Automated CNC Dust Collection for just 20€
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- čas přidán 24. 09. 2020
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In this video, I show how I automated my dust collection for the CNC-router with a relay. The relay is controlled with the software by using the M8 code that normally is used for flood cooling. But since my machine will never have flood cooling I can use it for dust collection.
More information about the relay I used:
Relay: Finder No.: 40.62.9.048.0000
Mount: Finder No.: 95.85.3
Diode: Finder No.: 99.80.9.060.99
Metal clip: I have no part number of that unfortunately
Enjoy the video! - Jak na to + styl
I hope Felder are, at least, heavily subsidising your CNC purchases, because you are really making their equipment look very good indeed. I'm extremely envious of your setup - it is very elegantly engineered.
Thanks. Look forward to my next CNC upgrade project. That will be quite a milestone if it works as intended
Tool changer?
No tool changer, sry. Since I already have that quick tool changing spindle
SPOILER ALERT...I'm thinking 4th-axis...you are also a lathe guy, afterall.
I just wonder why the control box was mounted like this. If I had designed a product like this I would probably have mounted the control system upside down under the machine so that it would be enough to remove a cover to make maintenance work possible.
Solid mod, cleanly done, what's not to love? Another quality video. Felder's getting some free promotion here.
Since it was already commented while the video was on early access for my supporters on Patreon, I wanted to mention that as well. I also noticed that the router starts cutting before the vacuum runs at full speed. I don't think that it will be a problem, but I could insert a G4 P2 command after the M8 for example to wait 2 seconds before the cutting begins. However, I would have to write this into the PostProcessor code.
Also, by supporting me on Patreon, you can watch my videos earlier and without ads.
I don't think it's that big of an issue if the vacuum is not up to full speed when the cutting begins.
Unless the vacuum actively helps with chip clearing from the cut and that could cause issues with chips clogging up?
...or you put this code in your macro.cnc
Sub M8
M8
G4P2
EndSub
Schöne Grüße aus Nürnberg :)
@@oggie8788 clever, daran hatte ich noch nicht gedacht, danke!
I would actually suggest to start the dust collector first (also possibly have it run for a bit after the program finishes?). I mean, when doing it manually, you'd also start the dust collector first, so why not when it's automated? It probably barely even matters, since the worst that could happen is a few escaping chips or some sawdust, but still. Perfectionism is a thing.
Steady hands. I'm impressed. As always.
I find it amazingly beautiful how a small extra little touch can bring such a big improvement. I know the feeling :) Ps I would start the suction before the spindle as it needs to ramp up, and also add a little bit of end-gcode to your files to do a short automated vacuum choreography to clean the dust that's still inside the part.
Voiding warranties like a boss!
Totally professional job. Nice. (BTW your, soldering skills are first rate.)
Props for the lack of jumpcuts. Adding the bloopers at the end is a bonus feature, only possible for those creators not worried about hooking short attention spans.
Excellent work. Thank you for sharing.
I hardly did understand a quarter of what you did. But I find it so cool !
Very satisfying 👍🏼
When American/Canadian electricians see this video, they like woahhh the future is in Europe.
Wago :D
@@Tiger90Drake wagos rock! Used everywhere
When you write out your code, be sure to leave a small delay between the start up of spindle and dust collector to let the start up loads bleed off as either or both come up to speed.....which I now see Felder has built in using their premade code options - Even Better!
Very nice modification !
Yes, I have 3sec set for the spindle ramp up time
Really nice work... as always. *twothumbsup*
Absolutely Brilliant! As they say across the "pond". Keep up the good work young man. You are blessed with a myriad number of talents.
Great video as always. You could put a dwell command in your start code so the extractor is at full speed before the initial toolpath movement.
Thanks Savvas! I already did and set it to 2 sec.
Looks nice. Next time you are inside the controller check the relay contact. If you have any arching you may need a suppressor across the contact. Always a good idea when running inductive loads.
Hahaa... I did the exact same thing like 4 years ago with mach3. Great job!
Great job
Nice work! Maybe you need to start the dust collector first in your future programs, because it has the bigger inertia comparing to the spindle 😉.
