Stairway to Selfhood: Life After Detransition | with Elle Palmer
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- čas přidán 19. 08. 2024
- Part of a series: bit.ly/DeTrans...
@ellepalmer came out on youtube as a detransitioner in early 2020. In this calmversation we discuss her thoughts on childhood trauma, abandonment, anxiety, and how those fed into a trans identity.
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I had a friend when I was in high school back in the 70s, whose dad took her off to Hawaii for a year and let her just have fun without going to school. Then she came back and did well. I always thought that was so caring and wise. More adults need to just listen to teenagers and give them compassion and caring and fun.
My sister went in high school for an exchange year abroad. Even though she attended school there, it still felt kind of like a vacation, and also she did absolute minimum at school there because for other reasons (due to the specific program she had at her original school) it couldn't be recognized anyway, so basically it was like a vacation and getting to know the new culture and brush up on the language 🙃.
She was still learning. It's called unschooling.
When Elle said it was the "trans" part of her identity she related to the most, that reminds me of my teen friend who says she has friends who have "detransitioned but are still trans." Obviously that doesn't make any sense unless you understand what this ideology means to them. The transformation is gnostic, spiritual, and then there's a performative layer, and then medicalizing layer. But those are like deeper layers that don't necessarily compromise on the trans identity, which is the most important part of staying within the circle.
It would be reassuring if the movement could just wind things back to this first layer where the harm could be minimized but sadly I've been hearing about their disturbing desire to push for those deeper layers as a means of affirming their identity / belief. In having listened to these accounts, I've suspected that their plans to push to the next layer may be something they really don't want to do, in fact it may be wrenching at their soul, but perhaps that is what makes it a SELF SACRIFICE, which is a such a strong religious instinct. See Jordan Peterson's many many takes on Cain and Abel for what happens to the person who sacrifices everything but doesn't get rewarded by God. What comes flooding in once the sacrifice is rejected? Is it self reflection, despair, or a desire to destroy their ideal?
That's what makes stories like Elle's, where she makes the pilgrimage and comes back disillusioned so damn important as unfortunately we need the honest accounts of unfortunate souls to show us where the pitfalls lie. Sorry for all the religious language but it just fits so perfectly to me.
Blessed comment
what does your friend mean by that? i find that really interesting. does she mean they've stopped medicalisation? or does she mean they've gone back to being referred to as their sex but see that as a type of second transition? or something else?
@@LightSpell28 She was talking about hormones, specifically. She said there were NO dangers with them, and I mean literally none, that her friends could take them or leave them as they pleased, and when they decided it wasn't for them, they were still apparently trans. I don't know how many of them did this, but she has a large real life friends group and a lot of them are into this. There was more to it when it came to her own intentions but I'm hesitant to discuss it here since it gets a bit personal. But I can add that she took me off guard with how breezy she was with it all and I can only put it down to being really well walled off from hearing about any of the downsides.
@@questor55 yeah, Ive heard its sort of an open secret among the trans men who are a bit older that a lot go off testosterone because of side effects and they're okay with their appearance. This seems like a more extreme version of that, similar to the way the lesbian app HER had advertisements for "microdosing" testosterone.
Such an insightful comment. They are looking for stories, identity and belonging. The sacrifice is unfortunately being sold as worthy, they are children, they believe...
What Elle recalls about her feelings around sex is a real thing for women and it is not abnormal!! It is not necessary to find a trauma or a reason for that fear. It is biologically embedded! Sex for a woman is dangerous and it's normal for a young woman to avoid it.
Of course some other women experience less anxiety or fear about it- there's variation in nature - this doesn't make them less normal either! Men will probably never understand this shyness of women. Women need to feel safe and trust to have their libido going! Especially young women. But yes, her experiences online have only added on that natural inborn fear.
I feel angry at people /society pushing ideas on to young women, that they must feel comfortable with sex and if they don't there's something wrong with them. No there's NOT.
Very true! It used to be 'common wisdom,' women need more emotional security and a sense of safety. We aren't the same as men, and our sexuality is also innately different from men's.
@@joane24 and she has not yet been reassured by anyone about that because she was searching for a reason or an excuse to justify herself as to why she was avoiding sex! The ideas pushed by more liberal people (some with evil intention) seem to be internalised in her😢 the importance of mentorship for the young sounds more urgent by the hour.
