Thank you Mr. Pete for this video, it is so important for people like me that do not have access to expensive instrument, I got surprised with banggood's instrument quality.
@nick f If I was messing around on my spare time now and then I would of bought something like the banggood. Twenty years ago I purchased a Swiss Compac witch was the right choice at the time. Everyone has different needs. There are alot of hobbyists that couldn't justify purchasing a tesa. We all know that we are taking a gamble when buying entry level tooling.
For home shops they look fine. Understanding lifetime expectancy etc still good value for some people. I would be happy with a chinese one for home use as I can spend left over money on other useful tools. If i got to the point i was using it daily or needed higher accuracy then I would get a brand name one. I had a chinese dial indicator that was stickey when new but freed up with a little use and if fine for what I need. There is always budgetory constraints so nice to know that the cheap ones can give decent accuracy.
I always “try” to buy USA made tools and occasionally the older manufactured quality Japanese made tools. That said, I have some Chinese stuff in my shop as well. I have found that all my tools are way more accurate then I am no matter where it was made.
When it comes to indicators, the swiss have and still have the top quality, Japan has some respectable entrys, and China is last. For those saying they can't afford interapid so are thinking this will do, I suggest you look at prices on good condition earlier swiss indicators like Compac, and Alina, and Tesatast. How about a swiss made Brown & Sharpe "Besttest", I've seen those sell used for $40. Save your pennies, and by a time tested indicator that will last you years as long as you dont drop it!
@@stevewatr Interapid are the benchmark for dial indicators. I've been a machinist for 25 years and it's absolutely the most widely trusted in our shop. There are others of course.. But when it absolutely needs to be dead nuts on.. We use a Interapid.
The B&S maybe suffering from non use. The oil may have become gummy inside. Swiss made is usually very good quality. Banggood is improving the quality of their products. Great demo. Great edutainment.
Bravo! Telling me everything of interest in a clear & concise manner. Just what I needed in my little break from hand hay turning & raking. Thank you for sharing!
When the Brown and Sharpe measured wrong, I thought, maybe, swap ends to see if it followed the block or stayed with the gage. Thanks for this. Now, I have more fun stuff to do...
The error in the B&S indicator may just be attributed to the length of the test probe. Put in another length and you will see the accuracy change. You have had this for a long time maybe the test probe is not the original or not set to the correct length. If you expect 1% accuracy, the length of the test probe better be 99.5% correct. Let's put accuracy in perspective here. The most common application for test indicators like this is to indicate and adjust for zero run-out in a 4 jaw chuck or indicate a hole or a boss in a part or fixture. Both depend on seeking zero needle movement. Accuracy is not a factor. You could easily use a dial with only one mark at zero. Of course there are some applications where you are trying to make an actual numeric measurement where the accuracy does mater. Flatness or squareness might be among them but even then you are most likely interested in a zero reading for perfect flatness or squareness. There is no reason to believe these will ever wear out given the tiny forces involved and the occasional use in a home shop. Your test proves this is not trash but outperforms B&S. Given the decade difference in cost you can afford to replace it every 20 years of so if it ever needs it. You can also keep a spare on hand in case you crash it or drop it. An expensive indicator will smash just as easily as a cheap one and it hurts more when it does. You can spend what you save on other stuff you need. Much of the made in America stuff is actually made in China or made from parts from China. A lot of the name brand stuff is made in the same factory alongside the generic brands. All of the name brand battery power tools are made in the same place in China. The difference is the color of the plastic outside and the label. As far as Made in USA is concerned, for most that ship has already sailed.
NYCCNC toured that Starrett factory... they design, machine and assemble literally every conceivable part of almost everything they sell. You're saying that Starrett also makes the parts in a Banggood indicator? Lmfaoooo!
@@dregenius Ummm ... for example Starrett dial calipers are made in china... Besides that, they have cheapened them for a good number of years past, anyway. In short... they suck. I'd never buy Starrett Calipers now or even when they started cheapening the 15 or years ago. Secondly JOHN YOUNGQUIST didn't say Starrett makes any part in a Banggood indicator IF YOU BOTHER READING !!.
JOHN YOUNGQUIST Some of which you are correct concerning made in china. But a lot of tools for machinist that I buy I would NEVER EVER consider if made in china: taps dies -- you'd have to be a fool to risk your part you've worked on with many previous operations, to a cheap chinese tap or die just to save a few bucks !! -- same with reamers, and for me personally, drills as well. i buy Japanese, German, or US taps and dies. Or in Model Engineering I buy English made taps and dies. As a second point the outfit Long Island Indicator Co. (old time Swiss folks instrument repair) attest that B&S Bestest is the most rugged you can buy. So I keep at least one Bestest. Actually I've accumulated 3 more through the years. Didn't cost me a fortune just have to keep your eyes peeled. I got them for something like 20% -50% retail. You say: >>"Given the decade difference in cost you can afford to replace it every 20 years of so if it ever needs it. You can also keep a spare on hand in case you crash it or drop it.">> What if by chance you damage the crappy one and also the crappy spare ? Right in the middle of a job where it is critically needed ? Not to mention, you say the crappy one will last 20 years ?? Hmmm.. I doubt that. 2 maybe. Knock yourself out ! Keep buying crappy !
One thing that has always confounded me is the position of the indicator point on "test" indicators. As I understand it the indicator point may be moved about 12 degrees from the "straight" that is horizontal or vertical, and the instrument will still read within tolerance. Guess I'm fishing for a comment about this. If I get within 0.001" (+ or - 0.0005") I feel I am at the limit of my skill level and within the capability of my machinery. Hats off to those true precision machinists! Thanks for this video.
Hello Geoff, what you're referring to is cosine error. It has to do with the angle of the indicator arm in relation to the tool. It's a trig issue. Keep in mind that for comparative use it doesn't matter.
Hi there Mr Pete, Back in the 1970/80s I worked a precision grinding m/c ( a Cincinnati universal) I used to grind tooling & we used Tesa Swiss made, if I was doing same job today, I would still use Tesa, however home machine shop, china is fine, very interesting video, from Coventry UK.
I like these cheap stuff review videos. Thanks! I'm just interested if it moves freely without any issues. For me as a hobbyist it seems to be more than good and I'll leave 200$ indicators for professionals.
Good morning Mr Pete and thank you for the edutainment to go with my coffee! Have a good day.....and keep on enjoying those auctions I wish they had more of them in the south.
