Doug Robinson shows us How NOT 2 rappel
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- You join us as we rappel/abseil 400 ft. Doug Robinson joins Mike Rogers, Bobby Hutton and myself as we bring we show you some of the systems we regularly use descending cliffs.
Rappelling is dangerous! Accidents while rappelling kill climbers regularly. Pay attention, Check your systems, communicate and always consider tying stopper knots.
We recommend learning and practicing these techniques with a guide or experienced climber. Consequences are pretty high if you mess something up.
➜➜➜Episodes we referred to:
►Does marking your rope with a sharpie damage your rope?
• Are Sharpies on Climbi...
►Friction Hitch break tests.
• Prusik, Auto Blocks, a...
►American Death Triangle tests
• American Death Triangl...
►Doug Robinson Interview
• Doug Robinson - OG Yos...
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00:00 Intro
00:24 Doug Robinson!
01:13 Australia Rappel
02:08 Rappel Set up
04:02 Safety Message
05:31 Finding middle
06:48 Tube style rappel device
11:35 Rap station management
16:30 Two Rope Rappel
18:52 Lab visit (EDK test)
19:56 Friction hitch back ups
26:25 Pulling the ropes
30:06 Rap up
I can answer the question about the friction hitch backup under the extended rappell device:
If you have it abouve the device it has to hold the whole force of you hanging in the system or in the worst case: falling. 2 disadvantages: You are hold entirely by static 5-6mm cord and it is super hard to loosen if you are vertical.
If you have it below your device it just acts as a backup 3rd hand, that only has to hold the force after the device in braking position, which is much lower. That leads to a higher chance that you are able to loosen it up in vertical terrain without having to change the system entirely. Worst case is you have to tie a friction hitch abouve the device with a foot loop to deload the device and backup to loosen it, while with the backup abouve the device it could be to far up to reach it properly.
I think extended rappel with backup under the device is the safest and most convenient method to use.
May i ad that if your third hand is to close to your atc (in case its not extended someway) its able to touch (and more imortantly tilt) it, which will render it useless and you will slide down your rope with no breaking...
I like to go with the extended atc and a third hand from my legloop. this way i make sure that even if im knocked upside down its not able to reach to the atc.
I understand the reasoning behind putting your third hand below the extended ATC, but one argument to be made for having your third hand above the ATC is if you forget to tie stopper knots and end up rapping off the end with your ATC, there’s still a chance that the prusik could catch you before you’re completely off the rope
As has been mentioned in the previous comment this advice/method must be used with knowledge and experience... its pretty easy to keep proper spacing to allow your atc to work along with your lower backup while in a standing repel position... only to end up slipping, going feet up allowing your backup to disable your atc, sending you hurling headfirst at warp speed into anything below you... until you hit your stopper knot and break your spine 😬 It's a technique with great advantages, but can easily seemingly be safe until you learn the easy way or the hard way that your previously used regular spacing only works in regular positions 😉
Here in Europe the extended rappel with backup below is the standard method. Only in rare cases where there is a certain probability to have to climb-up on the rope would I place the backup above.
@@berryreading4809 true, i've seen this happen for real - raised leg allowed prussik to jam into rappel device, could be worse if it simply moved it along
We also read in a book all about 'arm' rappelling back in the 1970s from an old dusty book from the public library. Didn't read far enough to where it talks about this should only be used for low angle rappels. We learned to rappel out of a tree from about 20 feet up. Climbed a ladder and rappelled. Sent my friend up to try an arm rappel after reviewing the diagrams in the book. He started screaming and tried to get back on the ladder, but ended up kicking the ladder away. He then promptly fell to the ground while getting massive rope burns on and under his arms. Glad he went first (and last).
Never be the first one
I've tried dulfersitz once, just 2 metres. Burnt my neck. Never again.
Have practiced the arm rappel wearing a fire fighter turnout coat and gloves from as high as a third floor window. Important to keep the downside arm out stretched. Good times but would avoid it in light weight clothing.
Have seen training films of the Royal Marine Commandos doing this in WW2 they had full battle dress on not bare arms or a thin nylon top on.
