International 8 Ball Rules Part 2 - Fouls | Pool School
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- čas přidán 22. 12. 2022
- This is the second video in a series of videos looking at International 8 Ball Rules in pool. In part 2 I talk through how fouls work and look at the ball in hand rule and the fact there are no Total Snookers and no Deliberate fouls. Coming from a World rules background I discuss how this set of pool rules differs and things to be aware of.
The International 8 ball pool rules have now been adpoted by the World Eightball Pool Federation (WEPF) and the English Pool Association (EPA) and is the rule set used in the Ultimate Pool Series. Formerly known as Supreme rules, this rule set was billed as a hybrid of World Rules and Blackball rules. It aims to simplify the rules and brind things closer to the rules played in American 8 ball and Chinese 8 ball.
The shots are carried out on a 7ft Supreme Winner UK 8 ball table
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These videos are going to be sooo helpful to my and other teams in our league. Thank you! For the time and effort you're putting in.
Just leave world rules out of it
Totally agree that it makes it more fast paced, in the pool league I'm in, we've applied to these rules right now and for myself going from playing world rules to international rules took a bit of getting used to, lost our first 4 matches lol, we gone from playing 9 matches to playing 12 matches but still finishing roughly at the same time
Brilliant videos. Looking forward to the next one.
Really helpful - have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year. I'm playing tomorrow with the new rules. I tried them a few days ago and the frames were a lot quicker and more fun,
And to you, good luck.
Thank you for the video. Very helpful. I don’t like reffing at the best of times and in our league this is done by the home side. To save some disputes I would suggest one of two pre shot statements ( or both). 1 the ref could warn the incoming player that if it’s considered he/ she has not made a valid attempt it’s a loss of frame and 2 the player should state the intended route of his shot and which ball he is aiming to hit. Although this is still subject to potential disputes it might make the incoming player think about what he is doing.
We ref our league games in the same way and I do think it is going to be difficult on occasions.
Thanks a lot, waiting for the next video
I'm thinking of learning pool now I'm retired, your school with be so helpful, thanks.
I just found this channel. If you haven't already covered it, you should do so or at least refer to Dr Daves video on double hit fouls. I'm Australian, but living in Thailand. I'm yet to see an Aussie that understands this rule unless he has been exposed to it outside of Australia.
I'm Aussie in Thailand too... But follow Dr Dave. He's great.
Really good clarification on the rules 👍 Quick question is there or has there ever been a forward shot only rule? I play English pool quite a bit with my mates and say for example my opponent pots the cue ball. I would have the cue ball in hand any where behind the baulk line. However they would tell me that the first shot (of the 2 i have) would have to be a forward shot. Forward in reference to playing down the table, as in you place the cue ball but you have to shoot it in a direction to where the 8 ball spot is. has this ever been a rule or just a pub rule? thanks!
Thanks. It’s one of those rules you often hear in a pub. You can play in any direction from Baulk in the International rules, and also in World rules and Blackball rules. It’s possible that it may have been a rules in “old rules” which were in place before world rules were introduced but that was so long ago that I can’t even find those rules anywhere to check.
In the pub where you think it's dear to put another pound in after the black out potted. Just carry on without and the first to finish there colours wins. Unless u eanna be a hassle and ask the bar staff to open the table up to get the 8 ball out again.
Thanks for your post, very informative.
If you opponent uses their ball to pot your ball and clear a pocket is this a delibrate foul and loss of frame in IRs
No it’s just a loss of turn not even a foul. If you watch part 3 which I have just posted, it shows exactly that situation.
Really enjoying your videos. Sorry if I’ve missed it in the description but what cue do you use?
Cheers. Yeah it’s not listed in the description because I didn’t get it online. It’s a “Taylor Made” cue from a maker called Gary Taylor in Basildon.
Can you only play cushion first from a snooker or can you play cushion first in any position as more of a tactical shot if you need to. I know you would still need to hit cushion after first contact but what if you wish to play cushion first?
