Advanced Rappel Techniques
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2024
- Learn more at: expeditiontraining.org/
This video was reviewed by 2 or more IFMGA/AMGA Certified Guides and/or SIET Instructors and produced by industry professionals. However, this video may contain misinformation, may lack important details, may assume a certain knowledge base by the viewer, and is not intended for novices. SIET and it's employees and affiliates, recommend professional training for anyone taking part in mountaineering/climbing/skiing activities and attempting to implement skills demonstrated in these videos. Videos produced by SIET should not be used as a substitute for professional instruction!
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this is a great video, and please don't take this the wrong way, but i feel like the title should be changed somewhat..... these should not be considered advanced techniques, this should be basic stuff taught to everyone!
@benjatronic Thanks for your thoughts. We thought about this a good bit before naming it. I fully agree it would be ideal to teach these skills to beginners, especially because the techniques can save lives! And I feel that climbers shouldn't rappel unsupervised until they understand these techniques. With that being said, we felt like it's impossible for a beginner to absorb all the prerequisites to employ these skills in 1-2 days. The other reason we decided to call it 'advanced' was because we use terminology and techniques in the video that wouldn't make sense to a total novice, i.e. shock loading, friction hitches, etc. If I taught a full day rappelling class I probably wouldn't get through all of these techniques if the students had never climbed before. Thanks again!
Josh Beckner thanks for the respectful response! I feel more than a bit pedantic now 😢 and you're totally right, there is a bedrock of knowledge in there that I probably took for granted when watching.
This video just showed an interested party (me) that rappeling can be both dangerous (withoutl) and safer with these techniques. I agree with others this should be titled.......Before you rappel
what do you mean, i always make a knot at the top and jump the full lenghth of the rope down. its good that i saw this video, wont do it ever again.
Yea I am inclined to agree. If you don't know the setup and techniques necessary to prevent 85-90% of the rapping accidents that occur (outlined in this video), you probably should NOT be rapping because you're going to be way, way more likely to kill yourself.
Great video. Please make more of them! Simple, well explained, and will help many people!
Really excellent teaching! Articulate, clear, organized. Very useful. Thank you!
I really appreciate you calling out the leg loop third hand. I see so many people use that method and always thought it was a safe mehtod - now i see why it's not.
Kyle H what is a me loop third hand method. When you put a sling though a prussic to climb on?
Its when you tie a prusik or auto-block off of the leg loop. czcams.com/video/0qgygg8pzGI/video.htmlm9s
Although it's fine if you have extended the belay device as he did in the first part.
@@davidcross30 If you extended the belay device then there is no reason to have your backup on the leg loop, you can put it on your belay loop. Also, the belay loop is rated, a single leg loop is not.
scuba3steve3 the failure they are talking about is the prusik contacting the belay device.
The prusik is there as a third hand in case you let go of the brake rope (for whatever reason) and the force required to hold the brake rope and stop you using the friction in you belay device is next to nothing. You can hold it in your thumb an fore finger (I don’t advise doing that but it shows how little force you need to operate the device).
Like many things knowledge of different techniques is like tools in the toolbox. Understanding the use and limitations of each tool is more important though. Otherwise it is a case of all the gear; no idea.
Fantastic video, thank you for the excellent instruction and the life saving knowledge. I've been gym climbing for a year and getting ready to do outside for the spring and summer. I plan to go with a guide my first few times and then with experienced friends. The more you know ...
Thanks for keeping us safe!
Good info that everyone knows (or should know) but that routinely gets forgotten about. Great vid.
Excellent video, I was lucky enough to have been taught most of these techniques during my training, the only part that was new to me is the saddle bag, which looks like and excellent way to control the excess rope
Wow nice video thanks. I expected more advanced techniques but still learned something. The leg-lifting issue with the friction knot is quite important. Thanks again.
Have been teaching these techniques for quite a while. Have also introduced the concept that one must test before one commits at any transition. Once tested do not change anything otherwise test the system again. I count standing up to reach up to unclip your safety as a change to the system. Look over your system and test again before fully weighting your system and then good to go.