Yeah, it was something that was taught in rappelling in the ADF. Used when without all the gear in an emergency, down gradients that can't be walked easily down and from memory was in a land warfare manual and well-known survival book and I have a vague memory it was originally from a French climber and trained to commandos during ww2. I can be wrong but it was usually double rope and used the body as a brake so down/ along arm over the shoulder across the chest from the hip onto brake arm. Not saying it was a great idea or even tried it, just useful knowledge in a pinch.
Smashed the like button, but only because Doug asked me to. If you'd like more smashing of buttons, have more Doug, it's that simple.
haha... noted. Saturday's video with him is ready to hit publish! Keep on smashing
Probably the best episode I've watched on this channel. I've had these "safety" conversations many times and found this episode very relatable and funny. Keep it up!
Please, keep Doug in the How Not 2 team! He brings great value as the grand father of the AMGA! I hope to meet you all the next time im in CA. Cheers
This episode felt so relaxed and the tone was funny yet serious when it needed to be, quality content, keep 'er lit
I was about to say the same. Loved the vibe. Made me feel happy just like that.
Doesn’t the main fellah seem super passive aggressive?
This is one of your greatest videos. Doug is legendary.
Love the constant snark. The clip where you "took us to the shop" and showed the knot lasting up until 21 kn, that was priceless.
Crazy story but when I was doing my Emt- p training 30 years ago we were out in the field doing repelling down to a patient dummy which we had to take to the bottom of a cliff. I got to the bottom and watched the student above bounce bounce down and the next bounce she went off the end of the rope as there was no knot. We actually used rope bags but nobody had tied the rope to the bag 😳. Needless to say it was the aloe tree vegetation that saved her life and broke her distance as she smashed them coming down a straight cliff 20m tumbling like a doll until she landed on a ledge about 5 m above me. It was silent and after a few seconds which felt like forever she burst into tears. I scrambled up she was alive but sever fractures to her legs and we ended up with a real evac and had to put her in the basket stretcher and with a real case
Doug needs to be regular talent on the channel. I’ve done countless raps but there’s always always room to learn. Wisdom can not be taught but must be earned through experience. Wisdom of previous generations needs preserved now more than ever imo. Thanks for the share guys. Good to see Bobby back at it.
Only 1 out of 4 people actually knows if there is a knot at the end of the rope.
Doug 2 seconds later: "look how coordinated we are"
One of the funniest safety videos I have watched in a long time.
Stay safe everyone!
Lessons from the master! I sincerely hope Doug continues to make videos with these guys!
Love bobby! All the bad shit that's happened to him lately and he's still smiling, laughing and joking about! 😊
He really is a gem! I always like the episodes when he pops up. Plus it usually means some footage outdoors.
Also Doug is like a real life superhero! And he's even cooler because the expression to smash the like button is totally unfamiliar to him. I hope I can be 1% as cool as him some day.
This is a gem! I just got interested in lead climbing after having done bouldering for a couple of years and this is exactly the things i wanted to know! The part with Doug forgetting end knots is a solid reminder that habit is the best way to make mistakes. The sarcasm and overall feel of the video was amazing! Thank you!
I'm 46 now, after a couple yosemite bigwallsaround the age of 15 while hiding amoung boulders in the valley for free camping I met an old schooler, it may very well have been pass the pitons pete zabrock. i wouldnt be surprised after having had met many infamous climbers in the valley! Amazing full stoke! this dude in the talus started talking about redundancy and rope dynamics. clueless at the time, now I know! Thank you Ryan very much for helping us all with gear fear. Cheers and pass the pitons!
Doug seems like the coolest guy ever! One of my favorite videos by far
Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
From my experience, the arm rappel is called "the French Arm rappel." Australian rappelling is face down with your friction device on your backside.
IMHO, there are occasional uses of the French Arm rappel. It can be used effectively on low angle slopes. Perhaps some of you know the bypass to the 5th Tea Cup on Dry Meadow Creek. It's low angle and if you need to get a few people to the next tea cup without the jump, it's a great technique to know. However like any technique, a climber has to know its limitations. Likewise in the video it was alluded to that tying a stopper knot isn't the right technique 100% of the time.
