Would you rappel on this?
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- We tested some sketchy webbing anchors and talked about how awesome microplastic is to have in our waterways. We wouldn't want a reliable, low impact, 2 bolt anchor to ruin nature, would we?
Thank you / synaptic_synergy and / chadsilva for donating tat for science.
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It is worth pointing out that cord is a lot less problematic than slings. Cord has the core protected by the sheath, therefore the core is not exposed to UV. Slings are thin, do not have a sheath and every strand is exposed, making them degrade a lot faster.
And when the core *is* exposed, through abrasion or sheath failure, it is visibly so.
@@thegoodtom1718No, they are not.
This is a good point.
Hugely significant point you made.
Yes, a bolt that lasts for years, is less impact than a ton of plastic slings.
It can also help to divert traffic away from trees that can be killed by soil compaction and erosion on popular routes.
Decades if done well.
That’s why I just don’t understand people who are against bolts for these specific reasons. How are a couple tiny bomber bolts that will last for years and years “more impactful” than rat nests of literal garbage that looks worse over time and degrades in the elements on top of being maintained by random people adding more material over time in a completely random and hard to keep track of way. How anyone can look at bolts and think “That’s unnatural and looks terrible!” and then look at big piles of degrading plastic tat and think “Ahhh much better” is beyond me.
Amen
@@moonti6820 Unpopular opinion from a clean ethics person. (Me) Decades, even if it's 50 years as a bomber anchor, doesn't take into account that in 300 years people will still be climbing. What are future generations going to say about our allowing people to "pave the vertical world"? It's a double edge sword because while yes, ima clip some bolts if they are there, but if they aren't then maybe I shouldn't be climbing the route if I don't have the skillset to protect myself properly or the huevos grandes to make it all happen. (Source: Climbed @ Whiteside Mtn NC for years)
5:37 Thanks for giving that material one last ride! 😆😁
5 days old comment on a video posted 30 minutes ago
wat
@@bobrobe7121 It was probably uploaded and set to only be viewed with the proper link and not set to public for a week
YOU'RE AWESOME CHAD! LOVE YOU
Thank you Chad, for consistently improving rap stations around The Gunks!
Thank you Chad for what you’re doing at the Gunks
At Seneca Rocks in West Virginia where I learned to climb the guides would maintain the rap stations with trees and would use 11m static rope run through black tubular webbing with two rap rings. When the black webbing lost its color it was time to replace the anchor. I wonder how strong the rope under the webbing would be? The idea being the webbing would take the UV damage and protect the rope.
Like this
That's an excellent alternative. Plus you get extra abrasion resistance.
Man if only there was a more permanent solution that required less maintenance, was more safe, allowed better rappels and abused trees less 🤔
Very sensible solution, to only upgrade to that system I would recommend is including a date tag possibly inside or just attached to the webbing.
That way anyone could inspect it and replace at set intervals of Xyears rather than relying on visual inspection.
Is the entire rope encased in the webbing and then tied off, webbing and rope together? Or does the webbing protect most of the rope but the knot is exposed?
I lost my best friend to this in the Alps. He was a phenomenal climber, well known and very experienced, but three old sun baked pieces of tat failed and he fell several hundred meters. In the alps and in the US Ive often come across thick wedges with multiple sun baked slings - I normally cut away the oldest and replace with new. As an amusing aside, about 12 years ago I removed a shoelace and titanium rap ring that was on a shrub from from Officers Gulch (near fresco), I was bimbling about on the ice during a drive home and it melted my brain in so many ways… a shoelace. Well it makes me laugh
I want a shoelace break tested stat, lol.
Same here. If it's bad enough to add a backup then cut away the rubbish
Must have been an Alaskan. They get their thrills rapping off thumb size alders.
@@NotTheRealRustyShackleford that’s a good idea
@@NotTheRealRustyShackleford @hownot2
Yes, RIP to those two climbers, who were young and had their whole lives ahead of them, but thank God that divine rock wasn't defaced with a 1/2" diameter steel bolt, making some crusty old f$%ks on Mountain Project upset because people can now safely repeat a heroic first ascent from (checks notes) 1936.
which was probably Piton aid
@@YetAnotherAaron I looked it up - a 4-pitch 5.4, so they probably just ran it out. MP suggests there's controversy on whether to descend or rap. IMO it's these beginner routes that need proper anchors - tons of traffic, people not ready for every situation, easy to get over-confident.
