TR&CI 130: Subscriber Request - One-Shot Effects Versus Triggered Abilities (How To Break Them)
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- čas přidán 21. 05. 2024
- In this episode of Tough Rules & Cool Interactions, I will be responding to Zaros96's comment from an earlier video. They wanted me to explain the difference between a series of cards that have very similar looking abilities yet when you get into the nitty gritty of it they play out in different ways.
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Rules covered in this episode are:
610.3
Music used in this video:
"Sunset Arthur" by Michael Wyckoff
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#MTG #Magicthegathering #commander - Hry
Dude, why are these videos so entertaining for me to watch? Playing magic is already such a nerdy hobby, and then getting this into the rules of it is more nerdy but it is just so interesting.
When you get really invested into a hobby, it's nice to get a better understanding of the more complex aspects of it.
Elesh Norn is fun for opening up SBA interactions, like letting an eternal witness target itself with its own ETB.
Great video and taught me a new rule 610.3b
Norn is scary, in gameplay and in rules.
So this is what is commonly known as the "Oblivion Ring trick", right?
Yup, though it is a little trickier to do with it being an Enchantment. Sac outlets for creatures are so plentiful.
The old *Faceless Butcher* trick 😉
For the bonus question: if I'm not mistaken, SBAs are checked when a player gets priority, which should happen after the ETB for those creatures goes in the stack. So, I'd say the creature with two triggers should exile the target permanently.
Heck yeah! I loved running FB back in the day, great art. One thing to note about SBAs is that they are checked immediately before any player would gain Priority.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel wizards should make more Nightmare Horror creatures
@@Hanmacx Fore sure, just for the art at least. They always look so dang cool.
Isn't it just the same as earlier. Oh no, this one is tricky, I like that.
It might be similar with one of the creatures but with a little twist. The other creature is very different.
One of the first rules situations I had to explain in a game of magic, I remember. It was with that exact card (Fiend Hunter) too!
BQ: As far as I know, this is what would happen if you played either creature.
Banisher Priest: When the creature resolves, it is put on the battlefield and its ability would trigger and go on the stack and you pick a target as it does (you could desperately try and target the Elesh Norn, in vain). Priority would be given to a player (you, the active player) so the banisher priest is moved to the graveyard since it has toughness
Careful with SBAs and when TAs go to the Stack. TAs have to wait for SBAs to be checked before they enter the Stack, they're in a sort of 'holding zone' as they wait to enter the Stack. I hope this helps out.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel my bad, with the poor wording. Afaik, the ETB abilities would trigger, then the creature would be moved to the graveyard, then the ability would be put on the stack. This is true in both cases. I think the end result is still the same, right? Banisher priest doesn't move Norn and Fiend Hunter could perma-exile her, no? The LTB ability of Fiend Hunter would trigger at the same time as its ETB so you can stack them in the correct order. Banisher follows those one time rules.
@@heitortremor Nailed it!
Just so you know for next time, scull in Tidehollow Sculler should be pronounced like skull. Sculling is a kind of rowing. Not the kind being done in the art, though.
Good to know, thanks. Sadly it's not the cool rowing in the art.
Interesting bonus questions. After fiend hunter resolves triggering its ETB and the tainted aether, it will be sent to the grave by SBA before either trigger is put on the stack, triggering its LTB. You can then place the ETB, LTB, and tainted aether triggers on the stack in any order, making sure to resolve the LTB first so that the elesh norn stays gone. For the banisher priest, the same process happens minus the LTB. This flickers the elesh norn giving them a tainted aether trigger. If they only have one creature and you Armageddon them first, then they'll have to sac elesh norn :)
Ha! I like the mention of Armageddon to force the Norn sac. Gave me a good chuckle. You got the FH and how because of SBAs happening before TAs go to the Stack, so you'll get to pick the order of their resolving. But for the BP, take another look. I can give a hint, it is almost sort of like how Exchanges work in Magic if there isn't a legal thing to exchange when it resolves. I hope that helps out.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Oh so it wouldn't even flicker at all because the one shot event already happened, interesting.
@@masondorseth4731 Exactly! The event doesn't happen because as it is attempting to happen it has already satisfied its own ability and so it never does. It's like a weird thing that you'd see happen in a movie about time travel.
So I have read through some of your replies and I think I have pieced things together, maybe. It sounds like the Fiend Hunter will enter and then immediately die before any ability is added to the stack from it entering, but I'm not entirely sure how it goes from there, because the creature has to enter first before it can die, so part of my mind says that the you have to do the dies trigger first (which is fine cause that's what the desired result is anyways), but I'm not sure if you would actually have a choice in the matter. From the comments here, it sounds like you could order them in a different way. Is that the case?
For the Banisher Priest, I read the comments you made as well and it sounds like that one does NOT actually work as hoped, the hope being that we cause the Elesh Norn to enter again so as to trigger that enchantment making them have to sacrifice something. But I'm not sure why that is.
Well done on putting pieces together and working it out. For the FH, technically yes, the ETB trigger will trigger first and the LTB will trigger after, but when something triggers and when it goes onto the Stack isn't necessarily the same time. You probably saw in the comments I mention a 'waiting zone' and that's because the TAs do have to wait for SBAs to finish what they're doing before they do enter the Stack. Because of that, the ETB and the LTB triggers do go onto the Stack at the same time and that's what does give you the choice to decide what their order is just like when a single event triggers multiple things at the exact same time.
For the BP, correct, it does not have the Norn re-enter the BF, it will never flicker it due to CR 610.3b.
Hah! Topical in Limited - OTJ had quite a few old school cards (Journey to Nowhere, Detention Sphere) that could be abused by the many cheap bounce cards in the set.
For the bonus question, I'd think they don't have similar effects because the SBA applies later. That said, I'm probably wrong here because I'm of the vintage of player where you couldn't pay a sacrifice cost with an object that was headed for the graveyard anyway :)
Yeah, I like those reprint bonus sheets in sets. Nice to keep prices of those older cards down.
so I think the banisher priest effectively flickers elesh norn, which will trigger your tainted aether forcing them to sac a creature or land. They'll probably sac a land though.
That is what seems like would happen, but long story short, it does not sadly. And then for the long story answer, here is the specific CR that covers this: 610.3b. If a resolving triggered ability creates the initial one-shot effect that causes the object to change zones, and the specified event has already occurred before that one-shot effect would occur but after that ability triggered, the object doesn't move.
Man, I don't like this bonus because I don't see the trick. I get the difference between the bonus is that your creatures are dying faster than mentiined earlier in the video, but I don't know how that changes things.
Well, it seems like you do sort of see the trick knowing that this is a bit of a trick. I can give you a hint, it does matter about SBAs and how they are checked 'faster' than TAs entering the Stack.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel That hint does help and I saw your hints to others. I get it, the SBA things all happen earlier or faster and because of that the triggered abilities waited to go to the stack at the same time. Interesting turnout.