Mr. Pete, there are two possible sources of cosine error in your setup, but you only accounted for one of them (using the square to insure the indicator is perfectly vertical). The other source of cosine error would be present if the pivot axis of the indicator lever is not on the same horizontal plane as the little ball at the end of the lever. In other words, when you zeroed out the indicators, both levers must be perfectly horizontal. When this error is present, the indicator will read higher than it should, which is what I see on the B&S. I am a mathematician, so I understand cosine errors. From the video, it is difficult to see whether the levers for both indicators started out horizontally. I could be wrong here, but might be worth a redo. Also, I grew up in Providence, RI, original home of B&S. I'd hate to think that B&S is anything but top quality. :)
@@jimmysyar889 I agree. Just like I don't know why a 5 star restaurant chef would know any more about making eggs benedict than someone who took a basic cooking class. LOL
tzampini well that has nuances to it and is quite complicated. This is more exact and once you understand it you can’t understand it more. For example a mathematician wouldn’t know how to add two numbers together more correct than me because once you know how to do it that’s it.
@@jimmysyar889 I suppose you make a good point. However, perhaps you do not see the "nuances" associated with cosine error precisely because you are not (I assume) a mathematician. Clearly, Mr. Pete, as brilliant a machinist and teacher as he is, and whom I have the utmost respect for, and who I'm sure has at least a basic understanding of mathematics (and probably a lot more than basic), missed some aspects of cosine error. I was just pointing out these nuances, not to criticize Mr. Pete, but to add information for anyone reading these comments. We all miss things at times. When I miss something or get something wrong, I welcome when someone else corrects me. Because I certainly am far from perfect.
Thank you Lyle, I enjoyed the comments as much as the video you presented. As a repairman, I used test indicators to set up machine tools, correct mechanical error following machine crashes, calibration linear position against inspection grade machine standards typically working to .0001" accuracy and repeatability, etc. My favorite and most trusted test indicators are Starrett, B&S, and Mitotoya. I have a BesTest .00005" that is a delight to use. Most CNC repair doesn't require that resolution, but I purchased it so I could repair and maintain a CNC gear grinder. I value quality over low cost. In my book, Mitotoya and B&S offer the most consistent indicator quality for moderate cost. I probably own 40 quality indicators, so I am not tempted with the Banggood option. There probably aren't many hobbyists watching your channel that NEED higher performance than the import that you tested, but I can't yield to the temptation even though my machine tools are too old to out perform your import indicator... But possibly better machines are in my future!!!!
At 2:15 you can clearly see that the Brown&Sharpe is "swiss made", just like the Tesa. Every country is capable of producing whatever level of quality they've set their mark on. If a Chinese company produced Tesa-like quality indicators, they could probably sell them for half the price; that's not enough to convince buyers looking for the ultimate in quality. So, Chinese manufacturers settle for "almost as good", but they sell their indicators for 10% of the Tesa price. A consequence of this is that machinists are split into two blocks: those who can measure deviations beyond the capability of their machines and/or their skills - and are poor to boot - and those with basically the same problem but are a bit richer, because they chose Banggood over Tesa. Don't get me wrong: I love quality as much as anyone. I do have a Tesa indicator, and it's just silky smooth, perfectly accurate, a joy to behold. But I have it only because I had the chance to buy it at a bargain price from an eBay source. Had I have to pay 200 dollars for it, I would never have bought it: I'd have got the Banggood one and spent the saved money in something else. In any case, I think test dial indicators are fairly useless as a measurement tool. They can only really be used to check equality, not difference. A pivoting probe will always suffer from cosine error, even for small angles. If your goal is to check for parallelism or flatness, they work fine, but if you want precise measurement, switch to a dial indicator, a micrometer, gauge blocks, height gauges or interferometry.
I grew up with very little money to put toward good tools. A file and hammer were my precision instruments. A quarter thou variation on items coming out of my basement shop is good enough
Odd that the Banggood one read perfect at .110", when tested against the Brown and Sharp, but off a whisker, when tested against the Tesa. I'm wondering if the gauge blocks are a hairsbreadth out of parallel, and the stack of blocks got turned 180 degrees, between the first and second test?
Heat from your fingers can expand metal more than you would imagine. Best practice is to handle the blocks as little as you can, preferably with tongs, and to let them normalize(become the same temp) on the surface plate before the test. czcams.com/video/eX7yDFYb3DE/video.html
Well the BrnShrp is 20 years old and a cleaning and calibration will help. The BngGd is very well a decent gauge for most everything I do. I own several. The TstTa is very Good. I only had 1 instance in which i needed to be right on. A very key for High end Jewelry Cases, the key cost was $200.00 each. I made 4 for a friend for $40.00 dollars total out of Aluminum scrap. I Used a Starrett, new in the Box 10 years old. Great Video. I trust your integrity and really like this Video. Maybe a Starrett next time. The Other Red box. 😇
Sir, You might want to check the documentation on your B&S dti. It is my understanding that they are engineered to read accurately when the tip arm is at 12 degrees to the surface. This would, of course, mean your "zero" was off from the get-go. At least that's how I understand it.
That is interesting, I’m fortunate I traded for a Mitutoyo one years ago that I use. Like you said most of the time I’m using an test indicator to show either parallelism or run out. Like centering a round object or bore in a mill.
I appreciate videos like this and find the information very helpful. Although I would love to be able to buy all American made tools it simply is not in my budget being retired and a hobby machinist. Future videos comparing Chinese vs expensive tooling etc. would be great. Thank you!
MR. Pete, Thank you for this vid. Great as always. Thank you for explaining the basics as you go along. You can retire the teacher but you can't remove the qualities out of the teacher (I know that is not well written but I think you get my point).
Another great video! The comments about China made pretty much sum up the differences: they are only as good as the specifications they build to; and they can make them cheaper because the labor is cheaper. It looks like a decent product for the price point, and while long term accuracy may fail, for us home gamers I think no problem. Besides, these are almost allways used as a comparator, not an absolute measurement. I thought all test indicators had an operating spec for the angle of the probe to the measured surface, like 12-15 degrees, so you can reach into/over a part and not have the shaft make contact part way up toward the pivot. This spec varies from maker to maker, and because of cosine factor (in this case not error if you use the correct angle) the indication would change by a slight amount. It looked to me the B&S started out darn near horizontal at 1.000, and may even have the shaft touching the stack for the 1.020. Of course not at the angle I was viewing from could I say for sure. Thanks again for another great video!
Mr. Pete, the test that I'd like to see is measuring concentricity on a lathe. The internal components of the indicator must be completely free of defects to provide smooth dynamic readings and this is where differences in long term accuracy are revealed. Set them up on a gauge pin rotating at about 60 RPM with .020 runout and let them work for an hour (this will equate to a lifetime of use by a hard working machinist). I'm predicting that the expensive Swiss made test indicator will prove it's value over the inexpensive gauge. but I might be wrong : )
The thing that lets them down are the little dovetail clamps. They don't last very well. It's pretty easy to make a nice replacement out of steel though. BTW I love that scriber!