@@IronJohn755 Absolutely.
@@IronJohn755
They were on a 5.8-5.9, not the trough. The issue is it's not a rappel station, it's a place to bail from (just as if you had to leave some nuts to bail mid pitch). And you don't even belay from that tree on the way up, you belay about 10-15 feet left. I totally agree that if it's a rap station, it's probably better to put two bolts in. But I can't advocate for putting bolts in everywhere you could possibly belay/rap.
The tat should've been removed long before they got there
@@shawnrezendes1165 Thanks for the clarification.
The accident basically happened because they did not understand how climbing gear degrades. Teaching the limitations of gear is why I like this channel and would recommend to anyone starting out to do some kind of proper course rather than just learn from a friend who lacks knowledge or may do things wrong.
I don't understand how they didn't know if they were "experienced"... that was one of the first things I learned from this channel, and you'd think it would be common knowledge in the community even if they didn't watch this channel.
I think there's a lot to say about how soft gear is harder to visually inspect than hard gear. I was fully expecting that webbing to be white webbing, not green. And if I didn't see any fading or tears in "white" webbing, I would trust it.
@@caleblaws7722does any reputable manufacturer actually make white webbing for climbing use? I dont think ive ever seen it. Seems like that would be one of the reasons they wouldnt. If no one made white(ish) webbing, if you saw it, youd know its bad.
the thing is is that the sling when wet looked a lot more supple and strong too. that said i’m never rapping off one sling of dubious age and strength if i have one to leave.
@@caleblaws7722that’s what I’m saying. I would have thought that was a white sling, inspected it as such, and probably met the same fate. Whenever inspecting soft gear my first thought is “how fuckin old is this thing?”
Frankenjura: cutting slings if they look too bad. Take the shit you don't trust with you and leave good stuff or rappel with nothing left behind.
I hate leaving stuff behind. As i don't trust other peoples slings and so i don't want anybody to trust mine.
Agreed. In Norway, where I climb, we are taught to cut slings and ropes that are left behind (and throw it in the trash) as we do not know how bad they are. Only steel anchors (not your own) are used for the rappels. If you have tobail and rappel on ropes or slings then you sacrifice your own gear that you know the history of. No way I will trust my own life to some random sling when 5$ worth of gear can be sacrificed.
@@vegardjotenandersen90 New to the sport. I would have though this is standard operations for all climbers. Its wild what people will hang off of.
It really depends on your style of climbing. Here in the Alps, there are plenty of bolted climbs and rappel routes. However, when mountaineering and alpine climbing, these rat nests of a bunch of old slings and cords are pretty standard, even on most popular 4000ers. Leaving behind one of your own slings/cords on every rappel is not really feasible when rappelling 10 times in a row. Also consider the amount of trash created when everybody cuts the sling of the previous parties.
However, that does not mean that I would just rappel off any sling I find in the mountains. If there are many pieces, they will hold. After all, 5 slings with 3kN is still more than enough for rappelling. Also, cord will be a lot safer than slings as the core is protected.
If there is only a single piece, it should be backed up by your own gear. And even if you do not want to leave anything behind, create a cold (non-weighted) backup and have the heaviest guy in the party go first and thoroughly bounce test it. If there is any doubt left, leave your backup piece as well.
@@foobar9220 5 slings @ 3kN each is hilarious to me hahaha, sorry. I am a caver in the USA, and it is very rare that we find old nylon anchors underground, but not uncommon that we find permanently rigged ropes attached to (hopefully) all stainless steel hardware. Since there is no UV underground, some of these ropes are decades old and still pull test to 50% MBS (50% of 30-40kN is amazing for our forces). But what happens in our community is that permanently bolted anchors can be really bad- galvanic corrosion is incredibly fast underground, and sometimes you find really shitty bolted routes. Like you should never rappel/climb on a single bolt, and some people don't understand how to bolt in caves because we use static ropes, meaning you can shock load the entire system if a bolt blows out. So even with bolts, I've learned to be very skeptical- but it seems its not exactly the case in mountaineering/rock climbing?
And the biggest issue with this is that nobody truly knows what tat is trustworthy so people sometimes remove perfectly safe gear. A few years ago I built a bomber rappel station on a popular alpine route with a cordalette and 2 rappel rings, came back a week later and it was gone so either somebody took it for themselves or thought it was old and threw it away. Wasteful either way. That route fortunately now has some bolted rap stations.
