The Most Cliche Alternate History Map
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- čas přidán 14. 02. 2023
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There are many cliche's in alternate history, as there are in any form of media. This map on display today, by TheMexicanHistorian on Reddit, ( / the_most_cliche_map_po... ) attempts to collect those alternate history chiche's together in a single creation. We have it all, communist France, North African opposition government, Greater Germany, reformed USSR by Gorbachev, East African Federation, the Imperial Federation, Greater Bulgaria, the Megali Idea, Gran Columbia, Danubian Federation, Second American Civil War and much, much more! I hope you enjoy this rundown of TheMexicanHistorians amazing map!
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Thanks for analysing my map! It makes really happy to see it being explored by the alternate history community even months after I made it and I have the biggest smile on my face watching this jaja, although I must say I find it really funny how my most popular post ever was essentially a shitpost. I felt the need to explain some of my more unconventional choices here while watching the vid. The independent west coast was a mixture of kaiserreich and a good chunk of alternate future maps which break away the area for reasons I don't understand really well either. As for the 2 paths for the USA, I chose collapse over mega state because it gave me a chance to show other surrounding cliches like quebec and balkanized mexico. For south america I did get a lot of feedback about the borders not changing which I felt was more common in HOI4 than other forms of alternate history but my own biases as a latin america centered creator may have influenced my choice to instead showcase other cliches. You are also correct about the pink map although perhaps I could have made it clearer and the congo lake while rather rare is seen in some really big alternate histories like TNO and that's why I decided to include it despite not being quite so cliche, plus it helps the region look a bit more different since it is usually ignored a lot and as such hasn't develoed many cliches sadly. Finally just to adress anyone who feels bad about their favorite tropes being here I just want to mention that the intent of the map was not to mock these, as most of them have a lot of interesting story telling potential if done well but simply to have fun seeing how many cliches I could fit into map that still somewhat made some form of sense (but not much). Great video! I am glad it was sent to me, you have gained a new subscriber jaja
omg, the mejican historian, imma big fan
When sports post
imagine making a clichéd map couldn't be me
o7
Nacionalista
>most cliche map
>New Zealand is missing
Seems about right
New what now?
@@lucasrodillo6739 nothing, you must've misheard
@@lucasrodillo6739 Must've been the wind
what's missing
No, Zeeland is in the Netherlands and is very much here. Is this a Dutch colony of some sort? Never heard of it.
Ironically, by combining all these clichés, the creator has made the least cliché map possible
Not really?
Some cliches contradict one another, so I'm pretty sure several different maps can have multiple cliches in them.
Forgot Ethiopia smh.
@@siyacer It is since this amount of combinations makes this more rare/unique than generic (cliche)
Yep
everybody remembers Texas' time as a nation before statehood, no one remembers Hawaii being its own sovereign kingdom before statehood.
I just got done reading Mark Twain's essays on Hawaii (Called "The Sandwich Islands" if you want to find it) Really weird how that in alt history isn't more popular.
But speaking of Mark Twain/Saterists, I wonder why there hasn't been any popular alt histories based on taking saterists too seriously. (Like one based on "A Modest Proposal" perhaps)
also Vermont was its own Republic for around 14 years after the Americans kicked out the brits
due to some convoluted internal territory despites
it delcared independance from the British, New York, and New Hampshire (i think they did for the last one)
it is also the reason why Vermont is the 14th state added and not apart of the originonal 13
And no one cares about California and Vermont being countries
Even if for one of them it was less then 2 weeks
It's really a shame, Especially as independent Hawai'i seems more likely actually than independent Texas, Since Texas for the most part wanted to join the U.S., And was definitely fairly culturally similar, Whereas Hawai'i was completely different culturally and was just outright invaded by the U.S.
@@rateeightx I think the main reason is that realistically an independent Hawaii overall is a small, weak, economically unimportant nation and is a banana republic or is a tourist trap and basically the same and thus lacks potential for interesting storytelling the way an independent republic in NA mainland competing with the USA does
How has no one noticed New Zealand...
New Zealand being forgotten on maps is also a cliche
@@MrTorchwoodifytrue true
It sunk.
@@theylivewesleep.5139 So TF2 IS real
Make it be run by the Maori with minimal European presence like other Polynesian states.
He really did manage to fit almost every cliche in one map.
Impressive
I think the only one missed was partitioned Switzerland
@@carlthesanellama3633 Switzerland existing is already a cliche
@@carlthesanellama3633 nah. The trope is usually swizerland standing still even when europe is all united by some aliens that clearly can go through colonies. Bc no matter how unrealistic it is, they shall survive with no changes at all
Missed Countrywank.
Chile's borders makes perfect sense when you look at an elevation or rainfall map. Sure it's a long skinny Spaghetti of a country but natural geography practically dictates it to exist.
This, as an Argentinian, when you look at the geography it just makes sense.
The infrastructure you need to have Chile and Argentina united is extreme if you want the Union to have any meaning
@@bonaaq86 there's a number of crossings of the andes.
Argentinia read about hannibal and decided to get a little silly
Yeah, there's like only 4 east-west passes across the entire border that are passable year-round
@MeChupaUnHuevon Oregon's the same, you have the "I-5 corridor" then everything east of the mountains is desert, all in the same state.
> _"Ireland wants to be united and it makes sense to have the island unify"_
This car bomb has been brought to you by Ulster Volunteer Force gang.
Ah, nice work of you my Protestant brother. Now, would you please step into your car ? You are quite late
This post was made by Irish Republican Army Gang
I like and hate how no one explores a alternate scenario where N.Ireland becomes indepedent from both Britain and Ireland
@@thinkingboi9508 😂 it has a nonexistent economy - absolutely no chance it can survive on its own
@@stickynotemetagaming Same with Germany winning WW2, but somehow half of all alternate history involves them winning it.
@@sephikong8323 Sure thing, but if you could please step into McGurk’s bar for a quick drink first that would be great, Paddy.
The trope of independent California has two origins: if it happens in the 21st century and late 20th it is a liberal secession against a Very Conservative USA, basically the left version of the Confederates. If it happens in the early 20th century, it probably has to do with Californian exceptionalism. Also Fallout played a big part in making this trope Popular.
