How NOT 2 Multipitch Climb with Doug Robinson
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 10. 2021
- I got to climb with Doug Robinson! Super fun! Bobby and Mike climb next to us and we all give tips about multipitch climbing as we go up. This is not comprehensive and we will use microphones in the future, but it was fun and we wanted to share it.
➜➜➜Episodes we referred to:
►How NOT to Trad video:
• How NOT to Trad Climb
►Doug Robinson Interview
• Doug Robinson - OG Yos...
👉 Learn and SHOP at www.hownot2.com/shop
👉 Best EMAILS on Earth: www.hownot2.com/signup
👉 SUPPORT US and get gear discounts hownot2.com/support
👉 10% off ROCKY TALKIE by clicking www.hownot2.com/rocky
Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
Doug Robinson is climbing national treasure! I think I'd watch a video of him tying his shoes.
9:00 you're clipping the rope end biners to your harness, you maniac! 😂
"hopefully, short team wins". I gotta say, you are climbing with Doug Robinson (and vice versa), on a perfect day on perfect rock.. A win, X 100, not matter who is atop first.
Few notes for safety:
1st before Climbing; both leader and follower should be tied in to the ends rope. Leader on the leading end and follower on the dead end. This is so both can double check knots. And the lead will not pull rope to far. It's happened to me, I pulled the rope and the follower was getting her shoes on and missed the end of the rope. I had to alpine bomb the rope down and just trust that she tied her figure 8 correct.
2nd the double quick draw anchor, with gates opposite and opposed, is super good enough only if it is attended, never use that type of anchor out of sight.
3rd if you have locking carabiners, use them. There really not that expensive. So please invest.
4th to get down watch the how not 2 repel video.
This was a great video showing different ways of doing it. Always more than one way to skin a cat, and some less bloody than others. Same goes with climbing, and remember if somebody you're climbing with is doing something you feel is sketchy bring it up! Personal example; I've had somebody do the double quick draw anchor set as a top rope system, I had to literally show them if they twist the rope in the wrong way and loaded how it might pop out of one or both carabiners. I then gave them my quad and 4 screw gates as a gesture of friendship. Also means I get to buy new gear for myself ☺️.
Always a great video I'm sure this will get a lot of hits! Thank you Ryan, Bobby, Doug and Mike!
“if somebody you're climbing with is doing something you feel is sketchy bring it up” The problem is that most of the time you won’t be there to see or notice it. For example if they let go of the dead end of the rope.
@@Mike-oz4cv of course you have to witness it to notice it. But when you do, bring it up. The main point is don't be afraid to point out sketchy shit. I'm going to like your reply, because respect.
1 is great - surprised doug wasn't tied in before they started. But 2 and 3 are kinda ??? for a video about multi pitch. How would an anchor be unattended on a multi pitch? 3 is like ok, people love lockers but the vast majority of accidents are human error not biners coming unclipped randomly. When biners do unclip themselves it's typically on pro or bolts on lead from slings or the rope unclipping itself but no one uses lockers on pro or bolts anyway.
@@zachdaigneault264 I put the other ones in there because I'm not just talking about probabilities, I'm talking about possibilities. And I see quick draw anchors unattended all the time. This comment it's not for the experienced, but for the new climbers, who may not think about the difference between an attended anchor and an unattended anchor. They may think; "well an anchor is an anchor."
I had a friend who I was showing how to multi-pitch, only use wire Gates on PAS. As he was shifting side to side, his PAS unclipped from the bolt. Luckily he had two points in, and he only fell a few inches because of that. Heck my first time I was just using a single quick draw as a PAS and until my climbering partner pointed out the potential problem.
Each one of my points has a story behind them. And once again, some of them may be more likely scenarios than others. But the fact that their scenarios at all is the reason why I put them up.
The double quickdraw anchor is pretty unlikely to fail as long as the gates face outwards, for single pitch sport this would be my default way to set up a toprope after leading it... To be fair, the one in this video has one gate facing into the rock, which is weird. I'd only use it with the biners parallel to the rock and the rope directly through both draws, gates facing out
You know the saying "Old habits die hard"? Look at the way OG Doug secured that belay device. Cheers!
I learned how to climb via this channel and Hard is Easy. THANK YOU DUDE!
Thanks so much for this video. My girlfriend and I watched it before her first time climbing outside. She was looking for something to be ready for a mutlipitch, or even just cleaning a route, and seeing a video really helped her. Thank you!
This format of double filming then Editing it in sequence was really good.