It's mind blowing how crazy the impact of extended UV exposure on the same piece of gear is in those examples!
In Tree climbing, we use retrievable ring on ring friction savers that would be basically the same as what you are using for slings. Consists of a large anchor ring on one end and a small anchor ring on the other. Put the rings together then put your rope through. You can either lower yourself using moving rope system / doubled rope technique, or you can put an alpine butterfly to stop against the small ring, put a carabiner in the loop so it doesn't close, then repel on single rope technique / stationary system. Have to make sure you have enough rope on the butterfly end to touch the spot you are repelling to in order to retrieve. To retrieve the friction saver, either put a stopper knot or a retrieval ball on one end of the rope and pull the rope down. The knot or retrieval ball goes through the big ring but catches the small ring and it pulls the friction saver out. For controlled retrieval, we use throw line by tieing it to the stopper knot / retrieval ball end. The throwline follows the path of the large ring, which is pulled around the backside of the trunk / limb. Have to pay attention to whether or not the big ring fits through the union on the tree you are using so it doesn't get stuck. For Stationary rope there is a variety of different ways to do a choker around the tree with your climbing line that are retrievable, as simple as a butterfly fly knot by it self, or a bit more complex as a floating ring with a midline stopper knot. Probably too much friction for anchoring to a boulder, but might be useful for anchoring to trees, depending on how far you are repelling / lowering yourself.
I am a tree climber, rock climber, and SAR tech. I built my own cambium saver out of two differently sized forged aluminum rings, some 1" tubular webbing, and a champagne cork w/ a bit of cord for the retrieval ball. It works great, cost nearly nothing, and can be made to whatever length you need it. Now I can rappel down on DdRT and retrieve the anchor with the cork if I have enough rope, or rappel down on a blocked SRT and retrieve the anchor with my throw line.
TLDR: buy or make an arborist cambium saver, and carry that along with some throw line in a chalk bag.
Former SAR high angle guy here…good video. Also good to hear that people are starting to pay attention to this, the fact it’s trash in the environment. It’s easy to confuse left gear with trash.
One of my dear friends Bryson Allen was killed during a rappel anchor failure on thw mendenhall towers. I really appreciate you helping keep climbers a little safer during equipment critical moments. Bryson was 23, he was an incredible person and a joy to climb with. I hope all of you climb for many more years. ❤️
So I come from a technical rescue background, I understand that the safety factors we use are way way above what sport climbers use. That being said, I look at it as if the protection should be replaced with new webbing, rope, whatever, every time. Your life is worth far more than it cost to replace sketchy gear. I can buy 100’ of tubular webbing for $40. If it were me, I’d cut the old stuff out and place new every single time if it was not literally witnessed being places. The other thought would be to sharpie a date on it. But again how long is too long? I don’t have the answers but it would give some idea.
Sharpie ink isn't great for webbing
Neither is UV. But I am fairly certain that the sharpie thing has been debunked.
In my brief expert google search the sharpie thing hasn't been debunked.. In 2002 Tests by UIAA was confirmed. UV is bad but unavoidable. @@Rancourt762
I've done some commercial rope access work too, and in every course they tell you not to use any marker pens on your gear or it won't be passed in the obligatory recurring safety checks, but of course you knew that right?@@Rancourt762
it hasn't@@Rancourt762
Don’t add. Replace
Hey Ryan. Thanks for providing amazing content. Nerding out on this topic and virtually everything you’re up to is high quality information. Keep it up.
Hey Ryan great video.
My takeaways when making judgement calls when rappelling off of tat:
1. Check for discoloration of the webbing. If it’s cord, look for desheating and softness to indicate if the cord is coreshot.
2. If it’s webbing, check for crustyness/stiffness in the material.
3. Generally metal is okay. But look for obvious signs of distress and if there is a massive groove.
Is there anything else I missed?
4 look for fluffyness on the tat, as that's another good indicator of wear
Chad is one my favorite people and it's so fucking cool to see him on this channel. 🎉❤
Sling from tape is the worst material to use, the way it weaves there is no part protected from the sun. Rope sling is far better as the core *should* never be in daylight, and if it is visible you can see there's a problem
I installed a "sling" on a tree for others, I used heavy stainless steel cable and 2 stainless steel mooring rings on the cable so people can retrieve their rope (cable passed through some old hose pipe where it contacted the tree), I don't have to worry that someone will die because of an old sling I left, but it's expensive and a hassle to go and put it there.