I just thought it was just fallout
also very popular is an arcadian state, north of caifornia, up to vancouver
@@schellwalabyen4656 Isn't that Cascadia?
Seems ncr was a likely candidate given that the west coast secessionist states are always democratic in an American style
@@tkaine7983 Yes! I was just a little confused and that is exactly what I meant.
My favorite trope is that no matter how history changes or how America forms, Texas is always independent in these. It's like we're living in the only timeline where it isn't. I really lost it when I read Man in the High Castle, and realized even in a world where the Axis invaded America and Nazis rule Washington DC, Texas (as part of the border zone) still manages to be independent lmao
It's the part of the modern US that is most likely to be it's own country. Maybe next to the Kingdom of Hawaii and Russian Alaska.
At least much more likely than mexican california not becoming part of the US or the US-Canadian border being different.
@@HappyBeezerStudiosIt’s impossible for a state to secede now
@@pels_stackedno
Wait I read that wrong yes
Texas is like American Switzerland
Remember, people who draw maps are often Paradox gamers. And they also dont like tiny countries. Stuff MUST be merged. Or if it is tiny, its the Papacy, Luxembourg, or Liechtenstein.
*ULM*
When I saw that big lake in Africa I figured this guy is a tno fan
@@goldenfiberwheat238TNO REFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@justusP9101 well what other alternate histories have a giant lake in Africa?
technically Age of Imperialism has lakes, but in Sahara
Funfact: Bulgaria is the only country in ww2 that Got out of the war with more territory then before as an axis member
Bulgarians, seeing the Soviets: "The USSR has freed us!"
Soviets: "Oh, I wouldn't say freed. More like... under new management."
Fun fact: Poland is the only country in ww2 that got out of the war with less territory than before, despite being on the allies.
@@0Dx_geczechoslovakia lost some too
@@BetalerIkkeSkatt they weren’t on the Allies since it was dead by the time it started
@@0Dx_geactually, the allies hosted a czecoslovak gov in exile during ww2
Now we need an alternative history story that somehow gets the world map looking exactly like this.
Yo me la estoy imaginando ahora
kaiserreich
@@hammerGAR
Casi
we need a hoi4 mod on this NOW
the American Civil War ending with a permanent split would trickle down into many of the tropes turning into reality, since a weaker and divided USA would impact a lot on the rest of the world.
No support during the World Wars (would they even happen?), no American influence on Japan, Latin America remain outside of the influence of the USA allowing them do their own thing, the UK would remain the biggest power on the Anglosphere and leverage that power towards the British Commonwealth... and so forth
Australasian cliche:
Unite Australia with all Islands in Pacific Ocean into one single state called Oceania or Australasia.
Weeb variant: I said ALL. Japan, Indonesia, Taiwan, Hawaii, Sakhalin, the Diomedes and the Galapagos are all Australia (renamed Pasifika).
There's an English variant where all lands not part of Antarctica, Australia major (excluding Tasmania), or continental America or AfroEurasia are British. Cyprus, Japan, Jan Mayen, Tasmania and Corsica are all British, as is Ireland.
Overtheria:
Everything over there where I don't care is united into one nation, language and whatnot be damned
Oh yes, Oceania, the home of IngSoc!
There is also another fictional state named Oceania!
Bro you just spoiled my plans as prime minister
i think the west coast independence thing comes from the fact that it wasn't fully colonised until after the civil war, so grouping it with either the north or the south doesn't vibe well (plus it would make the balance of power tilted way towards whichever side got it) so they make it independent.
plus geographically it is sort of an island since its seperated from the east by a band of the least densely populated states
I thought it was because of fallout and the NCR that became famous.
I thought it was because alternate historians didn't know what to do with it so just put a random republic there
The pacific coast states also share culture, politics, and geography. West coast culture is usually why I think of them being grouped together
The HOI4 mod kaiserreich also helped popularize the trop as the Pacific states are one of the various factions during the second American Civil War in the late 1930s.
As someone who lives on the US western coast, I can confirm there are many people who are very prideful in being different from the rest of the US in their progressive politics and ideas. You'll often see Cascadia flags in my area as well, a proposed state consisting of (as far as I know) British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, and California.
You should definitely check out more of TheMexicanHistorians stuff, they made a really good “What If Latin America was Stronger” Scenario
*Insert Cod:Ghosts main villains*
LOL yeah what if, never will happen tho
Yeah it's a really cool one
What’s really wild about alt history is that the community tends to be split on either monarchist German empire supreme or communist world republic
The thing about althist is it tends to tell you more about the person making it than the actual period explained. This isn't always the case and good authors can abstract their ideals enough, but 99% of times, it is firmly about what would happen if their ideals came true. (Except for splitting america. That will be done by most people simply because if USA doesn't split then the entire scenario becomes "How the hell do I stop USA from ruining the scenario?", seriously, we don't wish death on USA irl, we just don't want the answer to every question to be "USA stops it from happening", biggest, killjoys, ever.)
As I was saying. Generally speaking the althist crowd is made out of contrarians. I would know because I'm in on it, and while I myself prefer althist scenarios where the bad guys win so we get more conflicts (hence always killing USA), a... frankly concerningly high amount of members of this crowd see their tales as the "good ending". Hence you have 3 groups:
1-Bootlickers. Whether funny mustache fanboys or tankies, these guys have a hardon for the good old days where democracy wasn't a thing. And more often than not worship Russia too, be it for its "conservative values" or being against NATO. You can tell because assholes are still pushing Putinist propaganda about the invasion making my respect for them plummet into the stone age. Of these, the lefties love to have the USSR win, and as for the not sees they are the ones often pushing ww2 axis victory scenarios, but because those often get them in trouble, because portraying the man who I can't name without triggering someone as a good guy is universaly seen as heinous. So they push USSR victory and either have the russians go nazbol or portray this as "oh the humanity what have the allies done by letting the commies win", I prefer that last one it's usually the least insuferable of these types of maps.