I found it really confusing and distracting :(
This material is like most how-to books on many subjects: you only understand it perfectly if you already know how to do everything shown, in which case you're watching the video for fun and as a refresher. In my case, since I don't know what 'guide mode' is, I didn't understand those parts. But then, I've only done one multi-pitch and I never lead. But my partner introduced the concept of SimulClimbing halfway up, so I naturally I got that part of this video. If you don't know what it means, it's that there's no belayer, just 2 climbers who are passively belaying each other with their body weight and the total friction in the system. As Doug explained, the guy on the bottom gets off easy if he falls while SimulClimbing, whereas the lead climber will feel a downward pull that could cause him to fall whatever the distance he is from his protection.
20 minutes with Doug is simply unacceptable, Buddy. We need atleast 45. He is our leader.👽
Love the channel, but have to echo the concerns. Some complacency definitely on display here. Stay safe out there y'all!
Some... complacency? Massive complacency. I think this kind of laissez-faire belaying and station building is actively harmful, especially when categorized as "educational".
I can’t believe you guys have to keep traveling all the way to Key West and back again every time you want to climb that face…. But, I guess you really rack up the air miles, which is also pretty cool. I’m also glad Bobby had a good day (for real) and didn’t wind up in the hospital… Once was enough!!
very nice video, it helps to see how others do things, for noobs in climbing like me or even for more experienced people for also see diferent ways to go
Please if you are new to climbing do not follow this videos as it shows very bad practices. You can go to JB mountain skills channel if you want some solid piece of information
@@julespivet9996 I guess that this is like every thing everyone has it's own ways to do things, I check this channel, but I also like the content of this channel, for learning, could you tell me what are they doing wrong in this video??
@@EricNietofilms I have posted another comment where I have highlited some of the mistakes of this video you can check it out for more details.
Love your videos but have to ask, what is your cellphone secure system to carry it while climbing and filming. I was using mine at a crag and felt super sketchy reaching into a pocket, and having no wrist tether or anything to prevent it dropping too its doom. What do you do to keep yours safe?
Jumped out of an airplane with a guy wearing a shirt that said "Safeish" once or twice. Happy to hear you use the word in this one :)
If you’re learning to climb off of CZcams and you are upset at the quality of this free content, you have only yourself to blame. Plenty of other options out there to round out your knowledge - I hear you can even learn some from TikTok nowadays… Maybe these guys wouldn’t pass an IFMGA advanced course with every technique used here but I agree with the statement “super safe enough”. Some good tips in here, keep doing you Ryan. Thanks for putting in work on these.
Totally awesome route
Doug Robinson is an awesome dude
Don't know if someone has already said it, but one major difference between guide mode and redirecting off the Anchor. Guide mode essentially halves the force on the Anchor when the follower falls as it's only supporting their force. Redirecting needs to support the force they are loading as well as the opposing force of the belayer
But guide mode hardens the fall by eliminating belayer movement. I'm not sure which of these factors wins, I wouldn't be surprised if the force on the anchor ended up similar.
@@serges201 This is something I've always wondered and would love to see tested (I would be very surprised if the forces in guide mode were lower, even with the factor of ½). Not that it matters since your 2nd will be top roping either way on an anchor that can handle a lead fall
yeah interesting. this definitely needs testing
I think that's false. Belayer weight is the only force from the belayer. If leader falls that the force is entirely from the leader, belayers weight softens the force on the anchor like a counter weight. I learned to belay off my harness almost exclusively when I started and it's a great tool if you don't have to flake the rope neatly and you can just stack it on the ground or ledge. I normally just use an ATC guide now because I like to have my hands free at the belay. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet and use your brains out there!
You guys should strength test an anchor system, like a quad, where the carabiners are clipped over the chains vs. under. Under’s super annoying to clean so I wonder if there’s any safety concerns to clipping on top of the chains.
Yes. It like to see that too. I always lift the chains and clip under so the carabiners are not being leveraged improperly.
We have been talking about that test for years. it hasn't hit the top of the priority list yet.
@@HowNOT2, well it should. 😁 Love your channel regardless. It's such a common practice out of convenience. I'd love see what happens.
is super annoying, the same as very annoying???
This video should be titled...."If Doug Robinson can get away with it, why can't I?"
Severely not okay with trusting a single bolt. Especially when there’s an easy redundant bolt right there.
Belay/Rappel stations have two for a reason.
Think the same although some friends dont mind and i remember climbing in frankenjura where you d always rapel in sport routes from only one bolt down
There's TONS of situations on sport climbs around the world where if a single bolt failed you would ground fall, especially where bolts are spaced more "old school". People trust a single bolt hundreds of times in their climbing lives whether they know it or not.
@@zachdaigneault264, but a multi-pitch anchor can receiver higher loads than a lead bolt can ever experience. The primary example is when a leader falls before the first bolt is clipped on the following pitch. That's a fall factor 2 scenario.
The amount of time that they would actually be relying on a single bolt is very low. For the majority of the time the two bolts are either linked by the anchor (when bringing up a second) or the rope is clipped through other bolts elsewhere.