This is very common in the U.K. where bolt anchors on trad climbs are exceedingly rare. The BMC (British Mountaineering Council) volunteers do a great job of installing and replacing static rope anchors (around tree trunks) and have installed steel cable anchors at some popular crags. Nevertheless there are still lots of tat nests at the top of some climbs (e.g. on sea stacks).
I can’t believe the gear from the gunks was still strong because it looked so old. I’m new to trad climbing and seeing those slings always makes me nervous so I opt for bolted rappels but I’m glad to hear there are people trying to keep it safe.
I was pleasantly surprised as well!
I moved to the West Coadt just as the Gunks were starting to add rappel stations. The amount of tat that uses to be everywhere, rapped around trees, was truly frightening.
Some credit may be due to the orientation of the cliffs. The south-easterly aspect means that the sun isn't beating on things all day long.
East facing cliffs maybe limited sun expo?
My rules of thumb:
If I add a piece of tat, I cut out the oldest pieces of tat until there's only 3-4 pieces total
If there's only one or two pieces, always add a fresh piece
One of the best climbers I knew when I started climbing in the late 80's was a guy named Jim Boyer. Great guy. He climbed all over the world from sport to big walls to alpine. He was killed rapping off fixed webbing on Mt. Lemmon in Tucson. Always be prepared to replace or back up an anchor even if it means losing gear.
Chad is a fitting name consideing the work he is putting in cleaning up anchors, and putting in new ones!
Yeah I imagine I have rappeled off of some of those slings you were showing from the gunks. We are taught to check the quality of the webbing, mainly on crustiness/stiffness. Aside from the increased plastic, you can also see the wear and tear on the trees. Some routes have been replaced with bolt anchors, but it's a work in progress. I for sure prefer bolts and chains when possible.
thank you for making these videos. you literally save lives by education
Many years ago I cut away a rats nest of faded slings from a pair of rappel rings in Joshua tree. I threw the mess down to rest of our party who was waiting at the bottom of the climb, laced up the rings and rapped down. When I reached the bottom I was confronted by a very well known and quite angry climber who berated me for decreasing the safety of the route by removing the redundant slings. I was dumbfounded by the response I received for my action to increase safety and aesthetics.
6:25 There's a strong chance that black cord from the Gunks was put there by me! Obviously I don't have the monopoly on black technora cord, but that was my leaver cord for a few years, a few years back.
I've had to set up an emergency rappel one day, to get down the mountain before a thunderstorm would catch us out in the open.
I'm sorry to have to admit that I did leave some rope and one carabiner out there.
They were definitely not my newest and bestest. I can imagine leaving crap that's already old exposed to the elements and the UV rays at 3000 metres is indeed quite dangerous. I do hope the cabin keeper found someone to clean up my stuff, after I explained to them where I had left it.
Leaving stuff when in need isn't the issue. The issue is that these stations are expected and normal, but not always treated with the suspicion and care that they deserve.
I have a collection of shit gear that I've pulled off canyons and climbs. The shit gear isn't really the problem. The problem is that many climbers and canyoners aren't factoring in carrying replacement gear / sacrificial gear. A length of 6mm power-cord that could be used for 3 or 4 anchors is negligible in terms of weight, but most people don't have the experience to know they should be carrying it.
We need to normalise the attitude of carrying spare, lightweight anchor material to replace or enhance the anchors used by the community. It may cost you $20 to replace the anchors on a multi-pitch climb, or a multi-abseil canyon, but it may save someone's life.
@Intermernet
I agree. I never leave the ground without the means to get back down safely.
Thank you for sharing as always!
I’m part of a rebolting team in Belgium. We always keep safety aspects in mind when maintaining an area or when we’re developing a new one. Two small fixed anchors definitely do not stand out and are highly recommended
As soon as I saw the thumbnail I thought "oh yeah, anchors at the Gunks all look like that." Cool to see you test some!!
As a canoyneer I have a good sense of what is good or bad.
But my friends did die from bad stuff....
Very sorry to hear that
I was hoping you would test 2 or more pieces of tat together. Agree with the advantages of a well placed bolted anchor.
