Cloud Camera Breach Fallout: More Forced Arbitration 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
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- čas přidán 2. 04. 2024
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What timing. Just bought a security camera (not naming names) that promised it would work without an internet connection, just through PoE to my local network. Installed it, blocked its IP in my router from accessing the internet… "This device cannot access our authentication servers. Internet access is required for initial setup." Wireshark tracked the outgoing packets to a US IP addressed server that, to my knowledge, has no affiliation with the camera brand (maybe they're just renting server space there, but I don't care; I don't want my camera communicating with any, let alone foreign⁽¹⁾, servers).
Packed it up and it's back on its way to Amazon. Glad I tested it out before running ethernet cables everywhere.
(1): I live in Germany. If you're a US citizen, just imagine your camera sending data to taiwanese servers. And besides, be honest, do you trust your data to be secure on a US server?
If it names an IP to connect to, then all you need to break into those servers is to MIMA on yourself. Then just sniff around for any known public privilege escalation. Boom, servers hacked
I bought a DJI Action Osmo 4k. It is a portable, semi-ruggedized camera, with a microsd card slot for recording footage.
I turned it on. It required I install an application, register an account, and connect to the internet to activate it. It would not work or allow me to use it to record video until I did this.
I never bought a DJI product again. This type of thing is becoming too commonplace. Most people don't care, so it will continue to become the norm. Once it is too late, and companies have the ability to turn devices off, disable you from using them after a few years, or control how you use them, and there are no alternatives - THEN, people will care.
That's the unfortunate reality of life.
@@rossmanngroupThese companies are so stupid. Online services are always an additional exposure to risk. There is no way they will financially benefit from this nonsense long-term. Imagine a small business making such products. Having online activation is the last thing you want. Having a website and a web store is plenty enough risk.
@@rossmanngroupDo you really blame regular people for not understanding that, though? (If you do, what's your opinion on all legislation ever? Especially in relation to what you don't specialize in.)
I'm very glad you exist and care, because not everyone that knows better cares. It's not exactly fair to blame "regular" people, though. I really think all progress will need to be preceded by heavily regulated and enforced marketing regulations. It's hard to blame people that trust people (businesses) that are purportedly reliable when it's those same people that think the files are in the monitor. 😒
I don't blame regular people for not understanding, I do sigh at the reality that when you point it out to people they don't care or say _"so what, it's not a big deal"_ or _"what are you afraid of?"_ Also, long time no see, regular!
I'm still locked out of my Blizzard account because they want me to sign their BS forced arbitration.
That sucks. I'm sorry.
I lost all of my calendar dates because Windows now requires a Microsoft account to login to the Outlook app just to access your Calendar.
Technically, you sign nothing. They can't prove you signed it.
Same, I just deleted Their launcher from my pc. their games have been garbage for years anyways, BUT theyre still OUR games.
Lol bro you're like 5 years late on Blizzard. yes they recently "updated" their tos. just FYI they started this shit in 2019 with an updated tos stating that they can "legally" data mine your device that's connecting to their client. You also couldn't proceed I'd you declined.
3:09 "Cloud systems run by clowns" - Can we just call them Clown Systems?
Why not, talking on the topic at a faster speed won't notice the difference.
Nah that term is already in use, for the federal government.
Haha! We feature our clown-based servers for your convenience!
@@Ass_Burgers_Syndrome Clown Services, then.
"I upload everything into the clown"
Is there ANYTHING an End-User License Agreement CAN'T allow companies to do? Why do those get to effectively rewrite the law? TF!?
Because they operate on the law of the sea aka admiralty law. They do not operate on the land of the land or natural law or God's law.
From Ross Scott's recent dive into publishers killing their games with no recourse for consumers - US seems to be one of the most permissive jurisdictions wrt. EULA allowances
A lot of this stuff might get thrown out if things go to court.
The thing is lawsuits are expensive and no one is gonna go to court over a EULA unless something drastic happens. At which point the company can argue you've agreed to their terms and it gets even more expensive to take then to town.
@@lastswordfighter That sounds like something one would say about pirates. Except maybe worse.