This is correct the Australian rappel is forward facing with a device
Yep, and for those wondering why you would face forward, it was invented so that a special forces group could rappel down a surface while still being able to shoot at enemy targets below.
As I stated above the hasty rappel (no braking device) technique is used in emergencies by the Miami Fire Department. We also used the Australian method for confidence building. Skilled individuals would actually run down the side of a building while facing the ground. I took my time.
the videos with Doug are fantastic! Such a wealth of stories and knowledge, and just seems like a charismatic storyteller.
This was by far the best, and most entertaining, climbing video I have ever seen. Just… great. Thank you. It also had everything in it that I was taught, which makes me feel “super good enough” when it comes to my rappelling.
These two videos with this guy are my favorite videos I’ve seen on this channel! So funny and informative with great stories and history.
I agree that it's really useful to say out loud what you're doing, so both you and your partner don't make a dumb mistake.
I'd really like to see a video on how not to bail. Bailing on alpine routes without bolts, aka bailing on gear @HowNOT2
I second this
Best case: Find a sturdy tree, outcrop etc. where you can put a sling around. Rappel from the sling. You’ll only lose a sling which is cheap. Disadvantage: You are polluting the mountains with plastic.
Worse case: Rappel from two or three nuts in very good placements. You can connect them with a sling so you don’t have to sacrifice quickdraws.
Even worse: Sacrifice cams.
This video might be my favourite on the channel so far. Doug is a gem.
Absolutely LOVE the sarcasm and style!! Great stuff. We've watched probably too many of your videos and love them all. We'll need to send you some of our V3 soft shackles someday for testing against the standard lanyard knot ones. Keep it up!
Thank you so much for this. Love the chilled + funny + serious demonstration and knowledge you put out there (and beautifully edited, too). Warm regards to Bobby, hope things are getting better
Great to see Doug out and about. shows you how many of the old school methods work just fine.
Really appreciate this kind of stuff. Learning how to do all this myself. Seeing videos of experienced people breaking it down AND reaffirming what I’ve pieced together is very helpful
If you are unable to do a proper course, I recommend finding friends with enough experience to teach you. Rappelling is a dangerous craft and this video only shows a little of all the tricks involved.
Doug Said it the best - I too thought a rappel video was boring but it was pretty good. Lol
While it was not explicitly stated, I'm glad they are following the number one rule of climbing with other people. SPEAK UP. Watching Doug get called out was cheeky sure, but it was also super important. It doesn't matter what their status or reputation is is. Everyone needs to be double checked
I read about climbing accidents about a year ago. Falling off the end of the rope when rappelling was a surprisingly common type of accident that resulted in fatality. (I think it was about 30% of all fatal trad/sport climbing accidents if I recall correctly). The recommendation by the agency that did the investigation was to always tie in stopper knots at the end of your rappel line.
Personally I am wary of recommendations to always or never do something as there are many different situations and scenarios. I prefer Bobby’s advice in this video “always CONSIDER “ using a stopper knot.
I have seen 2 live accidents this way (no real harm), and heard of another on 2nd person. This shit is real.
@@colinandrew8573 I think this is one of the cases where the "always" recommendation actually does more good than bad. The consequences for getting stuck on a wall are fairly minor even if common. Rather have 1000 people needing rescue from an awkward rappell than 10 people dying from rapping of the ends.
Falling off the end of a rope on rappel is what killed Brad Gobright. So yeah, fatal accidents do happen because people don’t/didn’t tie stopper knots in their rope.
With all of the double redundant systems climbers routinely use, I personally think stoppers in the end of a rappel rope should be considered absolutely mandatory.
You can tell how much they
Respect and love Doug
I looooove those Doug videos, what a great way to start hownot2! 🙌
Doug is such a cool person to be around
What a great caracter Doug is. Thanks a bundle!
Loving these episodes with Doug. More of Doug and his stories please!
You are gonna love the Saturday episode.