2-Occidentalists: These are the guys spamming the german imperial map. Some are just liberals who think had germany not lost ww2 we would have avoided the rise of a certain political party (spoilers that's not how that works), some are lefties who think had germany won we'd have seen communists rise in france and UK, and therefore be of the less vilified ancom/syndie type instead of the russians (so they're in extreme denial), and the last ones on this group are the funny mustache club again except these ones at least have the common sense to hate Putin and instead use monarchist germany as an excuse for their stronk europe fetishism. I actually know one of these guys personally and he's currently fighting in Ukraine with the rest of his "militia". I completely disagree with their ideology but they have certainly gained my respect. Unlike the other half of those types of people...
3-Orientalists: These guys just hate europe, period. They often have commie empire maps but more commonly you see china maps, america maps, ottoman maps or arab maps. Basically if it's not "white" they'll worship them and portray them as the good guys. Even when they were objectively way more fucked up than europe at the time. Seriously I have seen so many Aztec and Arab maps. Holy hell. Guys if you're gonna do the noble savage trope at least have the decency to use a less horrifying empire. Hell just use the Tlaxcalla, say they somehow managed to take advantage of the Aztec's internal issue to turn the tide. I know you hate them because they allied with the Spanish but god damn they had good reason to you know. The aztecs were literally farming them as sacrifices! It doesn't get more messed up than that!
So yeah that's why that's the biggest fight in the althist fanbase (and the funny mustache club), since the commies and germans had competing claims. Personally I'm a lib left shitposter, so I love to use the molotov-ribbentrop map and find ways for those two not to wind up at war. Because it triggers the hell out of everyone. Seriously go into any althist community and just post that map with the flimsiest excuse. You'll get assholes spamming political bollocks to justify it not working under any circumstance no mstter what, it's glorious.
@@thespanishinquisition4078 exactly and based comment, I would honestly like an alternate history scenario in which Georgism succeeds in the USA during the great depression smh.... or another in which Russia becomes market socialist instead of Marxist-Leninist after the russian empire falls...
@@shzarmai 😢
@@thespanishinquisition4078 I did not expect to see the Spanish Inquisition
@@thespanishinquisition4078 You know the Tlaxcalans had the exact same culture and religion as the Aztecs right? Had they been the to dog they'd have been doing literally the exact same, in fact after a flower war they would take home any Aztec prisoners and sacrifice them just like the Aztecs did with Tlaxcalan prisoners. None of the Aztec's subjects hated them cos of sacrifices it was all pure politics. (Tlaxcalans also considered killing all the Spanish and had Cortez came any earlier they wouldn't have been desperate enough to spare them)
Also how are the Arab empires any worse than any European empire??? In fact I'd say they were much better than most colonial ones (not a high bar). From the way you talked about "orientalists" it seems more like you just don't like any timeline where Europe isn't topdog. It isn't hating Europe to enjoy a timeline where other continents get to thrive without Europeans destroying them. I don't understand why you'd see people making maps of non-white empires as somehow anti-white, that's a really weird (and telling) mindset.
What if the Vikings stayed in America and more Europeans overtime colonized it like the English French in Germans and there we get a medieval America
The problem with that is.
How quick can the europeans move in and how quick can the natives recover
@@electricangel4488 Even better if there are European and native kingdoms.
@@electricangel4488 if they would bring horses and European cattle then the complete trajectory changes for the Americas
I think the first big effect would be the relationship between whites and natives.
With pagan vikings being the main colonizing force in the beginning, I think you'd see some native tribes adopt those traditions, but it wouldn't be as widespread as Christianity since the Vikings wouldn't force their beliefs on natives as heavily.
The Vikings wouldn't be perfect, but they'd be more interested in trading with the natives rather than killing or chasing them off their land.
I'd wager that the Vikings create a colony in New England, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland, with some settlements in Quebec, while neighboring natives would recieve European technology that allows them to form their own medium sized nations.
I'd bet Christians would arrive around 1300, but there's no telling what would happen. If the black death reaches America it could be even worse than the arrival of smallpox
Did Scandinavia have enough people to populate any signifcant colonies in North America in the 11th century?
Awesome content as always. In my opinion, the pre-opium war Qing Dynasty is an underrated border map.
Regarding Italy’s colonies in Africa: they also have Tunisia in this map, a callback to how they saw themselves as the successors of Rome and Tunisia as the successors of Carthage.
But Italy wanted to colonise Tunisia even during scramble for Africa, but they were outdid by the France
@@Pigraider268 true. They wanted to colonize Tunisia bc it was (at least in their eyes) the successor of Carthage.
@@jwil4286 More like they considered it Roman territory, that they gained after defeating Carthage
@@Pigraider268 that’s what I meant.
@@jwil4286 No, they wanted it because it gave them a commanding position in the central Mediterranean.
Having the British Imperial Federation, whilst also having Irish nationalism and an independent Quebec, is just cursed on so many levels.
I absolutely hate this, and screw you for bringing this abomination to my eyes.
Have a subscriber and a like because this is great and I want more cursed history to burn my eyes!
Does it not look satisfying tho? I can already feel the British ready to boast. It would be cursed if Britain kept the Imperial Federation, but somehow Scotland and Wales were independent.
Almost as if the monarch decides that the commonwealth has to come closer together.
It would be better if NI was part of an independent scotland like it's labeled "Northern Ireland (Scotland)".
@@tompatterson1548 Ulster Scots take their revenge
*To be fair, this map looks really nice. I'd change (as well as tropes I've seen):*
• Restoration/ Survival of Mali kingdom
• Cyprus to not be British, whether that is by having it independent, Greek, or split between Greece and Turkey.
• Just a suggestion: Bulgaria-Romania Union (which was a proposal at one point, and common in alt,hist maps)
• Slightly larger Albania (just slightly). A really common trope is Kosovo becoming Albanian, whilst Serbia expanding on other frontiers.
• Guiana/ Suriname to the Dutch
• Baltic region independent from Germany. Whether that is as an independent Baltic union, or having Estonia Nordic
• A common trope I've seen is split Italy, usually north--south, however it'll make the map worse imo.
• One thing I'd change, is make New Zealand actually exist on the map, but it's a common trope to make it not exist.
• I've seen New Zealand, where the now-under water continent is slightly less underwater. More authority to the Maori, and/or Kiwi Tasmania are also common tropes I've seen
• More info on smaller island nations. What happened to Mauritius (did the dodo survive?), what happened to the rest of Oceania?