Good to hear, I like it!
Awesome. Excellent video. Clear, concise instruction. Great camera work. Easy to understand.
Will be using an extended rappel setup in future, great video thanks.
Far and away the best youtube instructional video format I've ever seen ❤️
Best video I've seen on rappeling. I think it's worth adding that existing rope/sling anchors should not be trusted. Replace them or at least check them thoroughly and back them up. Of course, metal/all anchors should be carefully checked and tested.
Kieron Desmond I fully agree. We could only fit so much into one video though. Thanks for your important comments.
Outstanding video. SIET is really putting out some quality work. Your alpine anchor video is also excellent.
Thanks, glad you got something out of them!
I know Im asking the wrong place but does anybody know of a way to get back into an Instagram account??
I was stupid lost the password. I would love any tips you can offer me.
@Chandler Rocco Thanks for your reply. I found the site through google and I'm in the hacking process now.
I see it takes a while so I will get back to you later with my results.
@Chandler Rocco HOLY **** IT ACTUALLY WORKED :O Just got access to my ig password within roughly 45 minutes of using the site.
Just had to pay 15$ but for sure worth the money :O
Thank you so much you saved my ass :D
@Deangelo Kendall glad I could help :D
Great video, I like the way you are teaching the testing the system (first the friction hitch, then the rappel device, then both together).
One mayor plus (on top of the obvious safety benefits) of using a friction hitch as a backup:
If you have 2x 50m ropes dangling from the anchor in which you have to build your rappel-system into, it helps massively if you can first put the frictionhitch onto the rope, then clip that to the harness. With that you can pull yourself out some rope to work with and put that into the rappel device without any weight yanking it down. Also minimizes the chance of you dropping your belaydevice.
I LOVE this vid and am now off to watch everything else you made. The factual approach to why something is done the way it is and why some techniques became outmoded is brilliant. Looking for vids to augment hands on learning, you're is head and shoulders over the rest. I think comments about it not being 'advanced' are coming from those who forget anyone can access you tube whether or not they know their bite from their draw. Personally I feel your caution in the title shows real advanced understanding of potential audience.
Brilliant advice given here. I'm totally new to repelling so I'm binge watching informative videos and yours in deffinetly one of the best.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for this helpful video! I’ve watched it multiple times!
fantastic informative video - thank you so much for sharing!
Thank you for the video. I took a course for lead climbing in my gym and my instructor showed me the old method of self-rappelling with the third hand round the leg loop. I will need to do some adjustments.
Some gyms teach some funny stuff...I'd recommend checking into your instructors credentials before you put your life in their hands.
Fantastic explanation of third hand setup. Thanks!
Great video for everyone, not only those feeling "advanced" :-)
Grzegorz Soczomski That's great to hear, thanks!
Red eternet
@@JoshBeckner plooo po ooooo ol ploooooplbooooolopllpplpllookoopppoppioi wE÷eee÷÷÷e÷e÷÷÷ee÷÷÷÷3is e DeHose you 33
Yeah this is not "advanced", this is "basic" stuff that everyone should be doing before rappelling.
Another great video Josh! I would like to make a plug for John Long's "BARK" acronym: Buckle/harness, Anchor, Rappel set-up and Knots (this usually refers to the knot connecting two ropes, but it can also refer to the stopper knots). It may sound silly, but I use this almost every time I rappel for myself and for checking my partners; especially if I'm tired or in less than ideal conditions when one might be tempted to rush things. I'm also diligent about squeeze checking my locking 'biners. BTW if you have a pack, you can stack the rope in that instead of making and feeding out butterfly coils. A stopper knot is especially important if you do this!!!
Thanks for the thoughtful contributions, Tony!
Realy good video. All puts clear and legible. Usefull tips and solusions. Thanks!
That's a cute trick, putting the repel device on a short tether to keep it away from the third hand. I've been attaching my third hand to my leg loop to keep it out of the mechanism. I like your method better. Thanks for posting.
Excellent speaker, excellent video. Thanks for this.