Another hint: when you wire the socket with a flexible cable, pls leave the PE a little bit longer than L and N.
Marius! Absolutely love the videos and the projects! Quick question on your machine in the video. What is the quick change bit device you have? I've been looking everywhere for something similar and can not find anything suitable
Thanks!
-Jeff
Great video. Nice hack that's easily reversible. Mahalo for sharing!🐵
Idk why the hack is necessary at all. He could have made a relay controlled plug and just connected it to the socket the way it was designed. It would have been much easier.
Very nice Marcus. I did the same a few years ago with my BZT CNC which also uses the Eding CNC Hard- and Software. Bert from Eding CNC is very friendly and responsive, in case You need more software specific information.
Cool. I'm also in contact with Alfred from Eding CNC, but not with Bert yet
nice work :)
Technically warranty stickers are illegal, so you should still have your warranty. It's on them to proove that whatever broke was because of you, and given you filmed your modifications, they really have no leg to stand on if they refuse (which I doubt they'd do in the first place).
Film/video means nothing. I saw star ship enterprise go to everywhere. No. You would have to prove your changes are not to blame.
@@martinbakker7615 it depends on what country you're in, but generally the manufacturer has to prove that you are to blame, not the other way around.
He got the whole thing for free anyway. 😉
@@TDPEquinox Not quite: At least in the EU there are two kinds of warranty: The one demanded by law and the one the manufacturer gives you on his own accord. The first targets the seller and the latter is a contract between you and the manufacturer.
In any case you as the buyer have to proof that the deficiency was there at the point of purchase, it's just that in the first 12 (formerly 6) months there was a reversal of the burden of proof, therefore the seller (not the manufacturer) had to proof that the good was without deficiency.
The latter type of warranty is, as I stated: a legal contract between you and the manufacturer; and since it's exactly that the manufacturer can write in the contract whatever they want, that includes a voiding of warranty (i.e. the contract) when the sticker is damaged.
People always mix up those two types, but it's complicated -- I know.
@@Forakus Ok bro... If you say so, you surely have the legal proof that it's "nonsense"
Always love your videos, Marius. Of course, you could have used a current sensing relay/power supply available on Amazon for $35 to control the shop vac. No wiring, warranty intact, and up & running in 30 seconds.
Not as interesting, of course, but highly effective.
But then I can't turn the DC on with the remote (which I do really often)
FYI, warranty stickers do not void warranty if broken, no matter what the manufacturer says
Yeah but modifying it will...
That's only in the EU though, right? I remember something about that, but I didn't think it was international.
@@derrogers I don't see modifications but rather additions. He did NOT change any pre-existing functionallity
@@LuisFCorreia Additions who aren't directly made from factory or made by a factory-service-partner are modifications.
Luis Correia it doesnt change anything. I am for repair movement. But modifications like this alter electrical loads and functionality. You should be able to open and repair, but you should also accept that you can not provide quality assurance. Even if you are a professional, you dont know individual parts and schematics. Warranty should be broken.
But, losing warranty shouldnt allow them to refuse providing spare parts or any support service, thats the part i am against for. But losing warranty is fair.
Impressive. 👍
Mit nem Schnitzer das Garantiesiegel zerschneiden. Meine Klinge sieht fast geilch aus.
Gute Videos machst du.
You make good videos.
Immee wieder sehenswert 😁
I don't really know g-code that well but a possible idea for you - a program that has spindle off, flood on, and sweeps the entire bed from one end to the other and side to side. With that brush attachment, it would be like an auto-clean for the CNC bed that you could run after finishing your work, instead of vacuuming it by hand. It's extremely lazy, yes, but if you went to all the effort of not having to press an extra switch for the dust collector I suspect you might appreciate this extra... uhh... "efficiency". ;)
I've already made a test G-code for exactly that ;). But the machine is not fully prepared for testing that
Love your DIY videos, well done.
On a side note:
I'm kind of embarrassed that we (Sweden) don't have a dedicated standard when it comes to power outlets.
It's 2020 and we are STILL able to plug in an appliance, phase to neutral.
*smh*
You will see a. lot of industrial equipment which just has a single wire bridge inside a DB9-connector.