Dudes, can you break some Reverso that is clipped upside down. So the master carabiner is clipped to the LITTLE hole that's used for lowering in guide mode? In this case the master carabiner has to be with very thin gate lock but it happened to me once. :)
I mean, it's in the title guys. This is how NOT to multipitch!
Yea this is not good, especially when we start to hear people referencing this video and using these techniques at the crag :/
OH man, Doug is my new favorite person in the world
11:41 for shame Bobby! You didn't lock that carabiner!
Yes. And immediately afterwards you can see him clove hitched into a single non-locking carabiner. That’s how Kurt Albert, the “inventor” of red point climbing died.
@@Mike-oz4cv great point to bring up! Never trust a single non-locker or a single unlocked locker.
Awesome video Ryan! You’ve got so much amazing content. However, you haven’t tested the gear that climbers probably trust the least! Where are the big bros?
When you get the drop tower set up, you definitely need to test factor 2 falls on slings (PAS) vs factor 2 on clove hitched rope.
You mean this? czcams.com/video/Vrgadjo9niY/video.html
@@stephenevans2518 not quite, I don't think. I'd like to see a comparison of the methods people use for personal anchors. ie, dyneema slings vs nylon slings vs link chain PAS (Metolius Personal Anchor System) vs dynamic PAS (petzl connect adjust)
You could easily have a factor 2 fall on your personal anchor if you stepped above the connection point and fell.
@@brendan714 Agreed
It's odd that Ryan belayed the follower equalized off two bolts but the leader off a single bolt via his tether.
There were quite a few questionable decisions.
I do think it would be cool to see an end-to-end multipitch example with no switching back and forth between two teams:
1. both climbers tie in with an 8 and double-check eachother
2. climbing
3. anchor/clove hitch, "Off Belay!"
4. set up top belay (option 1: climber shows guide mode, Option 2 a grigri with redirect)
5. follow climbing
6. swap lead
8. Bottom belay with redirect
9. Top Belay with option 2 and rope management
10. rappelling with ATC
11. rappelling with grigri and tag line
not from these guys
Hi, could you test the knot shown at 2:25 the figure 8 but with the end threaded back to prevent locking. I'm really curious how strong it is since we use it all the time.
Where is this? Looks perfect for easy multi pitch practice.
Would love to see a series on basics of rock climbing, for people just getting into the sport.
I don't even climb but still watch this for some reason :D
Legend.
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS use a redirect until your climber is at their first bolt. As soon as they are at their first bolt, you can take the rope out of the redirect, as the redirect quick draw can be annoying sometimes.
Good video overall guys.
Yes. And it has nothing to do with factor 2 falls like Doug mentioned. The main problem is that a tube style belay device will provide basically zero assistance if the climber’s rope is going downwards. You have to redirect the climber’s rope upwards.
Not necessary if using a munter hitch to belay
@@rockclimbinghacks9222 How about when you are anchored in, and your climber falls with 10’ or rope out. They fall 20’, plus your weight on the anchor. That’s a lot of shock load, plus, super uncomfortable for the belayer.
You do you tho.
@@Mike-oz4cv Agreed. It’s all about managing the direction of force. And also limiting how much force is transferred to the belayer as well.
@@dannyswayze2133 it doesn't matter because i belay off the anchor, à la banshee belay. With an indirect belay as you describe, there's a risk of the belayer getting sucked up into the redirect, that's why I prefer to go direct with a munter and a banshee belay czcams.com/video/DZ_G7iFMZ2c/video.html
Hey one big question . What can I do if my rope gets stuck with something when I’m pulling it down from the rappel station above me?
Looking to head out there any tips
what is the yellow webbing anchor called he is using at 8:04 ?
Wow, this is so different from how we do it here in Austria (and honestly I think our way is better :D ).
Is there a video that I can watch how you guys do it over there? I'm always curious about different systems, the more I have in my back pocket the more I feel safe.
I second the previous comment also whats different and why does yours work better? I don't think the u.s. really uses one style everyone out here is different, but still would love to see your style.
@@johnrusty2298 Can’t find a good video (and certainly not in English), but here’s a list of a few things:
• We usually use half ropes.
• Because we use half ropes we don’t need voice commands. When we are safely clipped into the anchor we quickly pull in ~5m of one rope to signal “off belay”. When both ropes are taut the follower knows they can start climbing.
• We don’t use a carabiner as our central anchor point but instead just tie a bowline on a bight into a sling. Each end of the sling get clipped to a bolt using screw gate carabiners. Everything gets clipped into the central loop. This simple setup is a full belay station (in this case using a munter hitch to belay): www.bergwelten.com/files/article/images/1-klettern-stand-reihenverankerung.jpg?impolicy=768_dsw
• We belay from this central, fixed point. Not from the harness.