@@joane24 And that is the key right there. Feminism, and other gobbledygook indoctrinated young women to think they are NOT different than men in any way.
Its such a total lie, it totally screws them up.
Absolutely! And until not so very long ago, the ideal of abstinence till marriage - or at the very least until full adulthood and a committed relationship- wasn’t confined to strict church cultures but was yet another example of common wisdom, safety, and self respect. (And not, as it is so regularly parodied as being, a symptom of neurosis, disphoria, or fanatiscism.)
Her story was one of the first things that peaked me and made me question if absolutely everyone with dysphoria should transition. Glad she’s doing okay.
She is beautiful
God Have Mercy
I agree --- She is beautiful ❤️
I used to watch Elle, and wondered what happened to her after her videos stopped. I'm so happy to see her doing well!
She still posts videos
@@uteruspower1862 weird I tried to look for her a while back and couldn't find her channel
It seems like spending more time in childhood interacting with nature and a little less time battling the perceptions of others online could have helped many of these kids avoid such a physically an emotionally tough journey. How she talks about being fascinated by mushrooms- watching and learning how they grow and the joy of being able to find them anywhere if you take the time to look is so childlike- not in an immature way but in the way that is relatable and sort of innocent- finding joy in the little things. Spending time in nature can make you love your body for the things it lets you do and explore and experience instead of wanting to escape you body due to how appearance/sex dictates how you are treated and perceived by others on the internet in particular.
This interview makes me reflect a lot- I'm around Elle's age- was a messy, "neurodivergent" tomboy type girl- but raised pretty offline (so grateful for my hippy mom
hell yeah i love learning about mushrooms!
I had the good fortune to work in an elementary school in a rough area for a year in the 80s serving free lunches to the entire school. The food was catered & was so delicious. It was adorable watching the kids complain about the food with huge smiles on their faces. Fed their bellies but it fed my soul because my “day job” was being a nanny for an awful family with a spoiled brat child who I couldn’t discipline by taking away any privileges or even talking to her sternly because it wasn’t allowed. I’ve always wondered why they hired me.
It was so nice dropping her off at her private school every morning & heading to the hood to do something worthwhile. 💜
Well, those parents sure knew exactly how to raise a miserable adult.
Maybe we should have a Bad Parents trophy.
Most grateful for this beautiful strong post. Love to Elle and cats.
1. At first there were many transitioners on CZcams, then there were many detransitioners, mostly different people. Post transition situations seem to vary considerably.
There tends to be a lack of conversations between detransitioners and those who stay transitioned.
2. In general there should be far more focus on the practical. It would help all round. This is now happening.
Detransitioning seems a fairly new experience on a large scale. I am on the side of whatever works and is good including desistance.
The following seem questions that are being answered over time:
What variety of things work for those who have transitioned, for those who stay transitioned and for those who detransition ?
What helps people who have chosen to detransition to do so ?
What are the challenges of detransitioning ?
Are there aspects of detransitioning that make it so difficult for some people that it makes it for some not possible or close to not possible to detransition, i e is it possible for everyone who has transitioned to detransition ?
3. If some anti trans campaigners and some churches, for example, tried to make detransitioning compulsory, that would be going too far.
The reason there are so many "detransitioners" is because of the "affirmation only" cult mentality. It's so tragic, and no good reason at all for this to be happening.
We have very experienced doctors who know how to help people get through their tough confusion.
Her videos have been popping into my recommended for the last few years and I would watch them. I found her videos very captivating about what she was going through.
A lovely conversation with a compassionate and down-to-earth young woman. May all your foraging be fruitful, Elle 🍄❤
You are looking great Elle! Good to see you doing well.
Elle getting those gold stars for the reading workbook set the stage for her love of paperwork today 😂⭐
i love this comment hahahah
Go Elle!
I watched her CZcams regularly.
I remember seeing her video on r/detrans years ago when she posted it. At the time, she seemed like an anomaly. The detrans sub was not very active. So much has changed in just a few years.
