answer then right after she says we're you there he says I was there followed by I knew her better then anybody else.
Punctuation would be nice
@@JoseRodriguez-lp7rs 🤣😂 If you are going to be pedantic you should adhere your own grievance.
for me, one big hint to the rederina theory is the line fake katarina says before red shoots her: "i can't imagine what this must be like for you, knowing you can't kill me because of how much elizabeth loves her mother". the amount of emphasis on 'mother' and the slight grin fake mom gave heavily implies rederina is true. of course that is season 8 and by that point, the writers had made up their minds on the identity.
“All these people know about reds real identity. What proof do we have of that? Because I said so. Anyway it makes no sense that all of these people know about reds identity.”
Dude only like three or four people know about red’s identity in canon.
There are two choices when evaluating characters beyond what is absolutely shown: assume they are intelligent, or assume they are stupid. I erred on the side of intelligence, because they are usually presented as such in the show. If they were in a position to notice something, I assumed that the *could* notice something (even just a small part of the truth, like Reddington is an imposter). I never said that they *definitely* knew the whole truth, with the exception of the group that absolutely knows: Dominic, Ilya, Stepanov, Dembe, Sam, Naomi, and possibly Kaplan. That alone is a lot of people, as I said. The saying goes "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead" and Reddington seems to live by that, but only when it's convenient to the story.
@@Half-FaceCinephile ". There are two choices when evaluating characters beyond what is absolutely shown: assume they are intelligent, or assume they are stupid. I erred on the side of intelligence, because they are usually presented as such in the show."
🤣🤣🤣
I don't believe the rederina theory
Great analysis done! I believe also that Red is Katarina but I agree that this was not the writers intention from the start. I think that is the reason why we never got a clear definitive answer on this question. If they confirmed that Red is Katarina there would've been a lot of past episodes that would not support this, but they left clues during the second part of the series in order for the viewers to make up their mind on what they believe is correct.
watch it again! it's there, in so many ways, it became more obvious around season 3.
my head cannon is that Katerina's brother became Raymond, and he went to therapy, Katerina helping, causing him to develop dissociative identity disorder during the darkest moments of his life, sort of resurrecting Raymond Reddington. We can't trust flash backs fully.
They specifically say that Katarina never had a brother in 8x21.
@@bverji damn. There goes that one. You know, maybe some minor hacking could change the blood records for his staff, he'd have access to those systems. Maybe that'll close up a loophole, why he's so obsessed with being analog with the information he relies on.
@@notmebeingme461 Such theories are fine when the show is still going on and you are talking about what might be revealed later in the show, but now that the show is over it is unreasonable to base a theory on "what ifs." There is far more than enough evidence provided in the actual show to determine what Red's identity is.
@@bverji The end of a show isn't the end of a fandom, it's a thriller show, it thrives off mystery and until it's confirmed, nothing is for certain.
@@notmebeingme461
But it is the end of the information presented. You don't solve a mystery by inserting fanfiction, you use the information provided by the show. What you are doing by creating scenarios is what people were doing to predict what information would be presented in the future of the show, but there is no future information presented by the show. Use the information in the show to solve the mystery, because there isn't going to be any other information provided.
Inventing an uncle never mentioned by the show and can no longer be presented is no more valid than if I was to say Red was an alien. Inserting things based on the fact that they weren't explicitly refuted by the show is illogical. The fact that they weren't presented in the show is proof it is invalid, not valid.
When I first herd the theory I thought it was insane, but once you consolidate it, it almost seem like its the only explanation left
Incredible video! You put into words criticisms and complaints that I and many other have had before, but much more eloquently. The show was set up to be an all timer in my opinion, but it fumbled in its forethinking and execution. What a shame. Excited to see the other videos you put together.
He says anytime his blood is tested it would show he's female, but despite being true, is not a problem if his medical staff is made to keep the secret
While you can find this out from a blood test that isn't how blood test work. Only test specifically requested would be done so the claim that "anytime his blood is tested it would show he's female" is incorrect because there is no reason anyone would have done the test for that. You go into the doctor and have your blood drawn do they test it for every thing? Do they do multiple upon multiple draws to have enough? Has your doctor ever tested your blood to see if you are male? This is obviously not true and jumping to the conclusion that this would be done shows a bias.
As explained in the film FBI compared Red's medical records with the blood found where he was tortured by Garrick and confirmed match, so if he was genetically female they would definitey know from that found sample.
@@annakarewicz4857 Matching would not show gender. Not how DNA tests work. They use non-defining DNA sequences to confirm ID. The only time a DNA test would show gender is if the test specifically tested for it and that is illegal without a warrant.
Not to mention Raymond never lied to her she asked him are u my dad he told her no she never asked if he was her mother & he told her I have never lied to you which he had not done and about whose bones those were he just won't answer the question he just said that was his secret if she wouldn't respect that no one would that was one thing he said that was his and she wouldn't even give him that talk about selfish!!!Anyone could have told her the man on the moon was her mother she didn't want to believe her own grandpa or Raymond that that woman was an imposter 😅 she didn't even doubt it for one 2nd that she could have been getting played by that female😂She wasn't hearing it for anyone that women really isn't her mom so even when they were telling her the truth the dumb heifer wasn't going to hear anything anyone was telling her poor thing 😂😂😂
15:42 most tests that doctors perform on blood (ABO/Rh and labs) won't show someone's sex. Just a small part but the medical records probably would disclose that info.
Thank you for providing a Non-Bias analysis on the Theory. Great Video. Keep it up
I'm pretty sure Dembe is Liz's father and Reddington is the imposter who killed Katirina and the real Reddington. Thats why Dembe says "Elizabeth will never be ready to learn what you did to Katarina"
LOL That would be a great reveal.
So if the goal is to protect his daughter, why involve her in such a dangerous web? Wouldn't this put her at higher risk?
A very important part of Reddingtons character is the fact that the dark “lures” him. Despite knowing that he puts everyone he cares about in danger, he brings them into his life “surrounded by darkness”
Blacklist is an excellent show except for the discontinuation of the narrative, flashbacks and events regarding Red's true identity
Illya was taller than Katarina, Raymond was taller than Illya.
You mean the actors aren't actually the same people...who would have thought. Did you question how the younger versions of the characters were obviously not the same actors as well?
As someone who also thoughtfully analyzed the show, the evidence for Redarina is strong though you downplay and leave much out. Your “evidence” against is flimsy at best and highly influenced by your emotions and clear dislike of Redarina. All the evidence you say is against can be seen as evidence for but none of the evidence for can also be seen as evidence against. Ironically, Cape May is the quintessential episode that can only explain Redarina and offers proof that Red is re living the experience. There’s no conceivable way he can be a part of any of this if he wasn’t at one point Katarina. Dembe’s line “what you did to Katarina” which you say is against is actually evidence for. Liz WAS never ready to learn that Red gutted his former self effectively killing her mother. Even after 8 seasons and Red literally telling her everything she says “where’s my mom though?”. She’s clearly unable to accept the truth deep down. Red has also always had enormous shame around this - all the way back to season 1. The shame of forever removing Liz’s mother from her life (the scene the train station). You mention we never find out if Kate knew. But you also admit in your evidence for that Kate did know as she said Red put baby Liz in her arms and that was Katarina. You can’t have it both ways. The being a womanizer, the agent at the start of the story, the Michigan stuff, all very flimsy and easily explained that at the beginning of the show Red is at peak acting as Reddington mode. He needs everyone AND the audience to believe he is Reddington and no one else. Or the show would quickly be over in a few episodes. The DNA/blood is the only real evidence that puts a hole in the story. However for a show that has pregnant men and shown as DNA alteration, it’s not even that far fetched.
I don't think he is trying to claim that Reddington isn't Katarina - just that this is only possible due to a change in direction partway through the show. In fact I find it hard to deny at this point. It is hard because to accept that as the truth, you have to explain away a lot of other details. The blood testing is the biggest one in my opinion, and to tell the audience that the FBI, or anyone else who had access to Red's blood at any point didn't discover the truth is the height of poor writing and as this video pointed out there were far too many people who should've known the secret, yet it never came out despite Red having fairly regular betrayal from those around him.
Even if we accept the writers to be complete frauds and make that part of their narrative, there is still the early references to Red's family. In the killing of Dianne Fowler, there is no reason why Katarina would want to find out what happened to Raymond Reddington's family "more than anything in the world". The same applies to Katarina organizing a private performance of swan lake. As this video mentions too, there isn't any reason why she would want to destroy Reddington's family home either, or why stepping foot inside it would bring back "bad memories". The simplest explanation for these is that Reddington is actually Reddington. Something that is later made impossible because of the bones, then because he is Katarina.
I think that the premise of this video is spot on. At the beginning, Reddington was clearly Reddington, or at least someone who was playing the part of him. Then as it progressed they changed who he is meant to be and broke the existing story they already built. You have to ignore large parts of the early story to make him Katarina.
I watched the show and enjoyed it up until around season 7 or 8 and then didn't continue. The character of Reddington being played so well by Spader is the only reason why I stuck around that long. Anyone else in that role and the show wouldn't have made it past 6 seasons in my opinion.
I wonder if Redington was a burn victim that died and his body was used to transplant Caterinas brain or consciousness to his body.
I love Blacklist but I, at the same time, dislike much about the backstory line. I believe you are right that the Rederina theory is what the showrunners ultimately gave us, but I dislike it intensely. There were other, more plausible and inventive ways they could have gone.
While I'm venting I will say that I came to dislike the Elizabeth character intensely...even to the point that I celebrated Megan Boone leaving the show. My antipathy toward her is probably more the fault of the writers than hers, if I am being honest and rational.
Finally, I am glad that the faux Katerina was just that because I despised her. The actress did her job if it was to alienate the viewer. She did not seem anything like the Cape May Katerina.
Finally, James Spader proved beyond all doubt that he is one of the great actors of our era.
What is with people disliking the Elizabeth Keen character but not Raymond Reddington? Is it that you are women haters?
Every character & their roles did wrong during the show. Keen suffered a lot of losses & got angry at Reddington. But I think the writers could have left out a whole series if Keen would have just listened that the woman pretended to be her mother, but was not.
As I said in the video, I think she's emotionally inconsistent. She will be horrible to Reddington one minute, then ask for his help the next. Sometimes the switches are justified, but they happened too frequently throughout the series.
I also think there are several turning points where she alienated the audience in major ways. One for me (I won't speak for others) was when she woke up from her coma and immediately took Agnes away from Reddington, who had been her caretaker that whole time (Agnes knew Reddington better than she knew Liz at the time), in favor of giving her to Scottie Hargrave. Scottie was 1.) a complete stranger to both Agnes and Liz herself; 2.) a character whose entire foundation was literally misplacing a child for 30 years; 3.) had recently been deus ex machina-ed out of jail; and 4.) was responsible for the kidnapping incident at Liz's wedding, which resulted in the premature birth of Agnes and the desperate faked death storyline. Additionally, when confronted about Liz's "death," she callously told Reddington to get over it because sometimes people die. But Liz declared her a better caretaker than someone who had already been caring for Agnes for almost a year. There are lots of moments like that in Liz's story and, when put together, a lot of people come to dislike her.
Late comment here, but what were the other theories you mentioned that the showrunners threw away in early seasons?
I don't know what else was considered by the showrunners, but there were many better options they could have taken.
At the earliest parts of the show, he could have almost literally been anyone. The most likely relationship was father-daughter, even though he said point blank that he wasn't after Anslo Garrick (the idea that he never lies to Liz is stupid, and contradicted many times throughout the series). There are a bunch of other things I can come up with off the top of my head: a war-buddy of her father's or mother's whose life was saved and feels a deep debt is owed; a criminal who worked with her "career criminal" father and thinks that she is the only federal agent who can be trusted; another relative; a godparent; a criminal trying to exploit her because he knows she hid things from the FBI; or pretty much anything. Most of these were made unusable after Liz killed Tom Connolly, because it takes a special connection to drop everything and go on the run with her.