I have never before seen anyone successfully and efficiently use these crocodile-clip 3rd hands. Personally I have abandoned these and at all places and in all labs I have been they have only been used as a source of crocodile clips with the remains then wandering from one corner of a desk or shelf to the other 😎
The arms are never long enough, they should be able to clamp on each other. The better ones have poseable tubing (usually blue) and can be positioned anywhere in a much wider reach. I love my mini Proxxon board vise though. Almost anything's better than those cheap third hands.
Way better soldering skills than "Great Scott"!
Marius, maybe changing the order of operations, maybe starting the dust collection before the M3, and using G04 P6 or G04 P6000, with that you're giving 6 seconds of pause.
Das Relais könnte in der tat etwas knapp sein.
Das kann zwar 10A schalten aber das ist die AC-1 Kategorie, also rein ohmsche Lasten.
Die Absaugung ist jedoch ein Asynchronmotor, das wäre Kategorie AC-3.
Ich habe mal nachgeschaut, ein 40.62 Relais ist für 0,37kW Einphasenmotoren(AC-3) geeignet.
Es ist also mit erhöhtem Kontaktabbrand oder sogar totalversagen zu rechnen.
Ich würde mit dem Relais einen Schütz schalten der dann die Absaugung schaltet, dazu kommt das Asynchronmotoren oftmals den fünf bis achtfachen Nennstrom beim Anlauf ziehen.
Das findet die interne Gerätesicherung bestimmt nicht so gut.
Bravo!
That's a great and smart addition!
Just in case you run into problems: Sometimes the in-rush current on induction motors can arc-weld the contacts on mechanical relays rendering them useless. Yet, I've seen these last for decades without any problems, and most likely, you'll be fine. If this does happen, you can replace the relay and use it to control a contactor, which turns on the motor.
Isn't a contactor just a bigger, beefier relay though?
You could use a solid state relay, but those also eventually fail, so no real advantage there.
Since it's a 10A relay, and just a 600W (basically 3A) motor, so my (completely uneducated) guess would be that the inrush current barely goes over 10A, and even if it does, a good quality relay should be able to handle that. One from AliExpress may handle it differently, but I don't think this relay will ever fail. It's not like it's gonna be toggled 100s of times each day.
@@timderks5960 but in the Datasheet the relay is only rated for 370W with induktion Motors
@@timderks5960 Yeah, a contactor will have a larger gap and a stronger electro-magnetic coil.
A 600 W motor at 240 V would draw 2.5 full load amps. In-rush current is (ball-park) 6x the full-load amps: 6 x 2.5 a = 15 amps. So I would be more comfortable choosing a 15 amp relay.
Solid State relays are definitely a good option for inductive loads. One of the biggest advantages of solid state relays over an electro-mechanical relay is its ability to switch “OFF” AC loads at the 'zero-crossing' point in the cycle, thereby completely eliminating the arcing associated with conventional mechanical relays and inductive loads. And SSRs should last a lot longer than EMRs since there are no moving parts. SSRs might be more expensive though, I'm not really sure about prices honestly.
My suggestion to add a contactor was more if he didn't want to haul everything apart again, but you could add the contactor at the dust collector as an easier solution.
But I agree, this relay will likely not fail, I just wanted to point out some options if it does, or for anyone else doing a similar project.
@@flob.673 Didn't think to check the datasheet, woops. On searching though, I can't find anything in the datasheet for the 40.62..., only for the 40.61. I'm not sure, but it looks like you got that 370W from the 40.31 or 40.51 relay. I'd say it's safe to say that the 40.62 is pretty close to the 40.61, which has a rating of 550W. Better, but still too low. On the other hand: These specs are usually given with a safety margin, and are meant to keep a relay operating for at least X times. Going over a bit probably won't hurt that much.
@@ScottWalshWoodworking Dang, I learned a couple of things today. Never knew SSRs are better at switching AC, that's pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing.
In EdingCNC kannst Du auch bei der Spindel eine "Hochlaufzeit" hinterlegen, dann wartet das Programm ab, bevor es loslegt.
Alternativ kannst Du auch im CAM im Start GCode den Befehl G4 P3 verwenden, wobei P dann die länge der Pause (in dem Beispiel P3 = 3 Sekunden) definiert.