That is almost exactly what happened on my most complete alt history map.
Except that the baltic thing turned into a non-unified Germany, with a continuing Prussia (don't worry, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth also stuck around), Saxony and Bohemia/Czechia decided to become it's own, independent thing, and obviously the Kingdom of Bavaria-Austria.
Estonia got together with Finland, while the scandinavians made a new union that extends into Vinland.
Oh, and my Italy is split into four:
- The Kingdom of the three Sicilies
- The Central Italian republic (which includes Corsica and Sardinia)
- a new Venecian Republic
- And the Gallo-Corsivo empire in the north between the Rheinland, the Occitan Empire, Venecia, and Bavaria-Austria.
And don't get me on independent Catalonia, Aragon, Leon, Galicia and Basque-Navarra.
And not only is there a new Mali Empire, but also a Berber state in the Sahara.
In some way it's a much less unified world that really hangs into the self-determination angle, where every group of people demanded their own nation and got it.
I honestly love the idea of alt history maps where the turning point isn't "what if these politics shifted?" But rather "what if this entire continental plate behaved differently?" XD
I am honestly loving videos like this delving into constant elements of alternate history. Not a lot of people talk about how Alternate history is basically a political writing made like tropes.
Great analysis, I was a part of the team which helped The Mexican Historian. I helped in India and the real reason that South India remained loyalist is due to the fact that compared to the North, the South is still extremely Anglophile due to the British treating south India better than north India. In all honesty, I loved your theory involving the Sepoy Mutiny!
As a Kiwi I expect New Zealand was left out deliberately in a nod to the cliche of being left out accidentally so often. Impossible to know for sure though do I don't know whether to laugh or frown...
Map creator here! It was indeed a nod to how sadly common it is for your country to be left out of maps. If it makes it any better the first comment on the original post was "r/mapswithoutnewzealand" so at least people noticed fast.
@@themexicanhistorian7075 Nice! Thanks for letting me know.
You should read on the Finno-korean hyperwar
Please, it's hecking hilarious
I’m surprised there was no huge Mittelafrikan colony, usually that trope goes hand-in-hand with the big Germany trope
because it will inevitably fall apart
More clichés > a single cliché ig
If Mittelafrika exist on this map, then Germany needs to East slavs comissariats and stuff, and this would broke the Polish-lituanian Commonwealth
Mittelafrika my beloved ❤️
New Zealand being forgotten on maps is a big cliche
As a half Dominican I am extremely outraged of Haiti uniting the island it should have been us 🇩🇴🇩🇴
Edit: (or at least we shouldn't have been taken over by Haiti)
As a person that only heard of the island of Hispaniola last week while learning about the Napoleonic Wars. Lmao cope 🇭🇹🇭🇹🇭🇹
Nope, as a Dominican no, keep the island divided, there's many differences between us, we can get along fine but not being in a single country, language, culture, religion are a big factor of this and also we don't want those terrorist groups here tyvm, and don't want Haitians trying to get into power, keep it divided and it's a happy ending for both sides (If Haiti manages to improve their country that is, if not then big chunk of unclaimed land)
@@frederickoftheartic2209 lmao imagine supporting a poverty state
Don't worry, you guys will get the next map! ;D
@Patrick bateman(real) not really is the government that sucks, just like any other country, it can be fixed with dealing with corruption and maybe some law changes
This alt history scenario plays off like an unhistorical hoi4 game and I love it.
Y'know Shen Yun? The touring artistic troupe/Chinese political dissident group/cult (I'm serious, look it up) that has recently cashed in on anti-Chinese sentiment in the US by branding their show as "China Before Communism"? One of the most entertaining things about this map in my opinion is White Alaska and the French Union, because I have a feeling they'd become major tourist destinations (or at least more major than in our current timeline) for the same reason. People would totally visit both to experience "Russian/French culture before the rise of the Communist Party"
As a chilean you just made an enemy for life
Chileans have a long memory.
*helicopter idles in distance*
"Damn Chileans, they ruined Scotland -I mean Chile"-
you forgot about one cliche - the lack of New Zealand entirely.
the map entirely lacks new zealand, as it's very often entirely forgotten on maps
Is this some sort of injoke in the cartography circles? I don't see anything missing from the map. I tried zooming in on low countries as far as I could and Zeeland is still there. And why is the name changed? Are they supposed to become independent or something?
@@thespanishinquisition4078
no i mean the cliche is to not include new zealand on a map by mistake, as its all the way in the corner and often missed on artful depictions of the world (check r/MapsWithoutNZ).
and so it became a kind of joke to not include NZ in maps
but on this video there is regular new zealand
@@wojtekpolska1013 What's New Zealand? I don't think it ever exists in our timeline.
New what?
@@AntiOkieProtectionsquad the country of New Zealand
8:35 Having recently spent 3 weeks in multiple parts of the Southern Cone, let me just say that I can't imagine anything *less* satisfying than imagining Santiago and Buenos Aires being run by the same government.
You were there longer than the amount of time California existed as a nation IRL
16:31 Tbh, the cliché of Austria-Hungary falling apart no matter what is a much more prevalent and much more annoying trope.
because ot was inevitable
@@fakegun7728 That's an assumption based on very superficial understanding of Austria-Hungary.
@@fehervari98 I come from a country who had at least a part of it in Austria-Hungary. There were too many tensions, Hungarians too focused on keeping priviledged positions etc...
@@fakegun7728 Austria-Hungary had to go through more than four years of previously unprecedented scale of total war while also being completely cut off from world trade. Even then, it started to disintegrate only when the military situation completely collapsed and it became clear that the Entente had no intention to negotiate with the Austro-Hungarian government in any meaningful manner.
The circumstances that allowed Austria-Hungary's collapse were extraordinary to say the least. The Habsburg Monarchy's downfall is one of the freak-accidents of our history. Of course, as an act of self-legitimisation, the ethno-nationalistic successor states are hellbent on pushing a rhetoric that it was actually inevitable. Unfortunately way too many people fall victim to this way of thinking, since looking at the matter superficially, it makes sense.