Yes you can still so that for tactical purposes if you need to.
We haven’t started these rules yet and are still debating whether to stay with the old rules or start international rules one of the things brought up is what are the time constraints for playing your shots ie some people walk around the table for 30 seconds or more before playing a shot whereas others are down and play their shot in less than 15 seconds , is there a time limit for playing shots and what are the consequences , we have had that many rule changes in the past that it is pushing people away from eight ball ( pool)
In the official rules you get 45 seconds per shot. However many competitions and leagues run their own rules on shot clocks. We as a league don’t have time limits on shots as it’s not really viable to ask amateurs reffing their own matches in a pub league to start a clock after every shot.
if the 8 ball is your last ball on the table and your opponent has his ball over the pocket your 8 ball is in line with it can you play a skill shot 8 ball on to your opponents ball followed by the 8 ball to win the game.
Yes you can. Only rules is that the cue ball has to contact the 8 ball first.
Thanks for the videos, really enjoying the channel- Regarding Deliberate fouls - if your opponent is snookered and they have to get out and hit a cushion but you feel they have made a weak attempt or not tried to get out of the snooker, leaving you in a poor situation, is that allowed or is it deemed a deliberate foul and loss of frame, who makes that decision?
Cheers. It’s a tricky one and it’s the refs decision (if you have one). As long as they have made a “reasonable attempt” then it is fine. What is classed as a “reasonable attempt” however is open to debate. The ref needs to consider the ability of the player and try to ascertain whether they have “deliberately” come up short or missed to give them an advantage. Just not escaping the snooker is not a deliberate foul. Hitting the cue ball a couple of inches when you need to go the length of the table would be considered “deliberate”. It’s where you draw the line that is very hard to quantify!
Great video , we re rack , then re break , 2 shots ? Superb videos by the way . Merry Christmas
My understanding on re-racks is that the break is simply passed over to the opponent. Generally, having the break is considered advantage enough in International.
I may be wrong, but this is how I've always been informed.
Yes there are never 2 shots in International rules.
I thought in world rules you could move the white if you got foul snookered which is what you showed if you have to hit a cushion after contact, I also didnt know you had to hit a cushion in world rules I thought that was just black ball rules and international.
Just wondering about the touching ball in world rules if the white ball is touching your ball, the cue ball just needs to touch a cushion, what's the ruling on that on international rules
It’s the same. As you have effectively already contacted your ball you can play away directly to a cushion. As long as you play away you can also play for another object ball (of either colour) as long as something hits the cushion or is potted. So you could for example pot an opponents ball if it was causing you problems. This wouldn’t be a foul simply a loss of turn shot.
If the cue ball is potted on break then the ball has to be played from the baulk by the opposite team. Now, if the table is open and I foul/scratch, does the opposite team get the ball in hand from anywhere on the table or from the baulk in international rules?
From anywhere on the table it only behind the baulk line when scratching from the break shot.
When you have ball in hand and deciding where to place it, can you move it around after placing it? If you change your mind before taking the shot?
Yes its no different than placing the ball after going in off. It’s not a case that as soon as it touches the table you can’t adjust it.
Thank you. These videos are very well presented, detailed and surely very helpful. May I please ask what happens i.e., is the frame lost if, I don't have any other balls than the black, my opponent has 1 ball left. I play on the black an pot it but with it, I pot my opponent's last ball in a combination shot. Do I lose the frame or win it?
Thank you. As long as you contact the black with the cue ball first, it doesn’t matter what happens to your opponents ball, so you would win the frame.
@@PoolSchool Thank you so much for your immediate response. We are still getting to grips with the 8 ball International rules and hence, if you don't mind, we will be coming back to you with our difficulties to better understand what to do. Thank you from MALTA.
What is the ruling, I’m on the black which is over the pocket, which is covered by my opponents ball, I can’t hit black without hitting opponents ball 1st, what is the rule..??