Putting stuff into a EULA doesn't trump law. It can't enforce anything that isn't legally enforceable or is illegal to try to force. The problem is that there isn't anything specifically stating that a company can't force arbitration on you. Hopefully one day it will in fact be illegal. It won't stop companies from putting it into their EULA but it will disallow them from legally enforcing it.
The "smarter" these devices get, the dumber people become to be forced into things they don't want to be forced into.
Because of the convenience. That's all the morons of the world care about.
“Hope you’re having a lovely day…” because I’m about to ruin it by reminding you how bad corporations are!
"Hope you learned something."
-Sheen- Louis this is the 7th time you showed forced arbitration clauses to class this week
Ugh. Stop making these pointless comments.
I wouldn't have it any other way.
Yes corporations are bad (greedy and scrupulous) but still the Obama regime's US Supreme Court gave them personhood ~ America has been screwed ever since.
@@SplarkszterNot really pointless, it both shows support for the video AND inserts some humor into your apparently boring life
That was a joke btw
Can there be a class action lawsuit over the way forced arbitration clause is being forced without a way to say "no, take your stuff back and give me back my money"?
there are still rules and timelines for using mass arbitration. if the company fails to live up to those rules, they can be sued in a class action. The company that owns tinder just had this happen in Illinois for privacy violations.
Remember, you vote with your wallet. Do not use any product, or support any company that has forced arbitration. If you also get targeted with ads about their products on social media that allows you to make comments, vent your discontent to inform them of your decision.
@GHOSTSTARSCREAMMthe alternivates are to forego all tech and services ( cold turkey) or to take it up the ass and let companies shove a railroad spke in our asses because we rely on tech in this era (or to constantly cause hassle in some way such as annoying them with court, or hacktivists continually hack and cripple the company until they stop)
@@Dan_Tactics problem is like actual voting, there are a lot of uninformed people that outvote you
@@vika3750 You speak truth.
"Cloud" and "Security" should never be in the same sentence.
Just like the "old" saying:
The S in IoT stands for Security
These corporations need to face consequences for this kind of shit. As someone from Quebec, the "forced arbitration" clauses always make me happy I live here. They go pale when they find out "yea, I know what forced arbitration is. It's what YOU are now about to face in Quebec's consumer protection offices"
But sadly, not a lot of places care to do this.
Your local garden center has torches AND pitchforks.
All that is missing is a lighter, some willpower, and a willingness to give up the week or so it would take to get an arraignment.
its like my grandpa always said, 'if it aint broke, fix it till it is'.
pretty sure that was what he said...
Wtf is with every bloody company and service pulling this garbage all at the same time? I'm nearly ready to give into the Amish way.
If you look for "Amish Farm Shutdown", you will see recent news about the government messing with the Amish in a really unfair way.
It's pretty much a guaranteed win for the corp.
The Federal Government is attacking the Amish in court right now.
Of course they are coming after the Amish too.
Canceled Roku yesterday. Who's next, Louis?
seems they all form an orderly line to copy worthless ideas from their competition, so just give it like a day or two lol
Probably adobe and their penalties for canceling subscriptions early, I think they deserve to have their software used with genp only
It's still a mystery to me why they got away with it ? Adobe is not a credit organization or even a bank and such methods of extorting money is the ultimate level of corporate greed.
Soon there will be no such thing as "personal data" or privacy. 🤬
That would be fine. It's the transition that is difficult.
Soon?
@@BishopStars bruh
Even big corporations are victim to this. When that aws outage happened, Disney had issues literally letting people into their theme parks. Whether you own a multi million dollar theme park or hundred dollar security camera you should own your data.
unfortunately we run into the same problem with right to repair which is the messaging is never going to reach the people that it should because they don't care. they want something they can spin up on the cheap and forget about and aren't really concerned about the consequences past that.
it's extremely blackpilling but the inability of lots of people to think long term isn't something any of us can fix. we can make personal choices until we're forced into the woods, basically, but that's about it.