“I can assure you I’m not enjoying it that much” 😂😂
What a legend Doug! Awsome content as always guys!!
really loving this new channel already!
"im not gonna tell you to smash the like button" well you've convinced me, Im pressing like.
Top tip when putting the 3rd hand below the belay device - put this on first, and it takes the weight of the rope, leaving a loop of rope above to make it easier to put your belay device on
Exactly! Prusik on 1st, pull up some slack to take the weight of the rope onto your harness while you put on your ATC. That's a pro tip for sure.
Cant help but notice Dougs smile wrinkles. Thats a guy who has spent a lot of time smiling. Sign of a life well lived.
You guys are so funny, and Doug is the best. What a blast this day must have been.
Great video guys. I’m Swiss, live in the Alps and love mountaineering. My great great grand father (my profile picture) who was a famous mountain guide in the Zermatt area would be proud of you guys for being so fun while very informative. Thank you
I love this channel and you two in particular. Glad to see Bobby getting back into the swing of things after the accident. You guys had me cracking up in this video 😂
Love Bobbys white golf gloves 💜💜☺️
Dude don't know what you did this time but it WORKED. This has been first of my front page recomended for like... 9 hours or something? Great stuff
The ONLY "sponsor" promotion i've ever enjoyed!👍
Doug was great. I loved the energy he brought in.
You guys would be a blast to climb with. Doug is such a character. Great guys! Thanks for another video.
Another amazing episode from amazing people having fun.. felt like i was there . Keep up the fantastic work the how not 2 team
Doug is a treasure. I am closer in age to Doug and am new to climbing, 60 yo in December. Running into some physical challenges, but am well aware of not exceeding my competency or abilities. Having fun though.
If you clip your personal anchor to the rope you need to pull, it will remind you till your next belay station ;)
this was wonderful, thanks chaps.
This video was wholesome AF
I like the editing to add the break tests in these videos! Good addition
I thought it was way better than us just sitting in the lab telling you the use case for it. I'm hoping to do this on all activities from now on
Really liked the format of this video. loved the tutorial mixed with teleportation's. really awesome
Great video guys! Adding the hilarity is clutch in keeping in fresh. Keep it up!
Presic knot is awesome! What a useful versatile knot. Cleaver, safe, and devilishly simple. I love knots. I can't wait to start rock climbing NV
Bobby is such a wholesome human
So like keep bringin Doug back, great episode
Shirt suggestion: be mindful! Complete with a catchy and memorable graphic. Seems like most all climbing related injuries, accidents, and issues with area access could be avoided entirely with that simple but sometimes elusive idea. Be MINDFUL
I have no idea how I ended up here, but I smashed that like button
We call the European Death Knot by it acronym, EDK. Its the only knot we use for tying two rappel ropes together. It slides over the rock the best.
Love to see how much fun they had making this
This is the first time I smashed that like button. Doug rocks!
Yo I love the videos and I can see the effort you put in. Great video!
No doubt. I've definitely done some "walk offs" that were far more terrifying that the actual climb. The fact that y'all had one of the OG's of guiding as a guest was freak'n awesome.
25:58 Use the ATC upside down to have less friction.
26:37 Put the carabiner from the PAS on the rope you have to pull.
By upside down you mean brake side towards the top? I never tried that but it sounds a bit sketchy to me to disable the brake 🤔
@@MaxDuckwitz nope, it's in the manual. Totally legit.
@@MaxDuckwitz BD even includes belaying off that side in the manual--the brake side is considered the "extra friction" side. I don't ever use it for belaying, but I have lighter weight climbing partners that get a much smoother feed from the non-brake side while rappelling (which stresses your rappel anchor less!)
@@MaxDuckwitz Like others said, it's totally intended; BD leaves you friction options depending on use. In the case of an extended ATC backed up w/ a friction knot, the rope's always held the braking direction & you have a backup also giving bonus friction. All that on a low angle rappel, and you're going to have WAY too much friction to descend (as Ryan encountered).
Ok, i'm taking the bait:
I was taught that the idea of an extended rappel is that, if the prusik blocks, it will force your ATC to block too.