Thank you for the video! I wonder whether the B&S had been dropped between 1998 and 2019. Excellent idea to check your measuring instruments! One wording nit: the dials are graduated, not calibrated. Graduations here are at 0.0005" increments. Calibration is checking something against a standard of reference and adjusting to accuracy. The thing to remember about Chinese imports: anyone remember when the Japanese produced cheap junk? Then they changed, and now they produce world-class products. There is no physical law preventing the Chinese from doing the same thing, over time. In the meantime, if it cost 1/10th the price of an American, German or Japanese product, that savings came from somewhere. Be it cheap labor, automation, low-quality materials (whatever came out of the scrap-melting furnace that day, and it takes expensive power and furnace time to fully melt that scrap, mix it and make it uniform, and longer for what is poured to cool. Hey, I know -- let's pour as soon as it *looks* melted!), novice / fewer design engineers, motors are intermittent-duty instead of continuous-duty, lighter-weight frames, soft metal in the nuts and bolts (easier to form Play-Doh than Grade 8 steel)... Maybe it's good enough for what you are doing, maybe it isn't. Quality will cost more and be harder to make. Sometimes a quality *reputation* is no longer justified. There can also be games played; one thing that happened in electronics is that the first few items produced - that would be heavily inspected - used good parts. Then they start substituting less expensive parts (though any Purchasing department might do this - make sure your specs are adequate, because the purchaser may have no idea what matters and they found a lower price). You are a CZcams reviewer; did you get a specially selected item, or are they all this accurate? At first, before wear sets in. Might be great for hobbyists and suck for businesses.
I think a little more testing was in order- rotate the sample and allow the gauges to check each other. Regardless, it's quite interesting, although I'll not buy anything that inexpensive. Thanks for the video.
You would have to consult the manual but it is possible the b&s indicator is calibrated to read with the stylus at an angle rather than straight out. Those indicators are really for comparative measurements and not direct reading so the real test is in how they repeat and if the readings change when you move the stand traversing the block.
I´ve a besttest for over 20 years, use it every week or so, accidently turn the spindle on once at 6k rpm the thing flown 5 meters and hit the wall, only the window of it came out, shook the dust and went back to work. amaizing dial test. i only use it to zero parts. can´t do same thing with mitutoyos. went thru 3 mitutoyos on the last 10 years.
I would agree, but it's possible to get by if you have at least one "good" reference that you can compare others too, then, as funds allow, the cheaper instruments can be replaced over time. For the home shop I don't think it's such a big problem, in an industrial setting, then yes, absolutely. Also of concern is repeatability. Have you any experience with the Girod brand instruments?
Depends on which, and who made them. I bought a few back in 1983, as well as a couple,e of mikes and calipers. All are still perfectly fine. I also have B&S, Starrett, TESA, etc. none seem to be more accurate than the other.
VERY nice. Thank you for the comparison and review!!! I would definitely buy one, but I already have two indicators, one chinese and one Swiss made... :)
Watching your review was eye opening , one must check their equipment prior to using. I was taken back regarding the Brown&Sharpe. Would you be able to inspect the internal works and service the Brown&Sharpe and do another review? I’m so new to your world of extreme accuracy verses my world of approaching accuracy having the dollar cost in the equation. I am concern for quality versa the saying ,”use me once and through away” This idea I have is to ask you to have a video from your pass experience /job you did on how you were able to quote a job? What is your thought process looking into a winning quote and making money? Speaking for myself as a carpenter, I have sub out certain areas and was still able to make a few dollars having a finish job that I was proud of. I can but only imagine that many of your subscribers look to you for advancement . Thank you, Bob
That was a very interesting demonstration and I appreciate you sharing it. As a woodworker I am looking for a way to set my jointer blades and suspect I need an indicator that is more accurate than my 75 year old eyes. But I am hesitant to buy something that may not work. Besides the indicator I would need something to hold it.
You couldn't be more wrong. It is hyper critical for checking concentrically when making tools. If I chuck up a die that has +/- .005 tolerance when I'm honing the ID and the indicator is off 3 thou I've just fucked up a $1200 die. I get it you're probably not a toolmaker and have ran machine parts all your life but don't say something stupid that blankets an entire industry when you're only experienced in a portion in that industry.
The Brown & Sharp is made in Switzerland. Under the same company as the Tesa. They also make or sell the Compac brand. I think it's their entry level line.
The only thing I would have done differently is, when there was a discrepancy between the two gauges, I would have reversed the blocks to measure in the approximate places the opposite gauge was tested.
Thank's for sharing. Not to be nitpicking, but from my view @ 8:37 of the video, the Banggood look's to be off 2 to 3 tenths of a thousandths off. Nothing wrong with that. Also at 8:53 of the video, not sure if it's the camera angle but the Tesatast looks to be off 1 maybe 2 tenths of a thousandths off, thus @ 9:09 of the video the Tesatast is right on. Again @ 9:41 of the video, the Tesatast is off, 1 maybe 2 tenths of a thousandths off. Let's face facts, if your involved in having to consider 1 maybe 2 tenths of a thousandths, your work environment would command big investments not just in tooling, but also temperature controls as well. A Banggood gauge would be more then sufficient for my needs at the home work shop, for me plus or minus 5 thousandths is close enough. I'm not building rocket ships, and the bench top piece of junk {Chinese Import} mill I have is about as close a tolerance I can keep. I will be purchasing one of these Banggood gauges. Thank you Mr. Pete.
Quite honestly I would not be able to afford to do hobby machining if it were not for cheap Chinese machinery and tools. Thank you for the interesting comparison
The B&S could have suffered some slight unnoticed damage or abuse at some point in an earlier life -- would be my guess. One has to ask: *_how long have machinists relied on Brown & Sharpe Bestest indicators ?_* The answer to that ought speak for itself.
I'll give credit where it is due, for sure. Banggood is trying their best to provide quality and value and for the most part they are delivering. I have no problem at all with using quality imported equipment in my shop. Kudos to Banggood and to you, Mr. Pete. Thanks! :-)
I bought a new Starrett large dial indicator. The subsidiary (small dial) dial is not zeroed but is slightly off. Is that a problem or can I simply adjust the hight until it reads zero and then zero the large dial ?
Interesting. I always enjoy the comparison of "good" to "cheap". It is reassuring that my cheapskate budget can sometimes not be a hindrance to accuracy. I still always try and get a good used high quality instrument, but my bank account says sorry dude, not this time. Thanks.
I think a more realistic test would be to drop them on to a concrete floor from various heights and see which one endures. 😁 If they both become unusable, then the cheaper of the 2 becomes a clear winner. I have about 10 of those digital Chinese calipers laying around my shop because that way, I always have one handy.. If I drop it and it stops working, no biggie, no crying, just go buy another.
one of the best thing about doing tests, is to publish the process publicly and seeing if others can repeat those tests and validate the results. This is how science works. I also like this video as it is a great reminder to go back and periodically check the tools you are using. Btw, religion is just relying on faith (or hope) without evidence. So you might say machining is a bit based on religion... and partially based in science. =D Happy Tuesday!