My preferred theory, to which I allude in the video, is that "Raymond Reddington" was a code name used by twin brothers to be a single person for spy missions. One of the brothers would have been married to Naomi and have a daughter, Jennifer, and the other brother would have an affair with Katarina and have a daughter, Masha/Liz. Then I would have had Naomi's husband discover the Cabal, assemble the Fulcrum, kidnap his niece, and die in the fire, leaving our Reddington to go on the run, become a criminal, and try to protect Liz from afar while looking for the Fulcrum. It's bad writing, because most stories that rely on identical twins are bad writing (and this was already being used at the time by the show Quantico). But I think it's slightly better than Redderina. This theory was destroyed when the writers introduced Hans Kohler, though. Why would an identical twin need plastic surgery to look like his identical twin? That's when I settled on Redderina as the right answer, but I still think it's bad.
At first I thought the imposter Raymond Redington is was Katarina true love who is indeed the father of Liz and then Katarina made him become raymond reddington after the real red died.. Because in the show in season 6 the nurse tells Jennifer that Katarina Rostova oversaw the surgery of reddington. Katarina was in many relationships either imposter red is liz real father who is Katarina true love or Katarina used the memory erasing thing to transfer her memories into a man body
yes, this! Katarina went with the "new" Red to get the surgery. She can't go there and be Red at the same time.
@@melocoton7 ROFLMAO, What!!! Whoever it was that got the surgery had to both go there and be Red.
You have incredible analytical skills. Awesome video!
I know that you insist that this is a personal feeling, so I cannot fault you, especially as someone who also agrees that 'Cape May' is indeed the strongest episode not only of The Blacklist but arguably of any network television of that year. I think what makes your argument both understandable but ultimately complicated is a continuity gap that you don't mention when you discuss it--that like many other moments, there is no way Red could have witnessed the events at Cape May, let alone be invested in those events, unless he was Katarina.
But more to the point, I think there is a great deal of grace to afford the scene as a mental occurrence--Red is experiencing guilt in that scene, similar to when Katarina first walked into the water. Where Katarina's concern was that she wanted to take the actions that would keep Masha safe, Red is responding to the immediate failure of that goal, a violent massacre where an attack meant specifically to harm him has taken Liz's life. While not a perfect visual metaphor, it worked for me at least as someone struggling to come to terms with the decisions that led to Liz getting shot and coming out of it reassuring himself that if he hadn't, all of these consequences would have come for an unprepared Liz anyway. That it is Red stumbling through something he does not seem to reconcile as a figment of his mind--that, at the end, he speaks to Katarina as if they are separate people anyway--is kind of the drama of the scene, of someone languishing in his own mind because of what has happened. As stories go (and as Red goes), wiser characters have given into sillier delusions seeking answers or escape both, I'd argue.
Far be it from me to insist that it is a perfectly well-told story (I try to give grace to the fact that the core team of this show cut their teeth writing for JJ Abram's ALIAS... I'm pretty sure in that show blood does things it physically cannot do), but I think the fact that they did commit to Redarina even arguably despite those conflicts, and that such commitment bears out a character fortunately still made more complicated and interesting, one which I think the show still reveals in moments as a complicated relationship to his own body, is a feat on its own. It isn't an ironclad story, very few television of its length is these days, but that they dared at all is still more worthy of acclaim than not.
The problem with the continuity gap is that if he's not Katarina, the scenario can just be his imagination. None of it had to have actually happened at all. Sure, it's memory if he's Katarina, but then the mental disconnect becomes a story issue, since he recognizes neither his past self nor his past actions. If he's just Reddington, he is there imagining how she must have felt, and he creates the scenario from his understanding of the pressure she was under. That's one of the things that makes his anecdote in this episode so powerful. He's imploring the woman, whom he doesn't recognize as Katarina, not to follow in Katarina's footsteps because of the fallout of that decision on his own life. He believes Liz would have been better off if Katarina hadn't killed herself. But that doesn't work if he's Katarina, because none of that negative fallout actually occurred, and she was technically there for Liz, but the same dreaded outcome still befell Liz. Where is the emotional suicide bombing when three (or four) of the five most important people in her life know she's still alive? It turns the bombing anecdote into a metaphor for what transitioning does to the rest of a trans person's family... which would be extremely strange as their intention, given the obvious political leanings of the writers.
Part of me wished Red was the real red and kat was alive somehow. Last episode of season 4 ruined it for me to speculate bs again which led me to spoil myself.
The one issue with the reddirena line is the burns reddington had on the first season. The real reddington survived the fire after being shot. Helped young Liz escape the fire.
The only 2 people confirmed to be burned in the fire were Laz and Katarina. This is not an issue. Red did not help Liz escape the fire...Katarina did. Liz went back into the house and Red stayed in the car dyeing from his gun shot wound. Liz remembers that her mother got burned and Katarina responds "we both were."
She was not burned when she came to visit Kate and young Liz at the hotel certainly not to the extent of Raymond's scars
Thanks Someone Who want some thoughts in that mess. The blood, the finger prints, The evidence of a such AN invasive surgeries..... Etc etc etc
The real answer is the the show writers and creator really never had an answer they never addressed the issue. Just like Lost there was never a conclusion for that part of the plot... Lost had no answers for any part of the entire series. Redington is just left a mystery cause the show makers never really dealt with it.
Theres literally a whole episode of a blacklister that can change people's DNA so that they appear as someone else if you draw their blood
To me, that was a HUGE hint to Redderina
Yes, the Alchemist changes DNA readings, but it's about identifying dead bodies, not live people. Also, I would argue that he's on the blacklist because Reddington doesn't have access to him, since he needed information from him that was only attainable once he was caught/killed.
I love your analysis - great work!!! With that, the "Redderina" theory never crossed my mind due to so many factors in which you've mentioned, as well as many others not mentioned up to this point. Firstly, there's still one issue that I haven't seen anyone mention yet, which is neither in your video analysis nor in the comments below that I can see thus far. For example, in your video at about the 10:40 mark, Ilya and Red are on the bench talking about "Katerina," in which Ilya informs Red that "Katerina" is known to be in Paris. Ilya tells Red to be careful, and then Red goes to Paris to see this character known as "Katerina." But, if this "Katerina" imposter is "Tatiana Patrova," then why does Dom continue to speak to her so passionately as if this character actually is Katerina? Dom seems to know this lady too well to be an imposter.
To add: When Red supposedly killed this potential Katerina-imposter, known as Tatiana Patrova, in the park when Liz eyewitnessed the event, this Katerina did state that (I'm paraphrasing here) "you can't kill me because Elizabeth loves her mother" in a way that's somewhat suspiciaously condecending by her tone. With that, and with her condecending tone set aside, while Red is with Liz in Latvia showing her one of the Blacklist sites, there are flashback images of Red shooting the Katerina character in the park while also stating to Liz that "Don't believe everyting you see." One, what does that mean? And two, this Katerina character faked her death before so why not again. But again, if this was't the real Kateina, then why / how would Dom not know this in the first place? Basically, why the charade by Dom pretending to treat the so-called Katerina imposter as if she actually was his daughter? There are just too many contradictions and inconsistencies for the "Redderina" theory to hold up.
Again, many unanswered questions to these many questioining concerns, and the Season-10 finale didn't help matters much. As a matter of fact, I'm highly disappointed with how the show ended - kind of disrespectful to the fans of the show, especially for the fact that poor Liz never even entered the mind of a seemingly lost Red there in the end - very out of character.
How about the burn scars? The bag of bones says alot also.
its also possible the bones were not reddingtons, and fakes left buried until the time was right to use them, and red is the real red. the man is a master at planning ahead after all, perhaps the confusion the reveal woudl cause would be beneficial in some scenario he was planning for just in case.
but in the end, does it really matter who he was? because now he is reddington, before he became the man he is, reddington was a nobody, he built the person red is from nothing, so he is red, doesnt matter if he always was red or simply took on the name
Red is 100% not the real Redington
The real Red knew where the Fulcrum was, imposter Red didn't.
Redington would not need to get plastic surgery to be look like Red.
The bones in the bag where proven to be the real Redington through DNA.
Red was completely devoted to Liz and Jennifer was an after thought
DNA proved that the real Redington was Liz's father and imposter Red straight up says to her he is not Liz's father.
The real Redington's death and being Liz's father is confirmed repeatedly and there was nothing in the show suggesting this was not true.
Red destroyed his empire, friendships, and his relationship with Liz to keep anyone from identifying the bones.
There is no reason for Red to fight so hard to hide his identity if he is who he says he is.
The show went out of it's way to show that Red died in Katarina's lap to show he was actually dead.
Red said he had Liz's memory erased to protect her from the memory of killing her father, if he was alive no reason to do that or to lie that he was dead.
One of the first things Red says to Liz is that everything about him is a lie.
Imposter Red is shown many times that he grew up in Russia, the real Red did not he grew up in Michigan.
There are several scenes where he talks about being an imposter with Dembe, Dom and liz.
DNA confirmed that the real Redington was Liz's father and he tells her straight out he is not her father
The show creator confirmed in interviews after the season 5 final that Red was an imposter and the bones were the real Redington. I don't know what else they could have possibly done to make it absolutely clear that the Red is not Redington.
"but in the end, does it really matter who he was? because now he is reddington, before he became the man he is"
that would be the underlying premise of the show. What is the nature of identity.
You missed something : 1) in the first episode Reddington says “ everything about me is a lie” , 2) In one of the first season we have a blacklister that is a doctor who change the aspect of the criminals and when the doctor ( that is a Red friend) is killed Red sent the task force and then Red took the personal archive of the doctor with all criminals that have helped and Red removes his file before giving the archive to the task force so Red for sure had a surgery where he changed his aspect 3) linked to this there is also the episode where Liz is looking for the nurse that took part in the Red’s surgery but Red manages to make her escape so that she doesn’t reveal anything to Liz 4) then we have in season 9 while he is playing with Agnes , Agnes asked him : when did you stop being Russian? So it’s a confirmation that Red is russian so it’s Katarina , 5)then in season 10 when Red tells Siya’s story to her at one moment he says : “ I know I far a parent would go to protect their child “ furthermore it’s the first time that Raymond tells the whole truth to Siya about her and her mother and he did this because he has the regret for not telling Liz the truth
I'll grant that I left out the season 9 and 10 stuff, including a comment in the final episode about how he can't stop acting like a mother (season 10 was still airing when I was making the video). I had forgotten about the "when did you stop being Russian" part, so thanks for pointing it out. I should have mentioned it. But I don't think leaving it out harms my thesis, which is that yes, Reddington is Katarina, but that it breaks the story for it to be true. The producers seem to have decided on Redderina sometime during Season 5, since that's when the real evidence starts. Before that point are tons of contradictions, as I pointed out.