Dearest Ben. I’m sure it would be a difficult task finding parents willing to speak about their child’s transition, if they detransitioned. How it impacted their family as a whole and so on. I think it would shed an important light on figures (parents) that seem to be forgotten in all this mess. Lots of love ❤❤❤
Hi ben, would you consider doing interviews with parents to put on the record what it's like for them and for kids to see what their parents go through?
Tell Elle to check out this woman:
Michelle’s memoir, Forager: Field Notes on Surviving a Family Cult, showcases her life growing up on an isolated mountain in California as part of an apocalyptic cult and how she found her way out of poverty and illness by drawing on the gifts of the wilderness.
that sounds amazing! i’ll read it!
Love Elle!
Love your voice Benjamin, you're compassionate.
She has a lovely soul😊
Elle, you have a really nice voice, very pleasant to listen to.
Elle you do have light around you. It will always be there, even during the darkest times. I’ve seen many of your videos & was so happy to see you doing an interview with Benjamin. I bet Buck Angel would love to interview you 😉 thank you for being so vulnerable & open. Your story will make a difference. I wish you the best & hope you make it to the west coast. 😊 🖤
Happy Birthday 🎉
Great conversations on here!! You are one of a kind! Gotta say I find this cultural/social phenomenon so… unhealthy. What is happening to adults?? I mean I live in the capital of a city in a European country. My daugher and her friends go to fine schools and colleges and are all doing fine. Nothing odd or special about them, their education, or lives. They hang out and the do drink together sometimes. Not one of them had sex before 17. Not one of them were even remotely interested in having sex when they were 14, 15 year old children. Nor did they appreciate being sexualized or approached by boys, let alone men, in a disrespectful manner. There was zero tolerance of those kinds of interaction in school and in public. What happened to our youth?? I saw a summery of what went down when a tv show here revealed how atrocious the gender affirming “care” has been here to a number of young girls. How their parents were lulled to sleep by assertive health professionals. What used to be a very positive force in our society, the association for sexual equality, shamed and attacked the very objective and measured journalism in the series. Wokeness at its worst. BUT the government and parliament and administrative bodys involved did take action. Pause. Research. Brakes are on. Still waiting for serious appologies from “health care” units and hospitals that used our children as ginneapigs in a manner totally atypical of the health care tradition and focus on childrens rights and well being in this country. Only in the case of the naïveté and failure to protect young victims of “pride/shame crimes” can I think of a parallel here. Luckily I do feel the tide is turning here. What is chocking is the cultlike virtue signalling. These interviews make me cry with frustration and sadness. How did we let this go on????
I find interesting when Elle said that feminism focuses to much on the negative part.
I think that needs to change.
To create spaces where female energy and ideas are exchanged.
I think this is very hard to create in a patriarchal organised society.
I saw it very easily happening in matriarchal environments.
Like native Americans are such matriarchal men's where women have their own space and are highly respected, and listened to.
I find so many detransitioners who are female saying that they found it unacceptable to be a female in this world.
That we all have to think about this, why so many girls do such things , to escape being female.
Why are women and girls not respectful treated
Patriarchal society is also the cause of femizide. We know this.
And still we want to hold onto this social system.
Why?
Because we think that otherwise the women want to rule thd men?
No, women do things diffrent.
Everyone has a space there.
It is not the opposite of patriarchy.
It is very different organised.
Thanks ❤
It's sad people must go through this so the next generation can learn from it. It's like an awful experiment. God bless you and hope you continue to be happy.
Loki is a good name for a cat, lol
Negotiating feminity and masculinity. Fantastic. Great body of work.
I love your cats 🐈
You have a lovely voice Elle
Sounds like princess Vespa singing voice..
Try crowdfunding the startup of your org!
Also love AmeriCorps
Such a beauty!!!!
Benjamin, I am reaching out with a specific question. I am a storytelling coach ( in the field since the 90's) who has started working completely pro bono with people who are detransitioning. I do this because a young person in my family is captured and my hands and tongue are tied until this situation resolves, so THIS is something meaningful I can do. I currently work with a mutual acquaintance. I support the writer/storyteller in the creation of whatever story in whatever genre they choose. ( Not just "transition stories) I do this work because I believe in the transformative impact of finding, shaping, and communicating our stories. These particular workshops are for detransitioners only, and therefore I must "vet" participants carefully. My question: if I introduced myself to you, share the name of our mutual friend so you can vet me, would you be interested or willing to privately share my offer to the detransitioners in your network? This is a free offer and will remain free. There are no strings attached.