• When you belay from the fixed point and there is no easy to reach “dummy” quickdraw above the belay station for the climber to clip into (to ensure the climber’s rope pulls upwards in case of a fall) you can instead clip the *dead end* of the rope to the fixed point.
@@Mike-oz4cv okay, cool. We use half ropes for zigzagy trad, but not often on sport, maybe some areas if bolts wander, but non I've seen yet. The sling is definently the biggest difference, but makes sense with the lack of a horizontal two bolt anchor in the picture, although the location of the munter hitch in the picture is sketchy (on the bar tag). I also don't really know this belay system, but it seems to me the point the second is on is the weakest, and even weaker than just using one bolt as a belay (given sling will break before the bolt most times. The two bolts and belay system looks like its good for the belayer. But the second is in a scary situation no? I think in this case I'd rather the munter carabiner be through the lower bolt carabiner, then if it the bolt blows its kinda backed up by the sling... I generally like to make sure my second is safer or at least as safe as me. Thanks for the reply, and please let me know if I have the system wrong in my head. I'm mostly looking at the picture, so its possible I'm not understanding it right.
@@johnrusty2298 Ooops, first I say we use half ropes and then I show you a photo of a single rope setup :D
Regarding your concerns: I think generally we assume that a sling in good shape won’t break while a badly placed bolt might break (just like a single carabiner in the belay device is considered sufficient). Also: Clipping the munter hitch carabiner directly to the bolt (while still having it backed up by the sling) could make handling awkward. Even more so if you use a tube style belay device. Which I usually do because it’s easier to handle, especially with half ropes.
is this the same area from your how not 2 bolt a sport climb ground up?
The belaying with the device off the anchor thing is nifty and I know a lot of people like it but I've always left the device on my harness. As you showed at the end of the video, complicating things can turn deadly. Hip belays are perfectly good. We used to use them a lot on slabs in Oklahoma because you could reel in rope fast if the leader fell. I got saved once that way. We did the things we read about in Robbin's Basic Rock Craft.
I need you to break test Dougs hip belay
Why is no one holding the brake strand of Doug's rope between when he arrives at the first belay and before he tethers in? Really?
Its an auto-block on easy terrain, and they are filming, so that's why, but if you* are a new climber watching this as a how to guide, I'd suggest it only as a what it looks like kinda guide. Anyone in the sport should really be digging deep on safety all the time and know what is dangerous and safe for themselves. ( you like anyone watching)
wow this is sooooo different to what is common in europe or at least the way the Dutch instructors teach multipitch. Not that it’s wrong - hey we’ve got no mountains of our own, what do we know - but different for sure
I build houses for a living (5 days a week for 5 years on heights for 1/2 the time) and hate to be clipped into something unless I'm likely to fall (8/12+ or snowy 2nd story). I'm sure I can learn something here thought?
Aye, I’ve found some of the excessive jobsite clipping a bit distracting-plus now you have a potential entanglement or suspension trauma situation-or more likely, hitting the ground from a stepladder anyway! The joy of clipping into an anchor while climbing is being able to fall-on a climbing rope the catch doesn’t suck near as much as a jobsite catch either. My experience at climbing anchors is more like watching a lineworker climb a pole, then do a two-handed task at the top.
Why two different anchors 1) 2 quickdraws and 2) the sliding x sling?
I often forgot I was watching a how not to vid..lots going on.
What route is this?
@1:15 wow backup! whats with the fancy fig 8?!
Ryan, is the fact that your helmet always a liiiiitle bit on the side a fashion choice? :)
There's so much weird stuff going on in this video. Some of these anchors aren't actually anchors. I get that this is super easy climbing but should this really be an instructional video on good multipitch climbing? The only thing that looked good was the guy building an anchor with the rope.
Yes. There is questionable or weird stuff happening every 30 seconds.
To be fair, the channel *is* called "How Not 2".... So anything that seems sketchy, let's not do that lol
What is this route? Looks like the Tahoe/Sierra area
P1"show me"
P2"Now YOU SHOW ME!"
Where is the place your climbing at
Mike, where's your helmet?
Anyone know what route this is? Might try it for my first multi pitch!
The Great Plains, and the Pass at Emigrant Wall.
Location?
19:03 Ryan, so we found out in your brake test video that some of these wires are held in with some epoxy. If somebody leaves their ATC in their car and lives in the desert (palm springs, death valley, Joshua Tree, Arizona) in the car can get up to over 140°. And the ATC was in the Sun, it can easily get over the temperature needed to liquefy that epoxy, especially cheap low temp stuff. That's probably why the wire came out on that person for no reason. Not saying you're being skeptical of them or anything I'm just giving it an example of what can happen.