If you can’t make a legal shot it is a stalemate and a re-rack
What ball needs to hit the rail after hitting the object ball?? Is it: (a) either that particular object ball or the cue ball
Or (b) any ball at all on the table
Any ball on the table. The only time a ball doesn’t have to hit a cushion is if you pot.
Hi just wondering when part 3 will be for international rules please
Should be next week.
If you are snookered, you play the white ball firmly and strike your object ball and both have sufficient speed after contact to hit the cushion but are prevented from doing so by other balls on the table. Is this still a foul?
Yes it’s still a foul.
Do you have any info on a loss of turn shot this can be confusing ?
It will be in part 3 when I talk about combination shots
Where you talk about playing a deliberate foul in WR at about 7:30, you're right that you can legit play a deliberate foul, but in the scenario you describe, the incoming player would still be able to move the cueball to baulk or nominate another ball for their first visit, because they are foul snookered. Check the World Rules doc, section P relating to "foul snookers". As you correctly say though if playing International rules, you would not be allowed to play the deliberate foul. Even if it was an accidental foul, you'd get ball in hand playing International rules, making the need to have a "foul snookers" section in the rules completely irrelevant. This is just another example of why International rules are better as far as I'm concerned. Thanks as always for the videos, and have a great Christmas!
In the section you are describing, it is the yellow player rolling up behind the red. So the incoming player is in red so it’s not a foul snooker as they can see their ball. They’re just tight up against it so can’t do anything with their first shot.
You’re right though, intentional rules means none of this can happen which is better in my opinion.
@@PoolSchool I stand corrected, you're right - hadn't realised you were playing behind your own colour group with the deliberate foul!
So after the cue ball hits an object ball, does the cue ball have to hit a cushion, an object ball or either?
Either, unless a ball is potted.
@@PoolSchool kool
So if in total snooker and the player doesn't hit a cushion... is it ball in hand?
Yes it's as it's a foul.
Great video thanx! *Big mistake though about the WORLD rules which needs to be corrected. In the situation where my opponent fouls deliberately or not and i can't see and shot fully (both sides) at least one of my balls then it's considered a 'foul snooker' and i can either take the cue ball and place it anywhere behind the line and play my two shots, either nominating one of my opponent's ball for my first shot (freeball) where basically it becomes mine and if i pot it i continue with two shots👍
Thanks. Yes I know that but I think you have misread what I am describing here. I am tucking up behind the red, as the yellow player. That means I have deliberately fouled as I didn't hit a cushion but it is not a foul snooker because the red player "Can" see both sides of the red ball. The whole point is to sort of negate the red players first shot as they have nothing on when tucked up behind their own ball.
@@PoolSchool yes you are right, i didn't notice😅 Anyway, in Cyprus where i am from we are still playing by the world rules (famagusta city), but as from next year we are switching to the international ones, so i'd love to see more videos about them!
The league I play in has just adopted these rules and our season starts next week. I’m excited to try them! My only concern is if a player is good enough to deliberately foul by not hitting their ball but make it look like a genuine attempt, will the umpire notice?
It's definitely going to be an issue in my opinion.
That's what we also struggle with, becuase sometimes you never know when someone make foul with intentions
I am left with only 8 ball and pot it but i touch opponent ball first is it a faul or lost game
Loss of frame
thanks for making these videos. I've been looking for something like this to show to players in our association to get them to change to these new international rules.
to be slightly critical though -
I think you could improve these greatly by planning out what you are going to talk about a little more as to be a little less confusing.
ie maybe one 20 minute video -
* this is a one shot ball in hand game
* if you hit your ball first and pot your opponents ball it's not a foul but it is pass of turn
* if you hit your ball first, pot one of your balls and also pot an opponents ball it's not a foul and you keep shooting
etc etc
big picture stuff first then move to the detail (and maybe even some ramifications / strategy)
just some advice.
again, thanks for doing these
Maybe I missed it but if youre playing English 8 ball pool (two shots for foul) and youre still snookered no matter where behind the baulk line you put the ball, what's the solution?
I’m not playing those rules here, this is international rules so you don’t have two shots, you have ball in hand anywhere on the table.