The error in the B&S may be (unless the B&S has damage, manufacturing faults, or wear conditions, most certainly is) due to the angle of the probe relative to the surface being probed. For precise comparisons the angle for the second reading must be the same as it was for the first. In this case the two angles were not equal since the height of the indicator above the surface plate was not changed, but the height of the gauge blocks did change. Say the probe length is 0.700" and the angle to read the 1.000" height is 90.00 degrees, and the angle to read the 1.010" height was 90.4 degrees. This small angle change (four tenths of a degree) will account for an indication difference of about 0.0121".
Don't remember what the cost is,, but B&S used to refurbish and calibrate their products. Patrick over @ Active Atom has the patience to rebuild stuff like that also. 🔬⏳⌛
I get good results with the old lever style indicators. My favorite is the Lufkin 199. Most of the time I never even look at the graduations but instead, just to see if the needle is moving or not. In high school, I made my first indicator out of an old pressure gauge and I still have it. It was accurate to + or - about 5 PSI! That was about .003". I got the idea from an article in Popular Mechanics
That's an interesting test, but not necessarily relevant to most usage. I would be more interested in taking a sine bar, putting a 0.1000 under one end, a 0.1050 under the other, and scanning back and forth to verify that the needle moves smoothly and detects the variation without sticking or jumping. Repeat with 0.1010 and 0.1005. I suspect, based on what I know of the internal mechanism, that the B&S indicator might have a slight backlash in its auto-reverse mechanism. Your technique should have accounted for that, but the error seemed to be a consistent 0.0005.
@mrpete22 love the videos. Keep them coming. It's hard to find common sense knowledge in this industry anymore. Everyone wants to run parts on a 5 axis and not know how to test and produce precision tooling. I've have learned over the years that when I test use at least 2 methods to test a part or tool and when you find variances find another way to test. Guys that use one indicator/mic/caliper set themselves up for failure. Have a backup in your box and check your trusty BS that never fails with your $20 Chinese indicator because one day it will.
@@mrpete222 it may highlight the gear quality in the device to see what the actual contact area on the gears is (relating to surface finish etc). If they JUST managed to make it work, it being beaten around a bit will flatten out some high spots on the brass (maybe) and showcase some quality issues. However, given that these things are treated like fabergé eggs, its a bit of a joke.
if someone actually wants to torture expensive things, I think a proper way to do it would be to set it at some fixed offset then hook it to a fast vibrator like a oscillating toothbrush so it gently sweeps over the head moving it
Cosine error is cause by the pivoting of the tip at the fulcrum. This means unless both tips are at the same angle to the gauge blocks, they are each being subjected to different amounts of cosine error. This would also be affected by tip length.
I know I'm replying to my own comment but, I think maybe the cheap Chinese indicator may be using a progressive sector arm so as long as one has the tip angle near the design angle when indicating, they would be accurate through the range. It still offers no clue into true quality or longevity. I suspect the old B&S probably doesn't have a progressive sector arm as my old Interapid most likely doesn't either. The instruction manual (which I can't find) does state an ideal angle for greatest accuracy (12 degrees, I think) and a formula for correcting for cosine error.
Main problem with Chinese indicators is rather short life span. They are accurate out the box but they start to have issues quickly. The main plus is price - they are very cheap. Also when you accidentally damage one you don't feel too bad. Damaging expensive one from US / Japan / Germany etc. is painful and makes whole day go bad.
That is why Chinese indicators are perfect for home use because they are less likely to be worn out in a non commercial setting. The real lesson of the video is check the accuracy of your tools before doing close tolerance work just looking for a "brand name is not enough".
I have a Starret Last Word that I picked up at Grandma's Attic in Marshall, Michigan. I favor antique shops that sell more high end knick knacks and furniture because they seldom bother with tools. I alway ask if they have anything in the back? Often they have items that they don't want to deal with and I help yhem get rid of them at reasonable prices. 😆 I have had it about 5 years. It is from the 60's, but still does a fine job centering items in the 4 jaw on my old South Bend 9C WorkShop Lathe. Not bad for 2 sets of indicators complete with boxes for $10.00. 😎
Thank you Mr. Pete for this video, it is so important for people like me that do not have access to expensive instrument, I got surprised with banggood's instrument quality.
I was surprised also. The build quality on the indicator was impressive no jagged edges. Every thing was nicely finished
@nick f If I was messing around on my spare time now and then I would of bought something like the banggood. Twenty years ago I purchased a Swiss Compac witch was the right choice at the time. Everyone has different needs. There are alot of hobbyists that couldn't justify purchasing a tesa. We all know that we are taking a gamble when buying entry level tooling.
For home shops they look fine. Understanding lifetime expectancy etc still good value for some people. I would be happy with a chinese one for home use as I can spend left over money on other useful tools. If i got to the point i was using it daily or needed higher accuracy then I would get a brand name one. I had a chinese dial indicator that was stickey when new but freed up with a little use and if fine for what I need. There is always budgetory constraints so nice to know that the cheap ones can give decent accuracy.
I always “try” to buy USA made tools and occasionally the older manufactured quality Japanese made tools. That said, I have some Chinese stuff in my shop as well. I have found that all my tools are way more accurate then I am no matter where it was made.
So true
When it comes to indicators, the swiss have and still have the top quality, Japan has some respectable entrys, and China is last. For those saying they can't afford interapid so are thinking this will do, I suggest you look at prices on good condition earlier swiss indicators like Compac, and Alina, and Tesatast. How about a swiss made Brown & Sharpe "Besttest", I've seen those sell used for $40. Save your pennies, and by a time tested indicator that will last you years as long as you dont drop it!
@@stevewatr Interapid are the benchmark for dial indicators. I've been a machinist for 25 years and it's absolutely the most widely trusted in our shop. There are others of course.. But when it absolutely needs to be dead nuts on.. We use a Interapid.
@@fk6823 I agree. However, a Tesa made Bestest is no slouch, and can be a great alternative for the non full time machinist on a budget.
Buying a used test gauge of even brand name is a crap shoot and you might wind up needing to have a used one serviced before using it.
The B&S maybe suffering from non use. The oil may have become gummy inside. Swiss made is usually very good quality. Banggood is improving the quality of their products. Great demo. Great edutainment.
Thanks
Bravo! Telling me everything of interest in a clear & concise manner. Just what I needed in my little break from hand hay turning & raking. Thank you for sharing!
Thanks
When the Brown and Sharpe measured wrong, I thought, maybe, swap ends to see if it followed the block or stayed with the gage. Thanks for this. Now, I have more fun stuff to do...
Yes
The error in the B&S indicator may just be attributed to the length of the test probe. Put in another length and you will see
the accuracy change. You have had this for a long time maybe the test probe is not the original or not set to the correct length.
If you expect 1% accuracy, the length of the test probe better be 99.5% correct.