Epoxies can't liquefy after curing because they're thermoset. Around the glass transition temperature, they'll get gummy, but regain strength on cooling.
@@StatsBedrock ok, that is true. So when we remove glue in bolts with heat and that is with high end epoxy.
Now I'm not disagreeing with you at all. What if the ATC is orientated where gravity lets the heated gummed up epoxy drip down before resetting? Also this guy may have had a badly made ATC. We really don't know but I was throwing out a scenario.
Edit: heck his wires may have been set in with super glue.
@@StatsBedrock what if they get gummy and shift
What crag is this? I'd like to check out Bobby's stuff
Emigrant Wall. Currently in the Caldor fire closures.
I still watch the Moving Over Stone videos. D.R. is a legend. At 7:58, you are hanging from one bolt without a belay. Don't know about that. Cordelette would make things much better. Giving a master loop to tie into. Not a big fan of the "guide mode" of belay. You have to go back to the belay loop to lead belay, which you should do a whole new safety check. Where is the benefit? I get it if you are belaying a newbie and they keep falling but most people, on most climbs don't fall, and if they do the friction takes most of the weight anyway. At 7:30, if you were to fall the Gri-Gri could be pulled into the carabiner that can inhibit the cam, the self-locking mechanism. However, the new manual does show this way so I am not sure what has changed so maybe it isn't a problem. At 12:17 I don't know about belaying on one bolt, with one non-locking carabiner. People on El Cap have died when a bolt failed.
How did fellow climber break his arm?
Interesting that you chose to use pas on the way up and not clove in. Why is that?
I like how you say that you won't ask me to hit the like (because it's annoying) and straight after that you assume that I'm binge watching your videos. Which isn't far from the truth. I'm not a rock climber, but I do love watching your videos.
Where is your helmet Mike?
It was before you had the rocky talky? Hahah so much shaulting
I must say that i have watched and enjoyed all you videos since the very begining on slackchat and stuff. But this is the first time i have to comment something negative.
This video is at best impossible to understand for begginers and at worst dangerous. Several techiniques shown here should NEVER be used by anyone !
Why would you make a video showing how to multipitch and be only clipped into one bolt when there is a perfectly safe one lying 20cm to the right ?
Why would you make that horrendus anchor with draws ? Yes it is safe(ish) but it is not at all desireable and should not be show in this context.
Why would you show doug using a static sling as a personal anchor and not say anything about the potential dangers of this practice ?
Why would you use that huge permanent hook in this type of educationnal video ? I am saying that you will never see one in a multipitch route and therefore no one should expect one.
The only thing that makes this video less dangerous is that a begginer wouldn't understand a thing as there is no structure, it is going all over the place.
How is someone that doesn't already know how to multipitch supposed to learn anything from this ? We don't understand what you did before you show it, we don't see anyone flaking a rope.
And come one please show at least one anchor from the moment you climb to it, to the point where you have to leave it. Make cuts if you want but this is a total shitshow.
I'll finish by linking a video (and all of the channel for that matter) where you can really see the good stuff being done : czcams.com/video/fZhlKDHhVvM/video.html
I hope you remake or modifiy this video as it is way below the usual standards of what you do on this channel.
Sorry for the english mistakes this is not my primary language.
Great job linking to one of JB's videos, he has some amazing content.
Slings are used as anchor all the time
@@BM-tk1cn True, but as they are static they should be constantly loaded and never allowed to be shock loaded. At least I'm assuming that's what @jules is referring to.
@@nicholasdark1270 Yes that's what I meant thanks. They are used by everyone (myself included) but there are some real dangers involved and should be adressed in this kind of instructional video.
Yeah--the double draw anchors is just silly. I think what happened is they just knew going into the climb that it was a super easy low angle slab, so it was not necessary for them to take the climb seriously. As a result, the ability of this video to teach anything actionable was infected by their carelessness (to be clear--it was pretty safe in this context, but I assume the video was intended to be more generally applicable).
There are many things here which are completely different from the standards and not recommended at all but then the video is how NOT to multi
But the deviations from the standards here are too subtle to be for entertainment.
Where is this wall?
www.mountainproject.com/area/113406457/emigrant-wall
1:33 has Doug Robinson his carabiner clipped into only the upper loop?
I looked like it was through both to me. I learned to climb when there were no belay loops yet. Doug did too. I sure like the convenience of a belay loop now though.
Looked like both. But why didn't he use the belay loop? That's what it's designed for.
In the past there was some differing opinions how to clip the belay device. Even some manufacturer recommended this method, but not anymore.
@@twinmike1 Because belay loop wasn't a thing when he started...