I would bet in the real world you're only really loading up 1 piece at a time because nobody is getting them all of equal length. So 1 breaks, you're on the next longest, it holds until it fails, and you're now on the 3rd longest etc
Yes, I’d like to see 3, or 4, or 5 tat pieces EQUALIZED for a test; call this the “best possible” (but unlikely ) situation. Then do another test of 3, or 4 or 5 pieces not equalized (typical) in which 1 at a time would get loaded and fail and load the next longer sling, etc (as detailed by @evangatehouse).
So I hear the argument that bolts are a permanent change whereas slings around a tree are able to be removed, and yeah that sort of makes sense. But really, I have to wonder if the main reason we're still regularly putting slings on frequently used rappel stations is that it's just more convenient to carry a sling than a drill? Is this an effort thing, and what really needs to be done is someone just needs to put in the work?
That's probably a little location dependent. I have come across so many trees like this in Eldorado Canyon, CO, where there's a pretty strong no-bolt ethic (even though there are bolts all over the canyon by now), and the willpower to install them would absolutely be there. But because the history of the place was firmly "no bolts", there is resistance. Elsewhere, it's probably more because it requires work to put them in and people can't be bothered.
Thing is though, editing the rock with a hole or two seems like a smaller permanent change than the damage you do to the trees, especially considering the trees are alive (and, because it’s a fucking mountain, it’s not like trees have an easy life there anyway). And sure, one anchor sroundnthem once, that’s nit gonna harm the tree much, probably nit even rub away any bark. But a nest like those, staying in there for years, used regularly? That’s a different matter, potentially.
Duude that framing with the mountain at the start. Gold. I love WA.
Great episode. Super important topic. Well demonstrated.
Same thing happened in Mexico a few days ago, a touring company was doing a canyon in they anchor to a tree just one webbing one loop and it broke :(
Lovely video!! 😍 Thank you sir!
In the northeast USA, the ethics go something like this: if the first ascensionists put in bolts or pitons, it’s totally fine and they can even be replaced when they wear out (including the pitons!!!). If they didn’t, then you’re SOOL even if 2 nice anchor bolts would be way less impactful than the layers of tat on the dead or dying tree a 10 ft risky scramble away 🤷.
Dogtags with the month and year of installation might be a good idear.
I like this idea.
I'll be replacing the tat at the top of the 2nd pitch of Wasp (Gunks) this spring, if someone else does not get to it first.
The piranha is a tiny but great climbing knife for clearing tat.
The crackling sound of old webing breaking!
Always bring some webbing and a quicklink at least! Half a pound in weight go be the difference between a smooth operator or a sketchy/deadly rap
Keep up the great content and advocating for safer cliffs. I live in Australia and we have some great challenges with land managers and bolts. Some people get nostalgic about tat, but its ugly and dangerous. Some are getting replace by a big chain, which is better but 2 discreet bolts is still safer and more astetic.
I once noticed a frayed leg strap on a parachute that another jumper was putting on. After I commented how it didn't look good, he reached down and tore it in two with his fingers. Don't underestimate how material can weaken over time.
Please make some opposite tests: how much force will one exert when rappeling? It will dynamicaly change, but what would be maximum?
Years ago I found an old sling in a canyon in northern Spain. It looked OK except it was a little faded and the stitch block had been wrapped and covered with duct tape. I used to take it to classes, I was training vertical adventure guides, and would randomly throw it on the table along with a selection of various slings, some proprietary, some knotted, then ask people on the course to sort out what they would or would not use. Most people rejected a couple of knotted slings, tape with a tape knot and cord with a double fisherman's knot only on the basis they were knotted and were quite happy to include the old Spanish sling, even though it was faded and the duct tape made it impossible to check the stitch block, or even if there was a stitch block!
When they asked me what I'd choose I would reply, if I didn't know their age and history, none of them!
Ah, the infamous ``wrap 3, pull to your death`` on sun bleached webbing.
Wrap many pull few
A critical bit of info about both of those accidents is that they both happened when the slings were wet. This probably didn’t decrease their strength but it DEFINITELY made the slings look newer. Read the American Alpine Club summary of the JTree accident
Had a friend that would do a loose back up for all but the last person rappeling (looser than other tat). The idea being the test and inspection of the tat before 1 person uses and removes back up that didn't get weighted.
That anchor in the thumbnail is fine. I’ve rapped off some sketchy anchors. The one pictured is bomber. Already has webbing so I don’t need to leave any. 🤟🏼
I have some 7mm cord with a whole ecosystem growing out of it that I recently took down.