Your lessons are sooo cool, thanks man :)
Nice one! This is the first video that shows exactly how I've been abseiling for ages. In Italy this is the most common way.
Here in UK they use many different ways to it, and sometimes unsafe. Maybe because of the small amount of multipitches..
Thanks a lot, great video!
Cool explanations. Thanks a lot!
Love your all videos thanks a lot ! You guys are awesome.
_Excellent instructional video._
If you’re using a dyneema cord for your extension, you can clove hitch your biner rather than an overhand, that way you’re not dealing with the challenge of untying an overhand not in dyneema.
Thank you so much for your techniques
Excellent reminder! Thank you!
For the fireman belay method it's worth mentioning that: sometimes pulling tension is not enough, because it depends on the length of the rappel ... if it was really long rappel let's say 70m + the belayer at the bottom has to stand away from the crag and in some cases if a fall happen the belayer may need to run (or move) to the back from the crag while applying tension on the rope and in order for the belay system to work ... and of course any method you want to use depends on the nature of the place you are in! Learned that the hard way :)
All in all great video .. thanks for sharing the knowledge
Agreed, definitely a good idea to try out the fireman belay from the bottom while the person rappelling has a 3rd hand backup before using this method as the only backup. You have to pull surprisingly hard if there is a lot of rope stretch, and be well aware that if an accident occurs in which the rappeller is knocked unconscious, the person doing the fireman belay on the ground will need to hold the rope constantly until a rescue plan is decided. If falling rock or ice has hit the rappeller, then it will very likely fall directly onto the person doing the fireman belay, as well, which isn't an ideal backup.
The one benefit that a fireman belay has over a 3rd hand backup is that in the event of an accident, the person below can easily lower the rappeller to the ground and avoid having to ascend the rope.
This is the italian technic since 1990. Very glad to see that in USA the use of a machard back up, now is a must
Wow.. there are many videos supporting the use of attaching the auto block or equivalent to your leg loop and this video highlights exactly why it shouldn't be done. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
please upload videos more often, the last one was two years ago!
Claudio Yañez Were scheduled to have 6 more published by the fall!
Claudio Yañez Were scheduled to have 6 more published by the fall!
11:43 "Okay, so, all together..." Proceeds to demonstrate all failure modes happening at the same time xD.
This video is soooo good and useful, thanks so much!
Thanks for this - nicely made video, clearly explained.
You're welcome! Glad you got something out of it!
One can also use the new petzl dynamic rope device which adjusts. one version comes with 2 tails. I Use the fixed tail for the belay device, the adjusting one for the tether to the next anchor. Then a prussik on the harness as shown here.
having a prussik also allows one to rethrow or untangle ropes as one goes down.
Yes indeed! I also use that PAS as well. Petzl calls it the Connect Adjust Duo.
Thank you for video,subscribed 👍🏻👊🏻
thanks for sharing this
I Did like the sadle bag, very util in my work and my manuever.
Great video!! Thank you so much!!
Muy bueno, enhorabuena y gracias por compartir!!!
Excellent and very clear video.
Thanks, much appreciated!
Liked it. Good and informative vid.
Climbing since the `80s and I wish I'd learnt all of these techniques then... just makes me realise how lucky I've been
Awesome video, I changed my rap habits for the better because of it.
Great, glad it helped!
Great advice - thank you
great video, thank you!
great video. youre a great teacher..very calming
Glad you think so, we try hard!
I definitely had a tether save my ass. I thought my belay device was clipped into the system, and when I leaned back, everything shifted and I realized my mistake. ALWAYS double check before descending.
Thanks for the comment, John. It's good to hear that the backup systems are saving lives!
@@sietschoolforinternational5234
I always prefer direct attach ATC device to belay loop, long prussik to rope above device. If lose control, slip onto prussik, and they move apart, not come together. Rapell with left hand on prussik, right on braking end of rope. Can always stop, use left and right on braking end if you need to, then resume.
Why only consider long friction device and prussik / auto bloc below?
Guess your objection might be tying up left hand on the prussik to make forward progress, but was never a problem?