The majority of people are NPC's
Companies: "We want the right to harvest all of your data and sell it on at our benefit, but we don't want to be responsible for your data if we have a data breach...."
For some of them, the biggest issue with a data breach is that they didn't sell the data and profit from it.
This is informative and unfortunate.
you dont say
What isn't nowadays?
License agreements, they are unfortunate but not informative at all
@@takikohaku2270 They inform you that you're completely screwed. Kind of.
@@danieltoth9742 fr
Speaking of cameras, Sony released a new firmware update for their Alpha cameras. It's been happening for years, but the updates come with a nagging screen when using 3rd party batteries, forcing you to buy Sony originals. They were perfectly fine before.
Why tf are companies in the US allowed to change an already agreed contract!!!!!! And to take the piss are then able to keep the justice system out of those breaches of contract?
2:02 Probably Wireguard, not Wireshark
(Network tunnel, not traffic analysis utility)
Had some in my basket, well out they come
same here
Has anyone explored the legality of preemptively sending these companies a form letter that says "I reject your pre-packaged bad-faith accept-only EULA / arbitration clause / whatever and by taking my money anyway you agree to this rejection and that no button press / usage of your product constitutes any binding agreement on my part" ? It seems to me if their prepackaged presumptive language can be legally binding, so can ours?
Yoy forgot to mention. Also add a time limit statement that if they don't respond to you within a set period that constitutes their agreement with what you want.
It's a fun thought, but their lawyers and paid-for judges and legislators won't let you get away with it
Today on "What Grinds My Gears" 😍
I love your rants. Keep it real 😎
The current dystopia (refusal, for me) in choosing systems with devices where terms such as "security" and "cloud account" are used in the same discussion is a vast opportunity for young entrepreneurs: simply deliver the *fundamental* tech to the market without all the over-the-top greedy games. Let the merit of your product dictate your future.
The looters have finally made it easy for the makers to prosper. Go long, young man.
Thanks to your videos I chose to go with a conventional security camera with a network connected DVR for my new home.
a fine choice.
They can't force you to do arbitration. Forced arbitration isn't legal they just expect you to be dumb enough or broke enough to not challenge it in the court system when several states already have laws against it and many others have already ruled against it.
Edit: I just googled it to verify and it's federally illegal and has been so for a couple of years now. They passed the FAIR act which bans most forced arbitrations. No, it's not legal, take it up to the higher courts and sue them for breaking federal law.
It is H. R. 963 passed on March 21, 2022.
"The purposes of this Act are to-
(1) prohibit predispute arbitration agreements that force arbitration of future employment, consumer, antitrust, or civil rights disputes; and
(2) prohibit agreements and practices that interfere with the right of individuals, workers, and small businesses to participate in a joint, class, or collective action related to an employment, consumer, antitrust, or civil rights dispute."
This ain't legal.
Unfortunately, that bill never passed in the Senate, so it still hasn't gotten into federal law.
What makes it even worse, is that they've been trying to get this piece of legislation passed for over 7 years now, but it keeps dying in committees every time.
I sent a letter to my congress people about this, telling them to pass it. Mainly just to feel like I was doing "something". But we all know how the US government works, or actually doesn't work. So, there's that.
@@IvdW_
How could they not pass this? That's so stupid because this bill is what the people want. On top of that multiple judges and states themselves have already ruled that this isn't legal either. Absolute insanity is what our congress is.
Edit: The only solution is still to sue them. They'll lose in court because forced arbitrations have been shown to HEAVILY favor the company so they are an obvious violation of the law and people's constitutional rights.
All contracts made under duress are null and void.
If they brick your equipment if you do not sign, that's a form of duress.
@@Delimon007 What the people want, isn't what Congress wants. You got both sides bickering at each other to no end, and then you got one side that wants to add more pork to the bill, the other doesn't, but then threats come that blah blah will happen if this doesn't pass, so blame the other side. It's the same thing for decades now. I'm honestly amazed if anything ever gets done anymore at this point.