This is probably also the reason why people put the prusik on their leg loop: You are still relying on the ATC to do the actual blocking. But that still seems a little bit sketchy to me.
There are a handful of benefits to extended rappel. One of which is having the ATC up where it is seen better. But the main one I learned as it’s actual reason was to be able to pass a knot onto a second rope - you would have slack to do so at the ATC and slack behind it. And have it in a manageable location to do so - as opposed to behind you… Learned that in some SARS training in the Navy/Marine Corps.
As well as guarantees that your backup was not out of reach - which can happen if a Prussik were above and misgauged in length. But you can also misgauge the length of a prussik below and have that back up fail. The extension gives you more space to do so.
AAC has a “know you’re ropes” series and also some good applications in why you should extend.
Hahaha I love the IMMEDIATE shade thrown at that mammut rope for not having a middle marker
Doug gets my like.
this was such a great video !! love the editing 😁
I like this video that invite more friends to hand out, lot of laughing here and also come with knowledage as usual, nice one.
Doug seems to be a really nice person to be around.
Just such a great video - fun, funny, informative, educational, well shot, well edited and linked to your other videos and a great real-world, in-practice camaraderie between all you guys. The first time I have been moved to comment since following the channel so that must say something in itself. Keep doing what you're doing, finding your channel during the pandemic and various subsequent "lockdowns" has been a godsend and even though i consider myself a very knowledgeable climber with 20+ yrs experience i have still learnt a LOT. Much love from sunny Scotland.
Thanks for the kind words. From rainy (we wish) California,
I’m an Australian and you summed us up perfectly.
"Double check eachother" best piece of advice. even experienced climbers get distracted or exhausted sometimes. Best gear in the world won't save you if you forget to tie in.
competent and fun have captured my atention... muchas gracias, chicos!
What a great video. You guys are awesome.
Slick way to unweighten jammed stuff on overhangs - you tie a clove hitch (or any sort of loop) on your rope (below you), put your foot in it, stand up, loose your knot. Can be done in few seconds, no additional gear needed.
Don't work as you by weighting the rope below your rappell device will make it brake and lock you in place.
Better to use a 120m sling and prusik it above you to unweight your device and prusik.
@@JohanMood it works, just try it some time. Device is locked, but its biner and belay loop still allow more than enought movement to unweighten stuck prussik. Wont work for knot passage though..
Not a climber. Not thinking about it anytime soon. Just subscribed. Great people, great content! I am happy I found you
Worth a mention that two very different sized ropes will run through a belay device at different rates, thus moving the center mark from where you had it (like if you're using a tag line.)
Also a mention of the firemans belay would be nice. Even if only for trolling friends.
New climber, really enjoying your videos!
Doug should be a regular on the channel!
Immediately when I saw the thumbnail I thought that everyone would make fun of the Australia Rappel. But it is a legit technique used in caving for short descents on slippery slopes. You save time by not having to tie in the descender and time is critical on big caving trips in the alps.
Yes, much better than the alternative that I occasionally see, someone just holding onto the rope and descending hand over hand.
Right. I came down here to say this. We call it a 'shoulder abseil', and we (cavers) use it quite often. The important thing is that it's no good if it gets so steep that your feet come off the floor/wall and dangle - things get exciting (and very uncomfortable). Great for slopes under about 45 degrees, less if it's slippery. Also doug didn't have it quite right - he had the rope round his neck rather than his shoulders/back. You want to avoid it riding up too high by making sure it meets the back under the arm not over the arm.
Great video as always
This video, as all your others is excellent and covers a great range of the necessary skills. As an international mounting guide
(IFMGA) of similar experience to Doug your guest, I would adda couple more points that I always teach:
1. Before beginning an abseil I get everybody to check that their harnesses are safely buckled (a friend of mine lost a client who fell out of his harness on an abseil).
2. To ensure I have the middle of the rope at the abseil anchor I match the ends of the rope before tying the ends together. I then throw the both ropes as one. They then both go the same direction.