Die Hochlaufzeit liegt bei drei Sekunden. Nur der PP von Fusion setzt den M8 Befehl in der Zeile nach M3. Also wie du sagst, es ginge nur mit G4 Px. Mal sehen ob ich das noch im PP ergänze oder ob es das gar nicht braucht
Dies wird leider nicht funktionieren weil der Fusion schaltet zuerst die Spindel an (M3) und erst dann M8
Ein anderer Kommentar hatte die perfekte Lösung. Im macro.cnc ein sub M8 anlege und steht dann "M8 G4 P2" z.B. drin. Das werd ich so umsetzen
@@MariusHornberger Du kannst auch relativ einfach den PP von Fusion 360 ändern...
G'Day from Australia, you are my IDOL, I think I love you long time.
I'm sure there are dust collectors with internal Relais that can be modified to accept the 48V from the flood outlet. Then voiding the warranty of your dust collector, but not that of the CNC
Worth a like just for the warranty sticker cutting :)
Well done, but a small suggestion for the next time: A common guideline for wiring stuff with higher voltages (like mains) is to vary the cable length for line (shortest), neutral(middle) and earth (longest). So if someone pulls on or even rips out the cable with brute force, the dangerous wire gets cut first and the device stops working. And you don't accidently run with power still attached and earth ripped out. This can also be done on 5V, doesn't hurt ;)
Interesting tip, I'll keep that in mind
Das soll kein Meckern sein aber die Zuleitung zum Netzteil an dem du jetzt auch die Spannung für den Dustcollector abgreifst sieht echt etwas unterdimensioniert aus, ist das nur 0,75mm²?
Wenn das stimmt würde ich auf 1,5mm² aufrüsten. Grüße gehen raus :D
Den selben Gedanken hatte ich auch, als ich es gesehen habe.
Das hatte ich mir auch gedacht und genau die gleiche Frage an Felder gestellt und ein OK für die jetzige Leitung bekommen. Ist eine 0,75mm² Leitung reicht für 12A Dauerstrom. Denke da bin ich mit meinen max.8A noch gut im Rahmen
Hallo Marius,
ein tolles Projekt! Ich hätte es zwar hier und da etwas anders gelöst, aber das kann ja jedem selbst überlassen bleiben. Ich muss allerdings zugeben, dass ich bei dem Maschinenpreis schon eine etwas ordentlichere Verdrahtung seitens Felder erwartet hätte 🙈
Und noch was als Hinweis für kommende Projekte: Bei Zugfederklemmen darf man keine Aderendhülsen verwenden, da sonst die Kontaktfläche zu klein und damit der Übergangswiderstand zu groß ist. Auch ist so kein genügender Halt gewährleistet. Bei Schraubklemmen müssen hingegen Aderendhülsen eingesetzt werden, da sich sonst die einzelnen Litzen wegdrücken.
Danke! Also bei den Federklemmen direkt mit den Litzen rein?
@@MariusHornberger Ja, ganz genau! 👍🏻
Manifold = terminal block for electrical connections
Thanks!
Hi Marius, i always like your video's. I have a quick question, i am about to make a dust shoe for my cnc machine.
What style do you prefer? The type you made for the shapeoko, that stays the same height of the bed, or this one, that moves up and down with the spindle?
100% absolutely, definitely the one that stays at the same height. I'll go into detail about why only this style is good in an upcoming video.
@@MariusHornberger I figured as much, so i'm building that as we speak. I've designed a very interesting vacum hose solution. It's basically a V shaped cable chain for each axis.I hope it works.
The relay could be embedded into the schuko socket with the data cable coming out as well but this is just as clean a setup. A question: does it have software spindle speed control? If not... Will it? Since the warranty is already void, anyways...
Also a good solution. Yes, there is software speed control
Hi Marius,
ich weiß nicht wie lange das Relais bei dir halten wird. Im Datenblatt wir nämlich angegeben dass es für maximal 370W 1-Phasenmotorlast ausgelegt ist.
Hängt mit der rückinduzierten Spannung bei Induktionsmotoren zusammen...