If the Danubian plan got off the ground it could have survived.
17:02 *OBJECTION!*
The "Italy never undergoes risorgmento and remains a divided land of city-states and minor kingdoms" cliche is more common than the "Italy gets a bit bigger" cliche.
(I know it's not your map, but still - worth a mention.)
I was about to say. Division of Italy (whether that is into city-states, or just along the North--South border) is just as, if not more common than a "Greater Italy" trope
Italy has a bunch of separate dialects (or as some may say separate languages) that divides most areas apart in the country, also high class Italians are very corrupt.
I totally do that. The south conquers northern Tunisia and forms the kingdom of the three Sicilies. Venice stays independent. The papal states sort of become a secular republic in the middle. And the north creates another state that borders on the occitania empire, the rheinland, and bavaria-austria.
holy fuck, this is the most cursed and beautiful map i've seen with my eyes
"Put Israel in Madagascar"
Israel: No.
Madagascar: NO.
Germany: Yes
Put it in the American desert
@@kv4648put it in Texas.
Put it in The Moon
I cant believe he sneaked in among us in the aral sea
I think you should do some videos exploring a concept you mentioned in passing: an Africa with (some) borders that are along ethnic, rather than colonial, lines. Or, borders that have been set by powerful African groups-for example, a “Masiland.” Also, love your “as it should be” comment re. Switzerland.
Survival/ Restoration of Musa's Mali Kingdom?
@@cerebrummaximus3762 Been there, done that.
But more as kind of federation, because lots of different people live there.
Byzantine empire surviving is the best alternate history in my opinion
We are like three battles (simplified a lot) away from living in that reality, for the better or worse
2:52 Texas is one of three states to be an independent nation for a long period of time. The other two are Hawaii and Vermont. Vermont, was a self-declared independent nation from 1777 to 1791 when it became a US state. It had it's own laws, constitution, army, and government. Though it always wanted to be it's own state within the USA but just couldn't for a long time since New York who claimed the land of the Green Mountain state vetoed its entry.
And Hawaii was a sovereign kingdom for many decades
To be fair, at the time Hawaii had a distinct culture at the time, & Vermont was virtually a blip note
@@AntiOkieProtectionsquad Vermont was independent for 14 years, was deeply involved with the American Revolution and became the first country (albeit an unrecognized one) to abolish slavery
@@jameskowanko7574 That may be true, but the Vermont Rep. did little, and had little to no impact on the North American Continent, unlike Texas (Which is a big state which caused the Mexican US war) or Hawaii (which had a long history & rich culture), with even a lot of Vermonters not knowing their country's history.
Also Vermont was basically a part of the USA
Don't forget that California was sort of independent for about 3 weeks between them declaring independence from Mexico and the US forces coming in.
drinking game: every time Possible History says "popular", take a drink.
Thank you all for watching! This was probably my most labor intensive video in terms of visual editing, but I really enjoyed making it and hope to continue with the "slowly filling in blank map" style in future video's. As always, please like and comment to help this video grow, and consider subscribing for at least 1 (alternate) history video every single week!
Link to the original post by TheMexicanHistorian:
www.reddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/comments/tftz80/the_most_cliche_map_possible_every_alternate/
Thank you Pon Hub
2nd comment
What if Saudi Arabia was colonised?*
What if the Song Dynasty industrialized?
What if Capitalism never existed?
What if the Hundred Days Reform succeeded?
What if the Kingdom of Madagascar still existed today?
What if the Ethiopian Empire industrialized and still existed today?
What if Latin America was Wealthy and developed? (like Canada, Western Europe, the USA and Australia)
What if the Grand Duchy of Lithuania still existed?
What if Europe adopted Manichaeism instead of Christian?
What if the Kingdom of Finland still existed today?
What if the King-Crane Commission plan succeeded?
Chilean here. The most respectful alternate history I've seen of my country is in Xcom 2, where Argentina, Brazil and the countries in between merge and create New Chile. I don't know if this changes by region. If someone played it and remembers those details, I will thank you.
What do you think about the shape of your your borders?
@@deiansalazar140 It is a madness, but understand that everything is explained in multiple ways: because the people in charge in the years 1830 - 1850 just focus in develoment in this part because Las Cordilleras de los Andes are really dangerous to croos. The confusing separation with Argentina, made by the spanish, and finally, because literally every piece in this country was fight and defended against the people that was here first (also called Mapuches), and they REALLY FIGHT BACK THE CONQUERORS. And that is all I can think now. Thanks for reading, and sorry for my english, I dont have access to google translator right noe.
"Switerland is just Switzerland. As it should be"
*Y E S*
2:54 Vermont and Hawaii enjoyed longer times as independent states as well!
This is actually a surprising independence movement on the west coast, specifically the pacific northwest with the cascadia movement.
If the US were to collapse, california and cascadia joining together doesn't seem too far fetched.
There was an IRL proposal not so long ago to split Calfornia into 3 states. One would be named after Silicon Valley, and the people from there would be Siliconites. It should happen for that reason aloe.
Very neat video, love your improvements in animations
This video has been claimed by the Panama Pact, you are now required to make a video about Revolution Plowed the Sea to keep the Mexican Historian ball rolling on the channel
"Switzerland is just Switzerland"
Always as be
19:43 You can the secret final cliche, what if New Zealand didn’t exist.
Great Video once more! Very realistic alternate history yes yes xD
Bruh, my alt history has SO MANY of these tropes in it. I do find it fun to try to find reasons and justifications for so many tropes even saving the USSR just so it can be destroyed later in the timeline only for it to return as a half communist half putinist regime so the timeline can enter a fallout scenario in 2077.
“What will the world be like in 2077?”
What the name of your time line
@@RemiBoyz The Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics falls due to Gorbachev being shot and nearly dying in September 2001, this is when Boris Yeltsin sees his opportunity to take over the USSR but he decides to shape it in his own image and make it a capitalist state called the Union of Sovereign States. This pisses off a lot of people as he effectively over ruled the Supreme Soviet so the nation splits appart with communists overrunning Moscow, Volgograd and St Petersburg. The remaining states that chose to remain in 1991 leave the union (remaining semi democratic communist) this is when Putin (who stayed in the KGB) sees his opportunity to gain more government power and leads the more popular Gorbachev loyalist faction in the civil war. Eventually Yeltsin has to flee to vladivostok and siberia falls into anarchy for nearly a decade.