There's been a couple of court cases that have rejected claims and basically tell the plaintiff that if you have an issue, go through arbitration as per the contract. Whether or not this can be challenged, I can't say. Hell, I can't even get in contact with a lawyer for some advice out of the 10 firms I tried to contact for something... What a world to live in.
yup my cameras ONVIF are offline only
cant believe we have reached a point where people are willing to pay more for a device that isnt smart and wont connect to the internet
It's been just over a week since I emailed Blizzard support asking for a full refund on all the games I purchased prior to them changing ToS. Still no response...
I have a 4 reolink cameras. They are cheap. Work with almost everything. Home assistant, blue, iris etc. They have a SD card slot for local recording if you don't want to mess with a system. No cloud accounts required.
Same I went with reolink for the local SD, I don’t trust monthly subscriptions
one of the good things about a forced change of rules, is that in many countries in Europe, that means you get to return it for a full refund of your purchase price if you don't agree with the new changes which then makes the device defunct. Now I doubt that you have those sort of protections in the US, but in the US you have the freedom of speech to say how unhappy you are about that.
so there are "benefits" to being in the US I guess?
you'd think lawyers would be all over this arbitration BS! Imagine no more class action lawsuits! We'll have lawyers becoming squatters!
Personal storage - where government can't (effortlessly) sopena your data, or corporations can't go wild on how to sell you out to "data brokers(pirates)".
think it's a latin word or something, subpoena :)
I wish this mean would go into politics. Have him, somehow, fix consumer laws.
I'll agree to arbitration, but only if Mr Clinton is the arbitrator.
is it acceptable for the arbitrator to claw the eyeballs of the guilty? lol
I recently lost smart home automation features on my bedroom TV because Samsung will not support it anymore.
So now, I have a TV connected to the internet that cannot be controlled by my smart app. Which means I will now go ahead and disconnect the Ethernet cable and use it for something more useful.
A typical ethernet cables can be converted into a dog leash, or used to bundle blankets when you store them for the winter.
There has to be a way to fight this BS i'm tired of these companies getting away with all this congress should do something for once
One microscopic silver lining is it's becoming a thing for services to be offered that will work with a large number of people to mass-file for arbitration for what would normally require a class action lawsuit. Since the companies pay the filing and arbiter fees (due to wanting the arbiter on their payroll to lean their way), the costs to them can skyrocket very quickly showing them why it's a bad idea to force arbitration. Companies have even tried to get courts to move mass arbitration filings combined into a class-action lawsuit to save on time and costs and the judge just laughed them out.
Defeats the purpose of buying them in the first place. Insanity.
TP Link also forces you to accept the updated terms on each update and will not let you access your app otherwise - and most of the configuration is only possible via the app
And RSTP setup requires the app
If you have a TP Link NVR (branded Vigi), you can use the web GUI it presents to manage cameras. I suspect this feature arrived with an update because I originally resorted to their desktop application (Vigi Security Manager) to set everything up.
Raspberry pi's and other single board computers are a great way to set up your own cameras and completely circumvent all the crap.
"We've updated our privacy policy" -Transparent Toilet stalls.
Waiting for the end of the internet when all providers won't allow you to store anything locally - instead, it become Big Brother.
This is why all my smart devices are hackable with alternative firmwares and require no cloud. I have a smart home with no internet access.
Thus far I've been happy with Reolink. Those cameras stream to my PC which I use as an NVR. Their cameras have problems, but they sell cameras at my price point.
Thank you, keep working.
Hey Louis! Could you consider taking a look at Ross Scott's current global campaign to expand people's ownership rights on software? It just launched yesterday, and it involves some time-sensitive parlamentary petitions that we are trying to spread awareness of as much as possible.
Much love Louis!!
Or cloud companies that pretend to store your computer data only to find out it's just empty folders and when questioned, they delete your "LIFETIME" account. Should I name two?
All my cameras are attached to the dvr using coax🤣
That's even better. As long as they work, just power them and get video. No firmware updates to remove features!
havent you heard? connection & compatibility are now proprietary. i have always had an aversion to always online, from games, to programs, to technology like Tv's , speakers, etc. it isnt good for consumers, almost nothing done in the last 20yrs is good for consumers, its all profit related reduction of freedoms
While having someone monitor my home when I'm not there seems like a good idea I can't imagine trusting them at all.