I was gonna say the same thing. Probably because he brakes to the side instead of down with an old-school underhand belay method. Not my preference, but I'd take a belay from him any day
why are the belay bolts on the edges of overlaps/flakes? worst possible place to put them from a strength point of view.
doug's belay at 12:17 could be better...he's actually running belay rope through left bolt, so somewhat indirectly on it, but many people watching might not realize and think clove hitching a single non-locker is ok.
Where are you climbing? Exactly.
Mike - hope that you get a helmet for Christmas...............
What accident happened to Bobby?
m.czcams.com/video/4X6LCgvMkt8/video.html
Quite entertaining video, however, bolts or not, a fixed or not fixed triangle at each belay using the two anchors is in order. Clipping the belay device directly to one of the bolts is a no-no in my book. Also, each climber should be double thethered to the belay central point (or at least one of them) not because of strength requirements, but because by mistake you or your partner can remove one o your attachments. Well done, but it could be done better.
Love your vids, but there’s so much YGD cringe in this one. Cloving into non-lockers, tethering into single bolts, and failing to lock belay carabiners. The QuickDraw anchor on multi pitch is just weird and I think you should have showed something more conventional with a redundant master point for your second to clove into. I’m all on board with “Not everything in the system can be redundant” but why not use both bolts at an anchor when they’re right there?? It sounds like these bolts were recently installed by Bobby but most bolts in the wild should be treated with a healthy suspicion and trusting your life to a single bolt is a bad practice to show to newbies. Bolts “should” be strong, but man I’m not trusting my life to “should”.
Yeah, lots of mistakes here that you could get away with, but not really great for a tutorial video.
I guess it is called "how not to"
The quick draw anchor on multi's is very very common. I'd love for someone to show an accident report where wiregates getting unclipped at a multipitch anchor was the cause. A massive 22kn biner as a masterpoint is also super common the world over. You trust your life to 1 locking biner on your belayer's device every time you step off the ground. Every sport climber trusts their lives to a single bolt way more often than they realize - there's ground fall scenarios if the 2nd 3rd or sometimes even the 4th bolt fail on a huge amount of sport climbs everywhere. Not everything is gym safe.
@@zachdaigneault264 I didn’t say it was unsafe, I said it was weird and not the best thing to show to newbies. I also said I don’t think everything needs to be redundant. I would build that anchor if I had to and trust it but the rope is better and a sling is better if you’re not swinging leads mostly because when he pulls he’s belay device off the draws there is nothing tying the two bolts together which…why. If you’re going to use this anchor I think you should use a master carabiner at the end of the draws.
@@zachdaigneault264 if I saw a quick draw anchor, it'd tell me they're a gumbie sport climber who didn't bring the right tools for the job. It works, but it's sloppy. It doesn't allow you to be even remotely equalized unless the bolts are at exactly the same height and the direction of pull is straight down. Linking a carabiner onto another non-locking carabiner is just asking for it to become unclipped if there's any funny business. Just use a double-length sling and make a master-point style anchor. If you think that takes too long, it just means you're bad at it and need more practice. Anyone experienced should be bringing several double-length slings on any multipitch. They can be use for the anchor, a personal tether (seriously people, ditch the double PAS's worn like a thong), a rappel extension, an etrier, a friction hitch, etc. etc. etc. Doing a multipitch with a PAS (or worse, two PAS's) and a bunch of sport quickdraws with short dogbones just screams noob.
Also Doug's belay technique (9:50) is well shy of state-of-the-art (PBUS)
11:40 red is dead!
I highly recommend hiring a guide to learn best practice. While the techniques in this video can work, they are not best practice and only work in this situation. I am sure Ryan knows this and showed these methods to to their simplicity.
Calling off-belay while clipped to a single bolt? Why?
It's probably super good enough if the bolts and rock quality are good. Lots of belay scenarios in this video were performed off a single bolt and with the carabiner leveraging over the chain/links. In my opinion it's not a good practice to belay off a single bolt and is never taught in any guide training that I've participated in.
If you can fall onto a single bolt that is designed to hold 32kn, on a quickdraw designed to hold 22kn, you can easily clip into a single bolt with 1kn of body weight *(obviously check the bolt is safe first)
As said before a single bolt is pretty bomber, but you don't know who bolted it, don't know the rock quality, don't know how many repeated falls it has taken, and there are a lot of old button heads and weak hangers out there. Especially at random crags in the Southwest desert.
Note to everyone: if you haven't seen what unsafe bolts/hangers look like. Google them and familiarize yourself with what they look like. I bailed on a climb because I took a factor 2 fall on an old button head with a hand cut anchor from the 70-80s (?) Era. I didn't want to reload that anchor again, and I noted that this route needs proper re-bolting. I am still trying to get a hold of stewart's of that area, but from seems like no one is anymore.
@@chriswright7083 Why even have 2 bolts at a belay station then? 1 bolt can hold the worst leader fall plus the belayer's body weight right?