It was anchored on some vegetation at the top of an ice climb, and it’s definitely been through some freeze thaw ice cycles inside of it as well for extra spice .
In my local area, there are often tree anchors like discussed. Instead of rope or webbing, they have been replaced with metal wire strops around the tree (often in a plastic tube for abrasion??)
Does anyone have a link to the article about the double fatality?
Have the same issues at Devil's lake here in WI. 90% you can walk off so you dont necessarily need a rap anchor but ik a few spots where there is decades old tat but everybody loses their goddamn mind when you mention that a 2 bolt anchor would save me from down soloing off the frigate past a wasp nest
Regarding impact at Devils Lake, the trees are really suffering - not from wear on the bark, but erosion and trampling of their roots. I just visited one crag where I last climbed 5 years ago - the erosion was startling. The cedar tree anchors will only bear a couple more years of increased traffic and abuse. A couple parties per year was maybe not too much stress, but multiple groups all week long from May through October is killing trees. Maybe it’s time for Wis DNR to consider a slight modification of the no-bolts Eric at DLSP - strategic anchor bolts to save trees.
NOT a climber but vid caught my eye - Blimey this is eye-opening and scary. I have wondered about how secure the bolts/tethers are when rappelling...
south face of the tooth is also a climb of historical significance in the area so that's my understanding of why it hasn't gotten bolted anchors. also high traffic and lots of guiding means the cord tends to stay pretty fresh up there
Hello,
Your work is amazing, is webbing stronger when it's longer ?
In lieu of stainless bolts, I think the climbing / canyoning community should adopt a "take one, leave one" approach. If you're doing a canyon or route which falls into the "not many people do this, and it's possibly dodgy" category, then you should carry some spare sling / rope. Whenever you come across an anchor, look at it and count the slings. If it only has one, then add another one and use both. If it has two, then remove the worse looking one, add your own, and use both.
It's terrible for waste of plastics, and I feel bad about that, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to other plastic waste, and it could save a life.
If you're a regular canyoner / climber, I highly recommend this practice. It could save a life.
On the weight load rating tag, maybe add a date to it if you can
That's what we do in commercial rigging. I was just going through some cables and slings today checking tags for dates.
Most of these are just tubular webbing by the foot and don't have a rating tag, if they even have a rating at all.
@@williambrennan7794 thats how i kn0w. im an ironworker/cell tower guy
I’ve never climbed anything that didn’t have an improved trail, however, I love these climbing videos.
If we don’t want folks to link unlinked anchor bolts (3:30) we shouldn’t leave single links oriented to ensure rope twisting on the pull.
What bolt-removaltool is shown at the end?
Could be quite usefool fr reusing the holes for glueins....
Nicely machined one shown is the YABR, built from the Doodad 4.0 design
Seems pretty consistent that sun-bleached webbing is unsafe but if it isnt bleached it is probably strong enough for rappelling? If i ever see white tat im definitely gonna back it up
We pulled many old slings from Eldorado canyon and then abused the crap out of them, none of which broke in our torture tests under human body weight. Even a heavy climber weighs maybe 250lbs and repelling usually doesn't create much force. We finally had to use a truck to break the slings. These slings were sun faded to white from their original color and still impressively strong
Great video! What is the significance of the materials breaking against the carabeener vs in the knot?
Soft goods tend to break at a sharp bend radius, which is usually the knot, especially for brand new material. Hence the warnings that knots will significantly reduce the MBS.
In this case, the carabiner provides another sharp bend radius, but also maybe the knot was less affected by UV degradation than the flat material?
@@leveller4 thanks for the explination!
Nearly did this once. Many decades ago. My mentor applied some audio physical association. So I never made a critical mistake. That's why you use some sacrificial new climbing tape ,that you take along for the purpose. Stay safe people. 💚 👍 👌
For tree work we use adjustable and retrievable cambium/friction savers. If you know you're going to repel of a tree, then why not use a cambium/friction saver and then retrieve it when you're done? You won't see tree workers leaving slings in tree's for the next guy. Retrievable tree anchors are cheap and lightweight. Why don't you just use these instead?
I'm surprised noboty mentioned that if in doubt just put up a backup for the first person rappelling (let the backup a little loose) and see how the anchor works. If its fine the second person takes the backup off and rappels ...
Seeing differently faded parts of the same sling fail is fascinating. I'm sure it wasn't a surprise to you?
Does anybody sell a pure white sling? My DMM slings have only edges coloured...