Let's put accuracy in perspective here. The most common application for test indicators like this is to indicate and adjust for zero
run-out in a 4 jaw chuck or indicate a hole or a boss in a part or fixture. Both depend on seeking zero needle movement. Accuracy is not a factor. You could easily use a dial with only one mark at zero. Of course there are some applications where you are trying to make an actual numeric measurement where the accuracy does mater. Flatness or squareness might be among them but even then you are most likely interested in a zero reading for perfect flatness or squareness.
There is no reason to believe these will ever wear out given the tiny forces involved and the occasional use in a home shop. Your test proves this is not trash but outperforms B&S. Given the decade difference in cost you can afford to replace it every 20 years of so if it ever needs it. You can also keep a spare on hand in case you crash it or drop it. An expensive indicator will smash just as easily as a cheap one and it hurts more when it does. You can spend what you save on other stuff you need.
Much of the made in America stuff is actually made in China or made from parts from China. A lot of the name brand stuff is made in the same factory alongside the generic brands. All of the name brand battery power tools are made in the same place in China. The difference is
the color of the plastic outside and the label.
As far as Made in USA is concerned, for most that ship has already sailed.
NYCCNC toured that Starrett factory... they design, machine and assemble literally every conceivable part of almost everything they sell. You're saying that Starrett also makes the parts in a Banggood indicator? Lmfaoooo!
@@dregenius
Ummm ... for example Starrett dial calipers are made in china... Besides that, they have cheapened them for a good number of years past, anyway. In short... they suck. I'd never buy Starrett Calipers now or even when they started cheapening the 15 or years ago.
Secondly JOHN YOUNGQUIST didn't say Starrett makes any part in a Banggood indicator IF YOU BOTHER READING !!.
JOHN YOUNGQUIST
Some of which you are correct concerning made in china. But a lot of tools for machinist that I buy I would NEVER EVER consider if made in china:
taps dies -- you'd have to be a fool to risk your part you've worked on with many previous operations, to a cheap chinese tap or die just to save a few bucks !! -- same with reamers, and for me personally, drills as well. i buy Japanese, German, or US taps and dies. Or in Model Engineering I buy English made taps and dies.
As a second point the outfit Long Island Indicator Co. (old time Swiss folks instrument repair) attest that B&S Bestest is the most rugged you can buy. So I keep at least one Bestest. Actually I've accumulated 3 more through the years. Didn't cost me a fortune just have to keep your eyes peeled. I got them for something like 20% -50% retail.
You say: >>"Given the decade difference in cost you can afford to replace it every 20 years of so if it ever needs it. You can also keep a spare on hand in case you crash it or drop it.">>
What if by chance you damage the crappy one and also the crappy spare ? Right in the middle of a job where it is critically needed ? Not to mention, you say the crappy one will last 20 years ?? Hmmm.. I doubt that. 2 maybe.
Knock yourself out ! Keep buying crappy !
One thing that has always confounded me is the position of the indicator point on "test" indicators. As I understand it the indicator point may be moved about 12 degrees from the "straight" that is horizontal or vertical, and the instrument will still read within tolerance. Guess I'm fishing for a comment about this. If I get within 0.001" (+ or - 0.0005") I feel I am at the limit of my skill level and within the capability of my machinery. Hats off to those true precision machinists! Thanks for this video.
Hello Geoff, what you're referring to is cosine error. It has to do with the angle of the indicator arm in relation to the tool. It's a trig issue. Keep in mind that for comparative use it doesn't matter.
Hi there Mr Pete,
Back in the 1970/80s I worked a precision grinding m/c ( a Cincinnati universal) I used to grind tooling & we used Tesa Swiss made, if I was doing same job today, I would still use Tesa, however home machine shop, china is fine, very interesting video, from Coventry UK.
Yes thanks
Thank you for the review. It really helps to have someone with so much experience guide us nubes with regard to tools.
I like these cheap stuff review videos. Thanks! I'm just interested if it moves freely without any issues. For me as a hobbyist it seems to be more than good and I'll leave 200$ indicators for professionals.
You've made another great learning video .
Thank you !
Thanks
Good morning Mr Pete and thank you for the edutainment to go with my coffee! Have a good day.....and keep on enjoying those auctions I wish they had more of them in the south.
Thanks
Thank you Tubulcain for that great video. I really appreciate your experience in the shop.
Mr. Pete, there are two possible sources of cosine error in your setup, but you only accounted for one of them (using the square to insure the indicator is perfectly vertical). The other source of cosine error would be present if the pivot axis of the indicator lever is not on the same horizontal plane as the little ball at the end of the lever. In other words, when you zeroed out the indicators, both levers must be perfectly horizontal. When this error is present, the indicator will read higher than it should, which is what I see on the B&S. I am a mathematician, so I understand cosine errors. From the video, it is difficult to see whether the levers for both indicators started out horizontally. I could be wrong here, but might be worth a redo. Also, I grew up in Providence, RI, original home of B&S. I'd hate to think that B&S is anything but top quality. :)
My thoughts too. By the way, I have an old Brown & Sharpe vise that says Providence, RI on it!
I don't know why being a mathematician would make you understand cosine errors any more than someone who just took a basic level math class.
@@jimmysyar889 I agree. Just like I don't know why a 5 star restaurant chef would know any more about making eggs benedict than someone who took a basic cooking class. LOL
tzampini well that has nuances to it and is quite complicated. This is more exact and once you understand it you can’t understand it more. For example a mathematician wouldn’t know how to add two numbers together more correct than me because once you know how to do it that’s it.
@@jimmysyar889 I suppose you make a good point. However, perhaps you do not see the "nuances" associated with cosine error precisely because you are not (I assume) a mathematician. Clearly, Mr. Pete, as brilliant a machinist and teacher as he is, and whom I have the utmost respect for, and who I'm sure has at least a basic understanding of mathematics (and probably a lot more than basic), missed some aspects of cosine error. I was just pointing out these nuances, not to criticize Mr. Pete, but to add information for anyone reading these comments. We all miss things at times. When I miss something or get something wrong, I welcome when someone else corrects me. Because I certainly am far from perfect.
THANK YOU...for sharing. We are not making heart valves in our home shops and this Banggood indicator would work just fine, thanks for doing the test.
So true, a lot of people do not understand that
Thank you Lyle,
I enjoyed the comments as much as the video you presented. As a repairman, I used test indicators to set up machine tools, correct mechanical error following machine crashes, calibration linear position against inspection grade machine standards typically working to .0001" accuracy and repeatability, etc. My favorite and most trusted test indicators are Starrett, B&S, and Mitotoya. I have a BesTest
.00005" that is a delight to use. Most CNC repair doesn't require that resolution, but I purchased it so I could repair and maintain a CNC gear grinder.
I value quality over low cost. In my book, Mitotoya and B&S offer the most consistent indicator quality for moderate cost. I probably own 40 quality indicators, so I am not tempted with the Banggood option. There probably aren't many hobbyists watching your channel that NEED higher performance than the import that you tested, but I can't yield to the temptation even though my machine tools are too old to out perform your import indicator... But possibly better machines are in my future!!!!