3. In windy or difficult conditions the first to abseil carries the ropes down in a bag as cavers do. Coiling the ropes around the body an suffice.
4. Before the last abseil the folks at the bottom of the pitch do a short test pull of the correct strand of rope. If it doesn't run the person above can adjust it so that it does pull OK before leaving the top anchor.
5. As a backup knot the French Prussic (the French call it an
Autoblock) which is far superior to the Prussic Knot in it's management and ability to engage when required.
I hope this helps.
Keep up the good work. It is very valuable to many people.
Awesome video! Smart and funny isn't a bad way to get things done.
Try pre rigging everybody's extended rappel at the top. There are two main advantages. 1) You can be double check each other. 2) If someone raps off the end of one rope the atc at the top anchor will keep the rope from pulling through.
I've definitely done this before with people I'm teaching. You can go ahead 1st without worrying about them above. It's a good trick when showing people how to rap.
The Australian rappel is actually handy but not used a lot. Since a lot of places in Aus are very loose but not very tall it saves the hassle of having to put on a harness for something not worth abseiling down (mostly when canyoning). I have never used it on big cliffs or anything vertical usually only when you would use a hand line and want to be lazy about it.
Hi I.A.G.A. certified guide trainer here. (IAGA - International Adventure Guide Association, was a European training agency, sadly gone now.) Trained cave, canyoning, and climbing guides.
For a how to rappel video that was not so hot. The first one with the ATC, we were always taught control hand behind your butt because that gives a bit more friction over the hip and avoids getting the glove (or a finger) jammed in the descender, and non control hand Al Bundy style, i.e. thumb tucked into the waist strap. That stops people grabbing he rope above the descender if they slip. Also feet shoulder width apart and weight well back, legs ninety degrees to the slope and keep the rope outside your legs on the control side so you don't trip on it. Stopper knots are OK, but never use them when abseiling, sorry, rappelling into water.
At a guides only training day we set up a free hanging abseil with the rope deliberately too short and a prussik back up on a second rope. For safety we had the guide on a third top belay rope. The idea was for the guides to each abseil down blindfolded and when they abseiled off the end of the rope to let go the prussik and save themselves. First time everyone reflexively held on tighter to the prussik sliding it down and were stopped on the belay rope. After practice we were able to let the prussik go and it usually melted and fused into the rope! Most reliable back up on a double rope was a Petzl Shunt on a sling above your descender, holding a 3mm cord between two knuckles, or thumb and finger, of your free hand to drag it down.
I have used the "Aussie" technique, or shoulder belay for rappelling/descending some 4th class ice/snow. There is a tricky section on the ascent and descent of Mt. Washington, via the Lion's Head winter route. Ascent is pretty straight forward with Crampons, but descent is sketchy. A doubled over rope, and shoulder belay make it a quick and easy descent with minimal gear and setup. With softshell or technical shell, it's also pretty smooth.
Damn I love Doug!
thanks for this.. watched 3 times last wknd. i am just starting and learned alot from this. i did my first rappel yesterday!
Glad we could help!
When I learned to climb - 1960s - I abseiled (rappelled) on a doubled nylon twisted rope with no metal at all, rope through right hand, between legs, around right leg, over right shoulder, around back, around left arm and held in left hand, slowed by bringing arm round body, stop by arm against chest, not too comfy but safe. I also belayed with rope around right arm, round back and around left arm, again control by wrapping arm over chest. I was practicing cliff rescue at Berry Head Torbay where a rescuer and “victim” were in a webbing harness being pulled up cliff and was holding on safety rope to victim, another climber had safety rope on rescuer. Harness broke when they reached top of cliff and they fell until I caught them both, other safety rope had more slack than me. I was tied to a fixed point on cliff top. We pulled them up, checked for injuries etc.. I went straight from there to be tied to a wheeled stretcher and lowered down the cliff. Quite exciting for a sixteen year old.
dug is 100% the reason i smashed the like button, but good video!
You're the best Thank you so much!
Thank you for a really good educational video thats super entertaining. Best rock climbing content if you are new to the sport, which I am.
glad to see you having fun on that class 4