I'm reminded of how when learning to drive, I was taught that seatbelt's patterns change when "used". Feels like there's an opportunity for standardisation for manufacturers around colour and warnings... but not sure what?
It does seem that sometimes, not all the time, that some people, not all people, are effectively making the argument "my personal sense of aesthetics is more important than other people's safety".
Respectfully, I don’t think that’s the argument most people intend. I think it’s more about how as climbers, we’re all responsible for our own risk management, and maintaining the fixed anchors we use is part of that personal responsibility. To be clear, I’m not arguing for or against that position. I’m just suggesting that the intent you’re ascribing to others may not be accurate.
Fortunately most popular climbing regions here in Europe have drilled in bolts, chains and rings on the top. I have never seen such UV degraded slings around blocks or trees here, however I have repelled with he rope directly around a tree and had no problem pulling off the rope later.
Would have loved to see the 3 worst one pulled at same time
As you point out, Canyoneers are taught to inspect and remove old webbing and replace it. We try to carry enough webbing to assume there is nothing safe in place. We also carry the crap out. So when climbing… sounds like carry webbing too.
i'm not even actually there and my heart rate spikes watching this
Lol, at the delaware water gap we call an anchor like that.... an ok anchor. Now it's when you get a tangle like that on a dead tree, and there's nothing else to rap off of.... that's when we start to sweat.
This same thing happened in 2008 in the Red River Gorge. Ben and Laura were simultaneously rapping when the tat broke.
They both died.
Unless you have climbed on Taquitz; especially its north side; perhaps you should consider the risk of dozens of parties rappelling it; or setting up multiple pitch top ropes; with all the loose rock on it.
A kid I had talked to a day before died when on a ledge you could camp on; and one most can get to without the need of a rope; had a rock come loose and off he went. With bolts at the top of every pitch; people could go out and rappel into the routes below; pretty sure some people would die.
Pretty sure there would be some collosal tagging done.
Trusting a single sling is hardcore even if they’re brand new
yeah it doesn't take much to at least double it, not even dirtbag climbers should be THAT cheapskate
Great Video.
What is the force in Newtons that a new Good sling should break at?
I used to climb in Tucson when I was in college. We never used others old webbing. Always maintained our gear.
Never step on the rope.
that hill you are on is higher than anything within 1000km of me 😄 and then there is an even bigger volcano in the background😨 what a place to live !
In the UK we sometimes belay from wooden stakes or marquee pegs hammered into the grass on clifftops. But I prefer to walk a long way off the cliff than trust big tent pegs for abseiling.
Mohonk Preserve should really add some more bolt stations on the popular routes.
I'd be really interested to see whether the cumulative effect of the 5 sling rats nest actually adds any strength, or whether it just all breaks at the strength of the strongest piece?
Rappelt on an tree with just the rope around. Felt like shit but we tested the tree more than enough. Still weird.
This is not a sustainable practice for the health of the tree. Fine in an emergency, but not for the standard descent on any route with traffic.
@@Govanification absolutly not. I agree with you. Was kind of an emergancy. Due to false wrong Routereading. Also the tree was dead with no bark left. Sounds kinda suicidal to descent from such a tree. But as mentioned we tested the tree and the rootsystem and quality of the tree been quite alright.
We prevented shockloading at all cost and descented at a very low speed.
One of the rather more stuipid actions in my 20 years of climbing.
@@iluvatar4244 You should learn the equivocation hitch (aka death daisy) for situations like this. It allows you to rappel with the rope directly around the tree, but you don't damage it afterwards when you pull the rope. It's definitely something you want to practice at home first as it's a relatively complex hitch
Cool video ! Recently also rapped off old tat. I have done a lot of multipitch trad routes and you encounter these belays all the time. we usually always carry our own webbing and knife and we cut and clean 🧼 as we go, yet sometimes in certain scenarios you just end up having to decide , leave a lot more gear than you want OR rap on questionable tat. I use caution and even though I’m a pirate 🏴☠️ I’ll leave booty for someone else and keep me and my party safe .
Yes, bolts should be allowed for rap stations.
HI, you should add some powder sniffing hoover action dust absorbers above the pull bed.
Any thoughts on using stainless steel wire instead of nylon sling around the tree? For those areas where bolting is not prefered but also not microplastics?
Wire is going to damage the tree. Webbing or cord has a much larger surface area, which helps reduce damage to the tree. The wire will also saw through and maybe girdle the tree fairly quickly.