Das gleiche hab ich mir auch gedacht. Da würd ich fast lieber ein kleines Schütz einbauen. Ich find auch die Auslegung der restlichen Elektrik von Hammer interessant. Die Spindel wird zwar ein Bürstenmotor sein, aber trotzdem recht grenzwertig meiner Meinung nach...
Nice! Can the G-code generator be tuned such that it would insert a small delay every time when starting the dust collector? Now the machine starts cutting before the dust collector has properly spooled up.
Yes, but I have to modify the PostProcessor to put a G4 command to the M8
Hello Marius,
I really like your addition to your CNC. Its a very nice solution wothout permanent changes to the machine!
I have got one question though: Is the rubber piece on the socket (where you put the wire through) also acting as a strain relief or are you able to pull the cable out of the socket? If I remember correctly German Schuko sockets like yours are made for permanent installation and therefore dont come with any sort of strain relief. Perhaps you could put a cable tie on the cable inside the socket so you are not able to pull it out again. That way the connection cant really get loose during normal use and the risk of fires is greatly reduced...
No, it doesn't add strain relief. But since it just sits on the table with some slack cable I'm ok
@@MariusHornberger a little thermoplastic (Polymorph brand etc) jammed in there, let to cool, then removed, drilled, and sawed in half, could make a good removable strain relief, if the drill size used is slightly less than the cord diameter.
Also not sure I trust all those push-fit/clamp terminal blocks inside a high-vibration environment, but that Felder setup does look to run pretty damn smooth.
Klemme = terminal (nicht manifold)
A possible problem might be that the main wire is just 1mm2 or less, you'd need to double check if it's rated for the amps you need, especially since the dust collector motor draws even more when starting up.
I checked that and got an OK
Typical dust collection automation keeps the dust collector on after the tool stops to clear the line of dust. Any thoughts about adding a delay off?
Muito bom
You sould make a vacuum bed for the cnc, just drill holes in the bed and enclose it and hook your dust collector on to it.
That wouldn't work. My DC is no vacuum pump
I just use the same signal that turns on my spindle to turn on my dust collection. If the spindle is running you need collection, if it isn't then you don't. Manual switch for using as a vacuum cleaner. Simples.
But that way you don't avoid that two Motors are ramping up at the same time...
@@philipphermann9454 Is that a problem?
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop Two big enough inductive loads at once can spike consumption (through imbalanced power factor) enough to trip a breaker.
However that can be solved by any of:
- a hardware delay circuit (see Mattias Wandel: "Induction motor NVR switch and starting circuit" for a similar circuit)
- a proper-value capacitor in parallel with the motor to balance the power factor
- or just software delay in the code, as Marius mentioned in the comments, he's looking into.
@@thewolfin As an electrical engineer I am fully familiar with inductive loading- and that VFD drives are both balanced and soft start. I have also designed (and published) circuits for extraction delay where these are needed- usually in the off direction to remove all remaining dust. As a professional software developer I am also familiar with software 'fixes' - I have modified my operating software to enable a number of extra features.
My point was that being unable to start both dust collection and spindle at the same time is a supply fault- which should be fixed at source. Many dust extraction systems have an 'auto on' feature that detects current draw and enables extraction. These will not work with a 'broken' supply that cannot handle two motors starting at once. Patching software or building add-on hardware is not the correct approach to this failure.
I personally would add a dwell command for like 2 seconds so the dust collector can spin up.
Get yourself a ts100 soldering iron, it is the best soldering iron for small projects like this and that for under 80$
Hmm, that's a perfect item for my Amazon wishlist
@@MariusHornberger I believe there's a USB-C version which with 20V turns that little guy into quite the beast.
@@thewolfin TS80
I would add a delay in your programs. First you fire up the dust collector and let it run for a few seconds to get up to speed, then turn on the spindle, and when you finish the program have a delay for a few seconds to let the dust collector get the last bits of debris instead of turning it off immediately.
You wouldn't want to put a socket on the wire that goes into the terminals(set aside for the relay that have screw terminals)!
It begs the question why the manufacturer did not do this originally!
Didn't the EU ban warranty stickers?
Yes, you don't loose your warranty, just the "without questions" warranty.
Hi Marius!
How does F360 changes impacts you?