I wonder how expensive it is to find someone to set up a closed network security system.
Louis, I smell a business opportunity.
That last one see on the toilet 😂 is hilarious 😅
Your on-premesis stored video is also protected by your civil rights where cloud stored video is not. Companies or government agencies would need to get a search warrant from a judge in order to legally access your locally stored video. They have no special requirements to get your cloud stored ring video. Note: I don't think this applies to businesses unless your business is at your home.
on-prem stored video of a business is protected, and the business can require a warrant. It is especially easy for a business to do that if the video is either encrypted or stored off-site.
Can you talk about Netflix buying Facebook users' private information?
the arbitration agreement is close to a waiver. I'd argue such negligence is outside the scope of the waiver and therefore not enforceable in the case of such massive widespread data leak. Attorneys are expensive, and without class action, along with so many arbitration agreements finding their way into products and jobs alike, make it impossible for the average working class individual to protect their rights, and prevent tyranny.
I learned something, keep away from the cloud! 🙂
Around 80% of Fortune 100 companies have FAA enacted in their clauses
While I don't live in the US, this still annoys me... Everything bad these guys come up with eventually finds it's way to Brazil...
At this point, Louis...you're gonna have a whole playlist dedicated to Forced Arbitration.
Louis, Discord has added an arbitration clause to their TOS.
It is opt-out by email only for a limited time, I think that it is important to spread awareness of this.
This better not be melarky, how to opt-out?
Louis you might want to keep an eye on the Supreme Court - while they won't outright ban it, there are a number of cases that were argued this year regarding arbitration (the most recent involving a person that files a federal lawsuit and the sued party uses their Terms of Service to force Arbitration under the "Federal Arbitration Act", and then ask the court to discharge the lawsuit, when the law only says to put the court case on hold pending arbitration, forcing the original party to re-file if arbitration fails). All of these cases should be decided by the end of June - and I hope it is the beginning of reforming the Federal Arbitration Act, and with it all of these companies that dodge their day in court behind unfair arbitration.
Love your work mate. One thought on what you said about in your setup in your introduction, and apologies if its implied, it might be worth considering using a cloud or other offsite provider to do realtime backup from your nvr to protect against thieves stealing or destroying the drives.
Thank you for the information. Hope you have a lovely day too.
So...cameras in prison also need shitty installation procedures, like connecting on internet?🤣
Thank you Louis
I'll stick to closed circuit
Day 7
Louis Rossmann for president!!!
Xiaomi Mi 360 Security Cameras underwent same deal. LOss of features, no RTSP stream locally, so almost a paper weight by now....
I got an email from Xfinity about changes to their arbitration, but they provided a link to opt out and made it easy instead of having to jump through hoops, so we'll see.
Forced arbitration does not allow the company from escaping criminal charges....
True, no contract is above the law.
Can anyone make a list of all companies that add forced arbitration to their TOS so we can just avoid them like the plague
I have 4x TP-Link cameras now. NONE to their cloud or any cloud. Only my local network/server. Done.
Right on Louis!
It's rather poetic that we buy cameras to show us who the criminals are, and all these companies are showing their true criminal intent
It it quite obvious that all these companies are in some way managed by the same people.
I'm waiting on cloud-connected socks 🙃
yours aren't? ;)
🤣 lol @ outro
I absolutely refuse to buy an IP camera that doesn't use rtsp or onvif. If my currently functional cameras get bricked by an update I'll NEVER buy anything from them again.
I have a cheapo Eufy nvr. No cloud, all intranet.
Their wireless solar camera has a flaw that when a reset button on the camera is pressed, it erases all the data on the nvr!? No chit.
So i bought some some cord powered cameras with wireless connectivity (a different brand) they worked great with the Eufy nvr.
And if i wanted to, i can open a port in the router for remote access. But since I'm retired and not traveling, there's no need...
Dobt port forward.