If you have the situation you describe in world rules, then you are allowed to nominate one of your opponents balls as one of your own.
@@PoolSchool Sounds like world rules has a fair solution 👍
Not related to international rules but do you have to nominate the black in world and blackball rules?
No you don't
@PoolSchool Thanks mate, all the different sets starts to blend into one. Keep up the good work 👏
World, International, and Black ball rules. . . .which one is the best ?
I’ve only played World & International but definitely prefer International.
Is push shot a loss of frame in international rules?
No just a standard foul
Any vids on the stalemate rule
I don't I'm afraid. It's fairly straight forward though:
**6g Stalemate situation**
If any situation arises whereby a ‘legal shot’ (see Rule 6e(12)) cannot be played, It is a player's responsibility to ask for a stalemate.
If the referee (or opponent - if no referee) confirms a stalemate, the frame shall be restarted with a re-rack. The player who
originally broke will restart the re-racked frame. If no stalemate is confirmed, the players must continue their visit.
What rule set recognises the 'golden break'?
I thought ultimate played this?
Thanks
The "golden break" and "golden duck" are not in the standard rule set for international rules but some competitions (like those on ultimate pool) add them as "tournament specific" rules.
@@PoolSchool I get you! Similar I guess to the 6 ball shoot out to decide a tie.
Exactly
So what happens if someone plays a deliberate foul. So they get 2 visits or ball in hand.
Deliberate fouls are not allowed in international rules and it would be loss of frame.
What if you miss your ball and hit the opponents ball by accident? Is this just foul ball in hand?
Yes
don't you need at least hit own color on 1st shot? after deliberate foul or actually allowed just hit cushion and continue . only ask as i normally call it foul
I’m sorry I don’t quite understand your question? It’s sounds as though you might be confusing different rule sets? There are several different sets of rules.
If the opponent does a foul. Is it mandatory for me to take the white ball in hand.
Technically I think the answer is yes but I have seen big debates about this. The rules says “ball in hand” so the ref would pass you the ball. There is nothing to stop you putting it back in the same spot though.
Scenario...
Player A breaks and the black is potted, with 2 other balls passing the centre imaginary line.
By the 3 point rule this is a legal break.
Because the black ball was potted on the break, it is re-spotted.
Does Player A continue at the table because the black ball was potted?
@1:40
No you need to pot a red or a yellow. As the previous comment says I explain that at 1:40
Thank you.
For some reason my comment attached itself to this video and not Part 1.
Cheers.
Couple years ago, some British guys came over to a bar in my country to play some pool, where we play the international rule. They had no clue what international rule is and thought we cheated. They called us cheaters and we ended up with a brawl in the bar 🤦🏻♂️
Most English people play their own pub rules which seem.to be a variant of the "world rules". 2 shots on a foul, pot the white it's behind the line etc. I have started playing pool as a keen beginner in the last 18 months and didn't even realise there were so many variations in rules from country to country and even pub to pub.
Best to establish the rules before hand to avoid any fights.
A lot of English pubs got rid of their pool tables due to violence and cues and balls being used as a weapon. Shame but that's just the English mentality I guess.
Hi been following your channel for a long time and I think this is probably the trickiest subject for you to cover. My question is this as a few have asked me. What and how in a match would you say is a valid attempt to get out of a snooker before the ref calls it a loss of frame. What if a player mis cues when trying to escape the snooker and hits his opponents ball. Is that a loss of frame foul? I can see lots of arguments over this one. Plus I agree with the comment about not comparing to world rules as this does confuse the matter even though you mean well. Great video
I’ll be honest with you I’m not 100% sure myself and it’s also something I’ve been trying to find more guidance on (unsuccessfully so far). I would have thought common sense plays a big part and a player mis-cueing is clearly not a “deliberate” attempt to not get out of a snooker. The same goes for coming off a cushion or two and narrowly missing your intended target. Where I think it gets muddy is if you attempted a more elaborate escape that didn’t come off, when perhaps there was an easier escape but one that might result in a less favourable position. Are you punished for not taking the easier option? My current interpretation is that it is more aimed at the type of deliberate foul that gives you an advantage (like the roll up example) rather than unsuccessfully escaping a snooker. Like you though I can see lots of uncertainty and arguments at lower levels when games are not refereed by professionals.