@@chriswright7083 I’ll trust a good, single bolt if I have to. But WHY take the risk if there is a perfectly good second one right there??
I wonder if showing controversial techniques is for the algorithm ;)
Does Bolting Bible have same amount of mistakes?
I'm a big fan of the channel, but there are so many things in this video (designed for beginners?) that made me cringe.
1:35 Doug should be tied in to the other end of the rope so you can do a partner check of both knots
3:11 Securing off 1 bolt at the anchor instead of 2 is very poor technique... why not use 2?
3:48 The quickdraw anchor. It works, but it's weird and not something I've ever seen multipitch climbers use. There are way better options available.
5:00 Doug using a static sling as a personal anchor instead of clove hitching into the rope (without explaining why that can be a bad idea)
8:12 Clipping the rope side of the quickdraw to your harness is not standard. You want to make sure the biner you clip to the hanger is always the same (hangers can cause little metal scrapes in the biner that you don't want your rope passing across)
9:45 This is an old-school belay method, belaying directly off the anchor in guide mode is preferable these days
10:51 Bobby not locking his locker attached to the anchor
11:48 Doug using a clove hitch on the next pitch but using a non locker. It's preferable to use a clove hitch instead of a personal anchor (rope is dynamic, slings are not), but use a locker!
13:40 You are passing the rope through the hanger-clipping biner of the quickdraw. Like I said above, this is not best practice.
10:57 Bobby builds a nice rope anchor 12:35 Bobby grabs gear to go climbing 13:27 Mike is climbing 14:07 Bobby is back belaying on his rope anchor. So confused on order here??
15:22 Simulclimbing is a pretty advanced topic... probably better to tell beginners to have some beta and know how long their pitches are so they don't have to simulclimb.
18:45 I like this! Nice to show a beginner's mistake!
These techniques are by no means good practice. Sure, you're probably not going to die from any one of these, but it's so easy to do things right and change a low probability of failure into zero probability.
It's also confusing as heck to jump around and show so many different techniques, systems and anchor setups. Maybe better to show one good way and just do it really well?
If the intent of this video was to show some useful tips and techniques to more novice climbers, I think you've missed the mark. I think your videos would be better with a little more structure, purpose and good technique.
So you always set up your anchor before clipping in your tether?
@@danielazbell6416 100%. Assuming bolted anchors, I always use a double length sling that I have pre-tied into a sliding X with extension stopper knots for an anchor. It takes me no more than 5 seconds to pull it off my harness and clip it to the 2 anchor bolts. My anchor setup has a big locking biner in the middle of the sliding X for a master point (a quad works well too but I find it's bulkier). I never use a PAS / personal anchor to secure myself while climbing up; instead I secure myself using the rope and a clove hitch to the master point of my anchor.
I then have a fully redundant anchor system for securing myself and belaying my partner (and for my partner to secure when they climb up to me).
By using a clove hitch with the rope it also provides some dynamic stretch if I were to take a fall on it for some reason, plus it is very adjustable.
Takes me probably 10 seconds to clip my anchor and clove in.
@@brendan714 fair, but that's personal preferance not safety. I carry an adjustable dynamic tether, and clip to one bolt so I'm in direct and then build an anchor. There's nothing wrong with either approach
@@danielazbell6416 If you're taking the time to build a redundant anchor anyway, why not secure yourself to it instead of a single bolt?
@@brendan714 becuase I want to be in direct as soon as I reach the end of the pitch, both personal comfort after a hard pitch and so that the be layer can prepare to transition while I construct the anchor. And once I've built the anchor, my tether to the one bolt or more usually in my case piece becomes redundant anyway
wasn't the redirect back clipped?
Ive got all the respect for Doug, but i don’t think i like him going in direct with a clove hitch and a non locker on a single bolt. Poor practice IMO and is too easily unclipped while operating at the belay.
The bolts are linked through at all points when someone isn't on belay, so if one were to pop then you have the redundancy. Non-locker is a bit sketchy but it's one of those things that you have to be more careful with and keep loaded.
This video is pretty misleading and a lot of the techniques used I simply cannot recommend for beginner (multi-pitch) climbers.