Since I still have the student licence, there are no impacts for now.
You could solder Gutters with that soldering iron :D
Tip size is not indicative of thermal mass or power ;)
But for Marius not really being an electronics guy, it's pretty good soldering! Little cleaner tip and some flux and he's golden.
@@thewolfin Of course not :)
The solder for Electronics has the Flux already in it :) at least i havent't come across any without here in Germany....
Are those Wagos supposed to be used with ferrules? I know that there is some incompatibility between solid and stranded copper and ferrules.
the ones I used don't require ferrules. (they're also sligthly more expensive)
@Marius Hornberger Sorry, my point was that some aren't supposed to be used with ferrules at all (as they're harder than copper).
Same goes for the power outlet.
@@404Anymouse He used those Wagos www.wago.com/global/installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/compact-splicing-connector/p/221-413
👍 für den Algorithmus
Smallest arduino, a clip on current sensor and a relay could do the same for under 10€... + more features if you want. Just to say.
But I wouldn't be able to start the DC with my remote (not without writing some arduino code). What about power supply for the ardiuno? Where to put all the components? Just to say😉
Marius Hornberger you can, just put relays from remote and arduino in parallel. Power supply is a bit smaller than the arduino itself and both not much bigger than your remote fob. I‘ld like to help you; if u want that, pls let me know. Greetings from austria.
Like 👍 friend
It seems to me that it might be a lot easier to use an adapter on the mains socket on the wall, with two outlets. One for the dust collector is switched on the basis of the amount of power drawn on the other. Set the threshold to around 800 Watts, and it will switch the dust collector with the motor. That way, there is no fiddling inside the machine and no hijacking a control (flood cooling) for another purpose.
🔧😊👍
Marius, I think it's time for another live Q&A
Please like if you guys want the same. 😀
You need a better solder iron. :-)
In this case i would have paralleled A1 with the spindle relay to just turn it on when the spindle is on, without any M Codes...
Boring 😂. Just kidding. Nice idea. Less work, but less possibilities 😉
Indeed less possibilities, i thougt about it as well. But on this machine i do not see the need to turn it of, while the spindle is running, or vice versa.
Almost every time I'm cleaning the remaining chips with the dust collector after a program has finished
Two inductive loads hitting the mains circuit at once can be no bueno.
@@thewolfin why? The switches have diodes anti parallel and inductive loads increase the current slowly
My shopvac has a outlet that you can plug your tool into. When you start the tool, the shopvac also turns on (after 2 or 3 seconds). Maybe this would be a simple way of doing it? Instead of taking the power to the spindle from the CNC's integrated plug, but taking it from the shopvac via the relay activated by M3
Just a thought
That's also possible and a lot easier, but a bit less convenient
@@MariusHornberger To me it sounds just as convenient. Dont need to buy and wire up another relay 🤔
If you already have a shopvac like that, of course
@@MariusHornberger Oh yeah, you're right! 👍
Why such a small router on such a capable machine?
A bigger 2,2 kw spindle is available. I should get one in the near future to try out
Es hätte nur noch professioneller gemacht werden können wenn du die Schuko Dose in die Seitenwand gebaut hättest. Wäre vielleicht eine Verbesserung an den Hersteller.
Hatte ich kurz daran gedacht, aber wäre dann doch zu viel Aufwand gewesen
Moin, alles schön, was du da gebastelt hasst aber dennoch möchte ich dich darauf hinweisen, dass Aderendhülsen in den Federklemmen an der Schuko Dose nicht erlaubt sind... Dafür musst du mit lampenklemmen auf ein kleines Stück nym oder nyy adaptieren um dies in die Dose zu stecken... Oder du nimmst ne Dose mit Schraubklemmen.
Bitte glaub mir ich bin Elektroniker in einem Kraftwerk.
Aber wenn doch die Hersteller der Dosen die Klemmen ausdrücklich für Aderendhülsen freigeben???
Das ist ja noch schlimmer, als mit den Aderendhülsen. Besser sind da Stiftkabelschuhe z.B. www.klauke.com/de/de/isolierte-stiftkabelschuhe
you know you could have done it with out voiding the Warranty.
Watch the outro