Peter Boyle if you slip and engage the prussic above the atc it would put all of your weight on the prussic. If the prussic is below (auto-block style) the prussic only has to handle braking tension.
@@PB-sk9jn Similarly to what Chris said... I had a friend (an experienced abseiler, trained through a rescue group) using this technique accidentally load the prussik while on descent. He was unable to unlock it even with assistance of his mechanical ascenders, and ultimately we had to cut it - not ideal!
@@angusdalton1 fair enough then, I'll switch.
Great video! One minor comment is the use of the overhand knot in an in-line configuration. An alpine butterfly should be used instead since it can loaded in all three directions.
The butterfly would certainly be easier to untie if it receives a huge load. I generally teach the overhand because it's faster, easier to visually inspect and can also be loaded in all directions. The strength is nearly the same as the butterfly and in practical applications, the strength doesn't much matter since no one is breaking modern ropes in the field in 'regular' climbing applications.
Does anything speak against using a clove hitch to fix the biner for the rappel device? Easy to tie/untie, multidirectional and even if it were to slip it would be stopped at the end of the extension sling.
@@robertkrug5865 Clove hitch works fine. Many people prefer the extra security of a real loop knot that's easier to inspect.
with the locking draw method you could connect the back up hitch onto your double harness attachment points for more distance from the rappell device
T B For sure! That would be a great method if you had a longer friction hitch than what was demonstrated in the video. Thanks for the tip!
its a great video :D
Great video. Thank you for the effort
Great info!
Hi. Great tutorial and I've used your method of the extended belay. I've seen similar set ups where the prussic loop is lark's footed to the belay loop (and connected back after wrapping around the rope by a locking carabiner). Supposed to reduce risk of dropping the loop down the cliff. What do you think?
Yeah, I think that's another totally legit way of creating a reliable third hand. Thanks for the question.
Thanks for the video, realls good information! I'm wondering, 85% off ALL alpine climbing accidents or just accidents connected with rappelling?
It's just rappelling.
I think one thing that was missed in the video is the importance of a solid plan with your belayer/followers. Everyone should know every step of the plan and what to expect at which stages.
Thank you so much for this video!
Great video! I have one observation it shows that you rely to much on your belay loop I think it would be better and safer to have your extended belay (rappel device) hooked up to your belay loop and have the backup (auto-block friction hitch) hooked directly to the main belt and leg loop connection. This protects against possible failure of the belay loop.
Thanks for the thoughts Kevin. This topic is still debated in the recreational community. In the professional community the debate is long over. Here's why-
The belay loop is the single strongest part of your harness. if it's in good condition (ie doesn't need to be retired), it won't fail. If it does fail, the forces that created that failure were likely so great that you were killed anyhow (or you wish you were :-/ ).
Many people often quote facts from Todd Skinner's accident because his belay loop failed. However, that was an exceptionally old, worn out, retired harness that he never should've been using in the first place, plus he had daisy chains fixed to it in a way that allowed the leg loops to wear most of the way through this belay loop! So, it's like saying that you should always use two ropes because 20 years ago someone incorrectly used their rope and it got cut over an exceptionally sharp edge, or a rope broke because it was exposed to battery acid, etc. In all these cases the problem was user error, not equipment failure of *reliable* equipment. It's also worth noting that Skinner's accident was/is the only report of a belay loop ever failing.
In climbing courses we often try to drive home the point of redundancy. However, this is not a 'rule.' There's many components of the system that aren't redundant. Think about what happens when you catch a lead fall- single locking carabiner, single belay device, single belay loop, single rope, often big forces, and those components never fail (unless of course it's user error, ie letting go of the break hand, loading a grigri backwards, etc).
So, the take home point...the belay loop is plenty strong and doesn't need to be questioned unless there's reason to believe that it might be time to retire it...in which case you should just retire it.
Hope that helps.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 i have heard such a perfect explanation of how to apply redundancy in the climbing world. Wow
Thanks you Josh, I rarely use any of those but I have on occasion, and it's a great vid and worth remembering to keep them in the toolbox. One you missed that is easy and common is to simply tie off the end(s) to your harness. It serves to not hit the party below, keeps the end in reach so you can pull it out of a bush, and if worst comes to worst, you have it clipped off so that it will lock off if you get conked on the noggin.