@@Half-FaceCinephile I think the producer decided on Redarina between the end of 3 season and 4 season , because the dialogue because there are the dialogue between Kaplan and Reddington about the past and then going on there are also the memories of Katarina meeting young mr Kaplan , and then at the start of season 4 there is torture suffered by Reddington with Kirk , Kirk first asked him : “ are you the father of Masha?” Reddington said no then Kirk asked :” is Masha your daughter?” Reddington said yes so I think this is the first real proof that Red is Katarina then another small subtlety is that Katarina and Reddington have the same attitudes , sometimes in scenes where Katarina is present she has her legs crossed and her hands crossed on her legs just like Reddington often does , furthermore in some scenes where Katarina is there and we see her with sunglasses she wears them on top of her head like Reddington sometimes does , another thing that come to my mind is when Ivan is captured and then when he is with Reddington’s medical team , Ivan apologies to Red for not being able to keep the secret but Red tells him if you have to apologize do it for something you are responsible for , what I am is all your fault in fact Ivan was the supervisor of Katarina and he trained her , another clue is in the last episode of season 8 when they are at the park and Liz has the picture that we see since season 2 and first asks Reddington if he took the picture and Reddington didn’t answer and then Liz asks him :” where you there , weren’t you? Red said I was there
in the end another small detail is that in Nachalo (8x21) where the whole truth comes out Reddington is telling the story to Liz but we and Liz see Katarina telling the story
@@francescocipriani8888 I think in season 4 they knew that Reddington was going to be an imposter, but they hadn't yet decided to make him Katarina. The theory that would have worked better in my opinion is that "Reddington" was a set of twins sharing the same identity. If there were twins, Raymond would be married to Naomi and have a daughter, Jennifer, but his brother, Reddington, would have a love affair with Katarina and father Masha/Liz. I would make Raymond the traitor, who dies in the fire in Delaware, having kidnapped Masha to keep his niece safe from the impending mess with the Cabal. Reddington would have returned to his house in Maryland to find Naomi and Jennifer dead in this scenario (Raymond would have faked their deaths, unbeknownst to Reddington), then he rushes to find Masha and realizes that his brother is dead and he's a fugitive, after which he places Liz with Sam and goes on the run. It would explain the same information from the first 4 seasons while closing some of the other plot holes. I'm not saying it's good writing -- the "secret twins" trope is terrible writing -- but it creates fewer problems than Redderina. They closed this option off when they introduced Hans Kohler though, because there's no reason a twin would need surgery to look like his twin brother. But this did happen in another show, "Quantico," around the same time, which I think is why they scrapped this idea, if they ever had it in the first place.
I think they did a good job making subtle nods to Redderina once they decided to go for it (Lotte Verbeek is second only to James Spader on the acting front), but I think it's a shame they chose to do it, because it broke so much of the prior story along the way.
I thought your video was fantastic! This series backtracks over itself in many instances and even as revealed by Spader on one of the late night talk shows admits that the audience was Occasionally spun some stuff to throw us off. I say this with complete humility and to demonstrate just how crazy the series made me. By season 3 I was taking notes, binge watching hours at a time and was terribly frustrated that with a IQ in the 160’s an a absolute inability to determine who Raymond was in relation to Elizabeth. I find it an absolute disgrace to claim the Rederina theory especially in the final dialogue about the pleasures he wishes to experience and one is to “Sleep the sleep I slept as a boy.”
@@Half-FaceCinephile
You interpret purposeful red herrings as back tracking and plot holes while failing to observe likely conclusions and ignoring what should be obvious narrative conventions that would answer those claimed plot holes/ backtracking. You are taking the fact that they made a slow build up that Red was an imposter as conclusive proof that they never had a story when they began the show in direct opposition of the creators, writers, and Spader himself claiming they always knew.
The fact that Redington was an imposter was set up early on. The statement that everything about him was a lie. The question if he was actually him in the first episode. An episode where someone else claims to be Redington (planting that he is an imposter). The fact he was looking for the fulcrum but was established he hid the fulcrum. The picture that blurred out Katarina's face. The question of Red's paternity, the arc with Kirk and Liz remembering she shot her father. The connection of Katarina's red hair and Red's name. Naomi suggestively stating Red looked SO different. The many double speak and avoidance from Red. The running of DNA not from the imposter Red but an older source. So much of the blacklist being focused on Identity. All the rebirth symbolism surrounding Katarina from early seasons. There are countless examples and the early clues that Red was an imposter in these early seasons taken singularly isn't very conclusive, but taken as a whole show a very purposeful pattern building towards a reveal that Red was an imposter and that he was Katarina. The fact that the story built piece by piece and snowballed over time isn't suggesting that the writers didn't know the plot, but that is how you build anticipation in a story. Particularly a mystery. You conclusion that the show didn't know who Red's identity was is erroneous and predicated on force conclusions, incorrect knowledge and and ignoring writing conventions and the interconnectedness of the information as it builds towards the narrative..
Addressing the video.
1. The fact that people knew Red's true identity isn't proof that he was not an imposter before. In fact most of the people reveled to know the truth were not confirmed to know until after the time you suggest there was this story switch. So it was obviously a purposeful decision with the fact he was an imposter in mind.
2. Kaplan obviously knew that red was an imposter that is why she went after his bones to get at him and why he was so determined to get them back. Kaplan says sorry because she was going to betray Katarin's secret. She was apologizing to Katarina, but she was digging up the bones to get at Red. The rebirth of symbolism of Katarina had been well established by that point, so the bones were always unlikely hers. The K on the tree was a purposeful mislead, it is part of Katarina's rebirth story. She became Red, his bones (and the K) was an epitaph of her death as he lived on through her transformation as him. That K if you apply a bit of literary analysis is actual proof that the writers were leading the astute viewer to that conclusion.
3. As for the people in the bunker. The dream like sequence to that reveal is suppose to indicate not that Red is telling her the whole story right there in front of everyone but that it is an amalgam of the information she has gathered as she makes connections through a thought process. The time slowing is an indication the viewer that the people around are removed from the environment.
4. The nurse is revealed to not know what Red's identity is. She stated clearly that she never knew who went in for the surgery. Your assumption that many people had access to his medical records is not valid. Medical records are accessible based on need, no one is just looking through random medical records.
5. While a blood test could show gender the claim that any time blood is tested it will show blood is nonsense. Not every test is done on every body fluid, that isn't how medical tests are done. Someone would have to specifically test the blood to see what the gender is.
6. I am not sure what your point is about Red being with women. A trans surgery isn't noticeable from casual observation, Tran men can have intercourse if they have a good full phalloplasty, Katarina states she had relations with men and women with little preference.
7. As for Cape May, the guy who wrote that episode has come out and said that the writing staff was told in season 2 that red was Katarina. Your interpretation is simple wrong, the guy who wrote it says that he wrote it from the perspective that Red was Kat. As for why she calls him Raymond it is because he IS RAYMOND. The entire point of the story is she died and was reborn as RAYMOND.
8. Katarina did commit suicide, that is the point. She killed Katarina and became someone new. She entered the ocean, was cleansed, and arose something different. It is a rebirth metaphor.
9. There is nothing suggesting that Phillips knew Red's identity. You are trying to force a continuity error by forcing an assumption that has zero support from the show. The most obvious answer is that your assumption that he knew is wrong. You also seem completely unaware of the contradiction of claiming that too many people knowing somehow indicates a switch and that Phillips has to know. Your rationalization is not consistent and are fabricating contradictions to support a predetermined conclusion.
10. As for his blood and DNA tests. Like blood tests that is not how DNA tests work. They don't just test for everything, it is in fact illegal to do that without a warrant. Identification matches markers that use non-characteristical DNA sequences. Also from 30 years prior it is unlikely that a DNA sample to use from the original Redington existed. This is somewhat confirmed by the fact that Cooper had to use a personal source to run a paternity test. Also, as I have already pointed out the show began it's purposeful laying of clues that Red was an imposter early on and this would have been an issue for who ever the imposter was.
11. You say clearly there was a different plan, but that is not clear at all. You are taking the statements at face value while ignoring the complexity of what her statement meant to Red and his contemplation is not at all clear. While I agree it is a re-contextualization the show deliberately moves the mystery along through re-contextualization and you simply ignore this fact. Red's pauses and processing of such a straight forward claim gives the viewer an indication that there is more going on here than what is alluded to. Later on it becomes clear that Red questions the downfall of his decision to become Red, of how his family dissolved, and regrets his decisions that lead to that. You can either take this scene to be the first indication of this internal conflict (while ignoring those on the show saying this was the predetermined plot) or that the plot switched, but one of those interpretations serves the story and the other is a choice to contradict the story. The choice to interpret things in a way that contradicts the story when you could interpret them in a way that serves the story is the bases of your poor analysis.
12. One of the makeup artists has said that he had put burns of Katarina's back in that scene but that they decided to cover it up. My assumption is that after getting renewed for multiple seasons they felt it was to obvious. But this does show that at the time they had already had the Redarina theory in place. Also Liz was burned in this scene and she too isn't presenting any signs of such an injury. Either there is some explanation we aren't privy to off screen (such as pain killers and a different/discarded clothes) or it was simply poor direction. Also the only two people confirmed to have been burned is Katarina and Liz.
13. The story told in the cell they later highly suggest was made up to extract information. She asks if anything he said was real and he just kind of guiltily ignores her. This is also where it begins to establish he cares little for his other family. You are ignoring context to interpret this scene in a way that contradicts the story when there is information that helps support the consistency of the story. That is poor analysis that show bias.
14. Red did not find out about her betrayal at that house, that was at the house that burned, the beach house. You are right at the time you don't know what the relationship with the house is and it isn't explained till much later. You are drawing conclusion about something based on the fact it was not revealed. The entire point of it is to help create sense of mystery.
15. The swan lake thing is again an assumption. The assumption is that there is a connection with the girl shown, but it could also just be about the story of swan lake itself. Again applying some literary analyses Swan lake is about falling in love, marriage, transformation of a woman to something else, and the grief and longing that comes from that transformation. Again looking at it through this lens it perfectly matches what Katarina is going through and is an early indication if the direction of the plot.
The only thing in your video that has any validity is the finger prints, but that in face of all the other information isn't really significant as it can be addressed as being part of the plastic surgery. Most of your arguments are either wrong about what happened in the show, based on incorrect assumptions about medicine, and ignore common literary devices. Your analysis is predicated on your choice to interpret and make assumptions about things in a way that produces contradictions. That is not a critical analysis that is an attempt to tear down a particular view point using biased interpretation.
I don't believe that Red was Katarina, I don't think it makes narrative sense or was good for the character, but even if you do believe it, there's reasonable doubt. That being said, I believe that's what the producers intended.
I agree completely. It's perfectly fine not to believe it, and if it's true it damages the story and character. That's what my video was about, in fact.
@@Half-FaceCinephile Keep it up! I'd like to see that video on how badly the fake Katarina arc was executed (if you want to make it, that is). I mean The Blacklist was always intended to be somewhat confusing for the audience, but that season was just another level. What was real, what wasn't, and the resolution to it was rushed, and I felt like Red could have done that right from the start.
I am a believer of the rederina theory. Not because its my favorite theory of the show, but its because most of the things people use to go against the theory can be chalked up to shitty writing of the show. there are some REALLY big signs that the writers were super lazy, for example, Dom was introduced as a rostova. This is impossible because his daughter acquired the last name through marriage, so why would Dom have that last name. This, plus the plot holes like blood tests not flagging as female and way too many people knowing about the "truth" while not one person tried to use that against reddington can all be seen as plot holes, or they can just be viewed as awful writing.
One thing that also needs to be mentioned is that the original producer/creator of the show left, and elizabeth left. I think this made it difficult to actually continue the show on the path they wanted to use and this is what grew many plot holes and inconsistencies.
My personal theory is that rederina was the goal the entire time, but the show was way too long for that to possibly happen. If the blacklist was a 5 or 6 season show with much less filler, there would have been less need for extreme details and therefore less contradictions and most likely a more clear path of events. We can see this as, with a few exceptions, things make sense in the earlier seasons as we are under the impression that reddington is liz' dad. Then the bones identity gets revealed and (in theory) this should have been indirect but somewhat conclusive evidence of rederina. If the show only had 2 ish more seasons after that point everything could have been cleared up but instead it got dragged out, more and more insane things had to happen with the show in order to continue to pull viewers, and in the process too many details were added that only confused the story line.