1) both climbers should be tied into the rope before the leader leaves the ground. This ensures that the follower also has their figure 8 safety checked by leader
2) the quickdraw anchor is an awful example and only should be used if absolutely necessary (i.e. you drop your anchor building material off the face of the climb). Use a pre-tied quad or equalized overhand master point, it can be checked by both climbers before leaving the ground (for the quad at least) and takes far less time to setup upon reaching the top of a pitch. There is an argument to be made for more creative anchor building in trad and/or alpine multi-pitch but on a bolted sport route just use a damn quad
3) pretty poor rope management at the belays. Rope that is pulled in by the belayer at the top of the pitch should be draped over the belayer’s tether so that you don’t have 30ft coils running down below you that could get snagged on terrain features or plants. Bobby does this at 11:20 but this should be standard practice for all of the climbers in the video
4) there is truly no reason to use a PAS when the leader is securing themselves to the anchor. A locker with a clove hitch is far superior for shock absorption and not to mention the length of your tether can be infinitely adjusted to best suit the given belay station
5) at 6:23 Ryan is tether into just 1 of 2 anchor bolts at the belay station. If you have 2 bolts to work with USE them! The only time tethering into a single bolt should be acceptable is emergency situations, ideally where the climber knows they will not dynamically load the tether/bolt
Just my 2 cents though. I would recommend to any beginner climbers that want to learn multi-pitch climbing please just hire a guide and take a course on multi-pitch climbing. You will learn the proper techniques in a safe environment with a knowledgeable mentor
Puh, all respect to you guys, but that way to climb multipitches is not state of the art.. hard to see you guys achieving pseudo-redundance with quickdraws...
Meets all my personal requirements for an anchor, what parts don’t you like about it?
What would you do differently? I always thought two draws was bomberish
I like how David never responded😂 troll
Socks n climbing shoes!? How NOT 2 look cool while climbing.
Algorithm comment
Lol at all the people who talking shit. Make your own video if you know so much then!
Bobby's carabiner is not locked :(
3:57 isn't that a tri loaded carabiner? If it is it severely compromises the carabiner's strength.
I disagree with all the criticism, looked safe and everyone had fun. Loving these videos with Doug!
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!! However! Multi pitch climbing is WAY simpler than all this old style, non redundant or unorganized rope work.
There were some key red flags if I ever came up on an anchor.
Bobby’s locker was unlocked for the atc while belaying his follower perhaps? Why? No point not to lock it.
A redirect on 4 class is moderate and acceptable with experience, it’s an older tactic that doesn’t really need any more addressing than if you know about it. You save a lot of time just using the anchor for organizing sake, rescue, or a swap or lead anyhow.
Why not clip into a quad or prepare for a multi pitch sport day better with appropriate anchor material? Clipping to one bolt is bomber, but not too shabby when the master point is one anchor bolt per person..
alpine or not, you should always make things efficient and easy. A lot of these systems could have at least been better. For one, the rope anchor Bobby made just clove both ends vs a figure 8. It’s more adjustable, and the master point is easier to manage with cloves.
I would also mention that a buddy check is prospect. If you don’t take it a little seriously that could be the last time you buddy check.
It’s simple.
Figure 8 Knot counts to 12 points (including both harness loops)
Harness double backed
Atc locked and loaded oriented correctly.
As an experienced climber myself and respecting your amazing videos which I watch often myself for reference.. I think this could have been cleaned up quite a bit. With respect. All y’all legends and we appreciate the work.. those of us that are experienced and have technical knowledge know the faults in this video. For the untrained eye.
Read the. Idea title and remember that.
One more comment I forgot.. you shouldn’t really say off belay until the anchor is built and your about to start pulling rope.. someone could misunderstand and yank rope (you) or worse. You could fall, off belay.
I love your videos but this video is very dangerous, it literally is a "how not to" video without joke. there are so many dangerous mistakes. I really hope you re-edit it to at least hide the open carabiners belay, the single point security on unchained anchors or the quickdraw relay. and maybe check with the local climbing association to get the latest multipitch belaying guidelines. these guidelines literaly save lives. and multipitch belaying being something you typically do alone without anyone checking you, sincerely think it's worth learning it ONE way and that way should be the current best practice. not 3 different options that might confuse newcomers. (and yes I know those bolts are super strong, but they might not always be, might as well learn to do it the right way).
tall team your binner is red hot...
This video should be titled how to multipitch without a real anchor. Good luck escaping the belay when it is your anchor. Not a bad method if you drop your anchor or forget it like these guys but less than ideal.
Along with all of the comments and criticisms here...this video will get somene killed....the end where Doug does his old skool hip belay is just another....the non braking side has to be clipped into his harness to prevent the rope from being pulled down around his butt....i have need climbing since '73...use that belay often but he needs to be showing proper use....this should be titled how to kill someone multi-pitching....( and one of the tall guys without a helmet....seriously?)
Lotta yikes going on here. Hope you aren't getting folks hurt. Should just have filmed a fun day out climbing and not pretended to make it instructional.
Massive overconfidence and complacency on display. I think this kind of laissez-faire belaying (9:30) and station building is actively harmful, especially when categorized as "educational". Don't explain things when you aren't doing things correctly. It gives a false sense of adequacy, and newbies will believe that this is safe.
Take a course people! Do not copy this stuff.