In january 2021, the capital riot goes nation wide causing the USA to collapse into a semi warlord period. This gives Putin the chance to unite with the remaining communist states to form the Eurasian Union. In 2029 the US is reunited by a right wing militaristic government and quickly works to rebuild America's influence. However in America's absence the Fough French Empire and the Second German Empire formed a European Federation soon followed by the Imperium Romanus joining in 2026 and the Commonwealth of Nations united into its own federation.
China was free to increase its influence and by 2034 had formally established the Asian People's Republic. Eventually the European Federation falls after a very costly war against the Arab League in the 2040s. They were defending the republic of Carthage from the league as well as trying to take more oil from the middle east. From the ashes of the federation, eastern nations such as Poland, Hungary and Dacia would join Eurasia as this form of socialism was becoming more and more popular with the struggling populations of Europe. Eventually the Commonwealth of Nations would also fracture when the new US would invade Canada to take the alaskan oil drills (Canada owns Alaska in this timeline) and the UK would have to put down a very strong socialist uprising in Northern England. In 2066 Asia and Euasia try to invade american occupied alaska and the war continues for 11 years absolutely draining all participants.
So by 2071,the surviving democratic Nations banded together as the second league of nations. However when the imperium romanus fell in 2073 there were countless proxy wars in the former provinces as well as a *clone legion* storming Athens for about a month. (That was just for fun) eventually the second league of nations joins the war on America's side after Eurasia occupies eastern anatolia.
And by October 23rd 2077, the first nukes are fired, and the world is almost destroyed in just 2 hours.
@@juwonakindele8584 idk, I just call it "a bit of everything".
It started with me wondering what would have happened in the Justinian Plague never happened and eastern Rome was able to hold on to italia and africa. Then I added what of the Kalmar Union survived. Then I added what if the second french empire survived. Then that extended to the second Mexican empire, the Brazilian empire, Gran Colombia as well as Peru-Bolivia but as a modern Inca Empire!
Then i wanted the Confederate states of america to win the war and form the golden circle with mexico and gran colombia only to be destroyed in ww1 and the surviving dixie republic to turn fascist in ww2 and be defeated again. Then I fought for the fun of it what if the soviet union survived but had a much cooler death in 2001. It got out of hand really quickly!
It’s fascinating how this helps you understand these nations better, it’s a pretty cool hahaha
I think the west coast of America might be from Kaiserreich (the hoi4 mod) as the Pacific states of America
No, the trope for an independent west Coast came from Fallout New Vegas, where one of the nations that emerged from the nuclear ashes of the United States was the NCR or New California Republic, the only bastion of the old world values of liberty and Democracy. This would make more sense as the NCR is a an actual independent state in that game, whereas the PSA is an opposing government but still claims to be the USA and also Fallout New Vegas is, and was way more popular than Kaiserreich
@@toxicatgaming4880 ackchually NCR goes way back to Fallout 1, dating it's idea's creation to be 1998 instead of 2012 or whatever the year Van Buren was written in
@@The-jy3yq you're right bro, mb
3:14 I think it’s cause they were once a part of the Mexican empire, and in this case they have a national identity
Small errors for Siam and Malaysia :
If Siam expanded it's region to the south, then Malaysia won't exist as Tunku Abdul Rahman, the first Malaysian PM who has all the ideas of forming the nation, was born in Kedah. Whilst in this alternate history map, Kedah became part of Thailand
So Tunku Abdul Rahman would likely either serve for Siam or pioneered the separatist movements in the souths as they're Malays. And Malaysia would most likely became part of Indonesia (a bit beneficial point here)
It's stupid for everyone thinking that Thailand should have more land in the south when they can't handle the southern conflict and Pattani separatists
It's alternate history, there can be an alternate gormation of Indonesia and/or an alternate life for Tunku Abdul.
Vermont had a much longer period of independence than Texas. It was it's own republic independent from the US and Britain for 14 years before finally becoming the 14th state. Look up the green mountain boys
now i'd like to see people from that timeline try to make our timeline via predictions
I'm working on a graphic novel set in an alternate, more advanced 1989 that's one part alternate history and two parts space opera. The biggest trope I've got in my map is the East African Federation, but I thought it made sense and I wanted to build some powerful nations in Africa and South America since this world has more technology, and trades with advanced aliens.
In my story the US is a bit larger too, with parts of northern Mexico, half of British Columbia, and a total of fifty five states
Hawaii was also independent at one time. Depending on which definition you use it goes from a few decades to a century.
I would very much like to see an alt-history scenario similar to Nicea in ante bellum; that is, a strong greek anatolian state but it gradually develops their own culture seperately so that it's not easilly recognizable to have the same origins to the naked eye. Sort of how the balkan slavs changed drastically from each other but keeping a vaguely similar culture and language.
I think in terms of breaking the west coast off probably has to do with the fact that much of the coast thinks they could do much more without the rest of the country (online of course), and the rest of the country tends to think things could he done better without the west coast.
California would actually do pretty well as independent nation. They have the economy and population.
And California used to be independent for a short while between their independence from Mexico and the US invasion.
I always find it abit funny that my country,Malaysia usually remains more or less the same in alt history map,I guess we’re not that relevant compared to our neighbors,then again we are mouth more stable after independence compared to Indonesia or Vietnam tho I could see an alternate scenario where Sarawak and North Borneo never join us/annex by Indonesia/independence or Singapore remained in Malaysia or Brunei joined the federation.
Meanwhile, as an Indonesian, I am yet to find an alternate history map where Indonesia just stays as it is, instead of it falling apart or gobbling up its neighbours.
@@dpr9921 true lol,I can't remember how many times East Malaysia and Brunei was annexed by Indonesia in alt history
@@dpr9921 To be fair, Indonesia has so many ethnic groups and languages and is spread over a lot of islands, so splitting it up doesn't seem too far fetched. I'm even doing the same with Germany and Italy.