I do think that red is *supposed* to be katerina, but the combination of prolonging the show and the shitty writing leaves too many plot holes and reasons that this might not be the case. although i am pretty sure that the producers confirmed rederina through social media anyway.
I'm not sure the prolonging of the show was the problem, though I'll admit the quality went way down as time went on. I seriously hate that they tried to make Siya take the place of all the characters who had been written off the show combined. But most of the contradictory information for the theory comes from the early seasons. It becomes more explicit as time goes on that Red is Katarina, at least to me, so it seems that they got their act together and made a definitive decision about it, even if they never confirmed it definitively in the show itself. But you're right that it makes it bad writing, since there are things within the show that make it harder to believe if not impossible to be true logically. The more you have to forget about the early parts of the show for the theory to work, the worse the theory is.
I’m sorry but i can debunk that one quickly and without
Room for argument is the two times Red discusses the best things he’s experienced in his life and insists he wants to again before dying. Once when locked in cage with a Anslow Garrick and the other in final episode where here he sentimentally lists them. Drink a bottle of wine, then another, read a good book, SLEEP THE SLEEP I SLEPT AS A BOY.
@@lisabados8589 That is circular reasoning. Why would someone obfuscating that they had been living as another gender 30 years all of a sudden just admit? That is not a debunking and there is a massive amount of room for argument. It doesn't even make sense; You proof that Red isn't lying about something is the fact that he couldn't have been lying about it.
@@bverji Then why when he meets the fake katarina he is so unaware that she is a fake. He looks like a guy madly in love, if he was katarina he would be cautious. My opinion is that all theories are b*llshit and even the writers don't know the answer. The best think they could do out of respect to the audience was to write a story which wouldn't be based on either theories and conclude an amazing series full of plot twists with yet again a new twist.
@@ezekiel8137
You misinterpreted what happened. The scene is meant to be able to be interpreted in many ways, but you chose a way that was not consistent with previous clues to Reds identity. The later it is revealed that Red did know who the fake Katarina was and that Red was in fact responsible for hiding her because he felt responsible that she was used to help the real Katarina. He never thought that the fake Katarina was Katarina. After this information was revealed you fail to adjust your interpretation of what happened when you saw Red and Fake Katarina meet. It isn't the writers that don't know what happened...you just have trouble following.
He's the Real Raymond Reddington he never died in the fire
Red is 100% not the real Redington
The real Red knew where the Fulcrum was, imposter Red didn't.
Redington would not need to get plastic surgery to be look like Red.
The bones in the bag where proven to be the real Redington through DNA.
Red destroyed his empire, friendships, and his relationship with Liz to keep anyone from identifying the bones.,
There is no reason for Red to fight so hard to hide his identity if he is who he says he is.
Red was completely devoted to Liz and Jennifer was an after thought
DNA proved that the real Redington was Liz's father (as well as many people) and imposter Red straight up says to her he is not Liz's father.
The show went out of it's way to show that Red died in Katarina's lap to show he was actually dead.
Red said he had Liz's memory erased to protect her from the memory of killing her father, if he was alive no reason to do that or to lie that he was dead.
One of the first things Red says to Liz is that everything about him is a lie.
Imposter Red is shown many times that he grew up in Russia, the real Red did not he grew up in Michigan.
There are several scenes where he talks about being an imposter with Dembe, Dom, and Liz.
The show creator confirmed in interviews after the season 5 final that Red was an imposter and the bones were the real Redington. What else could they have done to convince you he was an imposter? They beat to death that he was an imposter repeatedly.
The CABAL is actualy a real thing
Yup
There are a number of people from the show who have publicly confirmed that Redarina was always the original story.
They can claim that, but I don't think I believe them. There are way too many contradictions, especially early on. And if it was always planned, why did they chicken out when it came to actually confirming it? Again, I think Redderina is the truth, but I doubt it was the original plan, and I definitely don't think it's good writing. This show had some great writing along the way, as well as some trash writing. Redderina is somewhere in the middle, but closer to the trash side, and I think they knew that, or they would have had Harold find out and say it out loud.
Oh if you don't believe them it's fine. Your choice. But chances are, that all of these people are telling the truth when speaking of the show's biggest mystery. @@Half-FaceCinephile
@@giffingna4778 I just see too many early contradictions to believe them about it. There's no reason to contradict a theory before any audience members had even caught on to the existence of the mystery...
@@Half-FaceCinephilebecause they chose Reddington being Katarina from season 2
@@francescocipriani8888 And that's fine, but it still means that there are things about it that don't make sense. I only have problems with the contradictions and logical flaws of it. As I say in the video, they tried to fix things, but didn't have the foresight to prevent the problems from arising in the first place. A lot of shows do it, but that doesn't make it good.
He is Reddington.
No most certainly not. You obviously didn't watch the show well.
You're glossing over the fact that they introduce a dna changer and plastic surgeon in the first few seasons of the blacklist. You're glossing over the fact that both Katarina and later Fake Reddington are professional liars who not only have the exact same personality thanks to that same Cape May episode you laud so vehemently but in that very episode there is dialogue in that same table seem you seem to have conveniently skip over.
“What brought you here?” “I honestly don't know.” “You've been here before.” “Once, a long time ago. I was a very different person then. You?
You. The dialogue is tricky, especially if you watch with subtitles, you do see the question mark. But she never answers him as they start dealing with the KGB or the Cabal, whoever it was that came after Katarina at that time in the past, but in reality Reddington is saying 'I was a very different person then...You." As in, he was Katarina. Thats literally the earliest direct evidence that Red once was Katarina Rostova.
The Alchemist (DNA changer) is on the Blacklist because Reddington doesn't have access to him. This is especially true for most of the season 1 Blacklisters. They mostly lead either to Berlin or to The Decembrist Alan Fitch, who framed Reddington for killing Berlin's daughter. Neither of them are allies of Reddington, who would share their associates.
As for the Cape May dialog, the period versus question mark is a big deal. It's definitely a question mark. He's asking if she had been there before. And the Fake Reddington, as someone who loved Katarina, could have come to Cape May before for any number of reasons, including the alternate explanation for why he is there in the episode Cape May. That is, to imagine how Katarina felt at the time. He doesn't have to be Katarina to have come to Cape May to be introspective. Heck, Cape May houses a Naval/Coast Guard training facility. He doesn't even have to have been introspective, just "a different person" (as in still a good citizen and not a criminal).
Also, I would point out that after this exchange, he asks for the woman's name, indicating that he doesn't recognize Katarina in his hallucination. I said in the video that there are many things in the episode that can be taken ex post facto as evidence, and that conversation is one of them, but I still don't think that it was the actual intention for the story at the time.
Thank you so much for the thoughtful comment.
@@Half-FaceCinephile What are you basing your claim that " Reddington doesn't have access to him. This is especially true for most of the season 1 Blacklisters" on?
I base that (admitted) conjecture on the fact that Reddington needs something from each of these criminals in order to identify his unknown enemy, Berlin, and discover why he's being targeted by Berlin, whom he doesn't know. If he had access to the Stewmaker or the Alchemist, he wouldn't need the FBI to arrest them in order to find their client lists. And if he were named on those client lists, the FBI would have noted it, especially in Season 1 when they were the most hostile to Reddington.
I would also say that "Katarina Rostova" can't be on their client lists either, because that would be proof that she's alive and the Townsend Initiative would have activated over it once they were logged into FBI evidence.
I'll admit that I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the thinking is sound on this point.
@@Half-FaceCinephile "I base that (admitted) conjecture"
Ok...your reasoning is flawed though. Him needing them to identify Belin and having access to them are not mutually exclusive. He could be using the FBI also to get close to Liz, to use their resources, to find the fulcrum as well, to obfuscate that it is Red going after these people and a whole list of other reasonable possibilities or combination thereof.
It's not flawed logic. Reddington doesn't sic the FBI on his friends/allies. If they worked for him, they'd be off-limits to the FBI, not fodder for them. He made that clear to Liz when she met his plastic surgeon, and he made his rules on the matter clear when he gave up the troll farmer after their falling out. And again, even if he used their services, the FBI would have made some noise about that when he appeared in the client list. They retrieved the client list before Reddington could alter it, and in fact gave it to him.
And other motives for contacting the FBI are irrelevant: Reddington needed the client list, so he was on the blacklist. If he could have gotten the list by any other means, like just calling him and asking, he wouldn't have burned the guy as a useful and lucrative criminal contact.
Great run down!! I like yourself can’t stand the Rederina theory… Reds character for me is set up early as so charming and so seductive, especially with women. Why the producers would choose to change course is an absolute tragedy.
Here is an alternative theory I have thought about… what if Liz when she was a young girl, didn’t shoot reddington… but accidentally shot her mother and killed her. And from their the whole cover up starts… reddington fakes his own death, then comes back as an imposter, also makes up a make believe story that Katerina committed suicide, and somehow erases Liz’s memory to protect her mental state… the bones introduced later are in fact the bones of Katerina… and Red never wants Liz to find out the truth… this would go to the theory that Red is the real Raymond Reddington and the father of Liz… let me know what you guys think of this… bless up!!
If I remember correctly, they screw up the possibility of Liz shooting Katarina pretty early. Maybe even in the first episode, when he said her mother died of weakness and shame. Of course, they screwed with the continuity of the 1st season so much that they could probably have done it anyways. LOL
Doesn’t make sense , real Reddington would knew where the fulcrum was , real Red didn’t know Ilya and Ivan so couldn’t get the archive , Ilya and Red talks about when they were children and only Katarina knew Ilya since childhood
You know a lot. Help me understand WHY he went to warn fake Katarina if he is Katarina - that has bothered me but I half watch out of being so irritated at Liz. (I'm not finished but want to be thus I am not worried about spoilers. I basically love the show for RR and Dembe) @@Half-FaceCinephile
@@jenniferschade7553 Red (real Katarina) felt responsible for the death of fake Katarina's husband and her being on the run as a fake Katarina. Although Red being the pragmatist he is also used the fake Katarina to help keep those hunting after the real Katarina off her trail. So he went to warn her because he felt responsible for her, but also because if someone caught up to her and got her to admit she was a fake then people would start to wonder were the real Katarina was.
Good video
Does nobody just watch a show and enjoy it without making a mystery out of everything. ?.
I think it's absolutely fine to not care whatsoever about Reddington's identity. The show made it an issue, then made the issue moot by killing off all of the characters that cared about the answer in universe. Personally, I cared enough to make the video because I had some additional investment in the show as it was ending, despite the final season being really bad...lol.
Thank you for saying that! For me, they great thing about the show was that they didn't tell us who is is - because, as Liz said (in season 6 or 7, I believe), it doesn't matter. The ending was perfect. I know I'm pretty much alone with this opinion, but I don't think the writers were lazy, on the contrary, the writing on The Blacklist is great - but it's also very unconventional and a lot of people don't like that. The show loved to not meet the audience's expectations and of course that creates anger and frustration. As for me, I adore that they dared to be different.
I guess everybody forget about all the women red slept with even in his pass but to each is own 🤦🏾♂️
I guess you don't know that people with trans surgery can "sleep with women," nor that even men who are impudent "still have physical relationships with women."