Sounds like you have a great selection of indicators. I have about 20. Which is 18 more than I need, LOL
I really enjoyed watching this!
Thank you
Anders
Retired mechanical engineer
Sweden
👍👍👍
At 2:15 you can clearly see that the Brown&Sharpe is "swiss made", just like the Tesa. Every country is capable of producing whatever level of quality they've set their mark on. If a Chinese company produced Tesa-like quality indicators, they could probably sell them for half the price; that's not enough to convince buyers looking for the ultimate in quality. So, Chinese manufacturers settle for "almost as good", but they sell their indicators for 10% of the Tesa price. A consequence of this is that machinists are split into two blocks: those who can measure deviations beyond the capability of their machines and/or their skills - and are poor to boot - and those with basically the same problem but are a bit richer, because they chose Banggood over Tesa.
Don't get me wrong: I love quality as much as anyone. I do have a Tesa indicator, and it's just silky smooth, perfectly accurate, a joy to behold. But I have it only because I had the chance to buy it at a bargain price from an eBay source. Had I have to pay 200 dollars for it, I would never have bought it: I'd have got the Banggood one and spent the saved money in something else.
In any case, I think test dial indicators are fairly useless as a measurement tool. They can only really be used to check equality, not difference. A pivoting probe will always suffer from cosine error, even for small angles. If your goal is to check for parallelism or flatness, they work fine, but if you want precise measurement, switch to a dial indicator, a micrometer, gauge blocks, height gauges or interferometry.
Thanks for a well thought out comment
Great work! I will be shure to watch your others videos
Thanks again for a most enjoyable video.
Nice work again, Mr Pete. I liked how you showed the indicators side by each. 👍
Thanks
A guy with one watch always knows what time it is, as bad as it may be. Guy with two watches is never sure. We got a third one. Now we have metrology.
lol
I grew up with very little money to put toward good tools. A file and hammer were my precision instruments. A quarter thou variation on items coming out of my basement shop is good enough
Odd that the Banggood one read perfect at .110", when tested against the Brown and Sharp, but off a whisker, when tested against the Tesa.
I'm wondering if the gauge blocks are a hairsbreadth out of parallel, and the stack of blocks got turned 180 degrees, between the first and second test?
Heat from your fingers can expand metal more than you would imagine. Best practice is to handle the blocks as little as you can, preferably with tongs, and to let them normalize(become the same temp) on the surface plate before the test.
czcams.com/video/eX7yDFYb3DE/video.html
You can see a small gap under the .110
Great video as usual. Great comparison. Have a great day.
Thanks
Well the BrnShrp is 20 years old and a cleaning and calibration will help. The BngGd is very well a decent gauge for most everything I do. I own several. The TstTa is very Good. I only had 1 instance in which i needed to be right on. A very key for High end Jewelry Cases, the key cost was $200.00 each. I made 4 for a friend for $40.00 dollars total out of Aluminum scrap. I Used a Starrett, new in the Box 10 years old. Great Video. I trust your integrity and really like this Video. Maybe a Starrett next time. The Other Red box. 😇
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Sir, You might want to check the documentation on your B&S dti. It is my understanding that they are engineered to read accurately when the tip arm is at 12 degrees to the surface. This would, of course, mean your "zero" was off from the get-go. At least that's how I understand it.
That is interesting, I’m fortunate I traded for a Mitutoyo one years ago that I use. Like you said most of the time I’m using an test indicator to show either parallelism or run out. Like centering a round object or bore in a mill.
Yes, so true
Sold me on the Bangood gauge for my use it will be fine great viedo MR Pete thank you for doing what you do
Thanks
Very interesting Mr. Pete. It is after all, whether we like it or not a global economy and in the final analysis a very small world
Yes
I appreciate videos like this and find the information very helpful. Although I would love to be able to buy all American made tools it simply is not in my budget being retired and a hobby machinist. Future videos comparing Chinese vs expensive tooling etc. would be great. Thank you!
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MR. Pete, Thank you for this vid. Great as always. Thank you for explaining the basics as you go along. You can retire the teacher but you can't remove the qualities out of the teacher (I know that is not well written but I think you get my point).
Thanks
Excellent demonstration.... Thanks
Thanks
Another great video! The comments about China made pretty much sum up the differences: they are only as good as the specifications they build to; and they can make them cheaper because the labor is cheaper. It looks like a decent product for the price point, and while long term accuracy may fail, for us home gamers I think no problem. Besides, these are almost allways used as a comparator, not an absolute measurement.
I thought all test indicators had an operating spec for the angle of the probe to the measured surface, like 12-15 degrees, so you can reach into/over a part and not have the shaft make contact part way up toward the pivot. This spec varies from maker to maker, and because of cosine factor (in this case not error if you use the correct angle) the indication would change by a slight amount. It looked to me the B&S started out darn near horizontal at 1.000, and may even have the shaft touching the stack for the 1.020. Of course not at the angle I was viewing from could I say for sure.
Thanks again for another great video!
Thanks for a good comment
Thanks for the review.
Yes
Mr. Pete, the test that I'd like to see is measuring concentricity on a lathe. The internal components of the indicator must be completely free of defects to provide smooth dynamic readings and this is where differences in long term accuracy are revealed.
Set them up on a gauge pin rotating at about 60 RPM with .020 runout and let them work for an hour (this will equate to a lifetime of use by a hard working machinist). I'm predicting that the expensive Swiss made test indicator will prove it's value over the inexpensive gauge.
but I might be wrong : )
That would be interesting. I agree, the jeweled Swiss instruments are bound to be more durable.
The thing that lets them down are the little dovetail clamps. They don't last very well. It's pretty easy to make a nice replacement out of steel though. BTW I love that scriber!
Thanks
Subscribed!
Thank you for the video!
I wonder whether the B&S had been dropped between 1998 and 2019. Excellent idea to check your measuring instruments!
One wording nit: the dials are graduated, not calibrated. Graduations here are at 0.0005" increments. Calibration is checking something against a standard of reference and adjusting to accuracy.
The thing to remember about Chinese imports: anyone remember when the Japanese produced cheap junk? Then they changed, and now they produce world-class products. There is no physical law preventing the Chinese from doing the same thing, over time.
In the meantime, if it cost 1/10th the price of an American, German or Japanese product, that savings came from somewhere. Be it cheap labor, automation, low-quality materials (whatever came out of the scrap-melting furnace that day, and it takes expensive power and furnace time to fully melt that scrap, mix it and make it uniform, and longer for what is poured to cool. Hey, I know -- let's pour as soon as it *looks* melted!), novice / fewer design engineers, motors are intermittent-duty instead of continuous-duty, lighter-weight frames, soft metal in the nuts and bolts (easier to form Play-Doh than Grade 8 steel)...
Maybe it's good enough for what you are doing, maybe it isn't. Quality will cost more and be harder to make. Sometimes a quality *reputation* is no longer justified.