I was surprised seeing the Baltics be a part of Germany, thought it'd be part of the USSR, but like explained, there was a lot of Germans in the Baltics states, particularly in the nobility classes.
Both had big influence in the area. But I usually give it to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Except for Estonia, which goes together with Funland.
I'm surprised this map didn't include a unified central Asia named Turkestan, it's the most common thing ever
Your videos are awesome!
2:53 Texas was only independent for 10 years, while Vermont was independent for 14. #vermontawareness
But California was for only 3
weeks, not years, weeks
As a geo-history nerd from Europe, I love this map.
5:45 _"scandinavians nations are individually rather weak"_
Gustavus Adophus rolls on his grave whenever this bit plays out
Good map, but there's a few more cliches I thought of as I was watching that could work on this map.
1. Eritrea being part of Ethiopia.
2. Iraqi Khuzestan.
3. Independent Somaliland.
4. Washington state being Canadian.
5. Far East / Sakha state in Siberia.
6. United Borneo, or Philippines taking a bite out of the Northern part of the island.
And as far as big ass African lakes go, me personally I would've brought back Lake Mega-Chad and rename it to Lake Gigachad.
To your question about breakaway California, it's called Cascadia and has been a proposed breakaway state consisting of British columbia, Washington, oragon and california. It has its own flag and is still being pushed in some circles but has not of course gotten critical mass. It's considered an ideal state do to the shared cultural identity and values we have on the west coast
17:57 Actually, there was indeed a proposal about creating a Jewish state in Madagascar but it was Hitlers government who came up with that scenario, they simply wanted jews transported far away from their so called "Aryan" Europe.
GREAT VID BTW
The less brutal version. Like what Denmark did when they had to "solve the jew problem": they just put them on a ship to Sweden. Which was good enough for the germans.
People give Denmark shit for surrendering in 6 days, but they sort of did everything right. Not being trouble meant the Reich didn't have to put some military governor in power and they could run their day-to-day government pretty much like before.
Which is actually how many empires in ancient times did it. Accept the hegemony and don't be trouble, and you can pretty much continue as before. Even Rome was happy as long as you paid your taxes and didn't plan a revolt. Local government was often done by local people because they knew the culture and how to deal with things.
Why don't people talk more about what if France didn't lose french America it's such an interesting scenario yet its do underrated
Why? Local population was tiny. Even if France got back Quebec and Haiti, they would need British/Canadian asisstance to sustain and maintain this states.
History could really change if France conquered Mexica instead.
@@alexzero3736 Why? Because you love big brolick black men giving you backshots
This map is just Kaiserreich mixed with a Victoria 2 game
A scenario i always thought about that isn't discussed by many people is this:
What if Rome invested more on steam engines.
They were really close, i don't think the Romans would suddenly go to the battlefield with rifles (because gunpowder would still take a while to be discovered)
But what would've definitely happened is this:
The Roman navy would basically be unstoppable, even if the designs would've taken a while to reach the quality of the Victorian era it still would be vastly superior to any other sea sailing civilization out there.
The infrastructure in Rome would also improve drastically, small fortifications would turn into hugely populous regions, this would most likely happen because of migrants from rular villages moving to industrial cities, it happened to every European nation during the industrial revolution.
Rome would actually fall anyways, BUT the successor states that Rome would leave behind would be pretty advanced, the discovery of the Americas would (probably) happened much earlier as well.
This sounds cool until you do some digging and find out that the Roman's didnt have any use of steam engines, due to a lack of strong metal to work with, meaning that an oxen would have been more efficient at moving stuff.
They didn't have the metallurgy to make steam engines (knowing that pressurised steam moves things is not "nearly there"), and they had abundant slaves. They didn't have the means or the motive.
As fun as Roman Moon colonies in our 1200's sound.
@@worldcomicsreview354 Ave True to Caesar but it's Rome, not Fallout
This works only under the scenario in which the roman academia is funded and sposored by the state. They would have to research and develop many fields in order to bring the industrial revolution. Namely one of the most important ones is the production of industrial steel, which was a key component in the development of machinery. That is for example the reason of why the first industrial steam machines made in the 17th century by the spanish researcher Jeronimo de Ayanz didn`t have the same success as the british models 2 centuries later.
With a nudge in the right direction they would totally use them to get water uphill.
Made a few alternate history maps a while back, somehow managed to avoid all of these cliches.
massive lake in Africa also happens (exactly like this) in The New Order - a popular mod for hearts of iron 4 which is set in a world where Germany had already won world war 2
The whole time I thought ''most of those cliches are eurocentrist and most likely americans'' and I ended up right lol. This is exactly what happens when you put random americans across the internet with little to no idea about the outside world a map and tell them to make it ''cool and historical, alternative''
Europe is filled with tropes popular to many (but not all) Europeans, so it's not entirely American-centric. The Imperial Federation is common amongst monarchist/imperialist alt.history nerds; divided Spain is pretty common; greater Greece and greater Bulgaria are probably what they dream of; independent Kurdistan seems not very America-centric. I can't judge for the rest of the world. Central Powers won WW1 is a common trope, most nationalists are fond of. North-Madagascar Israel is a trope I personally have never heard of, but sounds cool as heck.
I find this very interesting, partly due to me writing an alt history as a backdrop for a magic earth setting.
(I am considering some of the obvious chlichés) and I am also trying to see of the 2 methods for magic each country outside Europe will have.
More like Nordic Union because Scandinavia is just Denmark, Sweden, Norway and northern Finland; all of those plus Iceland, Greenland and (southern) Finland are Nordics. Meanwhile Karelia and the Kola Peninsula are Russian territories that are included because there is such thing as “Big Finland” (I personally love it). It’s a common mistake, hope this helped you.
I am a really big fan of you, keep up the good work! 5:43
As someone who lives on the west coast of the US, I think the cliché stems from cultural/socio-political differences. The west coast is generally much more progressive and left leaning than some of its neighboring states.
I think that the part with Egypt is a reference to Muhammed Ali Pasha, the man who conquered Sudan and basically made Egypt a de facto Empire.
An independent Newfoundland is popular here on the island due to peoples disdain towards the Canadian government post confederation. The moment the timeline splits is in 1949 where the pro responsible government faction beats the pro confederation faction, there are also other splits where Newfoundland becomes a state in the United states either in 1949 or after independence, and even more obscure is Newfoundland staying British.