As an analogy, imagine having a 4lb weight on a necktie for a minute. Uncomfortable, but unlikely to cause damage. A 4lb weight hanging off of a piano wire necklace for a minute? That might actually kill you.
I think one problem is no one is packing to replace them, so they leave what they already carry.
Some already do it. Some also use tubing to better protect the tree. Some wire rope already comes with a PVC coat. ---I'm not sure where the idea of a "sawing" concept is coming from in regards wire rope looks, since the rings or quick links should be able to freely slide within the wire rope loop. No is tying a knot with this stuff that would restrict the rings movement.
I, and many others I know, usually cut away old rappel slings when coming over them, before leaving a fresh one on our own rappel.
All the money for the gunks goes straight to buying alcohol
My rule on anchors is never rely on just one hard point, if it's trees, I prefer to have three anchors each to a separate tree and at the base or as close to the base as possible. 1" military grade webbing, 3 or more raps on each anchor, and tied off with a square knot and two hitches. But that's just me.
Would absolutely love to see this applied to the crags of North Carolina. Places like Ship Rock are bomber, well maintained, camo two bolt anchors. Other crags not so much. I would love to send you some old slings to test if possible.
#makeanchorsgreatagain
If we have to use something wrapped around a rock or a tree as our anchor due to local ethic, would swaged steel cable or a chain be a possible "permanent" rap anchor solution instead of slowly accumulating tat?
rappelled off the same route, but only the lower half, we made sure we rap off of redundant soft goods, but we did rap of one single bolt during it too. Scary
They were all bomber! Just don’t sneeze on the way down.
I always bring extra new sling, clean it and make it better! Only if u know what your doing ofcourse.
When you start to pull the old webbing at a certain point you start to hear cracks in the webbing. What if you pull till you hear a couple cracks, release and pull again till you hear some cracks , again and again. Would this break the rope at an other strength?
We have just started to replace tat around the Lake District in the uk and were also wondering if cyclical loading of these abs could damage trees and weather its better to try and spread the load on the bark. Do you have any information on this? I feel like Ive head of trees dying after being abseiled on a lot but no hard evidence.
We've had a number of rap trees die in the Gunks. Lots of folks "know" what the problem is, but I suspect there isn't a whole lot of science to back up any of the theories. The most plausible is that the real culprit is soil compaction and soil erosion caused by climbers congregating around the tree rather than slings damaging the tree. But trees that have been slung for a long time show considerable wear to the bark. The surface looks polished and smooth and worn down, but I've never seen it worn through to the cambium and so it seems unlikely that the wear had a girdling effect. I've also never seen the wear extend around the entire circumference, which means even if deep the tree isn't fully girdled, and trees can survive partial girdling. There is a possibility that the worn bark might provide access to organisms that might attack the trees. So in spite of a certain amount of observation, I think we really don't know why some of the rap trees died.
@@richardgoldstone4666 ive heard that you could crush the cambium through the bark with enough force rather than wearing through to it, and that this might be happening when rapping on the tree. all be it only on one side but if it is happening it can't be good for them.
@@MrLinknel Trees are damaged in small areas all the time and are fine. A person's weight for ten minutes every week wouldn't make any difference.
IMHO community bolts/chains for popular stations seem like the way to go. Would be nice if more people cut and carried old slings from the stations at which they just placed new ones. Similar to packing out the mylar balloons that show up in the strangest places . Anyways, thanks for another great video to think about👍👍
Hi Ryan, if you haven't already, it would be awesome if you could perform some testing on homemade, swaged cables (aircraft/rigging cables), sometimes used for rappel stations. I messaged you about this on instagram a couple of months ago and just wanted to follow-up. I apologize if you already made a video on this and I missed it.
The testing you have done in this video is excellent and I intend to use this as a reference in the future. We have a ton of tatty rap stations all throughout NC.
Check the "climbing on homemade gear" video for swaged cable, but it's quickdraws not a rap station.
I've been doing some testing of the swaged cable anchors some guys in the canyoning community here have been making or wanting some testing done on. I've also been buying my own stainless steel wire rope and sleeves testing my own home-made ones that I need for extra long permadraws. More testing videos to come. Also plan to transition to all stainless wire rope+stainless sleeves which require a hydraulic swager. ---Basically what's most important is the after-swage dimensions to confirm they were compressed sufficiently enough.