There can also be games played; one thing that happened in electronics is that the first few items produced - that would be heavily inspected - used good parts. Then they start substituting less expensive parts (though any Purchasing department might do this - make sure your specs are adequate, because the purchaser may have no idea what matters and they found a lower price). You are a CZcams reviewer; did you get a specially selected item, or are they all this accurate? At first, before wear sets in.
Might be great for hobbyists and suck for businesses.
Great video Lyle. Just goes to show, don't presume anything. Accuracy is KING. Cheers
Thanks
I think a little more testing was in order- rotate the sample and allow the gauges to check each other. Regardless, it's quite interesting, although I'll not buy anything that inexpensive. Thanks for the video.
You would have to consult the manual but it is possible the b&s indicator is calibrated to read with the stylus at an angle rather than straight out. Those indicators are really for comparative measurements and not direct reading so the real test is in how they repeat and if the readings change when you move the stand traversing the block.
Thanks Mr. Pete.
👍
I´ve a besttest for over 20 years, use it every week or so, accidently turn the spindle on once at 6k rpm the thing flown 5 meters and hit the wall, only the window of it came out, shook the dust and went back to work. amaizing dial test. i only use it to zero parts.
can´t do same thing with mitutoyos. went thru 3 mitutoyos on the last 10 years.
No, that’s what I call durability
@@mrpete222 good enough to zero in parts and durable
Great test I love tests.
Thanks
It has been my experience that the China made instruments wear out very quickly, with regular use. I will never give up my Swiss made indicators.
I would agree, but it's possible to get by if you have at least one "good" reference that you can compare others too, then, as funds allow, the cheaper instruments can be replaced over time. For the home shop I don't think it's such a big problem, in an industrial setting, then yes, absolutely. Also of concern is repeatability. Have you any experience with the Girod brand instruments?
Depends on which, and who made them. I bought a few back in 1983, as well as a couple,e of mikes and calipers. All are still perfectly fine. I also have B&S, Starrett, TESA, etc. none seem to be more accurate than the other.
VERY nice. Thank you for the comparison and review!!!
I would definitely buy one, but I already have two indicators, one chinese and one Swiss made... :)
Yes thanks
Watching your review was eye opening , one must check their equipment prior to using. I was taken back regarding the Brown&Sharpe.
Would you be able to inspect the internal works and service the Brown&Sharpe and do another review? I’m so new to your world of extreme accuracy verses my world of approaching accuracy having the dollar cost in the equation. I am concern for quality versa the saying ,”use me once and through away”
This idea I have is to ask you to have a video from your pass experience /job you did on how you were able to quote a job? What is your thought process looking into a winning quote and making money? Speaking for myself as a carpenter, I have sub out certain areas and was still able to make a few dollars having a finish job that I was proud of.
I can but only imagine that many of your subscribers look to you for advancement . Thank you, Bob
That Tesa is a thing of Beauty! Brown and Sharpe indicators are also made by Tesa in Switzerland.
Thanks, did not know that
@@mrpete222 I think Tesa always made Brown and Sharpe stuff labeled ''Swiss Made''. Tesa and B&S DTIs look pretty much identical.
That was a very interesting demonstration and I appreciate you sharing it. As a woodworker I am looking for a way to set my jointer blades and suspect I need an indicator that is more accurate than my 75 year old eyes. But I am hesitant to buy something that may not work. Besides the indicator I would need something to hold it.
Mr. Pete
You are the Best!
Thanks
They are just comparators, used for finding centres and centering items, the measurements aren't critical in most uses.
You couldn't be more wrong. It is hyper critical for checking concentrically when making tools. If I chuck up a die that has +/- .005 tolerance when I'm honing the ID and the indicator is off 3 thou I've just fucked up a $1200 die. I get it you're probably not a toolmaker and have ran machine parts all your life but don't say something stupid that blankets an entire industry when you're only experienced in a portion in that industry.
That was very interesting......thanks
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Just ordered it 👍
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Just curious what readings would be if the gauge block was turn 180 degrees. Would it make any difference?
So "Made in America" does not always mean better. Thanks Lyle for showing this to us. Luv yuz!
Not always after 20 years of use.
The Brown & Sharp is made in Switzerland. Under the same company as the Tesa. They also make or sell the Compac brand. I think it's their entry level line.
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I wish you had reversed 180° the blocks to see if accuracy could be repeated. Suitable for Space Shuttle work!
Yea- flip the blocks end for end to see if the readings stayed the same
The only thing I would have done differently is, when there was a discrepancy between the two gauges, I would have reversed the blocks to measure in the approximate places the opposite gauge was tested.
Good comparison, Time to send in the B & S. Mark R. can fix it right up.
Yes, I should do that
Thank's for sharing. Not to be nitpicking, but from my view @ 8:37 of the video, the Banggood look's to be off 2 to 3 tenths of a thousandths off. Nothing wrong with that. Also at 8:53 of the video, not sure if it's the camera angle but the Tesatast looks to be off 1 maybe 2 tenths of a thousandths off, thus @ 9:09 of the video the Tesatast is right on. Again @ 9:41 of the video, the Tesatast is off, 1 maybe 2 tenths of a thousandths off. Let's face facts, if your involved in having to consider 1 maybe 2 tenths of a thousandths, your work environment would command big investments not just in tooling, but also temperature controls as well. A Banggood gauge would be more then sufficient for my needs at the home work shop, for me plus or minus 5 thousandths is close enough. I'm not building rocket ships, and the bench top piece of junk {Chinese Import} mill I have is about as close a tolerance I can keep. I will be purchasing one of these Banggood gauges. Thank you Mr. Pete.
I have the same cheap DTI. It says "7 jewels", but I'm skeptical that there are any jewels at all because the action is rough not smooth.
Quite honestly I would not be able to afford to do hobby machining if it were not for cheap Chinese machinery and tools. Thank you for the interesting comparison
Very interesting video.
Thanks
The B&S could have suffered some slight unnoticed damage or abuse at some point in an earlier life -- would be my guess. One has to ask: *_how long have machinists relied on Brown & Sharpe Bestest indicators ?_* The answer to that ought speak for itself.
Yes thanks
Thanks.
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PAWN SHOP indicators are a good gamble.
Name Brand NonWorking indicators, can be Self Reworked, and you end up with Expensive Tools for cheap!
I'm finding it very difficult to say "Chinese junk" by default anymore.
I have a couple Chinese indicators that are equally accurate.
Yes
8:01 Why did the Tesa arrow move (when you say: it has a lager dial, but it also...) ?
I'll give credit where it is due, for sure. Banggood is trying their best to provide quality and value and for the most part they are delivering. I have no problem at all with using quality imported equipment in my shop. Kudos to Banggood and to you, Mr. Pete. Thanks! :-)
Thanks
I bought a new Starrett large dial indicator. The subsidiary (small dial) dial is not zeroed but is slightly off. Is that a problem or can I simply adjust the hight until it reads zero and then zero the large dial ?