Sorry if the reference to World Rules is confusing. I’m trying to help many that may be switching from one rule set to another understand the differences, but appreciate that if you’re not coming from WR it could be confusing.
I am attending a referring seminar in early January run by the Epra in Stoke where I will hope to get a better understanding to these points myself. I play World rules and bb rules but I think this new set should be easier once we give them time. Like you mentioned at lower league levels there will im sure be some confusion and disagreement. Hopefully short lived. Our county is having some sessions to get used yo the new set. Il let you know how I get on. You could always email ultimate pool for some guidance. It's on their app if you have it. Thanks Lee
My take is if your snookered and you come of a cushion and come short on your ball then that should be a loss of frame because it’s clear that you are making no attempt to hit a cushion after the white hits the object bal. However others might see it differently. It’s something we are discussing in my local club. It will probably take awhile to get these answers. I think they will only come from top players playing and referees decisions in those matches.
Great content 👍🎱
Absolutely, I’m going to see if I can get some clarification from a professional referee as there are definitely some areas that are open to “interpretation”. Generally I like the rule set, but not seen enough of it yet to fully know all these intricacies. I was a little unsure about even making this series but lots of people were asking for it. Hopefully I can give an overview and then clear up the finer points as I get clarification.
We had a situation in our club last night where it was a doubles game. We had the black over the pocket bottom left as you look from the baulk end. Other team played their last red towards our black leaving the red next to black and white next to the red. So all 3 balls on bottom rail. So we were snookered well and truly. But there was a gap to hit the black by playing up and down the table. Anyway our player came to rest 2 inches short from the black. From this a debate occurred where he said. Well I've made a reasonable attempt to hit the black. They argued otherwise. So if that shot was deemed OK the opponents had ball in hand with an almost impossible chance with 1 shot to A, get their red out and potting it and B, not potting the black at the same time. Even if by miracle both balls were potted the skill shot in this instance is not allowed for the player or players on their last colour. Phew hope that makes sense.
If you’re on black and your opponent has 2 of his colours covering black in jaws of pocket. So you can’t legally hit black?
It’s a stalemate and a re-rack
First🥇
Pocketing the black ball off the break is an automatic loss in 8 ball. That should always be the rule, imo. If you make the 8-ball before making all your object balls, thats a loss. The 8 ball represents the winning and losing ball.
Not in international rules, or World rules or Blackball rules either. In international rules the black is re spotted (as long as the rest of the break is legal) and in World rules and blackball rules it is a re-rack. There are some variations played in various tournaments where potting the black off the break is actually a win (golden break). Personally I feel that potting the black off the break doesn’t involve any skill and is therefore luck or bad luck depending on what rules you are playing. Being awarded a frame for potting it is unfair and equally, losing a frame for potting it is also unfair. I therefore think international rules version where the black is re-spotted is the fairest.
At 7 minutes 40 seconds into video you comment about rolling the white ball up behind the red to snooker an opponent. My understanding in World rules is that shot is an illegal shot/foul shot because a ball did not hit a cushion. In that instance you declare it as a foul snooker. If the referee agrees then you have to options. 1 you can nominate an opponent’s ball and play it, potting it if you like to retain your 2 shots or 2 request to pick up the white ball and play it from behind the baulk line.
In international rules I can’t understand why rolling the white up behind the red should be loss of game. Same situation, it’s a foul shot so the opponent can pick up the white ball and place it where ever they like, they’re not disadvantage by this shot.