I personally had no problems with the way they ended it; because I was not going to support the claim that Raymond reddington was katarina rostova, it was just too far fetched and Impossible due to the fact that medical science back in the 70s, 80s, even early 90s, wasn't advanced enough like it is today to make transitioning a person to such a believable degree possible so unless they had alien technology of some sort I wasn't just gonna go along with something like that so good on them for ending the series the way they did, It keeps his legend alive in a way and I personally will always view him as Liz keen's uncle, the older long lost brother of katerina rostova! 😉😁💯🔥👍
Just my thoughts. :) It's so silly how people now claim bad writing on the show everytime something doesn't fit the Red/Katerina theory. Perhaps it was simply always meant to be a mystery. Spader said at the beginning in 2013 that the main storyline was already planned out until the show's end.
@rebeccajunge2499 Exactly so there really wasn't any need to even try to figure out who reddington was because it was established right from the beginning that we weren't ever going to solve the mystery, that this was going to be one of those things that we (the audience) were never really meant to know for sure, kind of like what they did with the show LOST and I was perfectly fine with that for it did not take away the thrill ride of trying to figure out what was going on with him or made exploring his mysterious origin story any less exciting! 🤔😆😁😉🔥💯👍
Yes, I know what you mean. For me, it was of course fun to speculate who he might be, but the main reason I enjoy the show is simply watching him BE Reddington with the crazy Blacklisters, the endless stories and the interaction with the supporting cast. It's the journey, not the destination... ;) @@vmaninc.761
I think that Spader would have been attracted by the idea of Reddington actually being Katarina. It could be why he wanted to do The Blacklist. James has played many strange characters in his career and this was another one. Done to perfection, IMO. The fact that he never won an Emmy for this role is an absolute crime. I still miss him.
@judithsevon3623 I can definitely see that but I believe he was more attracted to the idea of his character's origins remaining a mystery due to the fact they wouldn't be able to pull off such a feat and make it believable; so I for one I'm perfectly fine with the way it was done and I miss him dearly as well!
Great breakdown of an extremely convoluted story. I used to love this show but stopped watching it somewhere around season five. It’s interesting but also a bit sad to see how it all ended.
He whispered the truth to Kirk to let himself free
He literally told Kirk under truth serum that Liz was his daughter and then the show later confirms many times that Liz's father is dead.
@@shaun3713Kirk wouldn’t care about a third man because he is sick and doesn’t care , if Red told him I ‘ am not the real Reddington Kirk wouldn’t care he would have killed him anyway , he told him “It’s me Alexander and then something that only Katarina and Kirk could know
He WAS Agnes' GrandFATHER!!!!
This was a poor final episod we got no answers about reddington,
They need to make just one more show and give us the answers,
We was let down by the makers of the black list,
Would I watch the last series knowing the ending ,
NO I would not,
Redarina was confirmed by writers on the show. The rumour is NBC didn't want to confirm it in the show because they felt it was too sensitive a topic given the audience tastes of 2023.
Personally, I think the lack of definitive answers during the show was unfair to fans after 10 seasons. If the writers believed in Redarina they needed to commit to a confirmation in Season 10. The whole point of season 10 appeared to be to kill Red. When it happened, it felt inevitable, heavy handed metaphorically, and a betrayal of this great character who always found a way out. It's hinted he is dying anyway but like Redarina, leaving it all ambiguous is simply lazy writing. There's a line from Nietzsche to the effect that "poets muddy their waters that they may seem deep" and the show's writers did a lot of that as they hurtled towards the inevitable conclusion. Perhaps a chunk of the blame lies with the network.
This show could have been on a top tier show like the sopranos and breaking bad, and others they had the main character thar could have unlocked a tons of sotry plots, but no, they writters kept on contradicting themselves because i believes we all wanted red to be exactly red and not Katarina but no they keep on throwing Katarina in our faces 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
Reddington is Liz's mom
I still don't get why they didn't confirm or wouldn't confirm who Red actually was in S10??/ You would think after dragging the show for 10 seasons when everyone wants to know the same thing but yet they don't tell us. If u ask me thats a POOR execution of the writers cuz they teased it for how many seasons then Liz died and it was basically moot after that and a trash series ending for 1 of the best TV Shows to come out.
I think it was so that they could have both segments of the audience (those who see the clues of Redderina and those who don't) both be happy with the show. If they confirmed one way or another during the series, they would lose half the audience whichever way they did it. This way, they can say in future interviews that it was always the plan (when it clearly wasn't), while also not offending those who would have stopped watching if it had been confirmed during the show.
It's just a shame that they didn't keep the quality of the show up while also trying to have their cake and eat it. Seasons 7-10 are really bad compared to the earlier stuff, and 6 wasn't that great either.
He could have changed his finger prints with the alkimiest that what he did
I think you did a good job, but you forgot to add the actual blacklister’s. The blacklister’s have also a way into who RR is. There was one that was good at changing blood at crime scenes. The Doctor RR kidnapped and had her identity changed to help Konstantine stay alive. The stewmaker, all of them have a way into the storyline also.
True, but I don't think he ever used their specific services. The Stewmaker and Adrian Shaw were specifically added to the Blacklist so that the FBI could find them for him. And he never needed to fake his death by changing DNA. I was just trying to list the people who absolutely must know his identity, which even excluded Constantine Rostov, because we never really get to know what exactly was said in that last moment. And like I said in the video, there are some mixed messages as well, especially about whether or not Mr. Kaplan knows his identity for sure.
@@Half-FaceCinephile I don’t think Mr. Kaplan knew his identity because she would have said something. The scene where RR met Mr. Kaplan and ask her to help build up his empire, she didn’t know him. I do think Liz relationship to her surrogate father is a contact of Dom. Dom said he had contacts in America. I think from some strange reason there is something there we are missing.
Exactly, the guy who ends up getting tracked down by his daughter's insulin pump. RR describes him a virtuoso working in blood and tissue he could change Dna although he was much younger, there were others
He and Dr kriloff only know who Raymond is
Actually the nurse that was present also ( that is if she is still alive that was left a bit ambiguous)
♥♥👑👑❤🔥❤🔥💯💥🥇♥‼‼‼‼
@bverji : You can write me a load of rubbish: there's material proof, among other very strong clues. You can theorize all you like, but so can I.
Otherwise : Authors can change their minds if they wish, and even make mistakes or oversights.
A few examples: How can Liz, born in December 85, kill her father when she's 4 years old, so in 89, and have him reappear in 90 for Christmas?
- In your hypothesis, it can't be Redina, because the processing times indicated in S8 - if it's really about Redina - are longer.
And since Red is dead, it can't be him.
- Why does the first scene refer to a "return home", when neither the real Reddington nor Katerina worked there?
- Why does Fred dreamily speak to a Ressler dying of his boyhood past?
- Why does Fred seek out Rostova before the character becomes important in the series, if he's Redina? It's a nonsense.
- Who's the little girl dancing classical ballet in '87?
- What's in Dembé's box?What's in Dembé's box?
- If we rule out a dystopia, it's also not medically feasible to transplant real testicles, only prostheses.
And that would leave scars, which Madeleine Pratt, for example, would have taken advantage of ... Or would have been noticed by the many women he knew (e.g. Anne).
Or maybe we're assuming a dystopia where surgery doesn't leave scars, but then that doesn't fit with the marks on Fred's body.
And so on. A lot of the acting and lines during the seasons are along these lines.
Otherwise, for proof, ask your doctor when a cariotype analysis is done, and you'll just have to find the three right episodes.
Theories abound.
For example: Fred is an American agent - double or not, born in Russia or not - Liz's father because Katherina had many lovers.
He took Vred's place on the orders of the government (American or Russian), then escaped its control by discovering the truth about the criminals who were also there (Fred has a strong aversion to governments).
Nothing in any of the episodes contradicts this theory. And I can name half a dozen that hold up just as well.
In short, the writers changed their story, which is their right, and then everyone pointed out that it had been that way all along, so as not to look like idiots or cowards.
And that's what it's all about: taking the piss out of those who have endorsed their success and fortune.
What if Fred was a clone of Katherina's favourite alien octopus? Why not? Everyone on the show would have confirmed it too?
And we're supposed to take their word for it, when it could also be proven that this wasn't the original theme?
Last detail: the writers never validated Redina during the broadcast, not even in season 8, 9 or 10.
All relative scenes can be interpreted with other theories.
Remarks made without intervention by Teddy Brimley ...
It isn't theorizing, those are actual facts of what happened in the show. You are wrong and choose to ignore actual concreate examples from the show illustrating that you are wrong.
Sure writers " can change their minds if they wish"
but they have said that didn't happen in regards to Red's identity. Thus you need irrefutable evidence that they are lying rather than your theories simply are incorrect. You failed to do that and this video failed to do that. This video is just forced conclusions and based on assumed knowledge that is false.
" and even make mistakes or oversights."
Sure TV shows make mistakes all the time. But that doesn't mean you can just assume something is a mistake without evidence of contradiction. I would also say the things you listed as "mistakes" 1. are more dropped plot lines (probably because they didn't hire a writing staff until season 2), 2. assumes Fred, who is pretending to be Redington, it is a contradiction for him to continue that charade and fort people treating him as if he is the real Redington (that is not a mistake that is consistent with the plot). 3. Or fixated on information that isn't a contradiction to the story. The fact that the show may have mistakes also doesn't have any bearing on what we are discussing unless you are pointing to a mistake that directly applies to the discussion showing that the staff has lied.
Theories are easy to make. I can make a theory that Red is an alien sent down to prep for an evasion. It doesn't make it a VALID theory. there is "Nothing in any of the episodes contradicts this theory (your quote)" but there is NOTHING to support it either. Creating a theory out of nothing but fan fiction as you have done is not valid. There are NO theories that have any support from the show other than Redarina. For example, your theory about Fred being a foreign agent. Such an agent is not presented in the show. It is acharacter you made up...thus there can be no evidence from the show to suggest this is true, so such a "thoey" has no validity. Can you honestly not see how suggesting that creating a theory based on no evidence from the show and then arguing it is valid because "Nothing in any of the episodes contradicts this theory." is devoid of any consideration of how EVIDENCE determines the path of solving a mystery. You are Literally just creating fan fiction based on things not specifically addressed in the story BECAUSE they NEVER were part of the story and ignoring that there is no evidence to support it. That is not a logical way to follow a story because you are purposely attempting to circumvent the need for evidence to lead to the conclusion. A failure to recognize that these two things (Redarina and fan fiction) are not equivalent and destroys your credibility as it shows you are not using logical analysis to try and solve the mystery .
You are doing the same thing with your assertion the staff lied. You have absolutely no proof that they lied and you are basing it entirely on the fact you want to believe it is true and thought that it couldn't be proven to not be true. But even if it couldn't be proven that they did not lie that IS NOT PROOF they did lie. Now that I gave examples of how the show began with some signs in the first season and presented that the show had proven Redarina in season 5 you choose to just ignore it.
The writers did validate Redarina in the broadcast. It just took actually putting the pieces together. Even when I present the pieces to you and explain how they fit together you just ignore that they exist. Heck, even by the end of the second season the show had presented all the information needed to know that Red was Katarina. Red tells Liz directly that he is not her father and later admits under truth serum that Liz is his daughter. It wasn't that hard to deduce and done early and then repeatedly supported through out the show, some people just got distracted by the noise and ignored what the writers wrote.
Some of the evidence that leads to Redarina
1. Red tells Kirkov Liz's is his daughter, (under truth serum), we later find out her father is dead.
2. There is a scene in season 3 where Red is looking out of the window at a child. In the season 8 final this same scene is done with Katarina. Red and Katarina are standing in the same spot, seeing the same thing, at the same time. They were literally sharing a brain.
3. Both Katarina and Red are both identified as N13
4. Fake Katarina is searching for the real Katarina and after being told where she is by Dom fake Katarina says to Red "You have been right in front of me the whole time."