I've never heard of the timeline of Newfoundland being in a nordic union, usually Estonia is added into the union due to their close ties with Finland.
Another common trope is one where the Romanov family survives and is sent to Alaska instead, something that could've been included in the Alaska section of the video.
Great video still.
Great video bro, can't wait for our collaboration this week!
As somebody who lives in Oregon, the northern region of the western united states, we here feel much more culturally close to other americans on the west coast then we do of even closer americans on the other side of the rockies. The reason its a trope is due to cultural similarity amongst the coastal states.
You missed new zeland not existing
Context: in many maps posted on reddit new zeland ceases to exist
Great map and video although...
I am missing the trope of the Netherlands owning all water, but i guess that that is to close to real life to be considered alternate history.
Nice maps! Like you Britain holds the more populated yemen when real foreign policy focused on oman, well because theres less people and it facilities trade better
i saw a couple people already talk about where the california independence thing comes from, but id say you could argue a 'west coast republic' would be a little more accurate if it ever did happen, oregon washington and california are all pretty left leaning states politically (not too sure about washington but def oregon and california) so if california broke off i'd guess oregon would likely join, as to why it's such a popular trope i think california feels a bit 'bigger' than the other states, not just in terms of land size but with it's agriculture, huge tech industry, the media industry (hollywood/music/ect)
3 weeks
that's how long Cali was independent 4
Now i want to see this as a Hearts of Iron 4 mod
Saaaaaaame.
Pleasant watch! Quite surprising that many were fit in lol
I really like using those cliches. But often in a slightly different version.
- Like rebuilding the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
- Germany being successfully big, but not as a united country. (So independent Prussia, the Austrian-Bavarian kingdom, etc)
- Also one of my favorites is the Kingdom of the Three Sicilies (southern Italy, the island of Sicily, and northern Tunesia)
- Independent Occitania is also fun.
- Then obviously a not so unified US
- A split India with a separate Dravidian south and Hyderabad
- A Berber state and a new Mali empire
- Independent Scotland and Wales
- The new nordic viking union (which includes Neufoundland).
- Obviously a split Belgium
- New Venice Republic
- Spain looks like a rainbow with basically every former kingdom continuing
- Africa in general is more along cultural lines and not along colonial borders.
- South, central and western asia is also closer to cultural than colonial borders.
One of the main reasons the Californian states are independent and why the french collonies are independent/monarchists is because of the kaiserreich mod of hoi4
Chile's borders are good from modern perspective
Amazing video
i have my own alternate history timeline going and i've been doing it for quite a while now for fun. Glad to see mine only has 3 of these cliches
I hate how people thinks that Catalonia, Galicia or the Basque Country are unique to the rest of Spain, Spain is a multicultural country, there's no "Spanish culture", there's Andalusians, Asturians, Leonese, Castillians, Basques, Galicians, Aragonese, Valencian, Catalan and Estremaduran cultures, so it is quite unrealistic that only those 3 "chosen" regions would get independence and Spain stay united, it would be either total collapse or total union.
Which of these groups you mentioned speak Spanish or a similar language and which don't?
@@hendriktonisson2915 Andalusians and Castillians speak Spanish, and it's their original language, while the vast majority of Leoneses, Estremadurans and Aragoneses speak Spanish at home, but years ago they spoke their languages. And obviously the languages of the Iberian Peninsula are very similar, except Basque obviously, they all descend from vulgar latin.
Lo de la multiculturalidad parece que es algo que los hispanos entendemos bien, no mejor que todos pero si que algunos.
@@delarrick9138 Como No lo vamos a entender, nuestro país tiene una gran variedad de culturas y aún así la gran mayoría nos sentimos españoles, lo que hace tan rica a España son sus culturas y lenguas.
Pacific States of America. From Kaiserreich. How can you be an alt history CZcamsr and *not* be intimately familiar with Kaiserreich?
Because it sucks
@@leris7697for real, I played it and it's decent but the Devs removed everything fun about it in the name of "realism" and most the countries need major reworks but those reworks take so damn long that people regularly ask what reworks are being worked on because they take so long, the Kaiserreich devs don't even have an excuse for it either because the devs of OWB regularly and reliably produce content for a mod that is a total overhaul of the everything that HOI4 is.
It is also way more likely the trope of an independent west coast came from Fallout New Vegas with the NCR or New California Republic
@@toxicatgaming4880 That's not alt history though. I mean you could probably make twisted arguments to shove that square peg through the round hole but no, the shape isn't NCR territory though it's the shape of the Pacific States.
Kaiserreich (both as an alt hist concept and as a mod for HOI3 way before HOI4) was around for years before FNV released and was popular in alt hist circles at the time.
The NCR was introduced in Fallout 2 anyway but the borders are much different and just no lol. One is alt hist, popular within the alt hist community, the other is a post apocalyptic future state (and no, it diverging doesn't make it alt hist) that doesn't interact or war with historical nations. Yeah no sorry lmao.
@@chemputer Doesn't matter that it's not alt history. It just needs to exist and be popular. Kaiserreich and hoi in general has been a very niche group and still is, you could walk outside and ask random strangers what hoi or Kaiserreich is and get no response, and I say this as a die hard fan of both, there is literally hardly any argument to be made, FNV and probably even Falllout 2 were way more popular than Hoi4 or Kaiserreich, and the PSA is literally just a civil war faction that either dies or wins the ACW but it's never an independent state from the American national identity. FNV, the most loved fallout game is definitely remembered and known by way more people than Kaiserreich ever was, or will be and the NCR also fits the ideal of an independent California based on California alone, not the dead American identity and does not claim to be a successor to the US government either, it doesn't matter if borders are different either, just because people decide to make their borders for their fictional country differently doesn't mean It wasn't inspired by the NCR, the most popular example of an independent California in any form of media ever. Kaiserreich's influence is like child's play compared to the massive influence that Fallout has and it is self explanatory that the most popular one of the two will be the one that inspires people. Saying Kaiserreich is the inspiration is as close to factually incorrect as an opinion can get as far as I can tell