Sorry I obviously didn’t explain this clearly as others have said the same thing. I’m not talking about rolling up to the red to snooker the yellows, I’m talking about the yellow player (who is already snookered), just rolling up to the red. It is a deliberate foul because nothing hit a cushion. The red player has two shots but they are not snookered on their red so can’t move the cue ball. It means that they are forced to waste the first shot, as there is nothing on. I hope that makes sense?
Hate the idea is the loss of total snooker.
So where the hell did the rules we all know about come from? 2 shots, but 1 on the black or the "2 shots no carry" which basically means a free shot. What about "open table". What about naming the pocket for the 8 ball? I've never ever played any one at the pub etc that plays world or international rules. Or correct rules for that matter.
Unfortunately that is one of the issues with there being several rule sets. Some of those you mention come from the “old rules” which preceded World rules but many are things just passed from one pub goer to another, and often completely incorrect. Unfortunately people playing a casual game in the pub are never going to play by “the rules” there will always be someone telling you something is or isn’t a foul. Maybe one day if everyone adopted the same rule set we might get to a point where everyone knows “the rules” but I think it’s unlikely!
At 8:17 "a deliberate foul is loss of game". Are you sure?
Yes it is.
6f Loss of frame fouls
(1) Deliberately not playing a ball from his/her own group first, or an “on” ball after a foul.
(2) Unsporting behaviour / bringing the game into disrepute. Including but not exclusive to:
(a) Foul language OR
(b) Throwing a cue around / unscrewing as if to concede OR
(c) Continually arguing with the referee or opponent OR
(d) Interfering when the opponent is on the shot either verbally or physically.
(3) Committing a foul in the same shot that the eight ball is potted. (Except on the break)
(4) Potting the eight ball when a ball or balls of the player's own group are still on the table. (Except on the Break) Including potting last group ball and eight ball in same shot.
(5) A player who clearly and intentionally fails to make an attempt to play a ball(s) of his/her own group.
(6) Intentionally positioning the cue ball in hand after a foul to create a re-rack situation.
Who decides it’s a ‘deliberate foul’ in the boozer ?
The sober one! 😉
good question.
while I think the international are an improvement on world rules, this will be a problem
@@PoolSchool That’ll be me then as I don’t drink…..’there could be trouble ahead’ 😆
@@haydenwalton2766 I think International rules is just to make it more appealing for television audiences. Trying to raise the prestige of the game…I personally like world rules and they’re well supported at national finals….why change.
@@gozitan5 another good question !
I suppose they want to speed up the game.
I like world rules as well, although I've always liked the idea of one shot, ball in hand
💥 *PromoSM*
Please just speak about international. N not confuse me with referencing the world rules.
Leave the world rules out of it don't won't to know about world rules we wont to know international rules
Love the videos but please stop referring to Wrs when explaining IR it’s very confusing pal 😊Just speak about IR rules and keep it simple 😊
Sorry if it’s confusing. As well as describing the rule set i’m trying to help many players (like myself) who are switching from one rule set to another and it’s important to understand the differences. However I appreciate that if you don’t play that rule set it could be confusing. It would great if one day we could just play one set of rules and then everything would be much simpler!!
@@PoolSchool Yes I play all rule sets
Bb
Wr
IR rules aswell just thought it would be easier for people pal.Keep up with the great videos tho 😊
@@PoolSchoolagreed, never understood having different sets of rules for one game, in my home town most pubs play the same rules but go out of town and it's different.
If you pot the black/8 ball off the break, you win the frame, surly 👍
Only if that is the rule for the particular competition you are playing in. It’s not the rule in the standard rule set, the black is simply re-spotted. They add the golden break rule to some televised competitions etc to add a bit of extra drama.
@Pool School arh, I see, didn't know that.
The league I play in is trying it out for this upcoming summer league, which is going to include the golden break, not sure about a time clock 🤔
Have you any tips you could pass on, I'm currently playing black ball and world rules. Thanks in advance 👍
I’ve just made a video that shows a few games and scenarios played under international rules that might help? International Pool Rules Games - Pool Tutorial | Pool School
czcams.com/video/r0i6wUVPSv8/video.html