@nick f Thank you for taking time to answer my question.
Interesting.
I always enjoy the comparison of "good" to "cheap". It is reassuring that my cheapskate budget can sometimes not be a hindrance to accuracy.
I still always try and get a good used high quality instrument, but my bank account says sorry dude, not this time.
Thanks.
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I think a more realistic test would be to drop them on to a concrete floor from various heights and see which one endures. 😁 If they both become unusable, then the cheaper of the 2 becomes a clear winner.
I have about 10 of those digital Chinese calipers laying around my shop because that way, I always have one handy.. If I drop it and it stops working, no biggie, no crying, just go buy another.
Mr. Pete, you should send me those terribly inaccurate test indicators and I’ll send you my high precision Chinese models as a replacement 😂
one of the best thing about doing tests, is to publish the process publicly and seeing if others can repeat those tests and validate the results. This is how science works. I also like this video as it is a great reminder to go back and periodically check the tools you are using. Btw, religion is just relying on faith (or hope) without evidence. So you might say machining is a bit based on religion... and partially based in science. =D Happy Tuesday!
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The error in the B&S may be (unless the B&S has damage, manufacturing faults, or wear conditions, most certainly is) due to the angle of the probe relative to the surface being probed. For precise comparisons the angle for the second reading must be the same as it was for the first. In this case the two angles were not equal since the height of the indicator above the surface plate was not changed, but the height of the gauge blocks did change. Say the probe length is 0.700" and the angle to read the 1.000" height is 90.00 degrees, and the angle to read the 1.010" height was 90.4 degrees. This small angle change (four tenths of a degree) will account for an indication difference of about 0.0121".
surprising results
Yes
Don't remember what the cost is,, but B&S used to refurbish and calibrate their products. Patrick over @ Active Atom has the patience to rebuild stuff like that also. 🔬⏳⌛
For $20 you can get a new Chinese gauge.
My problem with my comparable cheap indicator is that the dovetails on the indicator did not match that of the stems... I had to make new stems...
Did not know that
isn't it necessary to 'twist' the blocks into position so any 'air' is removed so the air does not distort the readings?
Mr. Pete, is the body of the Banggood indicator plastic or metal?
Metal
I'm watching your video on my very reliable computer that was made in China
For a $17 indicator... It's not bad at all! It's no Interapid.. But it's definitely acceptable
I get good results with the old lever style indicators. My favorite is the Lufkin 199. Most of the time I never even look at the graduations but instead, just to see if the needle is moving or not. In high school, I made my first indicator out of an old pressure gauge and I still have it. It was accurate to + or - about 5 PSI! That was about .003". I got the idea from an article in Popular Mechanics
I would like to read that article
So that got me thinking
Volume
Pressure temperature what else
Volume
Length width hierarchy
Wow any feedback
imports often work the as good but they lack tuffness
they don’t take a fall
Test indicators are not intended for measurement per se. They are for comparison and deviations are only estimates.
Time to send the Brown & Sharp off to Mr. Tool for repair?
That's an interesting test, but not necessarily relevant to most usage.
I would be more interested in taking a sine bar, putting a 0.1000 under one end, a 0.1050 under the other, and scanning back and forth to verify that the needle moves smoothly and detects the variation without sticking or jumping. Repeat with 0.1010 and 0.1005.
I suspect, based on what I know of the internal mechanism, that the B&S indicator might have a slight backlash in its auto-reverse mechanism. Your technique should have accounted for that, but the error seemed to be a consistent 0.0005.
@mrpete22 love the videos. Keep them coming. It's hard to find common sense knowledge in this industry anymore. Everyone wants to run parts on a 5 axis and not know how to test and produce precision tooling. I've have learned over the years that when I test use at least 2 methods to test a part or tool and when you find variances find another way to test. Guys that use one indicator/mic/caliper set themselves up for failure. Have a backup in your box and check your trusty BS that never fails with your $20 Chinese indicator because one day it will.
Yes thanks
i think you should hook up a electric toothbrush to the dial indicators to deflect them to see how they hold up to some wear
lol
@@mrpete222 it may highlight the gear quality in the device to see what the actual contact area on the gears is (relating to surface finish etc). If they JUST managed to make it work, it being beaten around a bit will flatten out some high spots on the brass (maybe) and showcase some quality issues. However, given that these things are treated like fabergé eggs, its a bit of a joke.
if someone actually wants to torture expensive things, I think a proper way to do it would be to set it at some fixed offset then hook it to a fast vibrator like a oscillating toothbrush so it gently sweeps over the head moving it
it's my understanding that there should be a 12deg angle when viewed from the side?
For the price it is difficult to knock the far eastern import instrumentation. Import gauges are certainly good enough for whatever I do too.
Yes
Wear would probably be a minimal concern to 95% of the people interested in these, the $180 price differential would be
Cosine error is cause by the pivoting of the tip at the fulcrum. This means unless both tips are at the same angle to the gauge blocks, they are each being subjected to different amounts of cosine error. This would also be affected by tip length.
I know I'm replying to my own comment but, I think maybe the cheap Chinese indicator may be using a progressive sector arm so as long as one has the tip angle near the design angle when indicating, they would be accurate through the range. It still offers no clue into true quality or longevity. I suspect the old B&S probably doesn't have a progressive sector arm as my old Interapid most likely doesn't either. The instruction manual (which I can't find) does state an ideal angle for greatest accuracy (12 degrees, I think) and a formula for correcting for cosine error.
Hi Mr pete
I didnt Hera the sound of the brown and sharpei hitting the trash can
lol
The cheap ones work well enough for a while. What you don't see is they are assembled with hot glue inside , not screws. They don't last long.
Main problem with Chinese indicators is rather short life span. They are accurate out the box but they start to have issues quickly. The main plus is price - they are very cheap. Also when you accidentally damage one you don't feel too bad. Damaging expensive one from US / Japan / Germany etc. is painful and makes whole day go bad.
That is why Chinese indicators are perfect for home use because they are less likely to be worn out in a non commercial setting. The real lesson of the video is check the accuracy of your tools before doing close tolerance work just looking for a "brand name is not enough".
Swiss made is still Swiss made. There has to be a yardstick for others to measure up against and Swiss made usually means accuracy.
Yes
I have a Starret Last Word that I picked up at Grandma's Attic in Marshall, Michigan. I favor antique shops that sell more high end knick knacks and furniture because they seldom bother with tools. I alway ask if they have anything in the back? Often they have items that they don't want to deal with and I help yhem get rid of them at reasonable prices. 😆
I have had it about 5 years. It is from the 60's, but still does a fine job centering items in the 4 jaw on my old South Bend 9C WorkShop Lathe.
Not bad for 2 sets of indicators complete with boxes for $10.00. 😎
That was a bargain