5. Kaplan apologizes to "Katarina" when she digs up Redington's bones, which she is doing to hurt Red. Later found out that the bones are the real Redington
6. Kaplin says Little Nikko helped her after Annie was shot, and Red responds that Kate knows that he was "away" At that time in Kate's flashbacks, Katarina tells Kate she must go "away."
7. Ivan and Ilya are both childhood/old friends of Red and of Katarina.
8. After Dom is shot by Paris Katarina, he apologize to Red not understanding him...which is what katarina and Red says about her father.
9. We see Dom, Katarina's father, sentimentally attached to his Wagoneer. Red sentimentally describes how his dad drove a Wagoneer. Both Katarina's father and Red's father are shown to/described as liking peanuts, being authoritarian, and excommunicating their child
10. Both Red and Katarina say their dad didn't understand them, but their mother did.
11. Red obviously cares deeply for Liz, but has very little concern for Jennifer.
12. Both Red and Katarina said they were the one to have Liz's memories wiped.
13. Katarina is the only person presented in the story that isn't accounted for after the imposter gets the plastic surgery done.
14. One of the very first things that Red says to Liz is that everything about him was a lie. Taken literally that would include gender.
15. Kaplan said she put Liz in Red's arms 30 years ago, but Katarina is the only person the viewer ever sees that Kaplan hands baby Liz too.
16. It is said repeatedly that they aren't telling Liz what Red's identity is because she couldn't accept it. Who could make more sense than the loss of a mother she never knew.
17. Kate says she wanted to look after Liz, but couldn't while hiding. Becoming Redington accomplishes that. If Red was someone other than Katarina then she is gone and not looking after Liz. Knowing that she is alive and yet is never seen in the show has meaning. That absence is evidence in itself that Red is Katarina.
18. Kaplan tells both Red and Katarina that she will do what is best for Liz. This is a literary device called mirroring. When Kaplan betrayed Red he was betraying them both, that was the literary point of having Katarina say the same thing to both of them.
19. Katarina's most obvious feature is her RED hair. People with RED hair are often called RED. It is not a coincidence that "Redington's" name is also shortened to RED. It is a literary device to connect the two characters.
20. The last time Katarina is ever seen is at the plastic surgeon before imposter Red gets surgery.
21. and the fact that Red was Katarina has been confirmed by staff.
I could easily go on for another 20. You know how many examples that can be pointed to that supports any other "theory?" None, Zero, Zip. Redarina is literary the only person that can be Red that has anything you can point to in the show. That absence of other support is again evidence of Redarina. These examples go from the first episode throughout the series. To argue that the writers "never validated Redarina during the broadcast" is utterly false. When you have evidence that you can point to for an answer, and the people who created the show give you the same answer, and there is NO evidence for any other possible answer and you STILL refuse to acknowledge the answer provided you aren't basing your conclusion on what happened in the show nor on logic.
Also, what is the deal with responding to me in an entirely new thread? Do not know how to hit the reply button?
Hi @bverji
Yes, we have proof.
As someone who took the series in its stride, I quickly noticed that Red wasn't Red, and came up with another theory.
But I revisited it recently through the "Redina" prism. Because basically, I don't really care if he's so-and-so or what's-his-name.
And here, apart from serious clues from the first season, there's material evidence in s2, which appears almost innocuously.
But it's irrefutable, unless you postulate that Blacklist is a dystopia in an alternative dimension (which I'm willing to accept, why not).
What I'm saying is that the writers stupidly lied: "Redina" was not the series' initial objective. They probably chose this option so they could sell a couple more seasons.
And NBC wouldn't have accepted this initiative at the time, their objective not being originality but the sale of brain time available to watch commercials.
Of course, it can't be ruled out that there were plenty of script errors in the early days, but that would surprise me, as the early seasons are very well written and coherent.
And if other clues are anything to go by, "Redina" leads to major inconsistencies.
I started writing down the episodes and minutes of these clues and evidence.
Perhaps I'll publish them one day. If I'm given 5 roubles beforehand! :)
Sorry for my poor English, but it's not my native language.
There is no such proof and this video is all based on forced analysis, which is why you claim there is but don't actually state WHAT it is.
Spader, writers, directors, and show creators all said they knew from the beginning. So, for it to be a lie not only would it be a lie from multiple sources, but one not contradicted by anyone else in the know... very unlikely. To conclude it is a lie, one who is being objective, would have to have substantial evidence and there is no evidence. The lack of this evidence, like there is no clues throughout the series to Red's identity that are not short lived, other than Katarina is its-self proof that they are not lying. If the staff had lied there would be clues to Red's identity building through the seasons, like there was with Redarina, but this evidence doesn't exist. This idea that the show switched the story line is objectively false; created by people to justify the fact that they didn't pick up on the direction the show was heading. You can follow the building clues that Red was and imposter and Katarina from the very first episode and there is no other clues to support anyone else. This is why the Redarina was already a predominate theory by the end of season 3 and the prevailing theory after Cape May.
There is plenty of evidence in the first season indicating that they were planting the seeds for Redington being an imposter and Katarina. .
Red set up he is an imposter (and possibly not his gender) by saying everything about him is a lie.
An episode early in the first season about an imposter Redington to plant the seed.
Him being her father is to obvious, the show begins predicated on the question who is Red to Liz.
Red indicates to Liz that who he is is far more complicated then he is her father.
Red tells Liz straight up he is not her father and her father is dead in the first season
Yet the love Red has for Liz seem's paternal
Liz does a paternity test, but decides not to read it
Red kills Sam to hide who he is.
There is an elegance and gentlemaness to Red
They present verbal imagery of Katarina being reborn...walking into the ocean to never be seen again
Katarina's absence, the nature of her suicide and the picture of her face being obfuscated is suggestive she was still alive.
When Red was talking to the plastic surgeon he asks "Who knows about the work I've had done?'""
Red tells Madeline Pratt about his family disappearing, but then later indicates it could have all have been a lie.
There is no indication of Red/Redington having any relationship with his family
and many little open ended and forced dialog to create double meaning to conclude he was an imposter and done in a way to NOT exclude Katarina.
By the end of season 5 there was No reasonable conclusion other than Red was Katarina. It had been established that imposter Red was Liz's parent, the real Redington was Liz's father and he was dead. That had to mean that Red was Liz's mother. That was the entire point of introducing the Fake Katarina. By the end of seasom two all the information was there to establish that Red was Katarina as he admits Liz is his duaghter, but he is not her father. To extend the mystery and thus the show they had to draw the viewer away from the Redarina conclusion with a short term misdirect to then set up the reveal (as much as they were going to) that Red was Katarina. The conclusion that the staff lied about Redarina had always been the direction has no factual support whats-so-ever and is directly contradicted by the facts.
He’s Katherina, it makes perfect sense to be honest.
If Reddington is Katarina restova how she could change her voice from a women to a man surgeon can change some body parts but not the voice! My guess
:rolleyes because Spader isn't really trans and the actor and actress are different people. It is a TV show not real life. There is going to be at least a little bit of suspension of disbelief evolved. It is like when you have an actor in a show and a child actor represents them when they are younger...do you question the fact that the kid obviously wasn't the actor when they were young? Of course not because that would be asinine.
The facts presented in the show are overwhelming that Katarina was Red, there is not any evidence to suggest it was anyone else, and it has been confirmed by one of the writers. Trying to compare two different people and contend that is somehow proof the story doesn't intend them to be the same person (based on the fact they are actually not the same person) is ridiculous and not even comparable to the evidence that Red had been Katarina.
Red is just a person that Katerina hand picked to look over Liz , he talks about it! Ppl in the comments are like then why would he take care of a random baby?! Ppl adopt babies all the time! He was assigned to look over Liz but in the process became a father for her. That’s what happens when red assigned Tom to Liz! Red is a simple but complex person
He was Ilya.
@@dianegilberti5864 He can't be Ilya. You see him when he is older with Red.
You take purposeful red herrings, things not specifically addressed, and lack of concreate evidence from early seasons as back tracking and plot holes and fail to observe the likely conclusions ignoring what should be obvious narrative conventions and that a show isn't expected to provide concreate evidence in the early part of its run. You are taking the fact that they made a slow build up that Red was an imposter as conclusive proof that they never had a story when they began the show in direct opposition of the creators, writers, and Spader himself claiming they always knew. The fact that Redington was an imposter was set up early on. The statement that everything about him was a lie. The question if he was actually him in the first episode. An episode where someone else claims to be Redington (planting that he is an imposter). The fact he was looking for the fulcrum but was established he hid the fulcrum. The picture that blurred out Katarina's face. The question of Red's paternity, the arc with Kirk and Liz remembering she shot her father. The connection of Katarina's red hair and Red's name. Naomi suggestively stating Red looked SO different. The many double speak and avoidance from Red. The running of DNA not from the imposter Red but an older source. So much of the blacklist being focused on Identity. All the rebirth symbolism surrounding Katarina from early seasons. There are countless examples and the early clues that Red was an imposter in these early seasons taken singularly isn't very conclusive, but taken as a whole show a very purposeful pattern building towards a reveal that Red was an imposter and that he was Katarina. The fact that the story built piece by piece and snowballed over time isn't suggesting that the writers didn't know the plot, but that is how you build anticipation in a story. Particularly a mystery.
Addressing the video.
1. The fact that people knew Red's true identity isn't proof that he was not an imposter before. In fact most of the people reveled to know the truth were not confirmed to know until after the time you suggest there was this story switch. So it was obviously a purposeful decision with the fact he was an imposter in mind.
2. Kaplan obviously knew that red was an imposter that is why she went after his bones to get at him and why he was so determined to get them back. Kaplan says sorry because she was going to betray Katarin's secret. She was apologizing to Katarina, but she was digging up the bones to get at Red. The rebirth of symbolism of Katarina had been well established by that point, so the bones were always unlikely hers. The K on the tree was a purposeful mislead, it is part of Katarina's rebirth story. She became Red, his bones (and the K) was an epitaph of her death as he lived on through her transformation as him. That K if you apply a bit of literary analysis is actual proof that the writers were leading the astute viewer to that conclusion.
3. As for the people in the bunker. The dream like sequence to that reveal is suppose to indicate not that Red is telling her the whole story right there in front of everyone but that it is an amalgam of the information she has gathered as she makes connections through a thought process. The slowing of time and camera drawing into Liz is telling the viewer to ignore everyone else,
4. The nurse is revealed to not know what Red's identity is. She stated clearly that she never knew who went in for the surgery. Your assumption that many people had access to his medical records is not valid. Medical records are accessible based on need.
5. While a blood test could show gender the claim that any time blood is tested it will show blood is nonsense. Not every test is done on every body fluid, that isn't how medical tests are done. Someone would have to specifically test the blood to see what the gender is.
6. I am not sure what your point is about Red being with women. A trans surgery isn't noticeable from casual observation, Tran men can have intercourse if they have a full good phalloplasty, Katarina states she had relations with men and women with little preference.
7. As for Cape May, the guy who wrote that episode has come out and said that the writing staff was told in season 2 that red was Katarina. Your interpretation is simple wrong, the guy who wrote it says that he wrote it from the perspective that Red was Kat. As for why she calls him Raymond it is because he IS RAYMOND. The entire point of the story is she died and was reborn as RAYMOND.
8. Katarina did commit suicide, that is the point. She killed Katarina and became someone new.
9. There is nothing suggesting that Phillips knew Red's identity. You are trying to force a continuity error by forcing an assumption that has zero support from the show. The most obvious answer is that your assumption that he knew is wrong. You also seem completely unaware of the contradiction of claiming that too many people knowing somehow indicates a switch and that Phillips has to know. Your rationalization is not consistent are are fabricating contradictions to support a predetermined conclusion.