Great point, just make sure you don't have twists, they can get BAD in the scenario you're describing.
great video
Thank you.
really good videos!!
Excellent video! In the case at the end where only one side of the rope has been locked through the biner, do you believe a backup friction hitch would still save you?
That's a really good question. In theory it could, BUT if this were to happen, our first instinct would be to grip the rope harder which would likely keep the friction hitch from grabbing the rope!
@@tonyjewell478 That seems likely! But I'd hope that maybe we'd realize what was happening and let go fairly soon, letting the hitch catch. I'm going to try this scenario out near the ground soon...
Very informative
Nice video
The better third hand to prevent losing control on a rappel is the use of the VT prusik. It is made of material that is highly resistant to burning, so if you need to stop while going fast of for long distances, you won't melt the system. The most important aspect, is that you don't need to extend your rappel device. The VT goes above your rappel device and once it is tightened, it can be easily released with a simple hand movement.
A rappel device that is extended has various problems. The extension places the rappel device closer to our hair or jacket hood. Getting ones hair caught in a rappel device is a dangerous situation. Dirt, mud or ice on our rope has a higher chance of getting into our eyes. Another issue with extending the rappel device is that you weaken the strongest portion of your rappel system. Having your rappel device directly connected to your harness tie in spot is the strongest possible choice. Extending your device adds another link into the system. This link is not as strong as your harness tie in. By using your PAS or sling, you are using equipment that routinely is subjected to abrasion during climbing. Stitching can become weaker with use and this can be hard to detect. Regardless, there is no reason to induce additional equipment and risk because the use of the VT prusik is far better and obviates the risk of extending systems.
this is great video
Great vids. I came within a whisker of being a statistic due to only single strand through belay device. Fading light, tired etc. Noticed it seconds before committing all my weight. Check, check & check again !
Kiwideano, thanks for the anecdote, it's always great to hear first hand stories of things (almost) going wrong. Be safe out there!
Gracias por este fenomenal trabajo.
Por nada!
great video! looks like this was filmed in Little Cottonwood?
You guessed it- LCC!
Great Video!!! It´s really a shame how often you read about deadly abseiling accidents. I think still too many climbers are unaware of the danger involved...
Like the content. Good stuff meng.
Very useful - Thank you
Good info.. Thanks!
Great video
Very good advisements
Could you use an Alpine Butterfly Loop in your extension sling instead of an overhand? I don’t know, it might take more time and material but it should be easier to untie after being loaded right?
Seems like it would use up alot of the sling and make it shorter and thereby a bigger PITA as rap stations. Also a trick for getting knots out of dyneema slings, put the knot on a rock and use your open flat hand to roll the knot on the rock. Works like a charm and loosens even some pretty stubbornly tight overhands.
great info ty
Would you put one saddle bag on each hip then for each side of the rope? Also, i've been using a klemheist for all my friction hitches so far. What are the benefits of each type? (e.g. Klemheist, Prusik, Autoblock, i think a fourth one is called garda?)
Also, i have some confusion on the dyneema sling as a tether/PAS. You said that they do not absorb any energy if you 'shock-load' them. But i believed that they are still rated for/meant for catching dynamic falls (i.e. as extended/alpine quickdraws). Does this mean that they just don't absorb energy, so are fine when leading to fall on (the rope stretch takes the stretching factor), but not recommended to shock load when hanging at an anchor (maybe not for bomb proof bolts, but for pitons or trad placements as an anchor?)
Hey Graham, good to hear from you! If you stack the rope carefully into the saddlebag you can go with just one. One on each side is more complicated and thus slower, in my experience anyway. Generally speaking the friction hitches have less holding power in the following order: prussik (the most holding power), kleimheist, autoblock. The garda is for hualing or fixed line ascension, it's not a friction hitch.