And, Elle, you would be welcome to attend any of my weekly zoom writing groups. I offer a lot of support, accountability, and inspiration.
@@kp6541 That's really cool. I took a storytelling class back in the 90's, at our local JC. It was a blast!
Elle discussing the need for detrans support groups made me wonder if the 12-step model could be a useful framework to adapt? Admittedly I haven't thought about it for longer than a couple of minutes, but it seems an idea worth exploring further
To clarify, I'm not comparing transition to a substance addiction, but there are definitely useful parallels in terms of an individual's path to recovery and how a network of grassroots support groups can be organised
Apparently the 12 step program has been adapted also to other things, not only other types of addictions but also non-addictions, such as healing from trauma for example. Don't know any other details or if it's successful. But it seems like it potentially might be something worth exploring?
Very interesting I can't help but think that the massive size schools in the US are damaging for kids at very least up to middle school. IE lost in the system that you do not really connect
Yes, I taught in schools from 350 to 1300. Definitely the ones around 800 to 850, maximised student subject choice options and friendship choices. Over 850, so depersonalised for staff and students. High schools.
💥💥💥💥💥
❤
Benjamin, thanks for this interview - interesting as usual. May I also suggest, given much you are looking at is tied in with the main foundations of 'Woke', that you could do no better than get Norman Finkelstein on your podcast, who, in his latest book ain't happy with woke, actually, he's more brutal than that, hence great value and highly informative for your audience.
Raised on the internet
Wow.
Hey Benjamin! Did you say you were moving? Is this your new place?
It's interesting/disturbing that some want to be "trans" rather than be a man or woman.
Why do 'they' say only 1% detransition ? There are many many detransitioners.
Her voice is more feminine than two/three years ago.
? It's the "Dalek" voice, which makes these poor women instantly recognizable.
You are a beautiful woman elle
Sorry but where were Elle’s parents when she was watching porn on the internet at 8 years old?!!! 😣 my nephew is totally messed up now at the age of 22 because he was given a laptop at 9 and allowed to stay in his bedroom for hours on end and you know what he was watching. Now he struggles with social anxiety and has not had any relationships only online.
We shouldn’t let kids transition ok you mean like get the therapy or dress as the opposite gender
I was 27 before I decided I wanted a family. It was like a baby switch went off in my brain and body.
Neither until 16. I think at 16 they should follow the UK model where after 16 if you complain about Dysphoria for 24 months , you have to have 6 months therapy by non Gender Affirming therapists (neutral therapy). THEN, you have another 2 year period where if you STILL claim Dysphoria, you can put your name down for surgery.
Even that is. .. worrying
@@realMaverickBuckley I’m from the U.K. so I’m aware and as far as I’m aware that’s what happens in us as well
@@carolynbrightfield8911 having children isn’t the same as knowing you are the wrong gender
It is rhetorically chaotic because even the opposition can't agree on this. There are some who support social transitioning with no caveats, there are some who support social transitioning as a therapeutic tool to eventually be weaned off, there are some who would prefer all talk therapy and no social transitioning.
Some people are fine with subverting gender norms and don't see gender exploration as a trans phenomenon, and so even the anti-social transition camp would still support these people because they haven't "transitioned" (in the proper religious sense that trans people mean when they say that). The more conservative side would say that gender norms are an ethical duty to observe (Matt Walsh has made this argument) and that any trans identity, even social transition, is a form of running away from your responsibility.
Her parents failed her big time letting her on the internet without supervision
"Internet without supervision" is putting it mildly! All damn day online.
Elle doesn't really get into it except in saying that she was mentally able to detransition within a couple weeks of leaving home, but it sounds like in general her home life wasn't conducive to wellbeing.
She seems on the spectrum.
Can you please dont breath that hard in front 9f the microphone is annoying
Poor girl her voice is ruined , she will never sing again
Elle said she struggles with anxiety and panic attacks. I found these people to be helpful: “DARE” CZcams channel
m.czcams.com/video/IIvq8mxvwMk/video.html
Shaan Kassam
m.youtube.com/@anxiety_recovery