Do a local VPN instead.
I sometimes walk around and see what pops up on the old wifi and what you see shocks me.
who could have guessed
Louis, would it be possible for you to show exactly how to set up a local recording solution like you had mentioned? You showed once before that it is remotely accessible, yet entirely private using a router. It's hard to find information on this that's reliable or not riddled with ads. I think this would be a good value-add, and could do a lot of good.
Otherwise, if anyone could point me in the right direction, that would be appreciated. Either way, thanks for standing up on these issues.
Bro, I'm actually on the toilet 😂😂😂
ESP32 cam my friends. $10, local storage, works with home assistant.
If sock and camera companies are doing this, imagine when car companies begin doing this.
That's funny, I just bought a couple super cheap TP-Link wifi cameras to throw in the RV while it is stored on the side of the house. Thought it was odd how they tucked away enabling the RTSP in some odd menu item. Once I enabled it though, it does work perfectly well with my Blue Iris setup.
Guess I had better turn off automatic firmware updates on the ReoLink cams I use since they offer their own NVR and cloud service....
not wireshark but wireguard friend, little mistake
wireshark is for network inspection, wireshark is a VPN software
love your content man
Uh-h-h-h looks like it happened again
@@dside_ruyea he edited it twice and still failed hahahaha
wireguard is also a communication protocol, not just vpn software.
Use Frigate or Blueiris, if the camera wont work with them then bin it or return it, and if it does work, then block its mac address via your router, no camera should have free access to the internet, no internet, no remote firmware updates, they wont need it as there is no security issues to patch, you already fixed all security issues by blocking its internet access.
"Forced arbitration is illegal in the US" - Louis Rossman. I almost hear - "Class action lawsuit is illegal in the US.". The Final destination of news.
Also: that last joke is true for me....
Hikvision folks, the best you can get !
The best way to deal with forced arbitration is to take your lawyer with you and at the start of the meeting tell the arbitrator that they will be sued if there is any hint of bias. That should get them in the right frame of mind to arbitrate fairly.
This is informative and unfortunate
Louis, please get in touch with Ross at Accursed Farms about his recently announced international legal/civil campaign to stop video game publishers making their games inoperable after sale. I've never seen someone push further on the issue than his latest video, which gives detailed steps people in several countries can do to push back against this using gov. petitions and consumer advocacy groups. I think you've mentioned the possibility of collaboration on this issue in the past... now is the time!
I did a video on that before. I am not sure what else I can do there. I did discuss what was going on with that game once.
@@rossmanngroup Thanks for the reply. Many of the petitions require certain thresholds, X amount of signatures, for a required gov. response, so the amount of eyes on the issue while the petitions are active could make a huge difference in key nations with strong consumer protection. Ross is trying to achieve more on the scope of a game industry-wide change, but it's dependent on how wide a reach he can get. Many European countries don't even _have_ legal precedence over situations where purchased games are made totally inoperable. And France, where Ubisoft is based, has some of the strongest consumer protection in the world, so a compelled response from a petition could effect meaningful change.
Even without making a video about it, perhaps something you've learned from lobbying companies like this could be useful to his cause, in an advisory way? He came up short in meaningful ways to tackle the issue within America, by comparison. I know you're quite busy with your own business(es) though, so thanks for taking the time to read this, and I appreciate all you've done.
i was an early adoptor of a cloud security system who went under about a year after. never got a refund and i was unable to reuse the cameras
"Corporate responsibility" today means writing a contract that customers have no say in, that "protects" the company from their customers while allowing them to eff any customer over in every way imaginable after they've taken the customer's money.
"Remember, remember the fifth of November!." -Guy Fawks
Well, I'll be buying whoever doesn't do that :D
Mcdonalds tried to make me agree to the same crap to view their site.
"Man, let me tell you about TPS reports..."
They know that they can avoid massive lawsuits if they force arbitration on the end users after the fact.
The best solution is to avoid internet of things
Hi Louis, sorry to ask this here but it’s all related, can you react to new trend in restaurants specifically LA restaurants forcing a “security fee” for dining?