PAS's made of dyneema don't absorb any energy so critical to have a rope in the system if it's going to be dynamically loaded, like with an extended runner. Even if you're clipped to bolts and tethered with a dyneema sling and you shock load the anchor (factor 1-2), this wouldn't be good! You're probably not going to rip the bolts but you might seriously damage some internal organs or jack up your back pretty good. Petzl has a dynamic tether (the Connect Adjust) that would be a good alternative to other PAS rigs that don't have any dynamic capabilities. Thanks for the comments and hope to see you out there sometime soon! -JB
Si añadis subtítulos en español tendréis un montón de visualizaciones,o traducido, sería fenomenal
Good video.
Hi . A couple of thoughts
1. Manufacturer warning at timecode 5:48 is a bit ambiguous without a pictorial demonstration, also reason why this is the case would help.
2. Tying both ends of the rope together, rather than with individual barrel knots, offers a second chance IF abseiler accidentally clips only one rope into abseil device AND the tied ends of the rope/s don't reach the ground; although it would be hell of a fall before the load came on the system, however there is a slim chance of survival if rope being pulled through the top anchor does not melt. And more positively, only a fall factor one on a double rope.
Tying the ends together also ensures you don't forget to untie before pulling the rope.
@@taylor1315never thought of that - great indeed
As shown, autoblock ALWAYS goes BELOW the belay device. If you put it above, and are in free-hang, the prusik can lock solid and then you're in a bind (pardon the pun). When it's below the device, there's just enough slack on the line to prevent lock-up.
Yup, thanks Andre!
To keep your rope from beening blown away or get entangled in shrubs simply one climber lowers the other one before rapelling himself/herself. People don't like it so much, because rapelling is way cooler then beeing lowered, but it is really faster then all the throwing methods.
I do like your saddle bag though. I'll give it a try next time.
That can work great, but in many situations the partner isn't competent enough to figure out what to do at the next rap station. And if you might lower them too far, especially if communication is impaired due to wind/distance. Thanks for the comment!
awesome video
Thanks!
was this filmed on a specific route? Looks like somewhere in little cottonwood canyon, Utah
A few weeks ago 4 of us attached to an anchor through the night trying to untangle two 70m ropes tied together so we could rappel. That knot was chaos. Nightmares.
Hi, is it ok to extend the rappel with a 7mm cordellete?? I use it as a lanyard with two points, one for the anchor and one for the ATC.
I've used it like that a few times... Seems alright to me, but I'm not an expert
That's more than adequate.
Original method is wraping the prusik loop above the belay device which allows for clear visibility, no jamming or twisting.
That was indeed the original method, however, if you weight the friction hitch when it's above the device it's more likely to fail since it needs to take the ENTIRE LOAD where as the friction hitch below only has to hold a few kilos.
Hello can i ask a question. What is the length of express sling in 7:54min-8:17min ?
If you’re not supposed to shock load dyneema slings, is it safe to use them to extend trad placements?
the rope absorbs the shock
Yup, what weisseseis said!
Dyneema slings shouldn't be shock loaded but they're fine for alpine draws because the rope absorbs some of the shock ?
bourquejocelyn exactly, spot on mate!
I was going to ask this exact same question. Also Dyneema CAN be shock loaded and it'll hold, The problem is when you put a knot in the system. The knot significantly weakens the sling. Nylon slings don't suffer this issue quite as severely as Dyneema. They are thin, and when you shock load a knot, they heat up. The friction at this point generates enough heat to lower the fall rating and the sling will snap. DMM have done extensive tests showing exactly this happening!
Very Good !!!
Cheers, glad you enjoyed it. We should have another one out in a couple weeks...stay tuned!
How long should the cord be for the autoblock hitch and what diameter is most ideal on a 9-10mm rope?
4 mm cord.
Determine the length by experiment (something like 70 centimetres, also determined by the way you tie it.)
Useful info. Well done and nice tone. Perhaps i would have used more harsh terms like, free fall to your death./deck. I was taught the importance of and made a habit of the double check. And it’s a good term to perpetuate to new and old climbers. Double check before you commit.
Great points, thanks for that!