10. As for his blood and DNA tests. Like blood tests that is not how DNA tests work. They don't just test for everything, it is in fact illegal to do that without a warrant. Identification uses markers that don't show characteristical traits. Also from 30 years prior it is unlikely that a DNA sample to use from the original Redington existed. This is somewhat confirmed by the fact that Cooper had to use a personal source to run a paternity test. Also, as I have already pointed out the show began it's purposeful laying of clues that Red was an imposter early on and this would have been an issue for who ever the imposter was.
11. You say clearly there was a different plan, but that is not clear at all. You are taking the statements at face value while ignoring the complexity of what her statement meant to to Red and his contemplation is not at all clear. While I agree it is a re-contextualization the show deliberately moves the mystery along through re-contextualization and you simply ignore this fact. Red's pauses and processing of such a straight forward claim gives the viewer an indication that there is more going on here than what is alluded to. Later on it becomes clear that Red questions the downfall of his decision to become Red, of how his family dissolved, and regrets his decisions that lead to that. You can either take this scene to be the first indication of this internal conflict (while ignoring those on the show saying this was the predetermined plot) or that the plot switched.
12. One of the makeup artists has said that he had put burns of Katarina's back in that scene but that they decided to cover it up. My assumption is that after getting renewed for multiple seasons they felt it was to obvious. But this does show that at the time they had already had the Redarina theory in place. Also Liz was burned in this scene and she too isn't presenting any signs of such an injury. Either there is some explanation we aren't privy to off screen (such as pain killers and a different/discarded clothes) or it was simply poor direction.
13. The story told in the cell they later highly suggest was made up to extract information. She asks if anything he said was real and he just kind of guiltily ignores her. This is also where it begins to established that Red has very little emotion for his other family.
14. Red did not find out about her betrayal at that house, that was at the house that burned. You are right at the time you don't know what the relationship with the house is and it isn't explained till much later. You are drawing conclusion about something based on the fact it was not revealed. The entire point of it is to help create sense of mystery.
15. The swan lake thing is again an assumption. The assumption is that there is a connection with the girl shown, but it could also just be about the story of swan lake itself. Again applying some literary analyses Swan lake is about falling in love, marriage, transformation of a woman to something else, and the grief and longing that comes from that transformation. Again looking at it through this lens it perfectly matches what Katarina is going through and is an early indication if the direction of the plot.
The only thing in your video that has any validity is the finger prints, but that in face of all the other information isn't really significant as it can be addressed as being part of the plastic surgery. Most of you arguments are either wrong about what happened in the show, based on incorrect assumptions about medicine, and ignore common literary devices.
Wow. Thanks for the comment. I enjoy talking these things over, so it's nice to find people who think about it differently than I do. I'll start by saying that I agree that they made Redderina the actual truth and have only writing problems with that choice. There are plenty of clues, but again, I see them start, at the very earliest, in season 4. Before that point, there's not much that would indicate Katarina being the right answer, even if there are subtle hints at his imposter status.
I'll respond to a few of your points.
Re: Blood testing. Yes, you test for things specifically, but Spalding Stark in particular was testing for literally everything. Reddington had a mystery disease, after all. As to the medical records, my point was that he was rotating doctors in his mobile units, and Mr. Kaplan was keeping his records handy for them to use. They all had access whenever they were called in for him. And I even said in the video that this isn't the biggest of deals, because of medical ethical standards, it's just odd that, in just an eight year period of his 30+ years as a fugitive, there are upward of 20 unnamed characters and seven or eight named characters that we see would know the same information that Ian Garvey died for knowing.
Re: DNA testing. This one is a full on retcon for the show. I'm not referring to the paternity test. I am referring to Reddington's blood being identified in Anslo Garrick Part 2. They had both his DNA from the scene of the crime where he was tortured by Anslo and Alan Fitch, and a set of DNA to match to that. This means that it was unnecessary for Harold to pull old DNA illegally to perform the paternity test. It was already on file. And, incidentally, the very first thing that DNA tells you is gender. Why would anyone test the markers of female DNA against a male candidate?
Re: Cape May. There are two major issues with this being thought of as Katarina in both instances. First, the circumstances and emotions are not the same. Committing suicide to protect Liz and committing suicide because Liz died are fundamentally different. And metaphorical suicide is not the same as real suicide. Ever. Second, this is too important a moment in Katarina's life for Reddington to play so stupid about it. He doesn't recognize his own face? He doesn't realize until the end that all of this already happened to him? This pivotal moment in his existence. The prime decision that has completely defined his life for 30 years is something he just forgets? At best, that is atrocious writing, and since it's my actual favorite episode of the show, I would like to maintain a high opinion of it.
Re: Phillips, and the Takoma Park House. Phillips doesn't have to know the truth for my point about the opening scene to be valid. He considers Washington DC to be home. Since when? Raymond Reddington did, but Katarina had an entirely different life, and according to the flashback episode in season 8 never felt comfortable in Naomi's house. But 30 years later, she considers it home? Also, the Takoma Park house contradiction is still valid. Reddington blows the house up because "I spend every day trying to forget what happened here." Nothing happened to Katarina there, at all. Certainly not something worthy of blowing up the house after thirty years of daily regret about it. And also, why watch the home movies of Jennifer playing? Why care about Jennifer's height chart? These are all aspects of that scene that completely contradict Redderina, all of which I brought up in the video.
Re: Ballet. This cannot be metaphorical. He is literally holding a program for the show he is imagining. Even the dancers are gossiping about it. It is explicit within the show. And it also cannot be Liz. I might grant that Redderina was an early idea from the writers, perhaps even earlier than I allow within the video, but I see 0% chance that it was from the start of the show. That has to be a lie from the producers, who can say anything they want retroactively. I mean, George Lucas retroactively changed the war on which Star Wars was meant to be based. But the first season has a preponderance of evidence against Redderina being the plan. And there's no reason for them to directly contradict it so completely this early in the series, when no one in the audience was thinking about it anyways.
Thank you again for the response, and I would love to keep discussing this if you like. Blacklist was one of the last remaining shows I could stand to watch recently, so I have a decent amount of residual investment in it.
@@Half-FaceCinephile
Depends on what you consider is "plenty" but it would be unrealistic to expect that there would be enough clues in any way to suggest to the audience that Red was Katarina in the first season. The story isn't going to give all the cookies away in the first season. The first/Second season are primarily about establishing The Blacklist, the format, and Red's relationship to Liz. Then the show progresses towards him being an poster imposter, and then towards his identity. That is exactly the progression the story should take and you are taking that story structure as a sign that there wasn't a plan or a change in the plan. That simply isn't a realistic conclusion the more realistic conclusion is that the story is just building naturally.
Even with that, however, there are several clues that Red was Katarina in the first season. Claiming the mother walked into the ocean (rebirth symbolism), the blurring of her picture (suggests her identity will become important), the mysterious absence of the mother, Red's avoidance to talk about her, The swan lake symbolism, claiming "everything" about him was a lie. All this in the first season and I am sure there are others I am not even thinking of. These are soft clues but to maintain the mystery they have to be clues that can only be understood after the story progresses much further down and there are enough of these clues in season one that they show a pattern from the very first episode throughout season 1.
Blood Testing: Saying that Stark "literally testing for everything" is hyperbolic in an attempt to force a conclusion. There is nothing supporting what he is specifically testing for. Granted he likely knew if Red had been a female before because if Red was looking for help and his sex could be significant information. But, Stark was working for Red he is not someone trying to identify him. It has no relevance to the conflict. Stark knowing in season 6 in no way supports your premise. It is also a bit of backtracking as in the video you were talking about his mobile medical units and they have no reason at all to test his blood for his sex.
When you include things like Stark, the medical records, incorrect assumptions about medical records as a way to support your theory and they don't have any significant relevance, it weakens your arguments as a whole. It makes it seem that you have difficulties deciphering what is relevant and irrelevant information.
DNA: So Anslo Garrick never did a DNA test. He had Red for less than a day and there was nothing suggesting they took his blood and tested it. This is just factually incorrect. I think you have it backwards. First, the DNA on File is the real Reddington's so it couldn't be from the imposter Red. Second, The fact that the FBI never did a DNA test suggests that they didn't have the DNA at the time. The sequence of event means likely that Harrold doing the test from his source is what placed Redington's DNA in CODIS.
Cape May: First, I will reiterate that the writer has said he wrote this after being informed that Red was Katarina. Second your observations are very subjective. Third, even if your observations are valid, they aren't significant. Katarina did try to kill herself she just failed. From a narrative POV this is about the exploration of identity, it is questioning of what makes someone who they are. If you change enough of yourself at what point does the old you cease to exist. This is the theme the story is exploring and how it connects in part to suicide and rebirth. Your comparison of the differences of why they commit suicide doesn't support your position. Even granted they are different. So what? That doesn't mean there are no parallels or dichotomies that connect them. Your analysis doesn't hold up because you insist the emotions have to be the exact same...why? That is an entirely arbitrary standard that doesn't make any sense and proves nothing.
Phillips & House: Your response makes little sense based upon my response and what you said in the video. Philips said "It must be good to be home again, Sir" In the video you suggest it makes no sense for him to ask because you assume he knew Red's identity. Now, you are trying to force that statement to be addressing Philip's feelings? That is obviously not what Phillips was saying. The real Redding lived and worked in that general area and it was obviously a reference to that. As I said before you were trying to force a contradiction by forcing an assumption that Philips knew Red was Katarina, now you are backtracking from that but it doesn't seem like you have any idea what your are trying to backtrack to. As for asking if he still considers it home 30 years later, it is just a statement of acknowledging nostalgia it is a rather common reference when someone revisits a part of there past.
As for what happened to Katarina she was living in a house where the father of her child lived with his wife and other child as she was delegated to a servant position. You say these are things that contradict the Redrina theory but they aren't. At most the thing with the house was just never fleshed out, but that is not a "contradiction. And, the Philips thing you are simply all over the place with and it doesn't seem like you know what you mean.
Ballet: It can be metaphoirical and almost certainly is. While, yes the program is certainly suggestive of somehting, there is no confirmation of what exactly that something is. You are forcing that it has to mean there was a plot change towards Redarina. That is not true. Again it could just be something that was never developed, 2 year olds do do ballet and perform (All three of my kids did), and/or it could have been a change in plot that didn't include a switch from the fundamental premise of Reds identity. We do not know what it means, but we Do know is that a Ballet a was chosen, and that it is Specifically Swan Lake, and those themes mirror the Redrina theory. Those are all provable facts that suggest intent. That is far more valid evidence for Redarina than a program that has no conclusion is evidence that there was a switch in plot.
@@Half-FaceCinephile
Giving a simplified analogy of what you are doing.
There are many people who still argue who Red is based on creating a character never addressed in the show and then creating a narrative about that character. They believe this is "proof" based on the fact that the show never specifically refuted this made up narrative.
What you are doing is basically a more sophisticated version of this. Where you take the lack of evidence in early seasons because the show is building the mystery and narratives in the show that are never expounded upon (or not expounded upon until seasons later) and force a singular interpretation through assumptions based upon these normal parts of TV show creation as it built content. You are just creating your own story(fan fiction) in the places the show didn't specifically address.
@@bverji One of the issues I mentioned early in discussing the Redderina theory evidence is the difference between direct and indirect evidence. Things like Reddington saying "Everything about me is a lie" is not direct evidence. There are tons of things he could mean by that, especially since he's becoming a criminal informant in that scene. In fact, if you don't know the Redderina theory beforehand, you would never come to the conclusion that that is what he's saying. I don't dispute that it is indirect evidence, but that is always ex post facto. It's always recontextualized from what it meant at the time. It's why I explicitly avoided that kind of evidence, and why I continue to say that the first direct evidence comes in season 4. It's strange that you would accuse me of not understanding the difference between relevant and irrelevant information when I make this distinction early on, and you are arguing this. And the evidence against is not insignificant.
Medical Units: You're misinterpreting my argument. The argument is that the secret cannot be kept with dozens of people knowing it. Ian Garvey is one single person knowing it and Red burned down the world to stop him from revealing it, but he allows all sorts of strangers know the same information. To use a few cliches: "loose lips sink ships" and "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead." It doesn't matter if they care about him. An innocent bit of gossip can spread to his enemies very quickly, especially since he is surrounded by people who use all kinds of leverage to their personal advantage.
DNA: I never said Anslo Garrick tested his DNA. Watch the episode again. The FBI tests the blood from the Anslo Garrick torture scene and confirms that Reddington had been there, after he was already gone. It's incredibly damning evidence against the Redderina theory.
Cape May: A failed suicide doesn't create the "suicide bombing" effect to which Reddington was referring. And the emotions being different is significant. If Reddington is not Katarina, he is going to Cape May as an apology for not honoring her sacrifice. He is trying to understand what she was feeling when she made that horrifying choice. And he's trying to reconcile his fault in allowing her to make that choice. It is far more meaningful character development than if Reddington is Katarina, especially given the fact that he tries to talk the image of her out of doing it, while he himself is still considering it. The episode is brilliant writing, unless he's Katarina. And I fully admit that the episode being ruined isn't the strongest evidence against the theory; it's more of a personal preference.
Phillips: Um. My point is that Reddington considers DC his home, but Redderina shouldn't. There's no reason for Phillips to bring it up if he doesn't believe it to be true, which means some kind of off-screen before-the-show-starts conversations about having lived in DC. But why would those kinds of conversations take place if Reddington is Katarina? I know it's a small thing, but it's one of dozens, if not hundreds, of contradictions to the theory in Season 1, and it's the first one chronologically.
House: I'm not sure what you mean when you say she was "delegated to a servant position." This was an affair, and in Season 8, the story is fleshed out as much as it can be, that they spent one single weekend there babysitting Jennifer and she felt extremely uncomfortable doing it. My point is that Reddington makes a huge deal about what happened at that house in Season 1, but nothing of import happened there from Katarina's perspective.
Ballet: Sure it can be metaphorical, but the explicit information is always more important than things that derive from interpretation. He pays the same troupe for the same show in the same theater on the same day, which coincides with a program in his hand, and while he's watching, he imagines a girl who cannot possibly be Liz performing. A vague thematic reference to the meaning behind Swan Lake doesn't delete what they showed us. And if it contradicts what we're shown, it is more than likely a bad interpretation. Interpretations must conform to what is shown, not the other way around.
As for what I'm doing, I disagree with your assessment. When looking for contradictions, I prioritize older information, because older information is the establishing information. The Season 1 information being contradicted is evidence that a change in direction was made later on, which is their prerogative, but that doesn't absolve them for making the contradictions. The whole goal of my video was to go through the evidence for Redderina, but also to say that the producers didn't fully think it through when they made the Redderina choice, whenever that might have been, and the story as a whole suffered for it.
@@Half-FaceCinephile
Yes, the point of such evidence is that it is exo facto. If the show gave direct evidence in season one, it would destroy the show's mystery to early. You are proving my point. You are directly confirming that you are disregarding the pattern of indirect evidence and basing your interpretation that there was a change of plot based on the fact there was only such indirect evidence. It is ridiculous to think there would be anything different in a show like The Blacklist because it would give away to much to early.
Medical Units: I am not misrepresenting what you said at all. For dozens of medical people to know he was a women they have to actually find out first. You are again forcing a conclusion based on your assumptions. You are significantly over generalizing who would have to know. Out of all the medical people you claimed in the video that had to know Koehler and Stark were the only ones that had to know. No one else had to have or could have access to Koehler's medical records, and no one need to do a test for gender. Your argument is based on incorrect assumption about how blood tests are done and medical records work.
Ian Garvey was trying to destroy Red, no where near the same thing and doesn't support what you ae trying to claim at all. It in facts hurts your argument because the analogy is extremely forced. Apples and oranges.
DNA: There is nothing noting FBI tested the blood. They go in and see the aftermath of Reds torture and deduce that he was there, but there was no testing of his blood. Later, they are investigating the scene and are labeling things but it is a leap to conclude that they did a DNA test. You never see them collect the blood, they never say anything about doing a blood test and shortly after they find out Red is fine and even had they plan to do one at that point it would have been unnessarly. You claim what you "do is take establishing information as canon" but can you see how when you jump to conclusions and fail to consider other possibilities, that isn't what you are actually doing?
Cape May: Yes, "A failed suicide doesn't create the "suicide bombing" effect to which Reddington was referring." That is part of the point. The show is exploring if you completely change who you were to what degree is that the same thing. You have difficulty interpreting things that aren't literal. The Blacklist is inundated with narrative conventions that give crucial context to what is happening in the story and your analysis for the most part just pretends it doesn't exist.
Your explanation relies on Red not being Katarenia, assumes it is better writing if not katerina without any comparison, and it makes an assumption he goes there as an "apology" which is unsupported and a bit weird (as it isn't usually used as a prescribed context for such a situation in literature)of a conclusion. You are forcing a conclusion. Your response also explains the actions based on your interpretation but fails to actually answer my question of why the emotions being different is significant other than personal preference. Without trying to be snide this is the heart of what I am saying when I claim you are trying to force a conclusion. Once you dig into your analyses, this is what they seem to largly boil down to. Your interpretations are guided by you preferences.
Phillips: My point is that is Philips interpretation not Reds. Philip says that based upon he expects Red to feel some nostalgia for returning home., because he believes Red is returning home. You are arguing this contradictory position where you claim it doesn't matter if Philips knows Red is Katarina or not and claiming there is no reason for him to say it because wouldn't know the real red's history. I don't see the confusion, If Philips doesn't know Red is an imposter, then Philips believes Red is from the DC area because it is expected he knows the history of the man the imposter Red has been impersonating.
House: Katarina stayed at the house as a "nanny/baby sister" I understand your point. I think you are downplaying how a mistress living in the wife's home watching after the wife's child contemplating how her daughter will always be the secret could affect someone, particularly someone established to be as selfish as Katarina. It also works with the theme, this seems obvious when they chose to address that she lived there and felt disturbed about it, the intention was to reconcile this previously unaddressed issue. Admittedly it isn't particularly well fleshed out, but that doesn't make it contradictory. That is often just the reality of television.
Ballet: Explicit information is more important, but narrative conventions provide context about how to interpret the explicit information. You are trying to interpret the "explicit" information while divorcing it from the context of the writer's choice of play, the building of other supporting context, and contrary to claims of people involved in the shows production. By doing that you are again trying to force a conclusion based on evidence that doesn't rule out other possibilities. Your statement about the program existing and likely having some meaning is a fact and that is explicate, but your interpretation of what it means is not explicate it is an opinion and that opinion doesn't work in tandem of the context of the play's inclusion. There are interpretations/situations that aren't contradictory that could work in tandem with the context of the play as well as the claims of the cast. SO you are forcing a conclusion you want to be true as if it is the ONLY option that ignores context and what the cast says to be true. That is not rational it is based on your "preferences."
You are insisting that the evidence that Red was Katarina in seasons 1-4 be concreate when logically it wouldn't be, while failing to hold the evidence supporting your assumption that things changed to the same standard.
All the women he is with in the show are we are supposed to believe he is a woman
Raymond was burned, Katrina was not, he was the man behind the photo. He was a close friend who knew Reddington and Katarina and was there all along. It makes no sense from multiple angles for it to be Katarina. Their builds are not even close to the same and there are no ways to change that.
Katarina and Liz are the only 2 that were confirmed to be burned.
Katarina was not burned when she met Kate at the motel. Certainly not to the extent of Reds injuries shown as scars in season 1.
@@abrahamkohl She is wearing a shirt you have no idea how bad she was burned. There is no sign of Liz being burned nearly as bad as she was as well. Also, burns are on going they can get much worse in the are not treated. It is the heat that damages not the flame. You are placing your subjective interpretation of what you think you saw over what the narrative told the audience happened.
Raymond Reddington was Katarina Restova. I have no doubt about it. Not sure if you all have heard of the director Joe Caranahan. If this does not ring a bell, maybe the movie Smoking Aces does. If neither of these do, I will explain. Smoking Aces was a movie in the mid 2000’s that, among a lot of other things, was about an FBI agent who went under deep cover to become a member of La Cosa Nostra aka the Italian Mafia. This FBI agent was eventually double crossed by the FBI and an attempted hit was put on him. The FBI agent ends up faking his death, getting major plastic surgery and then works his way up the ladder in La Cosa Nostra to become a godfather. I should have said that there was going to be a spoiler alert. If you are smart enough, you would have thought to yourself “This might be the premise of the Blacklist in a way”. To connect what I just said to the name Joe Caranahan, he was actually the director of the pilot of the Blacklist. Put the two together and you have a solid case to back up the fact that the series intended to have a similar premise. A Russian agent who was double crossed by the KGB, assumes the identity of her lover to become a criminal, and then works her way to the top of the criminal empire. This information should give you (gives me more than enough) to have confidence that Restova is Reddington. You would have to ignore all of the information I just gave to think otherwise. Let me know what you all think.
I would make two comments about this: First, the whole scenario works if he's just Reddington. He found out about the cabal and set out to become a formidable enough criminal to infiltrate and destroy it from within. No need for Katarina. And second, the idea of Katarina doesn't come up in the pilot of Blacklist. He says that her mother "died of weakness and shame." There's no tinge of the KGB, much less a betrayal that would result in a sex change to become a criminal (especially since the real Reddington being a criminal barely makes sense to the FBI agents -- he was a rising star in Naval Intelligence and they have no idea why he supposedly turned).
I agree that Reddington is Katarina, but it's more by process of elimination than through good storytelling, in my opinion. There were better options and I still doubt that it was the original plan, as I stated in my video. Thank you for the comment. Smokin' Aces is a great underrated action movie. It has a stellar cast and feels a bit like some of the older Guy Ritchie movies.
Liz killed Real Red Katarina became Red its not that hard to deduce
@@shaun3713 That isn't correct. DNA test for other than ID matching is very hard to get clearance for and to test for gender would require someone to suspect and specifically test for gender. As for medical checkups, a general medical check up would also not reveal someone's gender if they had substantial plastic surgery. The idea that that there would be an exhaustive evaluation is just not how medicine works. You start from the most general and then only further investigate based upon need. Anyone who has ever gotten a blood test should know this. You go in and they do a draw of blood and it say right on the doctor order specifically what the blood is to be tested for. If you go to the doctor you may get a general health examine, but unless you have a complaint or the doctor finds something worry some based on the physical examine there isn't further examinations.
Red is katarina 💯
15:55 This. This has been my biggest opposition to the Reddarina theory. Not only have there been a BUNCH of women as this breakdown explains, but the surgeries to Reddington by Dr. Hans Koehler took place in the early 90's. I'm no trans-operational historian, but I doubt the work done that far back was as good as today. Obviously, this is a fictitious tv show, but suspension of belief has a limited threshold.
There is nothing about being with women that should create opposition. That isn't contradictory in the least. As for the surgeries in the 90's and disbelief...it would be far harder to change someone's appearance to look like a specific person than cosmetically change the look of their gender. It is a selective application of disbelief. Also, regardless of what you accept as your "threshold" that doesn't change the fact that the evidence only supports one conclusion. Your personal "threshold" is not the expected threshold of the show's creators.